Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[bling]

anyone can get baptized in water.

But if they are not baptized by God (saved0 it will just get them wet..

Are you saying every disciple must experience Holy Spirit baptism?

 

[Aaron112]

Are you saying every disciple must experience Holy Spirit baptism?

hint: look up the Hebrew meanings/life in Yeshua. In English is not as clear.(because of changes made by religion(s)).

 

[bling]

One other comment on this:
Please look at the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matt 18:21-35). In His conclusion, Jesus states that the forgiven servant who refused to forgive his fellow servant had the entire debt that he owed (which was forgiven) reinstated, and he was required to pay the whole sum from prison in torment. This points directly to the fact that forgiveness is not just a "one and done" kind of thing. If we do not continually live out the principles which Christ taught, we can and will lose our salvation and have the full penalty of sin returned to us.

I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.

This parable is not explained well by every commentary I’ve read.

Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce an immediate follow-up question in the mines of the hearers, yet the apostles would be slow to ask Jesus, so what is on their hearts which? This parable is the follow-up answer to the question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

If I was there at this time, when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77, I would think: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?”

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asked: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this also from going through this amount of money, but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?

In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.

This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not even imagine hearing an unbelievable: “Your debt has been totally unconditionally forgiven”, so what did he hear?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again, since they still owe us for the last time.

These are teaching moments.

God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.

 

[bling]

To obey Jesus and to stop rebelling against Jesus.

A child without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love, cannot obey or stop rebelling.

Don't assume anything.

OK, Can you personally keep from sinning for the rest of your life and if not why not.

 

[bling]

Even with a large pool (or a river) of water, some persons will not be saved!

That is not what I asked.

 

[bling]

hint: look up the Hebrew meanings/life in Yeshua. In English is not as clear.(because of changes made by religion(s)).

I cannot read Hebrew.

 

[Aaron112]

This is a very common sinful way of thinking today, everywhere, even in churches, worldwide.

I would think: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?”

 

[Aaron112]

What you asked may not be seen as important at this point, with much more important things at stake.

That is not what I asked.

 

[Aaron112]

I cannot read Hebrew either, and have found over the years some pure, accurate word studies, (or lessons, such as by Watchman Nee, E.W.Bullinger, and a few others) as provided by Jesus, to see more clearly His point of view. (often very different than religion or english pov)

I cannot read Hebrew.

 

[Aaron112]

A child without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love, cannot obey or stop rebelling.

There's too much religious baggage assumed , I think.

Be becoming as a little child, as Jesus Says, definitely not as religion or man says.
Again as Jesus says, whoever does not become like a little child (/infant), will NEVER SEE the kingdom of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

None of this is included in what Daniel says will come during the 70th week (or between the 69th and 70th for that matter).
Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
When was sin made at an end? When was guilt atoned? When was everlasting righteousness brought? When was the Most Holy Place anointed? The answer to all of these is: when Jesus died. He was cut off (died) in the middle of the 70th week.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

1. at the end of the 659th week. Messiah was cut off (killed) on the cross.

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

2. The people of the future prince (Rome) shall destroy the city and sanctuary this was fulfilled in 70 AD when the people of Rome led by Titus literally destroyed Jerusalem so bad. you could not even tell a city was there
3. The end of this will come with a flood. and there was be war desolations of this place and it will remain desolate for a time period which is UNKNOWN but is determined, (think wars and rumers of wars)

27 Then

4. When this time is complete. THEN something will happen.


he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

5. He (the prince who is to come, whos people destroyed the city and sanctuary Will confirm some covenant with many people which will last for 1 week or 7 years


But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

6. In the middle of this 7 year period. the one who confirmed the covenent will commit an abomination that causes desolation (see matt 26)


Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

7. this will stay in place for a time determined And during this time, until the consumation of something is poured out on the desolate

Matt 24 is the key, Jesus mentions this time, and say when you see it to run, for then there will be great tribulation not seen since the begining of time, nor shall ever be

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It might be too late for either a, b, or c. There might not be a way nor a reason to be immersed in Jesus' Name. The door may be closed.

the door will be closed when you physically die

until then their is a possibility to be baptized by God by trusting in him or be baptized in water for whatever reason you desire (because you are saved, or to get or complete salvation)

 

[Doug Brents]

You cease of unbelief because you repented. And confess you are a sinner

the word sin is not in Rom 10..

You are not given forgiveness from unbelief. You repent from unbelief into belief.

Yes. so he can offer them his grace gift based on the fact if they want it, which they will only want if they repent and go from unbelief to belief

Not so. Anyone can want it, even without repentance. As Jesus said, there are many who, at Judgement, will have not only wanted it but thought they had it, but He will tell them that He never knew them. Even though they did great things in His name, they were never His, nor He in them.

You sure of that?

You still have Gods standard lowered.

The standard of the law was perfection. So God lowered that standard?

Absolutely sure of it, 100%. God has not lowered His standard, but Jesus fulfilled His standard, and we who are in Him receive His measure as if we had achieved His perfection (Rom 5:1, 2 Cor 5:21). We are no longer under the Law, because it has been made obsolete in Christ (Heb 8:13, Gal 4:21-5:7).

There is one action leading to salvation. Come to God in faith. and receive his gift.

Rom 10:9-10 states very clearly a physical action that results in our receiving His gift of salvation. And there are other passages that have been enumerated in many threads on this forum (including baptism) that also lead to/result in our receiving His gift of salvation. And that makes "faith" not just a mental "coming to God", but a physical action we must take.

If your already in christ your saved, You have eternal life. You have been adopted.

there is no more things required to be saved

If you are already saved, then there is no more things required to receive what you already have.
But if you are not saved (which you aren't until you have been baptized, having first repented, and confessed Jesus as Lord), then there most certainly are things that you must do in order to receive salvation in the first place.

I can come and talk to a brother about his sin. I have no right to judge.

let he who has no sin cast the first stone

You have the responsibility to judge what he is doing as sin (if it is). There is no casting of stones, simply pointing out to a brother that his life has fallen into sin, and he needs to get himself right or be lost. In that we are absolutely called to judge with all humility and fear, lest we be tempted as well.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Compare 'sin' with rejection of God ?

Romans 10 – Israel’s Present Rejection of God​

Romans 10: 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

again, the word sin is not mentioned

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus says whoever ENDURES to the end,,........ Not whoever gives up !

Jesus said that about those living during the great tribulation period. and this salvation is their physical life. not eternal life.

Context should be your friend.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you saying every disciple must experience Holy Spirit baptism?

if your not baptized by the Holy Spirit as follows

rom 6: 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 cor 12: 3 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

Gal 3: For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Then you are not saved. Your still lost in your sin.

 

[Aaron112]

Why? 'Context' does not help your pov.

Jesus said that about those living during the great tribulation period. and this salvation is their physical life. not eternal life.

Context should be your friend.

 

[Aaron112]

I've been in some gatherings where the word "Jesus" is never mentioned.

again, the word sin is not mentioned

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why? 'Context' does not help your pov.

Matt 24: 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved

The context is the great tribulation. the time of the end, it is in response to the disciples questions

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've been in some gatherings where the word "Jesus" is never mentioned.

and?

smh