Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Amen. In addition to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) and being baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) one may also be filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 4:8; Ephesians 5:18)

Perhaps you missed it but being baptised by the Spirit is what happens when one is baptised in the church.

 

[ARBITER01]

Perhaps you missed it but being baptised by the Spirit is what happens when one is baptised in the church.

If that is true, then what proof do you have that it happened to you?

Christianity is not a thing of the mind, there must be tangible proof.

 

[ARBITER01]

• Credos (Baptists, Charismatics, Pentecostals, SDA and American Evangelicals) do not hold Baptism is a means of Grace.

That is correct.

Water immersion is a follow-up work after our born again experience, where we are re-newed spiritually by the blood of Jesus. Water immersion is simply an acknowledgement of what already took place spiritually to us. We are also water immersed because Jesus was, in a step towards fulfilling all righteousness.

As an AOG Pentecostal, we want to follow Jesus and be Christ-like, so we seek the "filling" of The Holy Spirit after we are water immersed like Jesus had happen. This allows us to have The Holy Spirit inside of us with His fruits and gifts operating.

There are other steps beyond this point, but most AOG Pentecostals as well as Charismatics do reach this point in their Spiritual lives.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If that is true, then what proof do you have that it happened to you?

I was there when I was baptised, so I remember it.

 

[ARBITER01]

I was there when I was baptised, so I remember it.

Ok, let me help you a bit,.... you said this,....

Perhaps you missed it but being baptised by the Spirit is what happens when one is baptised in the church.

So,.... if you were baptized by The Spirit when you were water immersed in your church,..... what tangible thing happened that let you know that The Holy Spirit had immersed you during this???

If you can't answer such a question without always referring back to being there while you was water immersed, I'll assume your statement was a lie, and rightfully so.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So,.... if you were baptized by The Spirit when you were water immersed in your church

I wasn't submerged.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I reckon it's absurd for a guy to be circumcised, Jew or not.

From a natural man’s point of view, yes, but when it’s a command of God, it is absurd not to obey
That is what demons do, and it doesn’t work out well for them.

The argument from a demon is that God is a tyrannical slave driver that cannot stand to have His ego bruised by creatures not loving Him, so He punishes them in hell.
That is a lie, but it convinces a lot of people, so we rebel against God for what ? Hope that our rebellion will convince Him that He is acting childish and repent towards us? What arrogance!!! It’s based on a false premise.
God is not childish and He is not subject to some unseen law that we think above Him. God is love and the source of all life. He loves all His creatures, even the demons. He is not a childish being with a magnifying glass burning ants.

The demons wanted existence separate from God. They rejected Him and wanted to be on their own. God gave them what they wanted, separate existence. He left them on their own.

God is good and all good things come from Him. When they reject God, they reject all good. All that is left is darkness. They have a mind and a will, but no ability to create and sustain themselves.

Evil, like cold is not an entitiy. Cold is the absence of heat. Evil is the absence of good.
While evil itself is not an entity, there are spirits that have chosen the path to evil and would entice souls to join them. They will lead souls with all kinds of false logic.

The only false religion that tells you the truth is Buddhism. What does Buddhism promise? Nirvana. What is Nirvana? Nothing. Come follow me and get a whole bunch of nothing. Great plan, yet souls fall for it.

God makes an offer. Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow in Christ’s footsteps, and you will receive a crown of life, or follow Satan and join him in darkness. We have been given the free will to choose.

Don’t want to follow God’s commands because we think they are absurd? Free choice, but I would rather follow God in what I think is absurdity and then learn of His wisdom, as opposed to following my own understanding in what I think is wisdom only to be found a fool. That is the real absurdity

 

[Apple Sky]

From a natural man’s point of view, yes, but when it’s a command of God, it is absurd not to obey
That is what demons do, and it doesn’t work out well for them.

The argument from a demon is that God is a tyrannical slave driver that cannot stand to have His ego bruised by creatures not loving Him, so He punishes them in hell.
That is a lie, but it convinces a lot of people, so we rebel against God for what ? Hope that our rebellion will convince Him that He is acting childish and repent towards us? What arrogance!!! It’s based on a false premise.
God is not childish and He is not subject to some unseen law that we think above Him. God is love and the source of all life. He loves all His creatures, even the demons. He is not a childish being with a magnifying glass burning ants.

The demons wanted existence separate from God. They rejected Him and wanted to be on their own. God gave them what they wanted, separate existence. He left them on their own.

God is good and all good things come from Him. When they reject God, they reject all good. All that is left is darkness. They have a mind and a will, but no ability to create and sustain themselves.

Evil, like cold is not an entitiy. Cold is the absence of heat. Evil is the absence of good.
While evil itself is not an entity, there are spirits that have chosen the path to evil and would entice souls to join them. They will lead souls with all kinds of false logic.

The only false religion that tells you the truth is Buddhism. What does Buddhism promise? Nirvana. What is Nirvana? Nothing. Come follow me and get a whole bunch of nothing. Great plan, yet souls fall for it.

God makes an offer. Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow in Christ’s footsteps, and you will receive a crown of life, or follow Satan and join him in darkness. We have been given the free will to choose.

Don’t want to follow God’s commands because we think they are absurd? Free choice, but I would rather follow God in what I think is absurdity and then learn of His wisdom, as opposed to following my own understanding in what I think is wisdom only to be found a fool. That is the real absurdity

I agree with all that you have posted but I still think circumcision is absurd & besides we are not under Moses law anymore.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Perhaps you missed it but being baptised by the Spirit is what happens when one is baptised in the church.

Yes. I Cor. 12:13 and Christian baptism is one and the same event. Modern Pentecostal and Charismatic theology incorrectly split them up.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes. I Cor. 12:13 and Christian baptism is one and the same event. Modern Pentecostal and Charismatic theology incorrectly split them up.

That would be because their theology demands a "second experience of grace"

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I agree with all that you have posted but I still think circumcision is absurd & besides we are not under Moses law anymore.

Yes, but at one time it was the command of God.
I believe that we should look at it as past tense, but not degrade it to the level of absurd as an act in itself. Our Lord Himself was circumcised the eighth day under the old law.

I agree with you that circumcision is absurd to undergo at this point. It carries no spiritual or fleshly benefit, except maybe in old men the foreskin has the problem of phimosis and infection with mycobacterium smegmatis. These problems are avoided with proper care of the foreskin. I have overseen the circumcision of older men to alleviate the above problems mentioned however.


My point was not to advocate for circumcision, rather for baptism as a circumcision of the heart as per Colossians 2

​

​ � 11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.

Circumcision was the mark of a member of the Old Covenant. It was required for the people of God.

Baptism is the circumcision of the New Covenant. It is required to be a Christian. Can God save without baptism? Of course He can, as He is God, but those are special circumstances that are limited by human ability.

For us to voluntarily refuse baptism would be akin to Jesus throwing Himself off of the temple and expecting the angels to save Him. We just do not do that, and Our Lord gives us the reason.
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God


Peace be with you brother. May the love of God shine forth in your heart

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

That would be because their theology demands a "second experience of grace"

In my experience, the answer is Yes and No. Yes....for the Pentecostals and Charismatics. Practicing the more spectactuar gifts is what they call the Baptism of the HS. For many others who are non-charismatics....BofHS is synomous with conversion w/o baptism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In my experience, the answer is Yes and No. Yes....for the Pentecostals and Charismatics. Practicing the more spectactuar gifts is what they call the Baptism of the HS. For many others who are non-charismatics....BofHS is synomous with conversion w/o baptism.

It is perplexing. One can never predict the direction of a conversation when baptism of/with/by the Holy Spirit is the subject. I spent nearly a year in an Assembly of God congregation, and it was quite confusing. Some members wanted to teach newcomers how to speak in tongues, others preferred to wait for the latter rain to fall on the newcomers, and still others believed that after receiving water baptism, the newcomers should arise from the water praising God in tongues. After a year of such confusion, I concluded that Pentecostalism was a misguided notion filled with flawed theology.

 

[ARBITER01]

That would be because their theology demands a "second experience of grace"

"Our" theology reflects the example of Jesus in scripture. He received the filling of The Holy Spirit after He was water immersed. We follow His example and have the same experience.

 

[ARBITER01]

I spent nearly a year in an Assembly of God congregation, and it was quite confusing. Some members wanted to teach newcomers how to speak in tongues, others preferred to wait for the latter rain to fall on the newcomers, and still others believed that after receiving water baptism, the newcomers should arise from the water praising God in tongues. After a year of such confusion, I concluded that Pentecostalism was a misguided notion filled with flawed theology.

It doesn't matter what Christian assembly you are in, there are always plenty of dummies to go around, even in your dry, dead, building.

One of the first things a Christian is suppose to learn is dependency on GOD instead of mankind. If a newborn can't learn to ask GOD and wait on His answer, then they deserve what they get.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"Our" theology reflects the example of Jesus in scripture. He received the filling of The Holy Spirit after He was water immersed.

Did he? Show me.

We follow His example and have the same experience.

You do? Show me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

there are always plenty of dummies to go around, even in your dry, dead, building.

Whose "dry dead building"?

One of the first things a Christian is suppose to learn is dependency on GOD instead of mankind. If a newborn can't learn to ask GOD and wait on His answer, then they deserve what they get.

There is one faith, one baptism, it is the baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13.

 

[ARBITER01]

Did he? Show me.

You do? Show me.

Luke 4:1

John 14:12

Btw,..... sorry, I'm not going to meet up with you to show you the operation of the gifts of The Spirit through me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Luke 4:1

Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1 NASB)

Looks like Jesus was already filled with the Holy Spirit when he left the Jordan river where he was baptised, there's no implied break in time between his baptism and the filling with the Holy Spirit.

John 14:12

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. (John 14:12 NASB)

There's no mention of Jesus' followers having the same experience as Jesus did when he was baptised in the Jordan river.

 

[ARBITER01]

Looks like Jesus was already filled with the Holy Spirit when he left the Jordan river where he was baptised, there's no implied break in time between his baptism and the filling with the Holy Spirit.

Obviously you don't know scripture very well.

There's no mention of Jesus' followers having the same experience as Jesus did when he was baptised in the Jordan river.

I did.

I had an amazing filling of The Holy Spirit back in '94. This was after I asked The Lord for His filling and fasted 2/1/2 days. The Lord was walking in the clouds that day also and spoke to me, He said "I put a big engine inside of you."

But,..... I guess you wasn't there to see these things happen to me.

I posted John 14:12 because it is very specific. If you don't have these things happening through you, then you're not really a believer in Jesus. That text wasn't just for the apostles, the Greek article is there "the-one believing in me."