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Do we need to believe in the Trinity to be saved?

The Liturgist

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No I don't.

Forgive me for the question then; the Oneness Pentecostals are known for among other things a dogmatic opposition to baptizing according to Matthew 28:19.

It's just that I was water immersed in the name of Jesus like our apostles were instead of in accordance with some statement that has no relevance with other scripture.

I don’t see what makes you say that. Matthew 28:19 is considered more reliable as scriptural text than the Longer Ending of Mark. Furthermore, as I said, if you baptize so someone in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost you are baptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ, since He is the Son.
 
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ARBITER01

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I don’t see what makes you say that. Matthew 28:19 is considered more reliable as scriptural text than the Longer Ending of Mark. Furthermore, as I said, if you baptize so someone in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost you are baptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ, since He is the Son.

I have other things to do. I'm not interested in re-opening this back up.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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You have it backwards. The Arians, who rejected the Trinity, ruled the Roman Empire from the beginning of the reign of Emperor Constantius until the death of Emperor Valens, except during a brief interlude under the neo-Platonist Julian. During that time, the Nicene Fathers such as St. Athanasius were aggressively persecuted. Even after the Trinitarian Emperor St. Theodosius came to power, occasional persecution of Nicene Christians happened in the Roman Empire, and since Arius had spread his false gospel to the Visigoths and other Gothic tribes, as the Empire collapsed, the Trinitarians were once again brutally persecuted by the Arians, many of whom later converted to Islam: in North Africa, Visigothic converts to Islam were partially responsible for the complete genocide of the churches in what is now Tunisia, Algeria and Morrocco.
You have it backwards.


You are on a roll here....three in a row!
 
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KingdomLeast

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That is the reason for the Nicene Creed. Each line of the Creed refutes a particular heresy. It begins, "We believe in one God...". That is to counter the ancient gnostic belief in two gods, one who created invisible things such as the spirit, the other a lesser god who created all things material. The Creed continues, "the Father Almighty, Creator of all things visible and invisible...". It then continues, "And in one Lord Jesus Christ...true God of true God...".
The Nicene Creed ISN"T scripture.
 
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public hermit

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The question is if we need to believe in the Trinity to be saved?
Strictly speaking: The "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" are presented in the scriptures as the objects of saving faith. The doctrine of the Trinity (one Ousia and three Hypostases) is a doctrine, which although accepted by orthodox Xnty, cannot be an object of faith since it does not lend itself to positive cognitive content. If you can conceptualize the doctrine of the Trinity, it's not the actual Trinity you are conceptualizing. Can a non-cognitive doctrine be an object of belief? (Xn contemplative traditions would say, "Yes," but their position would only support my point) No, but it can help us get some sense of the transcendent God who is revealed as "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." So, to answer your question, salvation cannot depend on believing in the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
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Lukaris

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Well, I only accept scripture and not creeds.
Creeds are from scripture and a basic explanation of faith. They were also written when most people could not read. If they are used with general sound preaching, they are most valuable. They are also a good source to use if a person is inquiring as to what a Christian group might actually believe.
 
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dzheremi

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We need to believe in the Holy Trinity because this is how God has revealed Himself to mankind, and we do not get to choose to believe in something else just because it better suits what we are intellectually comfortable with (or whatever reason we may have for preferring some other idea of God). God does not exist according to our rational intellectual categories, and we know Him by revelation, just as surely as when He revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush, it was with the instruction that Moses remove his sandals (read: not even one as great as Moses got to approach God according to what he would have liked, and that was before our Lord's incarnation, when God was manifest in a bush!).

As we pray in the annual verses of the cymbals for Sundays, Mondays, and Tuesdays: "We worship the Holy Trinity -- Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- we, the Christian people, for He is our God in truth." In other words, this marks us distinctively as Christians, rather than anything else, in keeping with our assertion -- following the example of our father and master St. Paul the apostle, as well as many, many others -- that the God who is unknown to those worshippers of other religions (as other religions do not know the one true God) is, in fact, known to us. This is not ego or narcissism speaking, either, because again, it is all about how God has revealed Himself to us. It is nothing that we have devised on our own, absent that revelation as is present over and over in scripture (e.g., at the Annunciation, the Epiphany, the Transfiguration, etc.) and in the wider life of the Church for 2000 years and counting.
 
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public hermit

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We need to believe in the Holy Trinity because this is how God has revealed Himself to mankind, and we do not get to choose to believe in something else just because it better suits what we are intellectually comfortable with (or whatever reason we may have for preferring some other idea of God). God does not exist according to our rational intellectual categories, and we know Him by revelation, just as surely as when He revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush, it was with the instruction that Moses remove his sandals (read: not even one as great as Moses got to approach God according to what he would have liked, and that was before our Lord's incarnation, when God was manifest in a bush!).

As we pray in the annual verses of the cymbals for Sundays, Mondays, and Tuesdays: "We worship the Holy Trinity -- Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- we, the Christian people, for He is our God in truth." In other words, this marks us distinctively as Christians, rather than anything else, in keeping with our assertion -- following the example of our father and master St. Paul the apostle, as well as many, many others -- that the God who is unknown to those worshippers of other religions (as other religions do not know the one true God) is, in fact, known to us. This is not ego or narcissism speaking, either, because again, it is all about how God has revealed Himself to us. It is nothing that we have devised on our own, absent that revelation as is present over and over in scripture (e.g., at the Annunciation, the Epiphany, the Transfiguration, etc.) and in the wider life of the Church for 2000 years and counting.

Is it necessary to believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Or, is it necessary to believe in the official doctrine of the Trinity as secured by ancient councils? I assume those are not identical (I should say, for those who believed prior to the councils). Nonethless, let's assume salvation depends on belief in the doctrine as defined by the councils. If those who preceeded the doctrine did not believe it (because they did not know it) , then are they saved? And if so, how?
 
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ARBITER01

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Is it necessary to believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Or, is it necessary to believe in the official doctrine of the Trinity as secured by ancient councils?

Neither, it is only necessary to believe in Jesus for salvation/deliverance.

The understanding of the triune nature of our GOD is only necessary later on for prayer, so we know who and how to address GOD in our petitions and relationship with Him, and the basis for proper scriptural understanding.
 
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public hermit

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Neither, it is only necessary to believe in Jesus for salvation/deliverance.

The understanding of the triune nature of our GOD is only necessary later on for prayer, so we know who and how to address GOD in our petitions and relationship with Him, and the basis for proper scriptural understanding.

That's an interesting take, but I am still curious about those who believed in Father, Son and Spirit prior to councils. I just don't think it makes sense that one must believe the official doctrine to be saved because 1) that eliminates those who came before, and 2) it eliminates those whose cognitive concepts are inadequate to the reality expressed by the doctrine ( which includes everyone). To argue salvation depends on belief in the doctrine is way too stringent.
 
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Lukaris

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If we do not know God as the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit as the Lord reveals in John 14, 15, & 16, then how are we saved? Is the resurrection also optional as opposed to what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:13-18? There are allowances for individuals who are faithful but haven’t heard or understand everything but otherwise we are to hold to our profession of faith ( Hebrews 10:23-29 etc.).

The King James is best in translation of the Hebrews that I have linked above.

 
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dzheremi

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Is it necessary to believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Or, is it necessary to believe in the official doctrine of the Trinity as secured by ancient councils? I assume those are not identical (I should say, for those who believed prior to the councils). Nonethless, let's assume salvation depends on belief in the doctrine as defined by the councils. If those who preceeded the doctrine did not believe it (because they did not know it) , then are they saved? And if so, how?

It is fundamental to belief in the councils to understand that they were not called to devise 'official doctrine' in scare quotes, but rather to deal with specific heresies that were against the faith already held by the Church. For sure, over time they became 'official doctrine' in a way, as (e.g.) the Nicene position won out over that of the Arians (but note how long that took), but if they never had, the doctrines that they formalized would still be what was preached in the orthodox churches. This is how we can read and understand preconciliar fathers such as St. Gregory the Wonderworker, St. Justin Martyr, etc. as still teaching in conformity with the faith, to the extent that they do (NB: St. Justin believed in the preexistence of matter, which is a position that is condemned), without of course their formally having assented to Nicaea, let alone Constantinople or Ephesus (or even later councils, for the Chalcedonians).

If it helps, this is somewhat similar to how we may look at the Biblical canon: Outside of the Christian West (where it was defined largely as a result of/as a reaction to the Protestant reformation, which is uniquely western in its origins and grievances), it took a very long time for the Biblical canon to be settled in the exact form in which the wider Christian world would recognize it. The Book of Revelations/the Apocalypse of St. John (without a doubt the most controversial of the NT books) does not appear in the canon of the Syriac Church, for instance, until 616 AD, in the Syriac version compiled by St. Thomas of Harqel (a.k.a. the Harklean version). Does that mean that centuries upon centuries of Syriac Christians from before 616 AD are condemned for having learned the faith from "incomplete" Bibles? I wouldn't say so, as it's not like the faith therefore didn't exist before 616 AD.

Or perhaps even better, as it concerns the Holy Trinity most directly, the (in)famous Johannine Comma (found in John 5:7-8 in the Latin manuscript tradition, and only in Greek manuscripts starting in the 14th century) is completely absent from the Ethiopic, Syriac, Arabic, and Georgian manuscript traditions (and only present in Armenian manuscripts starting in the 12th century). This statement, and whether or not it is to be viewed as authentic or not, has been the source of a lot of ink spilled over the centuries in the context of debates about the Holy Trinity, particularly between Protestants and Catholics. We should ask ourselves, though, how much it can really matter outside of that specific debate if all of these other traditions, which represent some of the earliest peoples to become Christian in the entire world (Armenia being the first Christian nation, and Georgia the third; the Arabs being mentioned in the scriptures as one of the specific peoples present on the day of Pentecost, etc.) have been able to not just express their Christianity, but specifically their strong and orthodox Trinitarianism, without having to worry about that statement at all, or perhaps without even being aware of it in the first place (as again, it has never been present in the majority of them).

Speaking only for myself, I think we can look at questions like yours similarly, as obviously there is a difference between born into the post-conciliar world as we are and living and departing all before 325 AD. It would be foolish to pretend that there wouldn't be, because doing so would essentially treat the councils as though they are optional or of little importance, which is not in keeping with how any form of traditional Christianity believes and behaves. That difference, though, is not to be thought of as a kind of quasi-academic theology quiz, whereby if you don't say the correct phrasing using all the proper words that we now use, you're out. No. But recall from the above examples how it is that people can be completely formed within the bosom of the Church, taking on the mind of the Church, and professing the faith of the Church in any particular era. This extends both into the ancient past and into the far future, as the faith itself is eternal.

To wrap it up, I like to think about questions like this by remembering that my particular church is now and for the majority of its life always has been primarily a church of largely illiterate peasant farmers in Upper Egypt. I don't mean to romanticize being the Egyptian version of a country bumpkin, but it is important to remember for me because otherwise it is far too easy, since I don't come from that environment myself, to wall myself up in my room with my translations of St. Macarius, St. Shenouda, St. Samuel of Kalamun, etc., etc. and think that by learning a lot of 'stuff', I'm becoming a better Christian. I'm certainly not anti-learning, but it bears repeating that that's not true, or at least not self-evidently so. You can learn a lot or you can learn a little, but what you experience is what will ultimately drive you. I can't know for sure if the illiterate farmer who goes to his nearest monastery for Holy Week celebrations in Egypt knows the ins and outs of Christological or other Theological debates that have happened throughout all 2000 years of our faith, but I can know that when we pray together "We believe in One God, God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth...", we are affirming the same faith that we all experience together, and have for 2,000 years (even though the Creed itself was obviously not written 2,000 years ago).
 
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public hermit

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It is fundamental to belief in the councils to understand that they were not called to devise 'official doctrine' in scare quotes, but rather to deal with specific heresies that were against the faith already held by the Church. For sure, over time they became 'official doctrine' in a way, as (e.g.) the Nicene position won out over that of the Arians (but note how long that took), but if they never had, the doctrines that they formalized would still be what was preached in the orthodox churches. This is how we can read and understand preconciliar fathers such as St. Gregory the Wonderworker, St. Justin Martyr, etc. as still teaching in conformity with the faith, to the extent that they do (NB: St. Justin believed in the preexistence of matter, which is a position that is condemned), without of course their formally having assented to Nicaea, let alone Constantinople or Ephesus (or even later councils, for the Chalcedonians).

If it helps, this is somewhat similar to how we may look at the Biblical canon: Outside of the Christian West (where it was defined largely as a result of/as a reaction to the Protestant reformation, which is uniquely western in its origins and grievances), it took a very long time for the Biblical canon to be settled in the exact form in which the wider Christian world would recognize it. The Book of Revelations/the Apocalypse of St. John (without a doubt the most controversial of the NT books) does not appear in the canon of the Syriac Church, for instance, until 616 AD, in the Syriac version compiled by St. Thomas of Harqel (a.k.a. the Harklean version). Does that mean that centuries upon centuries of Syriac Christians from before 616 AD are condemned for having learned the faith from "incomplete" Bibles? I wouldn't say so, as it's not like the faith therefore didn't exist before 616 AD.

Or perhaps even better, as it concerns the Holy Trinity most directly, the (in)famous Johannine Comma (found in John 5:7-8 in the Latin manuscript tradition, and only in Greek manuscripts starting in the 14th century) is completely absent from the Ethiopic, Syriac, Arabic, and Georgian manuscript traditions (and only present in Armenian manuscripts starting in the 12th century). This statement, and whether or not it is to be viewed as authentic or not, has been the source of a lot of ink spilled over the centuries in the context of debates about the Holy Trinity, particularly between Protestants and Catholics. We should ask ourselves, though, how much it can really matter outside of that specific debate if all of these other traditions, which represent some of the earliest peoples to become Christian in the entire world (Armenia being the first Christian nation, and Georgia the third; the Arabs being mentioned in the scriptures as one of the specific peoples present on the day of Pentecost, etc.) have been able to not just express their Christianity, but specifically their strong and orthodox Trinitarianism, without having to worry about that statement at all, or perhaps without even being aware of it in the first place (as again, it has never been present in the majority of them).

Speaking only for myself, I think we can look at questions like yours similarly, as obviously there is a difference between born into the post-conciliar world as we are and living and departing all before 325 AD. It would be foolish to pretend that there wouldn't be, because doing so would essentially treat the councils as though they are optional or of little importance, which is not in keeping with how any form of traditional Christianity believes and behaves. That difference, though, is not to be thought of as a kind of quasi-academic theology quiz, whereby if you don't say the correct phrasing using all the proper words that we now use, you're out. No. But recall from the above examples how it is that people can be completely formed within the bosom of the Church, taking on the mind of the Church, and professing the faith of the Church in any particular era. This extends both into the ancient past and into the far future, as the faith itself is eternal.

To wrap it up, I like to think about questions like this by remembering that my particular church is now and for the majority of its life always has been primarily a church of largely illiterate peasant farmers in Upper Egypt. I don't mean to romanticize being the Egyptian version of a country bumpkin, but it is important to remember for me because otherwise it is far too easy, since I don't come from that environment myself, to wall myself up in my room with my translations of St. Macarius, St. Shenouda, St. Samuel of Kalamun, etc., etc. and think that by learning a lot of 'stuff', I'm becoming a better Christian. I'm certainly not anti-learning, but it bears repeating that that's not true, or at least not self-evidently so. You can learn a lot or you can learn a little, but what you experience is what will ultimately drive you. I can't know for sure if the illiterate farmer who goes to his nearest monastery for Holy Week celebrations in Egypt knows the ins and outs of Christological or other Theological debates that have happened throughout all 2000 years of our faith, but I can know that when we pray together "We believe in One God, God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth...", we are affirming the same faith that we all experience together, and have for 2,000 years (even though the Creed itself was obviously not written 2,000 years ago).

I'm on board as regards experience, and I owe an eternal debt to those who taught prayer, Evagrius and St. Hesychios, who are so helpful for me.

I accept from Nyssa the idea that our experience of God has a trajectory (with a beginning) and progresses for eternity. The doctrine of the Trinity is the clearest expression of God to us, and in its expression it falls short of the reality. That must be the case. This means no matter how far we have abided in love, we can go farther.

The negation of heresy simply gave us boundaries. It didn't give us positive, cognitive content. Three persons identical with one essence is not a concept with which we have commerce. It's beautiful and stretches our best efforts. But, it's sui generis so that the conditions for understanding do not obtain (nothing with which to compare). What, then, is being believed, known, and worshiped: our concept or the unknown reality behind our idea? It can't be the idea. The reality is not less than the concept, but it definitely transcends it.
 
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dzheremi

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I think I can appreciate where you're coming from here, my friend, but I guess I don't see why it is particular to our belief in the Holy Trinity, as with all things regarding God, His thoughts and ways are far above our own. That's why I've tried to emphasize that it is God's revelation of Himself to us. Does that necessarily mean that it is God as He is known in Himself? I honestly can't say, as we have no way to know that, since we are not God. But we can know, and we do know, with all the fathers (pre- and post-conciliar) bearing witness, what He has revealed to us, most clearly (i.e., not in archetype or shadow, but in body) in the coming of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
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public hermit

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I think I can appreciate where you're coming from here, my friend, but I guess I don't see why it is particular to our belief in the Holy Trinity, as with all things regarding God, His thoughts and ways are far above our own. That's why I've tried to emphasize that it is God's revelation of Himself to us. Does that necessarily mean that it is God as He is known in Himself? I honestly can't say, as we have no way to know that, since we are not God. But we can know, and we do know, with all the fathers (pre- and post-conciliar) bearing witness, what He has revealed to us, most clearly (i.e., not in archetype or shadow, but in body) in the coming of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

Yeah, this could very well be a weird obsession of mine. When we say we believe in the Trunity, do we mean we have an adequate cognition of the object of belief? A distinction without a difference? Perhaps it is in the important respects. And, it should be acknowledged thatI have been known to carry on about nothing! :D
 
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