Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Doug Brents]

actually yes it is, A lack of changed life is evidence of no salvation. see james 2

The truth of the negative does not prove the positive.
Matt 7:21ff is very clear that there will be many at Judgement that have "changed lives" but are not saved; God never even knew them.

I am saved by grace through faith period.. Not of works.. lest I should boast.

What did Naaman boast about? Did he boast about the cleansing power of Jordan? Or did he boast about the cleansing power of God who told him to dip seven times and he dipped seven times and was healed?

No. the word baptize has absolutely nothing to do with the word repent. language rules forbid this.

Sorry, but it does. Each of you repent and all of those who repent be baptized. Being baptized without repentance is meaningless. It won't do any good to be baptized if you don't repent.

And he did not say they must be baptized. He pleaded with them to be baptized.

Yes, because the result of repenting and being baptized is the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

No. again, the rules of language rejects this definition It does not work in the english or the greek

again, And peter told them, repent, and let every one ot THEM be baptized.

Every one of them who? Them who repent.

lol. Hey, again, you want to boast in your baptism as the jew boasted in his circumcision. feel free.

I was circumcized and baptized by the hand of God. (col 2) with the spiritual baptism by the spirit who raised him from the dead

If you were not baptized in water, then you have not been baptized into Christ (John 3:5), and therefore are not in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He is. He could have set it up so we receive salvation by walking under a tree (He was crucified on a tree, after all). But that is not how He set it up. He says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized (in water, 1 Pet 3:21) will be saved. Everyone else is already condemned.

Well he could have but he did not.

He said in the cross. It is finished.. it is done. all we need to do is look to him in faith and we are saved.

now those who trust him will work, they will get baptized. they will be doers of the word not hearers only. they will change.

But non of those works had any part of their salvation

No, it is accepting the limits God placed on His blessing.

God places on limit. trust in him.. Once we are born again, and made his children by reviving him (john 1) then we are blessed when we do.

the wage of sin is death. Only death can free us from that wage. not works.

They were baptized "and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor 10:2). We are baptized into Christ in water.

No. lol wow man, again I am laughing.

they were baptized in Moses. through Moses the cloud and sea directed their way.

we are baptized into Christ. through Christ the HS directs our way..

what church do you go to?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was baptized by the Lord nearly seven years before I was ever able to be baptized by water.
But I do believe we should be baptized in water as well as the Lord was and many whom were baptized by the holy spirit of God were seen being baptized by water as well.
These things we do because the Lord did them.
I know the theif on the cross wasn't baptized by water
Though he couldn't as he was nailed to a cross alongside the Lord when his eyes were opened to the truth of who Jesus was.
So I say in every instance baptism by water as is exampled in scripture isn't possible though unless your unable to in such a way as the theif was...i.e your last moments of life...then you should indeed be baptized in water.
Because the Lord is our example.
Its not the world.

Our water baptism is a ceremony. A ceremony of a brother or sister who has been saved and adopted as Gods child.

It is also a testimony, a testimony to those who are lost, and a wonderful way to share the gospel.

many people have come to christ in these baptism ceremonies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes.

No. He said that He won't. John 3:5

there is no baptism in john 3. Where do you get the word baptism? When Jesus told nicodemus HOW to be born again, not one mention of baptism, ever.

its odd that Jesus left that part out of the equation when he answered nicodemus question

Absolutely not.

This is not about whether or not baptism should be done. All of us here agree (I think they all do) that baptism is absolutely a command (Matt 28:19). What we are debating is whether we are saved before we are baptized, or during baptism. I think Scripture is clear that we are saved during baptism.

baptism is a command, so is assembling together. so is taking communion, so is learnign to love as he loved.

but these are result of our salvation. not part of being saved

 

[Doug Brents]

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No water baptism is involved.

Cherry picking verses and saying, "Oops, no water here" does not prove anything. All Scripture must be true all at the same time. Mark 16:16 says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Those who don't believe the Gospel are already condemned, so it doesn't matter what else they might do or think.

lol.. So how many times does one need baptized?? You making me laugh my friend.

Only once. Once you are "in Christ" then you remain in Him by walking in the Light for the rest of your life, and the blood of Jesus continually cleanses you from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Just teach John.

As moses lifted the serpent. so must the son of man be lifted. that whoever believes (soo. he did not say and is baptised) will never perish but live forever.

Did the people who were bitten by the serpents just have to believe in the serpent on the staff Moses lifted up? No. They had to look at the staff to be cured.

Go back to moses. The people that looked at the serpent trusted God. and in this faith, they looked at what could save them.

no different today. Those who trust God look to the cross.

Correct, there is no difference today. If we do what God said LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving His blessing, we will receive His blessing. If we do not do what He says, then we do not receive His blessing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is one gospel, certainly. But what is faith without action?

it is no faith at all.

like I always say, if you claim you trust someone (have true faith) but never do anythign they ask. You probably do not really trust them, your faith is dead)

Baptism isn't a work, it's not something we do to earn God's favor. It's faith in action, as to have faith is to trust that what the Lord commands is truly salvific.

If your being baptized to get saved, your trying to earn Gods favor

if you getting baptized because he saved you, and you trust him, and want to obey him, then your not earning Gods favor. you have already received it

water baptism is one of many commands God has given us, it is no more salvic than any of the other commands.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The truth of the negative does not prove the positive.
Matt 7:21ff is very clear that there will be many at Judgement that have "changed lives" but are not saved; God never even knew them.

funny how you use all these passages that support my view as if they support you.

James 2 supports that a changed life does show true faith.

Matt 7 is a charge against people like you that think because you did some works. your saved. Jesus told them flat out. he never knew them..

What did Naaman boast about? Did he boast about the cleansing power of Jordan? Or did he boast about the cleansing power of God who told him to dip seven times and he dipped seven times and was healed?

Sorry, but it does. Each of you repent and all of those who repent be baptized. Being baptized without repentance is meaningless. It won't do any good to be baptized if you don't repent.

Yes, because the result of repenting and being baptized is the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Every one of them who? Them who repent.

If you were not baptized in water, then you have not been baptized into Christ (John 3:5), and therefore are not in the Kingdom of God.

sorry bud, I am not worried about Nathan. I am worried about what Jesus said.

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6 John 7. not one mention of water baptism. Because it is not required.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well he could have but he did not.

He said in the cross. It is finished.. it is done. all we need to do is look to him in faith and we are saved.

What does it mean to "look to Him in faith"? It means to do what He says.

now those who trust him will work, they will get baptized. they will be doers of the word not hearers only. they will change.

But non of those works had any part of their salvation

Read Rom 10:9-10. What does it say? It says that confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth (absolutely a physical action) RESULTS IN receiving salvation. This is Scripture, it is God's Word to us. This physical action MUST come before salvation is received, because the result can never come before the thing that causes the result.

God places on limit. trust in him.. Once we are born again, and made his children by reviving him (john 1) then we are blessed when we do.

When do we become children of God? When we are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27).

the wage of sin is death. Only death can free us from that wage. not works.

Jesus' death did free those who are "in Him" from the wage we had earned. But His death does not cover those who are not "in Him". And the only way to be "in Him" is to be baptized "into Him."

No. lol wow man, again I am laughing.

they were baptized in Moses. through Moses the cloud and sea directed their way.

I did not paraphrase Scripture as you are here. I quoted Scripture directly. "...And they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea". You want to change what Scripture says?

we are baptized into Christ. through Christ the HS directs our way..

We are baptized into Christ through water during which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us to the death and resurrection of Jesus (John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21).

what church do you go to?

I am a member of God's Church. I find it meaningless to state a "Church name" because all the names of the Church given in Scripture (the Church of Christ, the Way, the Church of God, etc.) have all been taken by one cult or another. So people jump to conclusions about what I believe if I say any of those names. I worship with three different congregations, none of which believe the truth about what is required to receive salvation. But there are no congregations in my area that teach the truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Cherry picking verses and saying, "Oops, no water here" does not prove anything. All Scripture must be true all at the same time.

I did not chery pick a verse. You used john 3. and I took you to John 3. No mention of water baptism anywhere in john 3.

Mark 16:16 says that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved. Those who don't believe the Gospel are already condemned, so it doesn't matter what else they might do or think.

Jesus did not contradict himself in mark. and add a word

there are only 2 possibilities. the baptism he spoke of is spirit baptism, which saved.

or, as many believe, mark 16: 16 and beyond is not scripture it was added later. I mean, believers are killed by poison and snakes all the time.. so those verses can not be true..

But believe what you want

Only once. Once you are "in Christ" then you remain in Him by walking in the Light for the rest of your life, and the blood of Jesus continually cleanses you from all sin (1 John 1:7).

so you get saved, then must walk. or you will lose salvation.

Where is Christ in your belief system? Why do you focus on self so much?

Did the people who were bitten by the serpents just have to believe in the serpent on the staff Moses lifted up? No. They had to look at the staff to be cured.

They looked because they had faith.

Just like 40 some years ago. I looked to the cross. because I had faith. and said yes lord. i want your gift.

Correct, there is no difference today. If we do what God said LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving His blessing, we will receive His blessing. If we do not do what He says, then we do not receive His blessing.

But if you do what he says thinking that will save you. you will still be lost in your sin. because you have failed to repent. your still trusting in your good deeds. not the work of Christ

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What does it mean to "look to Him in faith"? It means to do what He says.

do you do everything he says, or do you still sin,. are you perfect?

If you still sin, is that because your faith is dead?

I did what he said, I looked to the cross. and he saved me,

since them I have been trying to become more like him. I continue to run the race.

Read Rom 10:9-10. What does it say? It says that confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth (absolutely a physical action) RESULTS IN receiving salvation. This is Scripture, it is God's Word to us. This physical action MUST come before salvation is received, because the result can never come before the thing that causes the result.

Actually I said it in my mind.. and he saved me

but notice. no water baptism in romans 10.. why? Because its not required

When do we become children of God? When we are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27).

Yes. And God is the one who baptized us into christ. Not some pastor. and no water is involved.

Jesus' death did free those who are "in Him" from the wage we had earned. But His death does not cover those who are not "in Him". And the only way to be "in Him" is to be baptized "into Him."

yes. This is done by God. not your pastor.

I did not paraphrase Scripture as you are here. I quoted Scripture directly. "...And they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea". You want to change what Scripture says?

yawn..

We are baptized into Christ through water during which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us to the death and resurrection of Jesus (John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21).

No water baptism in john 3
No water baptism in romans 6
No water baptism in col 2
Peter 3 says that water baptism is a type of that which saved noah. not the removal of the filth of the flesh. It does not remove sin from the soul..

try again

I am a member of God's Church. I find it meaningless to state a "Church name" because all the names of the Church given in Scripture (the Church of Christ, the Way, the Church of God, etc.) have all been taken by one cult or another. So people jump to conclusions about what I believe if I say any of those names. I worship with three different congregations, none of which believe the truth about what is required to receive salvation. But there are no congregations in my area that teach the truth.

If you were a member of Gods church, you would teach the words of God..

You would not teach like a modern day jew who replaces circumcision with baptism, and say that must be done.

 

[Doug Brents]

funny how you use all these passages that support my view as if they support you.

That is because you are misinterpreting them.

James 2 supports that a changed life does show true faith.

Yes, it does, but the fact of a changed life does not always demonstrate salvation. There will be many who think they are saved, and who had a changed life, but God will tell them, "I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of evil."

Matt 7 is a charge against people like you that think because you did some works. your saved. Jesus told them flat out. he never knew them..

No. It is a charge against those who do not obey Him.

sorry bud, I am not worried about Nathan. I am worried about what Jesus said.

Who said anything about Nathan?

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6 John 7. not one mention of water baptism. Because it is not required.

John 3:5 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

I did not chery pick a verse. You used john 3. and I took you to John 3. No mention of water baptism anywhere in john 3.

Read it again.

Jesus did not contradict himself in mark. and add a word

there are only 2 possibilities. the baptism he spoke of is spirit baptism, which saved.

or, as many believe, mark 16: 16 and beyond is not scripture it was added later. I mean, believers are killed by poison and snakes all the time.. so those verses can not be true..

But believe what you want

So you are saying that Peter is also fake? 1 Pet 3:21 says clearly that baptism in water (like the Flood that was a foreshadowing of baptism) saves us through our faith. Or are you saying that Acts is false Scripture? Acts 2:38 says clearly that we must repent and be baptized (same baptism as in 1 Pet 3) in order to receive forgiveness of sins. Eph 4:5-6 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church (but then, that is probably fake too).

so you get saved, then must walk. or you will lose salvation.

Certainly. There are hordes of Scriptures that warn us not to fall away. In fact, there must be a great falling away before the Lord comes again (2 Thes 2:3).

Where is Christ in your belief system? Why do you focus on self so much?

Christ is the heart of faith. If it weren't for Christ, there would be no hope of salvation to begin with. But He has already done His part. It is now left to each individual to either surrender to His will, or continue to live completely for self. Surrender to God's will is demonstrated in repentance from sin (Acts 2:38, 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and immersion in water (baptism)(Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, John 3:5, etc.).

They looked because they had faith.

But if they did not look they remained poisoned. It took both belief and the action of looking.

Just like 40 some years ago. I looked to the cross. because I had faith. and said yes lord. i want your gift.

But if you do what he says thinking that will save you. you will still be lost in your sin. because you have failed to repent. your still trusting in your good deeds. not the work of Christ

The actions that God commands that He says LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving His gift of salvation are not "good deeds". They do not merit the life of God's Son, and they never could. But without them, His blessing is not received.

do you do everything he says, or do you still sin,. are you perfect?

Certainly I still sin. I do not claim to be perfect in myself. But I trust that because God has said that if I walk in the Light with Jesus that He will cleanse my sins from me continually, and I will be accounted as perfect just as Jesus was perfect. Because He was accounted as sinful in my place.

If you still sin, is that because your faith is dead?

Not at all. Paul continued to sin (Rom 7:14-25). We know that Peter sinned (Gal 2:11-14). Further sin after salvation does not mean that faith is dead. It means that Satan is still the ruler of this world, and he is continually trying to win back those who he has lost to Christ.

I did what he said, I looked to the cross. and he saved me,

since them I have been trying to become more like him. I continue to run the race.

Actually I said it in my mind.. and he saved me

but notice. no water baptism in romans 10.. why? Because its not required

Yes. And God is the one who baptized us into christ. Not some pastor. and no water is involved.

Did Jesus tell the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would baptize their disciples? No. In Matt 28:19, He told them to go and baptize their new disciples. And what was the purpose of that baptism? Mark 16:16, which is the parallel verse to Matt 28:19 says that the baptism we perform results in the disciples' salvation. And this mirrors what Peter said in 1 Pet 3:21, and is the same baptism mentioned in Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, and others.

yawn..

lol

No water baptism in john 3
No water baptism in romans 6
No water baptism in col 2
Peter 3 says that water baptism is a type of that which saved noah. not the removal of the filth of the flesh. It does not remove sin from the soul..

As I stated a couple of lines ago, there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6). And that one baptism, the one in and by which we are saved, requires water (1 Pet 3:21), and is done by the teacher (Matt 28:19) to the student (Acts 2:38). That is the one baptism that is mentioned in John 3, Rom 6, Col 2, etc.
1 Pet 3 says that baptism is the reality that the Flood was the precursor of (the antitype), and that it is not for the cleansing of our flesh (dirt from the body), but is so that we may receive a new, clean conscience from the Holy Spirit through our faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

If you were a member of Gods church, you would teach the words of God..

You would not teach like a modern day jew who replaces circumcision with baptism, and say that must be done.

I teach what God teaches in His Word. Many have tried to show me that He is not teaching this, but they have failed to correctly apply ALL Scripture, preferring instead to cherry-pick certain verses that say what they want to hear and ignoring those passages that put the lie to their preconceptions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is because you are misinterpreting them.

Actually you are

Yes, it does, but the fact of a changed life does not always demonstrate salvation. There will be many who think they are saved, and who had a changed life, but God will tell them, "I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of evil."

Your right, But if I was not saved, i would nto have a changed life.. next....

No. It is a charge against those who do not obey Him.

Why are you not obeying him?

Who said anything about Nathan?

John 3:5 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Read it again.

I have read it a million times. and no where in john 3 is the word baptize used.

so why do you insist it is there?

So you are saying that Peter is also fake? 1 Pet 3:21 says clearly that baptism in water (like the Flood that was a foreshadowing of baptism) saves us through our faith. Or are you saying that Acts is false Scripture? Acts 2:38 says clearly that we must repent and be baptized (same baptism as in 1 Pet 3) in order to receive forgiveness of sins. Eph 4:5-6 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church (but then, that is probably fake too).

No peter was not a fake. He heard jesus words in John 3 also. He knew the gospel.

One day I pray you will also

Certainly. There are hordes of Scriptures that warn us not to fall away. In fact, there must be a great falling away before the Lord comes again (2 Thes 2:3).

Christ is the heart of faith. If it weren't for Christ, there would be no hope of salvation to begin with. But He has already done His part. It is now left to each individual to either surrender to His will, or continue to live completely for self. Surrender to God's will is demonstrated in repentance from sin (Acts 2:38, 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and immersion in water (baptism)(Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, John 3:5, etc.).

But if they did not look they remained poisoned. It took both belief and the action of looking.

The actions that God commands that He says LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving His gift of salvation are not "good deeds". They do not merit the life of God's Son, and they never could. But without them, His blessing is not received.

Certainly I still sin. I do not claim to be perfect in myself. But I trust that because God has said that if I walk in the Light with Jesus that He will cleanse my sins from me continually, and I will be accounted as perfect just as Jesus was perfect. Because He was accounted as sinful in my place.

Not at all. Paul continued to sin (Rom 7:14-25). We know that Peter sinned (Gal 2:11-14). Further sin after salvation does not mean that faith is dead. It means that Satan is still the ruler of this world, and he is continually trying to win back those who he has lost to Christ.

Did Jesus tell the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would baptize their disciples? No. In Matt 28:19, He told them to go and baptize their new disciples. And what was the purpose of that baptism? Mark 16:16, which is the parallel verse to Matt 28:19 says that the baptism we perform results in the disciples' salvation. And this mirrors what Peter said in 1 Pet 3:21, and is the same baptism mentioned in Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, and others.

lol

As I stated a couple of lines ago, there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6). And that one baptism, the one in and by which we are saved, requires water (1 Pet 3:21), and is done by the teacher (Matt 28:19) to the student (Acts 2:38). That is the one baptism that is mentioned in John 3, Rom 6, Col 2, etc.
1 Pet 3 says that baptism is the reality that the Flood was the precursor of (the antitype), and that it is not for the cleansing of our flesh (dirt from the body), but is so that we may receive a new, clean conscience from the Holy Spirit through our faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

I teach what God teaches in His Word. Many have tried to show me that He is not teaching this, but they have failed to correctly apply ALL Scripture, preferring instead to cherry-pick certain verses that say what they want to hear and ignoring those passages that put the lie to their preconceptions.

so not only do you believe in a works based self righteous gospel. you think you can lost a salvation which is by grace.

Gods requirement is perfection. the jews could not even live up to Gods standard. and you think you can?

Good luck!

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually you are

Your right, But if I was not saved, i would nto have a changed life.. next....

You changed your life, but you didn't obey the one who you say is your Lord. If you didn't obey Him, then He really isn't your Lord.

Why are you not obeying him?

I have read it a million times. and no where in john 3 is the word baptize used.

Never said it used the word baptize. But the reference to water here, in connection with being born again, is a reference to what the rest of NT Scripture says is the point at which we become saved/born again: water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, etc.).

No peter was not a fake. He heard jesus words in John 3 also. He knew the gospel.

He heard no only the words of Jesus in the flesh, but he also heard the words that the Holy Spirit breathed into him for him to write, which have become part of the Bible that we call God's Word. And through Peter, God says that today we are saved from our sin through baptism in water.

One day I pray you will also

so not only do you believe in a works based self righteous gospel. you think you can lost a salvation which is by grace.

Absolutely you can fall from grace (James 5:19-20).

Gods requirement is perfection. the jews could not even live up to Gods standard. and you think you can?

Most certainly I cannot live up to God's standard. That is why I rely on my faith in Jesus, who said that if I have faith/trust in Him, that He will take my sins away and give me His righteousness. And just as He took away Naaman's leprosy and knocked down the walls of Jericho because those people did what He told them to do, I believe He will take my sins away because I have done what He told me to do. You should too; it is truly freeing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You changed your life,

No, God changed my life..

but you didn't obey the one who you say is your Lord. If you didn't obey Him, then He really isn't your Lord.

I did obey him, and I have since then, only I am not perfect.. if thats what you mean

Never said it used the word baptize. But the reference to water here, in connection with being born again, is a reference to what the rest of NT Scripture says is the point at which we become saved/born again: water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, etc.).

No it is not.

once again, Nicodemus asked.

How can these things be? He asked jesus to explain what being born of water and spirit means and what it means to be born again,.

Nicodemus asked..

John 3:
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

Jesus answered..

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1

you see, Jesus made it clear.
1. God did not send the son to condemn the world
2. He was sent so that the world may be saved
3. How is the world saved?

1. Look to the cross
2. Believe (faith) in him

no water baptism, no work. Christ completed the work on the cross. Like moses completed the work on the serpent.

sorry bro. But you have been misinformed as to what water means (that which is flesh is flesh) is your water. Not baptism

He heard no only the words of Jesus in the flesh, but he also heard the words that the Holy Spirit breathed into him for him to write, which have become part of the Bible that we call God's Word. And through Peter, God says that today we are saved from our sin through baptism in water.

Absolutely you can fall from grace (James 5:19-20).

Yes, You can have the thing that can save you in your hands, and not act on it. and fall from it. and never get saved.

You can not fall away after you have been saved.

Grace is not earned, if you have to earn it to keep it. it is not grace

Most certainly I cannot live up to God's standard.

Then you can not fall away.. Because you can never live up. and must 100% rely on grace..,

That is why I rely on my faith in Jesus, who said that if I have faith/trust in Him, that He will take my sins away and give me His righteousness. And just as He took away Naaman's leprosy and knocked down the walls of Jericho because those people did what He told them to do, I believe He will take my sins away because I have done what He told me to do. You should too; it is truly freeing.

But your trying to work to keep it. and not relying on Christ. your faith is in self. Not God.

I pray seriously you see this flaw

 

[Danthemailman]

You don't have to have said it explicitly. It is the context of what you are saying. We don't have to do anything, just believe. But that is not what Scripture says.

I shared the difference with you between mere "mental assent" belief (James 2:19) and saving belief in Christ (Acts 16:31) which the latter also includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Scripture makes it clear that salvation is a free gift received through faith (apart from works) and that is not hard to understand. (Romans 4:5-6; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) It's just hard for you to accept. You want to DO something to help save yourself instead of trusting exclusively in what Jesus has already DONE to save you. You trust in works (at least in part) to save you. I trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. That is the huge difference between us.

The difference is that the demons do not take action on that belief. They refuse (or are incapable of) to submit to God's authority.

That is because their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. You seem to believe that ALL belief/faith is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

We, on the other hand, are capable and are called to submit to His authority and commands. He says that salvation is received when we are baptized in water (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7).

That's not what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). In regard to 1 Peter 3:21 and Romans 6:1-7, your eisegesis does not negate those passages of Scripture in the book of John. You need to learn how to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture.

I already thoroughly covered 1 Peter 3:21 and Romans 6:1-7 with you and refuted your arguments in post #357.

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

When one stands God on Judgment Day, will God ask, "Were you baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?" Will you be confident when replying, "Lord, I did not get baptized because I was not sure how to do it correctly and if it mattered for salvation." this just...

www.christianforums.com

It is in the action of being baptized that our sins are removed (Acts 22:16), just as it was in the action of dipping the seventh time that Naaman's leprosy was removed.

False and Naaman's leprosy was not about sins being removed so your argument is moot. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (vs 15), although the apostle had not yet been water baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15) and such a commission is not for one who is still lost in their sins. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO.

So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

*Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Acts 22:16 does not establish baptismal regeneration. The verse itself demonstrates that the “washing away” of sins in baptism mentioned is representative and figurative, not literal. *It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

And in the action of marching around the city the seventh time on the seventh day that the walls of Jericho fell down (not by the power of the marching feet, or the sound of the trumpet, but by the power of God when the people obeyed what He said.

Again, the walls fell down based on their obedience, but no sins were remitted there either.

That is not what Scripture says.

That is exactly what Scriptures says. James 2:18 - But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference!

Rom 10:9-10 is explicit that the physical action of confessing Jesus with the mouth (verbal and public confession (claiming) of Jesus as Lord) RESULTS IN (meaning it must come before) salvation being received.

By your misinterpretation of Romans 10:9,10 you erroneously turn confession into a work for salvation. Stop leaving out verse 8. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Confess/believe, believe/confess. Repentance "precedes" believe/faith and water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)

This means that this action of faith (along with repentance and baptism) are actions of faith that must be produced before salvation is received.

False. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9) It would appear that you turn repentance, confession and baptism into salvation by works. What a mess! Your bad theology here is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Already dealt with this false comparison. It was God's breathing the soul into man that gave man life (Gen 2:7). "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person."

James is not addressing the source of life in faith but the evidence of faith throughout James 2:14-26. Once again, In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) This remains your Achilles heel.

Precisely. And one who claims to have faith but does not obey the one in whom he claims to have faith is lying. Would the walls of Jericho have fallen down if the people had just believed, but not marched around the city? No, obedience to the command that God says LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving His blessing must be done in order to receive His blessing.

James covers this in James 2:14-26. Don't confuse obedience unto salvation (the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel) with obedience/works which follows after salvation.

This is a nice dodge, but it is still wrong. A person is initially accounted as righteous by God when that person demonstrates their faith through obedience to what God says LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving His blessing.

No dodge just solid Biblical truth that is worth repeating. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

This is a faulty conclusion based on bad logic and poor understanding of the Scriptures.

Oh, the irony.

The ONLY proper conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that our obedience to God's command is still necessary today, just as it was in the OT.

Misguided obedience that culminates in salvation by works is not obedience to God's commands.

What does that "trust and reliance" look like?

It looks like we are trusting and relying in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation with no supplements needed.

It looks like baptism in water, trusting God to keep His word and remove our sins in baptism just as He said He would.

That is your eisegesis. Whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) Your faith is in water baptism and is not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. A symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.

You are adding nothing new to this discussion. If all you are going to do is rehash the same old arguments that have been debunked already and simply reference posts from the past that have already been shown to be full of error, then there is no need to continue.

Oh, the irony . Don't forget that I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ so I understand their absolute obsession with water baptism and how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. None of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

Your heart is still hard and unwilling to come to understand the truth. I pray that God will open your heart before it is too late for the ones you teach.

I came to understand the truth when I opened my heart to the Lord several years ago when I received Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God! I just hope and pray that something I shared with you has at least planted a seed that one day will be watered and lead you to the truth.

 

[Danthemailman]

No. Everything is riding on God's promises.

Already condemned, according to Scripture (John 3:18), and the only way back into fellowship with God is through Christ (John 14:6). The only way to get "in Christ" is through water baptism (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc.).

God's power was sufficient to topple the walls of Jericho without the nation doing anything, but they were required to march around the walls in faith anyway. God's power was sufficient to cleanse Naaman's leprosy, but he was required to dip seven times anyway. The actions of the person do not supplement the power of God, nor do they add to the finished work of Christ. But the result of the blessing is not received until the actions of faith that God commanded that LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving His blessing are done.

It is God's place to make that determination. I cannot teach on the "what if"s. But I would have to say that according to Scripture that person would probably not be saved. The people on the outside of the Ark were on their "death's dead", yet none of them were saved.

Again, that concept is not covered in Scripture, so I can't answer you. It is incumbent on the teacher to know the truth, and to teach the truth before we get to the point where that becomes an issue.

The gospel according to you is "get water baptized or be condemned." I will stick with the gospel according to the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) that he received by revelation from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) ✝️

 

[Doug Brents]

I shared the difference with you between mere "mental assent" belief (James 2:19) and saving belief in Christ (Acts 16:31) which the latter also includes trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Scripture makes it clear that salvation is a free gift received through faith (apart from works) and that is not hard to understand. (Romans 4:5-6; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Apart from works of merit, of the Law, yes. Apart from any works whatsoever, NO! If that were true, then Rom 10:9-10 is a lie, because Rom 10:9-10 makes it very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth RESULTS IN receiving salvation.

It's just hard for you to accept. You want to DO something to help save yourself instead of trusting exclusively in what Jesus has already DONE to save you. You trust in works (at least in part) to save you. I trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. That is the huge difference between us.

No, I do not trust in what I do or have done. I trust in what God has said in His Word. I will keep pointing you to Naaman and the other examples of this that are in the OT until you get the point. Naaman did not trust in the water of Jordan to heal him. If he did, then he would have gone to Jordan instead of coming to the prophet of the Lord. But what did the prophet tell him? "Go dip in Jordan seven times." Was he healed when he decided to go to Jordan? Was he healed when he left toward Jordan? No. Was he healed when he had dipped once? No. Was he healed when he had done all that the prophet of God told him? YES!!!!!! Trust in the Lord is not just believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. It is doing what He commanded, and trusting that He will do as He promised He would do.

That is because their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. You seem to believe that ALL belief/faith is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

There is no faith that does not include action/works. Any "faith" that does not include action/works is dead, meaningless, and worthless. Even your "deeper faith" does not really trust in Jesus for salvation if it does not do what He said to do.

That's not what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).

Those passages do not invalidate other Scriptures. It doesn't matter that these particular passages of Scripture do not say that baptism is essential to receive salvation. There are passages that do, and that makes it so. PERIOD.

In regard to 1 Peter 3:21 and Romans 6:1-7, your eisegesis does not negate those passages of Scripture in the book of John. You need to learn how to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture.

I have, and I do. You explain away 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc. because it does not agree with your preconception which is caused by your misreading many Scriptures.

I already thoroughly covered 1 Peter 3:21 and Romans 6:1-7 with you and refuted your arguments in post #357.

You did not refute my arguments. You gave your false understanding of those Scriptures because you preconception causes you to ignore clear Scripture.

False and Naaman's leprosy was not about sins being removed so your argument is moot.

The argument is about God's blessing. It does not matter whether it is healing or removing sin, as Jesus pointed out in Matt 9:5-6.

In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

Wrong. the Gentiles' sins were not forgiven when the Holy Spirit fell on them in power. The Holy Spirit fell on them the same way He fell on the Jews "in the beginning" (which was on Pentecost)(Acts 11:15). The Apostles and the other disciples already had the indwelling of the Spirit from John 20:22, so the receiving of the Spirit on Pentecost was not about the indwelling (and forgiveness of sin) of the Holy Spirit, and neither was it with the Gentiles in Acts 10.

In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (vs 15), although the apostle had not yet been water baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15) and such a commission is not for one who is still lost in their sins.

Wrong. Paul was not forgiven of his sins until he washed them away in baptism (Acts 22:16). He was still in sin when Ananias came to him three days after his experience on the Road. The fact that God told Ananias that He was going to commission Saul to be His messenger even before He had forgiven Saul's sins is of no consequence. Saul was not fit to carry out his commissioning until he had spent three years learning from Jesus directly in Arabia and in Damascus (Gal 1:11, 17).

Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO.

God chose you and me to have this conversation before He created the world. Do you really think that He couldn't designate Saul to be His messenger even before he had forgiven Saul? You have a very small concept of who God is.

So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17).

Irrelevant.

It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

Again, irrelevant. He was empowered by the Holy Spirit, but he was not yet forgiven, nor was he saved. As we see from Acts 22:16, even after he had received his sight, Ananias still told Saul to make haste and be baptized and wash away his sins.

Acts 22:16 does not establish baptismal regeneration. The verse itself demonstrates that the “washing away” of sins in baptism mentioned is representative and figurative, not literal. *It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all.

It is true that he didn't mention Ananias to the king. Why? Because it was not relevant to the pace of the story he was telling the king. When you talk to a king, you don't belabor details like that. You stay on the most pressing, important details, and you move the story along.

Again, the walls fell down based on their obedience, but no sins were remitted there either.

And again, the faith of the nation was demonstrated in their obedience. It is not about sin, but about demonstrating that God requires obedience to His command before His blessing are received.

That is exactly what Scriptures says. James 2:18 - But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference!

But that is not all the Spirit says about faith in that passage. James 2:20, 22, 24, and 26 all state that faith without action is dead, false, meaningless, and really nonexistent.

By your misinterpretation of Romans 10:9,10 you erroneously turn confession into a work for salvation. Stop leaving out verse 8. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Confess/believe, believe/confess. Repentance "precedes" believe/faith and water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 10:43-47)

Rom 10:8 does not change anything. Yes, confess/believe, believe/confess, so what. Both of them, and repentance precede the reception of salvation (as does baptism). Baptism does not follow after the reception of salvation because it is IN baptism that forgiveness is received.

Tell me, does God's word say that belief AND the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord RESULT in salvation being received? If it does (and it does), then your argument is completely meaningless.

That is your eisegesis. Whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) Your faith is in water baptism and is not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. A symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.

Eisegesis, my poor, deluded friend, is what you are doing. You have formulated this false idea that there is absolutely no action that humans must (or even can) take that leads to the reception of salvation. As has been demonstrated, there are many passages that put the lie to that misconception. This means that your whole argument is base on your eisegesis, and not accurate Biblical study.

Oh, the irony . Don't forget that I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ so I understand their absolute obsession with water baptism and how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. None of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

It is those who once knew the truth but have fallen away who are the hardest to teach.

I came to understand the truth when I opened my heart to the Lord several years ago when I received Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God! I just hope and pray that something I shared with you has at least planted a seed that one day will be watered and lead you to the truth

I have known the truth since I was 14, and have held firm to it, and the Lord God who gave it to me, since then. I have not wavered from this doctrine to that doctrine to another doctrine, as you appear to have done.

I continue to pray for you daily, that you will come to know the truth, accept it, and teach it to others. The false doctrine you teach on this forum will leave them lost for eternity.

 

[Doug Brents]

The gospel according to you is "get water baptized or be condemned." I will stick with the gospel according to the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) that he received by revelation from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) ✝️

It is your misunderstanding of what it means to "believe" that has you barking up the wrong tree.

 

[ARBITER01]

Amen and well said. Very stubborn indeed. Such folks would even walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. Relying on something WE DID: Lord, Lord, didn't "WE" is relying on self for eternal life. Instead, Lord, Lord, didn't "YOU" die for our sins, were buried, and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is relying on Jesus Christ through faith for eternal life. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

There are many areas where water regeneration does not agree with the words of our Apostles, for instance,...

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the defiled sanctifies in respect to the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

The cleansing by the blood of Jesus is non-existent with those who were not washed in His blood but sought salvation a different way. Without the continual cleansing of the blood of Jesus, they have no way to become Christ-like.

 

[Guojing]

John did this.

In john 1 - as many as received him to them he gave the right to become children of God. through faith

in John 3. Look to the cross in faith. you do, your born again, you will never perish you have eternal life.

In john 4 - Living water flowing to eternal life. ask and I will give you this water and you will never thirst again.

In John 5 - Hear and believer, whoever has faith will not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

In John 6 - Work for the food which endures to eternal life. See and believer, you will never hunger, never thirst, Live forever. Pass from death to life. will never die, and have Jesus own assurance he will raise you on the last day.

in john 7 Jesus said, if you thirst, come to me and ask, in faith, and out of your heart will flow rivers of living water (the holy spirit)

Actually all these words are the words of Christ. so Christ taught this salvation by grace through faith. not of works.

I see, does this mean that, if I read Matthew, Mark and Luke, I should also expect Christ to be teaching "salvation by grace through faith. not of works", as well?