Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Danthemailman]

Not quite correct. This is a definition of charis. Absent from my question is word "means." What is meant by the term "means of grace"?

Let me guess. The only answer you are looking for is the sacraments as taught by Roman Catholicism?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Credobaptists believe baptism is a human work. Paedobaptists believe baptism is a means of grace....the two can never be harmonized. It is the distinction between law and gospel.

It is a distinction between human teachings that make the gospel of no effect and the teaching of the Lord, Jesus Christ, which is the gospel of saving grace.

 

[Danthemailman]

Are promises attached to baptism? Credos say no; Paedos say yes. Even Namaan's washing in the Jordan contained a promise.

Law/Gospel distinction

The Law is to do or not do.....Credos believe baptism is law....to do or not to do.
The gospel is all things the Trinue God's to save mankind....in Creation, Redemption and Sanctification. For paedos, baptism is an instrument of the gospel....

Water baptism is not included in the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16)

 

[Danthemailman]

It is a distinction between human teachings that make the gospel of no effect and the teaching of the Lord, Jesus Christ, which is the gospel of saving grace.

What makes the gospel of grace of no effect is adding works to it. (Romans 11:6)

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Let me guess. The only answer you are looking for is the sacraments as taught by Roman Catholicism?

NOPE, NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC.

**********


All credos believe in the "means of Grace" ....the instrument or vehicle by which mankind knows of God....Scripture.

Paper and Ink deliver God's gracious promises to us. Question: Does baptism contain any promises? And can baptism deliver those promises?

What makes the gospel of grace of no effect is adding works to it. (Romans 11:6)

You are still classifying baptism as a work.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for baptism to be a persons work. Baptism has three essential elements to it 1)water applied to the human body 2) with the name of Triune God, 3) another Christian baptizing the recipient. No Christian baptizes himself. The Christian is in a passive state during baptism. Baptism is the work of another.

No Christian can claim credit for their baptism. It is NOT a work the recipient perform. Period. No Christian can claim baptism a work than a patient claim credit for open heart surgery. Some might say...."I agreed to be baptized." But agreeing to be baptized is not baptism....it is agreeing.

So baptism is the work of another.....but according to Scripture who is the another person doing the baptism? In I Cor 1:10f who baptized who, was more important than understanding who is the REAL BAPTIZER is. Paul states clearly in vs. 13 Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

JESUS IS THE REAL BAPTIZER AS WE ARE BAPTIZED INTO HIS NAME AND HE WAS CRUCIFIED FOR US.

Even though our baptisms are done by human hands, Jesus is the one performing the action.

Baptism is gospel not law.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What makes the gospel of grace of no effect is adding works to it. (Romans 11:6)

That sir is a human teaching, a nonsense. Works of the law are an illicit addition; good works of faith and love are a necessary fruit of grace. After all grace is given to make a Christian good.

 

[Danthemailman]

NOPE, NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC.

**********


All credos believe in the "means of Grace" ....the instrument or vehicle by which mankind knows of God....Scripture.

Paper and Ink deliver God's gracious promises to us. Question: Does baptism contain any promises? And can baptism deliver those promises?


You are still classifying baptism as a work.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for baptism to be a persons work. Baptism has three essential elements to it 1)water applied to the human body 2) with the name of Triune God, 3) another Christian baptizing the recipient. No Christian baptizes himself. The Christian is in a passive state during baptism. Baptism is the work of another.

No Christian can claim credit for their baptism. It is NOT a work the recipient perform. Period. No Christian can claim baptism a work than a patient claim credit for open heart surgery. Some might say...."I agreed to be baptized." But agreeing to be baptized is not baptism....it is agreeing.

So baptism is the work of another.....but according to Scripture who is the another person doing the baptism? In I Cor 1:10f who baptized who, was more important than understanding who is the REAL BAPTIZER is. Paul states clearly in vs. 13 Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

JESUS IS THE REAL BAPTIZER AS WE ARE BAPTIZED INTO HIS NAME AND HE WAS CRUCIFIED FOR US.

Even though our baptisms are done by human hands, Jesus is the one performing the action.

Baptism is gospel not law.

Grace is God's unmerited favor in which He shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions/performance/works. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or best efforts to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

God's grace operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in you.

Water baptism is a work of righteousness and there is a distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Grace is God's unmerited favor

Grace is that and more. One receives graces, not deserved favours from a patron God, but gifts that are not deserved nor earned nor a payment for services rendered. Grace is not grace if it is wages. Just like mercy is not mercy if it is deserved. What are the graces that are received from God, they start with the life of Jesus in you, the eternal life that was with God and is God, that is what is given to a "new Christian". Wisdom is a grace, compassion is a grace, generosity is a grace, the fruit of the Spirit are graces. Grace is a huge gift wider that the seas deeper than the deepest ocean. Grace is God giving himself to and for you.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

How does one achieve this ?

The word of God tells you.
John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19

The poster was correct to say that the contemplation should be can baptism be refused, rather than is baptism necessary.
Jesus commanded the Apostles to preach and baptize. Wherever the Gospel was preached, there was baptism. How can the two be separate?

It is a simple act, and as such, is a mark of obedience. Obedience is a mark of love, as Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. How can we say we love Him, when our first act would be disobedience? The argument becomes absurd and confusing. The author of confusion is not Christ.
Jesus gave us baptism by command and example. Obedience is to fulfill all righteousness. It is the obedience that is salvific more than the act itself, though the two are closely linked.

To be a valid baptism, proper form, matter and intention are needed.
Proper matter is water. We do not baptize with wine, milk or oil, as they are not proper matter and would be a mockery if attempted. God is not mocked.
Proper form is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is not proper to baptize in the name of Jesus only. It is not what He commanded and would be an act of disobedience and therefor invalid.
Proper intention is also needed. The penitent is required to wish to be baptized. We cannot save souls be sneaking up behind them and sprinkling them with water even if proper form is used.
It is the faith of the penitent that makes a baptism valid, not that of the minister. If we have proper intention, matter and form, we need not worry about the faith of the minster. It is the grace of God acting through the sacrament that gives it its power, not the holiness of a man

How can one be a Christian if they are willfullly unbaptized? He would be as an uncircumcised Jew. It is absurd

 

[Apple Sky]

How can one be a Christian if they are willfullly unbaptized? He would be as an uncircumcised Jew. It is absurd

I reckon it's absurd for a guy to be circumcised, Jew or not.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Water baptism is a work of righteousness

Please explain.

there is a distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism.

This is a modern distinction of which I do not make. "Spirit" baptism as distinct from Christian baptism comes from the rise of the Charismatic movement of the 1960's and 1970's and muddies up the conversation here at CF.

 

[Danthemailman]

Grace is that and more. One receives graces, not deserved favours from a patron God, but gifts that are not deserved nor earned nor a payment for services rendered. Grace is not grace if it is wages. Just like mercy is not mercy if it is deserved. What are the graces that are received from God, they start with the life of Jesus in you, the eternal life that was with God and is God, that is what is given to a "new Christian". Wisdom is a grace, compassion is a grace, generosity is a grace, the fruit of the Spirit are graces. Grace is a huge gift wider that the seas deeper than the deepest ocean. Grace is God giving himself to and for you.

I agree it's that and more as I explained in post #374. We certainly cannot earn a gift.

 

[Danthemailman]

Please explain.

I did explain it to you in post #361.

This is a modern distinction of which I do not make. "Spirit" baptism as distinct from Christian baptism comes from the rise of the Charismatic movement of the 1960's and 1970's and muddies up the conversation here at CF.

I'm not talking the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second blessing in addition to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Notice the distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism in Matthew 3:11 - As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm not talking the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second blessing in addition to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about 1 Corinthians 12:13.

When read with due care that verse tells the reader that the Holy Spirit is the one who baptises. No one is "submerged into the Holy Spirit" but one may be filled with the Holy Spirit.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV)​

 

[Danthemailman]

When read with due care that verse tells the reader that the Holy Spirit is the one who baptises. No one is "submerged into the Holy Spirit" but one may be filled with the Holy Spirit.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV)​

Amen. In addition to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) and being baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) one may also be filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 4:8; Ephesians 5:18)

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Fire: Probably deals with Judgment of the Pharisees and Saduccees in vs. 7-10 and vs. 12-13 burning of chaff of unquenchable fire. I am not sure contextually what John is preaching about with the HS and judgment. Is the HS going to apart of the judgment placed up the Pharisees? I don't know. Luke 3 and Matthew 3 to many individuals are very obscure texts.

Whatever, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" means, contextually it is not good to be apart of this kind of baptism.

 

[Danthemailman]

Fire: Probably deals with Judgment of the Pharisees and Saduccees in vs. 7-10 and vs. 12-13 burning of chaff of unquenchable fire. I am not sure contextually what John is preaching about with the HS and judgment. Is the HS going to apart of the judgment placed up the Pharisees? I don't know. Luke 3 and Matthew 3 to many individuals are very obscure texts.

MWhatever, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" means, contextually it is not good to be apart of this kind of baptism.

Matthew 3:10,12 fits that interpretation in regard to fire.

 

[rturner76]

The last time I counted, there were exactly 199,349,297,110 different Protestant denominations. Or approximately 16 denominations per person in the world.

I think that the post above illustrates the point I was attempting to make. Would it seem like 199,349,397,1.1o different denominations preach the fullness of truth, or would it seem that a billion parishioners, Priests, Bishops, and Cardinal may be able to come to a universal consensus as they did with the Biblical Cannon (which all Protestants stand behind instead of the books they didn't like) or would it seem that a globe consensus would seem more believable than nearly 200 millions of different interpretations? At the heart of what I'm asking is that do we have 199,349,297,1.10 different versions of the truth or is there only one version of truth (actually I would say there tare three competing version including the Eastern and Oriental Churches). There is a minuscule amount of differentiation on some of the creeds but all accept the same interpretation of the Bible which is the basis of most Protestant Churches considering the Bible alone concept. Would you put your hand up and say that all of these Biblical Protestant Churches have more insight than those who approved the Biblical Cannon? I mean considering that a new Church is founded just about every day based on that "Pastor's personal interpretation of the Bible? Would it perhaps be more consistent to have a global consensus?

I'm getting off my high horse of comparing the universal Church to the denominational churches. Do you have any desire to reply to the Bible verses I posted and explain why they have been misinterpreted? I'll just post a couple as a reminder rather than encourage you to scroll through my previous posts, which can sometimes be time-consuming.

Perhaps do you hold up any confidence in the book of Acts?
Acts 2:38-39
Peter tells people to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins

In the book of Matthew, it states that JESUS COMMANDS that we be baptised with water. Did Jesus lie or was he mistaken in any way? I sincerely wish to be educated on this if I am mistaken in my interpretation.
Matthew 3:11-17
Jesus baptizes people with water for repentance, but says that someone more powerful than him will baptize people with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Is Corinthians somewhat believable to your denomination?
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Do you accept Romans at all?
Romans 6:3-4 - Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

I don't mean to praddle on but which of these passages is mistaken along with many many others? I didn't want to post it all as this post has been exaustingly long but the bottom line question based on the title of the thread is which of these posted Bible verses are mistaken, untrue, or otherwise misinterpreted? God Bless and I look forward to your response (if you feel like it).

 

[rturner76]

Lutheranism is the historic Western Evangelical church purified by the Word of God.

According to whom exactly? Was there a magesteriam, a council of Bishops or something similar? Also, from my understanding (which of course could be wrong) Luther never started a church. It was his predecessors who published his writings and financed the first one Church outside of the Roman, Eastern, or Oriental Churches. Can you tell me exactly under eho's authority this brand new Church was created? You can't because it was everyday laypeople who prefferef Luther's message more than their church. That is the exact moment it became possible to start your own Church no matter what your qualifications. The same reason why I am able to rent out a property, call my new church whatever I want and teach whatever I want.

I guess I see it like a student of a university cannot be qualified as a Professor when they have only a semester of study. Once on completed the required education they can be trusted to be a professor. With no global standards, there is only chaos in the proper interpretation of scripture and theology. If you would be willing, I wish to ask a personal question. Which of the nearly 200,000 denominations, which one of them got it right?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Grace is God's unmerited favor in which He shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions/performance/works. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our sincerity, performance, or best efforts to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

The "Means of Grace" is a technical theological term. The Means of Grace are God’s appointed instruments by which the Holy Spirit enables believers to receive Christ and the benefits of redemption.

Jesus teaches that the Scriptures are the primary and indispensable means of salvation (Luke 16:31; 24:27, 44–45). The preaching of God’s Word was central in the ministry of the Apostles (Acts 2:22, 41; 4:4; 5:20; 6:7; 12:24; 15:7, 32, 36; 16:14; 19:20; 20:32). Paul explains in Romans 10:17, “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” The Apostles placed the highest value on the Word of God as the means of the salvation and sanctification of believers (Col. 3:16; Heb. 5:14; James 1:18, 21, 25; 1 Peter 2:2).

Here we draw a stark contrast between Credos and Paedos.

• Paedos (Lutheran, Calvinists, Anglicans, Methodists, RCC and the Orthodox) hold that Baptism is also a Means of Grace because of all the promises attached to baptism called out in Scripture.
• Credos (Baptists, Charismatics, Pentecostals, SDA and American Evangelicals) do not hold Baptism is a means of Grace.