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Do we inherit the Original Sin from Adam and Eve or just the consequences?

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NavyGuy7

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We are not born sinners. Being born is not a sin. We are born with Free Will, and hence we have choices and the consequences of our actions. It is Free Won't that we need to cultivate.

We are born sinners. Being born is NOT a sin, I'll agree. But we inherit sin from our ancestor, Adam. If we did not, we would not sin, would we? At least, we would not have the urges and temptations that lead to sin. It is when we are old enough to understand the decision Christ gives us, however, that we are held accountable for our sins. It is called the Age of Accountability, and is not always the same for every person. It's that point in your life that you are capable of understanding.
 
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IamAdopted

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We are not born sinners. Being born is not a sin. We are born with Free Will, and hence we have choices and the consequences of our actions. It is Free Won't that we need to cultivate.
LOL well now this goes directly against what scripture says..
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
 
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Tkjjc

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LOL well now this goes directly against what scripture says..
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

I don't read that into those verses. How does a child sin? They know no different, and how can you condemn those who don't know? Paul is speaking to adults, and yes, you must die in the flesh, as ALL flesh must die. Imputed sin, because of a sentence 6000 years ago is ridiculous.

He says that you are dead to sin. Of course you are as death has been defeated and the bridge restored. This is Spiritual, only. To live in the Spirit, while remaining in the flesh. Your flesh can still sin, but your reborn spirit, infused with His Spirit, making up the Body of Christ cannot sin. In Him there was and is no sin.

But to say that a baby born, is a sinner, when no sinned has occurred is judgmental, to say the least. Best leave that to God.

Think like a child for a second.

Jesus came to save us, right? Yes, by His sacrifice ALL are saved.
How does one get saved, if you die as a baby, when doctrine states you died in your sin, though it be"original"? Impossible, as no sin can inherit the kingdom, right? This is why ALL these doctrines had to be written to support such a theory, like "cardinal" sin, and "lesser" sins. Comon, where is this biblically, and no matter what, if you can show this to me, takes away from the VERY SACRIFICE made on the cross.

Adam sinned and the curse or punishment was death for ALL in the flesh AND still the SPIRIT couldn't get home, and the way to Eden blocked off from mankind. When people before Christ Died, they couldn't get home to the Father.
Jesus died so that ALL may be saved, and by His Word, the kingdom to be restored. When death was defeated the Word says the graves were opened up, and walked upon the earth. This was the first resurrection of the saints. Transform bodies who can walk and talk. Fulfilled as promised:

Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


To say anything else takes away from these basic facts. Even those who had died, before Christ, were waiting until the promise was fulfilled. Only these were saints who kept the Law, and kept the Word of the Promise. Fleshly men and women, who died in the flesh.
 
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IamAdopted

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I don't read that into those verses. How does a child sin? They know no different, and how can you condemn those who don't know? Paul is speaking to adults, and yes, you must die in the flesh, as ALL flesh must die. Imputed sin, because of a sentence 6000 years ago is ridiculous.

He says that you are dead to sin. Of course you are as death has been defeated and the bridge restored. This is Spiritual, only. To live in the Spirit, while remaining in the flesh. Your flesh can still sin, but your reborn spirit, infused with His Spirit, making up the Body of Christ cannot sin. In Him there was and is no sin.

But to say that a baby born, is a sinner, when no sinned has occurred is judgmental, to say the least. Best leave that to God.

Think like a child for a second.

Jesus came to save us, right? Yes, by His sacrifice ALL are saved.
How does one get saved, if you die as a baby, when doctrine states you died in your sin, though it be"original"? Impossible, as no sin can inherit the kingdom, right? This is why ALL these doctrines had to be written to support such a theory, like "cardinal" sin, and "lesser" sins. Comon, where is this biblically, and no matter what, if you can show this to me, takes away from the VERY SACRIFICE made on the cross.

Adam sinned and the curse or punishment was death for ALL in the flesh AND still the SPIRIT couldn't get home, and the way to Eden blocked off from mankind. When people before Christ Died, they couldn't get home to the Father.
Jesus died so that ALL may be saved, and by His Word, the kingdom to be restored. When death was defeated the Word says the graves were opened up, and walked upon the earth. This was the first resurrection of the saints. Transform bodies who can walk and talk. Fulfilled as promised:

Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


To say anything else takes away from these basic facts. Even those who had died, before Christ, were waiting until the promise was fulfilled. Only these were saints who kept the Law, and kept the Word of the Promise. Fleshly men and women, who died in the flesh.
Babies are born sinners. I am sorry but this truth. In fact they are conceived in sin..
 
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IamAdopted

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I don't read that into those verses. How does a child sin? They know no different, and how can you condemn those who don't know? Paul is speaking to adults, and yes, you must die in the flesh, as ALL flesh must die. Imputed sin, because of a sentence 6000 years ago is ridiculous.

He says that you are dead to sin. Of course you are as death has been defeated and the bridge restored. This is Spiritual, only. To live in the Spirit, while remaining in the flesh. Your flesh can still sin, but your reborn spirit, infused with His Spirit, making up the Body of Christ cannot sin. In Him there was and is no sin.

But to say that a baby born, is a sinner, when no sinned has occurred is judgmental, to say the least. Best leave that to God.

Think like a child for a second.

Jesus came to save us, right? Yes, by His sacrifice ALL are saved.
How does one get saved, if you die as a baby, when doctrine states you died in your sin, though it be"original"? Impossible, as no sin can inherit the kingdom, right? This is why ALL these doctrines had to be written to support such a theory, like "cardinal" sin, and "lesser" sins. Comon, where is this biblically, and no matter what, if you can show this to me, takes away from the VERY SACRIFICE made on the cross.

Adam sinned and the curse or punishment was death for ALL in the flesh AND still the SPIRIT couldn't get home, and the way to Eden blocked off from mankind. When people before Christ Died, they couldn't get home to the Father.
Jesus died so that ALL may be saved, and by His Word, the kingdom to be restored. When death was defeated the Word says the graves were opened up, and walked upon the earth. This was the first resurrection of the saints. Transform bodies who can walk and talk. Fulfilled as promised:

Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


To say anything else takes away from these basic facts. Even those who had died, before Christ, were waiting until the promise was fulfilled. Only these were saints who kept the Law, and kept the Word of the Promise. Fleshly men and women, who died in the flesh.
Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,



To say anything else takes away from these basic facts. Even those who had died, before Christ, were waiting until the promise was fulfilled. Only these were saints who kept the Law, and kept the Word of the Promise. Fleshly men and women, who died in the flesh.
They all died in Faith knowing from the scriptures that Christ was their savior.. :)
 
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Tkjjc

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Babies are born sinners. I am sorry but this truth. In fact they are conceived in sin..

Really?
Duet 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

1st John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Well, this smacks in the face of what you are implying. John says that children shouldn't sin, but you say it doesn't matter, you are BORN with it.
Moses wrote that children weren't to be put to death for the sins of their fathers, but you say that we are already, by original sin doctrines.

The only reason we die in the Flesh according to God, is that Adam was driven from the Garden. Hense, he couldn't eat from the tree of LIFE any longer. This is where we dwell in these vessels now. Driven out. Does this mean we sinned? No. It means the reconciliation couldn't take place until Jesus, the second Adam, redeemed us and conquered death. He did this by OBEDIENCE to the Father's Law. Perfection, and a sacrificed death. We are now victorious in Christ. Yes the vessels die, but our spirit lives on. The bridge is restored, and now Eden is attainable once again. Jesus is that tree of Life, and by His Word, we live, according to the promises made to Abraham.

What must I believe? Babies sin, or the Word of God? Show me in doctrine, where Babies sin. This is a man made doctrine which DROVE me to confessional when I was but a boy, and didn't even realize what I was saying or doing. Man, was I messed up, until I came OUT of HER.
 
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IamAdopted

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Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Babies are born in sin. As all men are.. From the moment we are conceived we are.. That is why it is natural to sin..
 
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holyrokker

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Psalm 51:5 is not a doctrinal statement for original sin.

First of all, it is poetry. David is uses imagery throughout the psalm:
"Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow."

"let the bones you have crushed rejoice"

It's more a statement of his mother's sinfulness.


In Psalm 139 David says: "For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb."

Are you saying that God placed the sin in David's heart?
 
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Tkjjc

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Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Babies are born in sin. As all men are.. From the moment we are conceived we are.. That is why it is natural to sin..

David was born through sin, as his mother sinned to bring him in. How does this make David the sinner? I was brought forth perversely(or an act of perversion or consequence of) , and through sin my mother conceived me. So who sinned, David or his mother? Need to read up on the Hebrew there, as iniquity and sin are both different words.

Is this it? In the whole Bible? And it is questionable at best, to say the least. Churches base a whole doctrine on the fact that babies are born with original sin, right? Show me more please, as this won't do.
 
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IamAdopted

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David was born through sin, as his mother sinned to bring him in. How does this make David the sinner? I was brought forth perversely(or an act of perversion or consequence of) , and through sin my mother conceived me. So who sinned, David or his mother? Need to read up on the Hebrew there, as iniquity and sin are both different words.

Is this it? In the whole Bible? And it is questionable at best, to say the least. Churches base a whole doctrine on the fact that babies are born with original sin, right? Show me more please, as this won't do.
LOL oh boy.. See the problem with what you are trying to say is that we are not sinners unless we sin. This is not the truth. We sin because we are sinners.. Born slave to sin since sin came in through Adam. A baby will grow up and sin.. In fact a baby at a small age will sin. :) Because sin is falling short of the Glory of God..
 
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Tkjjc

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LOL oh boy.. See the problem with what you are trying to say is that we are not sinners unless we sin. This is not the truth. We sin because we are sinners.. Born slave to sin since sin came in through Adam. A baby will grow up and sin.. In fact a baby at a small age will sin. :) Because sin is falling short of the Glory of God..

Ok, let me ask a simple yet well thought out question, ok?

Could Jesus, being fully a man, of the flesh, ever have sinned? Careful how you answer that question, though. It must be fully thought out, and searched out for through the Spirit.
 
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IamAdopted

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Ok, let me ask a simple yet well thought out question, ok?

Could Jesus, being fully a man, of the flesh, ever have sinned? Careful how you answer that question, though. It must be fully thought out, and searched out for through the Spirit.
He was tempted in all ways that we were yet without sin. Do you believe that God in the flesh could actually sin?
 
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Tkjjc

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He was tempted in all ways that we were yet without sin. Do you believe that God in the flesh could actually sin?

Did Adam sin?

Don't forget that while most will claim only the divinity of Jesus, they forget he was FULLY man as well. Yes, if He chose to, He could have sinned. Adam did, right? Jesus was the second Man, or second Adam, God created, though He was begotten, and not formed. But still PERFECT as God's creation.

You think there was a little red devil tempting Him in the wilderness? You don't think that that thought ran through His mind when He became hungry, that He COULD actually turn that rock into bread? It took His Word, to Overcome that. Quoting Scripture, to battle those thoughts. It became a play of Word so to speak, as the temptation got into a Scriptural Matchplay. Back and Forth.

People who claim only the divinity of Jesus, never really see the accomplishment, and the OVERCOMING of the flesh that He actually did. If He "cheated", by not being able to actually sin, because He was divine, then what he did in the flesh is meaningless. He could have just shown up, and died.

But that is what makes this Man, Jesus, so extraordinary. He was flesh, and ALL flesh dies. HE DIED! This flies in the face of A LOT of religions, but to take away from what He did in the flesh, takes away His MANHOOD. He lived in and through the Spirit, and fully after His Baptism. The Father was fully in Him, in His BODY of FLESH. But He OVERCAME the flesh. He was the First, but not the last. He is the Head, but we are the Body. He defeated death, by living a PERFECT LIFE, and being a PERFECT SACRIFICE, and was WELL PLEASING to the Father.

People who forget that Jesus was a Man, though the second, forget the Love that was shown for us that day on Calvary.

This is why babies cannot be born into sin. If so, Jesus sinned, as He was as fully flesh, as you or I. But that takes away from His Perfection. His mother was born into sin, right? But see, the doctrines have to keep changing, to meet the belief. Now they say Mary was divinely created as well. If that is the case, you would need to go back to Adam, and have a baby, before the fall. Logic simply doesn't allow for this. Scripture doesn't allow for this. And babies being born into sin, doesn't allow for this.
 
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holyrokker

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Regarding Psalm 51:5

I had posted this in another thread, I'll repost it here.

Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (English Standard Version)


This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The other form of Hebrew parallelism has the second line saying the opposite of the first. It is was is considered good poetry in Hebrew. (They didn’t use rhyme or meter).
The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the “pulal” tense (as is "made" in Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of polel ("formed" –see also Psalm 90:2, Proverbs 26:10 ).

The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the `circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself.

Why was his mother’s act considered sinful?

A) David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:

1Chronicles 2:13-16 “Jesse fathered Eliab his firstborn, Abinadab the second, Shimea the third, Nethanel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, Ozem the sixth, David the seventh. And their sisters were Zeruiah and Abigail. The sons of Zeruiah: Abishai, Joab, and Asahel, three.


B) ....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:

2 Samuel 17:25 “Now Absalom had set Amasa over the army instead of Joab. Amasa was the son of a man named Ithra the Ishmaelite,[who had married Abigal the daughter of Nahash, sister of Zeruiah, Joab's mother.”

C) Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite king:

1 Samuel 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite went up and besieged Jabesh-gilead, and all the men of Jabesh said to Nahash, ‘Make a treaty with us, and we will serve you.’”

1 Samuel 12:12 “And when you saw that Nahash the king of the Ammonites came against you, you said to me, 'No, but a king shall reign over us,' when the LORD your God was your king.”



D) David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash’s former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children. (2 Samuel 10:2)

David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them, (1 Samuel 17:28-30) and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as `true' a son as his half-brothers. Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected all his sons, to the sacrifice (1 Samuel 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring his sons by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1 Samuel 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David, (1 Samuel 16:11) which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the least) to be the greatest.

E) David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because “no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation” (Deut 23:3), and yet in Psalm 86:16 and Psalm 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered “defiled” by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.
 
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calvinroyal

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Why all the hoopla about Mary’s virginity then?

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Job 14 (King James Version)
Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
 
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holyrokker

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Why all the hoopla about Mary’s virginity then?

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Job 14 (King James Version)
Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

The virgin birth important because Jesus is not simply human. He is God in the flesh.

This is crucial to the importance of His sacrifice. It's significant because it wasn't just a man who died on Calvary, God Himself made propitiation for us himself.

As for Job 14 - notice the words "man is ... of a few days and full of trouble.."

It isn't "from birth" - and it doesn't say "full of sin"

As for Psalm 51:5 - see my previous comments.
 
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calvinroyal

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The virgin birth important because Jesus is not simply human. He is God in the flesh.

This is crucial to the importance of His sacrifice. It's significant because it wasn't just a man who died on Calvary, God Himself made propitiation for us himself.

As for Job 14 - notice the words "man is ... of a few days and full of trouble.."

It isn't "from birth" - and it doesn't say "full of sin"

As for Psalm 51:5 - see my previous comments.
Surely you don't mean He was quasi human?
I believe He was fully God & fully Man at the same time as put forth by the doctrine known as the hypostatic union. However, if sin inheritance is as you say then why would it matter about Mary's virginity. Don't get me wrong, I believe she was, but I see it as necessary to Christ's righteous standing as He was fully in His state as a man. But all of this matters not with respect to what actually happened with Christ. The fact is he did not sin, even while He was tempted of Satan. But why would Christ be no different than us with respect to weither He could sin or not *if He did not inherit the sin nature of humanity, (which I believe He did not) if it wern't for the virginity of Mary. Either we are sinners at birth, hence Christ is no exception, or we are not sinners at birth, hence no need to argue over "alma vs. betulah" about Mary.

Cal
 
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holyrokker

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If Jesus's father was a man, not God, then Jesus wouldn't have been divine.

The virgin birth of Mary has nothing to do with "inherited" sin.

It is about His divinity.

By the way - I don't believe Jesus was "quasi-human" either.

Jesus was, and is, fully man and fully God.

Fully man, because he was conceived of a woman; fully God because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrew 2:14, 17 "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil...For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people"
 
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