Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Doug Brents]

They are not forgiven of unbelief

"Forgiveness of unbelief" is not a thing. Forgiveness of sin is the only forgiveness that Scripture speaks to.

lol. We are saved by GRACE

"Grace" simply means "gift". So you are saying we are saved by "gift"? No, we are saved by Jesus' sinless blood. That salvation is a gift, and that gift is received through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

so the law required perfection

But we can keep it today, and be alright if we are not perfect.

smh, EG, the Law has no relevance to us today. We are under the New Covenant, not the Old, and the Law was part of the Old. To be right with God today, we must be in Christ, and if we are in Christ His righteousness is imputed to us, and our sins are imputed to Him. Thus, He paid the penalty for our sins on the cross (death), and we are paid the due for His righteousness (Heaven).

I will not judge anyone

Then you will have failed at a responsibility that God gives us as brothers and sisters.

I believe there will be many in heaven no one thought would be there and many in hell no one thought would be there

In the second place, I know you are right (Jesus said so explicitly). In the first place, I don't believe you are right, but I will be happily surprised if you are.

 

[Aaron112]

What must a child know before being baptized?

To obey Jesus and to stop rebelling against Jesus.

Please address my post 6.

No.

Can you personally keep from sinning for the rest of your life and if not why not (assuming you live 20 more years at least?

Don't assume anything.

 

[Aaron112]

His spirit testifies with our spirit that we are his children.

No. Many are called, but few are His children.

 

[com7fy8]

If i say I believe Jesus, Yet believe that me being immersed in water is my salvic act. Then is my faith in Jesus? Or is it in my act of obedience?

And it is possible for me to boast that I am good enough to do my baptism right.

Not quite!!

 

[Guojing]

Yes, we have confidence that He will complete the work He began in us. But we must remain in Him to allow Him to do so. He does not nail us to the potter's wheel. He allows us to cease being purified if we choose to walk away from Him.

One good example of that will be taking the mark of the beast during Daniel's 70th week, which I believe its the sin described in Hebrews 6:4-6.

But as I have already said to you, that instruction is one of those that are not relevant for us today in the Body of Christ.

 

[Aaron112]

If i say I believe Jesus, Yet believe that me being immersed in water is my salvic act. Then is my faith in Jesus? Or is it in my act of obedience?

Would you then lie and disobey, or tell the truth, trust Jesus, and obey Him ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"Forgiveness of unbelief" is not a thing. Forgiveness of sin is the only forgiveness that Scripture speaks to.

lol. When you are born again, because you repented from unbelief to belief. you are forgiven of unbelief

Scripture says ALL sin will be forgiven but one.. You reject the HS and his words (unbelief) you are committing the unpardonable sin. Jesus did not just pay for the sin of the elect. he paid for all sin. This allows him the freedom to offer grace to everyone, if he did not. then he did not die for the whole world

Dies in that state and you are lost forever.

"Grace" simply means "gift".

No, it is more than this, The word grace is a word which speaks of being kind, showing favor, beauty, goodwill, a gift. Charm It comes from the greek word Charis which means by definition to show kindness, to show favor, to charm (charismatic)

So you are saying we are saved by "gift"? No, we are saved by Jesus' sinless blood. That salvation is a gift, and that gift is received through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

Yes, Salvation is a gift. Bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

smh, EG, the Law has no relevance to us today. We are under the New Covenant, not the Old, and the Law was part of the Old.

If your not born again, Your under the law.

Then why do you want to put people under law (works?)

And only the saved are not under law. we have been freed from the curse of the law based on the redemption in christ.

To be right with God today, we must be in Christ, and if we are in Christ His righteousness is imputed to us, and our sins are imputed to Him. Thus, He paid the penalty for our sins on the cross (death), and we are paid the due for His righteousness (Heaven).

And how is this applied. how are we put in Christ?

John 3 - By believing (trusting) in him via the cross
John 4 - by asking for the water that flows to eternal life
John 5 - By seeing and believing
John 6 - By eating the bread from heaven, the food which endures forever, The flesh and blood - or as Jesus put it and peter repeated. the words that Jesus came to give us, that the bread from heaven came to earth and will give his flesh and blood so we may be made right with him.

rom 4 - Abraham believed God. and it was credited to him as righteousness. As David said, blessed is the man who God will not impute sin, how is this happen. By the same faith Abraham had. No by works, but by faith. lest anyone should boast.

Then you will have failed at a responsibility that God gives us as brothers and sisters.

lol. Jesus said he did not come to judge. And he did not call to judge. I am not god., I do not know a persons heart. But hey, if you think you can get deep inside a persons inner thinking and know if they are saved or not. or if they even have a mustard seed of faith. all the glory to you

In the second place, I know you are right (Jesus said so explicitly). In the first place, I don't believe you are right, but I will be happily surprised if you are.

why would you be happily if all these people who thought they would be in heaven, and who we even thought would be in heaven, are not resurrected?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No. Many are called, but few are His children.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Just stick to scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And it is possible for me to boast that I am good enough to do my baptism right.

Not quite!!

I always thought of the one who had to get baptized in cold water before water heaters were invented.

Could they not boast of what they had to go through and how their sacrifice was much more than a person getting baptized in august on a hot sunny day with warm water?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Would you then lie and disobey, or tell the truth, trust Jesus, and obey Him ?

this makes no sense.

I either got baptized out of gratitude and love for what God did for me (saved me)

or I get baptized to save my eternal soul

there is no plan C

 

[Doug Brents]

One good example of that will be taking the mark of the beast during Daniel's 70th week,

Daniel's 70th week has already happened, immediately after the 69th week.

which I believe its the sin described in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Any sin from which we do not repent is the sin described in Heb 6:4-6.

But as I have already said to you, that instruction is one of those that are not relevant for us today in the Body of Christ.

What instruction is it that is not relevant to us today? You have lost me here.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Daniel's 70th week has already happened, immediately after the 69th week.

actually no it has not

There is a time between the time messiah is cut off after he comes (which signified the end of the 69th week) and the 70 week (he confirms a covenant with many for 1 week)

In this time we see

1. The destruction of jerusalem (40 years later)
2. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
3. During this time, jerusalem will lie desolate and there will be wars

this is still going on today

Any sin from which we do not repent is the sin described in Heb 6:4-6.

The sin with which we can not be renewed to repentance (salvation)

 

[Doug Brents]

lol. When you are born again, because you repented from unbelief to belief. you are forgiven of unbelief

You must cease unbelief and repent of sin in order to be born again (Rom 10:14).

Scripture says ALL sin will be forgiven but one.. You reject the HS and his words (unbelief) you are committing the unpardonable sin. Jesus did not just pay for the sin of the elect. he paid for all sin. This allows him the freedom to offer grace to everyone, if he did not. then he did not die for the whole world

Dies in that state and you are lost forever.

Certainly Jesus died for the whole world, not just the "elect". And anyone who does not believe in Jesus is certainly lost.

No, it is more than this, The word grace is a word which speaks of being kind, showing favor, beauty, goodwill, a gift. Charm It comes from the greek word Charis which means by definition to show kindness, to show favor, to charm (charismatic)

Yes, Salvation is a gift. Bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

If your not born again, Your under the law.

The Law has been removed. No one is under the Law, nor has been since Jesus was raised from the dead.

Then why do you want to put people under law (works?)

I do not. Faith is not real unless it has action. And God commanded three actions as LEADING TO/RESULTING IN receiving salvation.

And only the saved are not under law. we have been freed from the curse of the law based on the redemption in christ.

The Law has no significance at all today, because it was made obsolete in Jeremiah when God spoke of a New Covenant to come, and "disappeared" when Jesus died/was resurrected.

And how is this applied. how are we put in Christ?

John 3 - By believing (trusting) in him via the cross
John 4 - by asking for the water that flows to eternal life
John 5 - By seeing and believing
John 6 - By eating the bread from heaven, the food which endures forever, The flesh and blood - or as Jesus put it and peter repeated. the words that Jesus came to give us, that the bread from heaven came to earth and will give his flesh and blood so we may be made right with him.

rom 4 - Abraham believed God. and it was credited to him as righteousness. As David said, blessed is the man who God will not impute sin, how is this happen. By the same faith Abraham had. No by works, but by faith. lest anyone should boast.

This leaves out a couple of things that Scripture says result in salvation, and includes some things that are only valuable to those who are already in Christ.

lol. Jesus said he did not come to judge. And he did not call to judge. I am not god., I do not know a persons heart. But hey, if you think you can get deep inside a persons inner thinking and know if they are saved or not. or if they even have a mustard seed of faith. all the glory to you

Jesus did not come to judge, but He is the only right and true Judge. He did judge, frequently, and when He saw sin in a person's life He called them out on it (kindly, with tact, and usually simply by showing them a straight line by which to judge for themselves their own crooked line, but He did not sit idly by and allow people to sin without pushing/leading them toward the truth.

why would you be happily if all these people who thought they would be in heaven, and who we even thought would be in heaven, are not resurrected?

Read what I said again. The first place is referring to those who are in Heaven but didn't expect to be there.

 

[Doug Brents]

actually no it has not

There is a time between the time messiah is cut off after he comes (which signified the end of the 69th week) and the 70 week (he confirms a covenant with many for 1 week)

In this time we see

1. The destruction of jerusalem (40 years later)
2. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
3. During this time, jerusalem will lie desolate and there will be wars

this is still going on today

None of this is included in what Daniel says will come during the 70th week (or between the 69th and 70th for that matter).
Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
When was sin made at an end? When was guilt atoned? When was everlasting righteousness brought? When was the Most Holy Place anointed? The answer to all of these is: when Jesus died. He was cut off (died) in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[Aaron112]

I either got baptized out of gratitude and love for what God did for me (saved me)

or I get baptized to save my eternal soul

there is no plan C

It might be too late for either a, b, or c. There might not be a way nor a reason to be immersed in Jesus' Name. The door may be closed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You must cease unbelief and repent of sin in order to be born again (Rom 10:14).

You cease of unbelief because you repented. And confess you are a sinner

the word sin is not in Rom 10..

Certainly Jesus died for the whole world, not just the "elect". And anyone who does not believe in Jesus is certainly lost.

Yes. so he can offer them his grace gift based on the fact if they want it, which they will only want if they repent and go from unbelief to belief

The Law has been removed. No one is under the Law, nor has been since Jesus was raised from the dead.

You sure of that?

You still have Gods standard lowered.

The standard of the law was perfection. So God lowered that standard?

I do not. Faith is not real unless it has action. And God commanded three actions as LEADING TO/RESULTING IN receiving salvation.

There is one action leading to salvation. Come to God in faith. and receive his gift.

The Law has no significance at all today, because it was made obsolete in Jeremiah when God spoke of a New Covenant to come, and "disappeared" when Jesus died/was resurrected.

If your trying to earn salvation by how good you are or good works. your putting yourself back under law.

This leaves out a couple of things that Scripture says result in salvation, and includes some things that are only valuable to those who are already in Christ.

If your already in christ your saved, You have eternal life. You have been adopted.

there is no more things required to be saved

Jesus did not come to judge, but He is the only right and true Judge. He did judge, frequently, and when He saw sin in a person's life He called them out on it (kindly, with tact, and usually simply by showing them a straight line by which to judge for themselves their own crooked line, but He did not sit idly by and allow people to sin without pushing/leading them toward the truth.

I can come and talk to a brother about his sin. I have no right to judge.

let he who has no sin cast the first stone

Read what I said again. The first place is referring to those who are in Heaven but didn't expect to be there.

 

[Aaron112]

Compare 'sin' with rejection of God ?

the word sin is not in Rom 10

Romans 10 – Israel’s Present Rejection of God​

 

[Aaron112]

there is no more things required to be saved

Jesus says whoever ENDURES to the end,,........ Not whoever gives up !

 

[bling]

I already responded to this concept in post#714. Baptism is a requirement to receive salvation. Yes, it is God that does the saving, just as it was God who did the cleansing of Naaman (not the water), but God required dipping in water (specific water for Naaman) seven times for Naaman to receive His gift of physical cleansing, and He requires being baptized in water to receive His gift of spiritual cleansing.

Do you believe God must have a large pool of water around to save a person?

Where does it say you will have a physical feeling of the experience of salvation? I have not read that, but would be interested in seeing it if you could point me to it.

Water baptism has in physical water.

There is a definite time and place in which we experience salvation: baptism.
1 Pet 3:21 says that water baptism (which is an antitype of the Flood) now saves us by giving us a clean conscience through the power of Jesus blood.
Acts 2:38 states that both repentance and baptism as necessary in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
Gal 3:26-27 states that it is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and are adopted as God's children.
Eph 5:26-27 states that it is by the washing of water through the Word that we are made pure, spotless, and holy.
Rom 6:1-7 states that it is in baptism that we die to sin, and are united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.
Col 2:11-14 states that it is in baptism that our sin is cut from us and we are united to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

How do they differ from what I said?

Where is the concept of "an outward expression of an inward change" talked about in Scripture. I still have not found anyone who was able to point me to that in Scripture.

All the water baptisms in scripture are physical happenings, which mimic what is invisible happening.

These elements are not just figured, but are a spiritual reality. The old, dead man goes into the water, and he emerges a new creation in Christ (Rom 6:1-7).

The Spiritual reality is the invisibly happening, while we can see, feel and tough the water.

The indwelling of the Spirit is only for those who are in Christ. He does not enter into hearts that are not pure. And He does not purify hearts that are not baptized (John 3:5 says that it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God (the Church, of whom every person has the indwelling of the Spirit) without being born again of both water and the Spirit.

Right the indwelling Holy Spirit is for disciples.

I see where you are going here, and I find no immediate fault with it.

Good

No, the water does not save, any more than the water cured the leprosy of Naaman. But if Naaman had not dipped seven times (if he had not dipped at all, or if he had stopped at six, or if he had dipped in the Red Sea, etc.) he would not have been cleansed. Similarly, if we are not baptized, we do not receive salvation.

Are you not limiting God’s ability with that statement?

God has established the "rules", and even He must abide by His own rules or He is not the JUST God He says He is (2 Thes 1:6). The rules that God set in place state that if we do not repent of sin we will not receive forgiveness (Acts 3:19), and that if we do not confess Jesus as Lord verbally we will not receive salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and if we are not baptized we are not saved (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, etc.).

So a person is not forgiven/saved/cleansed/justified (all synonyms) until they have done these three things.

I do not put limits on God’s ability to save. God has changed the “rules” many times.

 

[Aaron112]

Do you believe God must have a large pool of water around to save a person?

Even with a large pool (or a river) of water, some persons will not be saved!