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Do we have the right to harm ourselves?

True Scotsman

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Again with the slave language.

What if it didn't conflict with your values. Would it still be wrong?

You're the one who spoke in terms of ownership. What else is ownership of another. Yes is would be wrong to abandon a chosen obligation. That is a very different question from the OP. I thought you were asking if we had the right to harm ourselves in general. Yes we all have the right of self determination.

How much of my life belongs to others? I can give you an exact answer to that question: exactly as much as I choose to give and no more.

Now suppose my children are grown and I am in so much pain that life has no value any more. Don't I have the right to end my life?
 
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bhsmte

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Again with the slave language.

What if it didn't conflict with your values. Would it still be wrong?

Is it important to you for everyone to agree on what is wrong? If so, why?

Is it possible to get everyone to agree on what is wrong?
 
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Tree of Life

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You're the one who spoke in terms of ownership. What else is ownership of another. Yes is would be wrong to abandon a chosen obligation.

Once chosen, are you obliged to stick with it all the way or can you unchoose it if you want?

Now suppose my children are grown and I am in so much pain that life has no value any more. Don't I have the right to end my life?

I don't believe you have the right to end your life because your life does not belong to you alone.
 
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Tree of Life

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You're the one who spoke in terms of ownership. What else is ownership of another.

I might use a term like "love" or "service". "Slave" could be an acceptable term but it's tricky because it's so negatively charged. The fact that you're using this term goes to show your negative perception of us belonging to one another.
 
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True Scotsman

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I might use a term like "love" or "service". "Slave" could be an acceptable term but it's tricky because it's so negatively charged. The fact that you're using this term goes to show your negative perception of us belonging to one another.

You're right, I do have a negative perception of us belonging to one another. My life is mine and yours is yours. I don't believe in such a thing as unearned love or admiration. I choose to give my love to those who share my values and the rest I let them go their own way.
 
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grasping the after wind

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You're right, I do have a negative perception of us belonging to one another. My life is mine and yours is yours. I don't believe in such a thing as unearned love or admiration. I choose to give my love to those who share my values and the rest I let them go their own way.


How does one earn love?
If love is earned, the one doing the loving is basically just participating in a transaction much like an employer would compensate an employee?
 
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Eudaimonist

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I'm not sure why we should use the word "slave" here.

The word is precisely accurate. A slave is someone who is owned like property.

It seems like it's only being used to charge the issue with a negative connotation.

If it is negatively charged, that's because owning another person is a negative thing. I'm simply calling a spade a spade instead of using euphemisms.

Should I call a death camp a "health resort" because the term death camp is negatively charged? I'd rather be honest.

Why would it be wrong to abandon my children?

You owe it to yourself to be a decent human being.

So there's nothing that I really owe my children? I just owe stuff to myself?

Yes, but your obligations to yourself can involve others, but not by putting yourself into the position of a slave.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

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What's a better way to think about it?
Ok, a couple of thoughts (please don´t take any of this personally - you asked):

1. "ownership", "a right", "responsibility", "duty" etc are taken from "Amtssprache" ("beaurocratic language"), the language of power, pressure (and violence) - representing this very of approach, attitude and thinking; a particularly ugly language that doesn´t belong in our private lives. Our personal relationships aren´t about distribution of power.

2. Saying that your children "have a right" or "own you" is factually inaccurate. It is being a pompous way of saying that you feel they are in need of care and protection and that you feel inclined to give it to them (which is a good thing), out of your own volition. Children do not have such a right or ownership - they couldn´t even claim or enforce such. It is you who offers them this or that, but that doesn´t equal a "right". It doesn´t change anything about you being the factually powerful person at whose mercy your children are. You are the one who determines what responsibility to take. In my understanding, for there to be a "right" or "ownership" there must be a third party authority granting these (and helping to enforce them). In picturing your volitional decisions as handing out "rights" you are announcing yourself party and judge at the same time.

3. That your children "own" you is also inaccurate for the fact that while you feel they have "a right" to demand that you abstain from suicide, you certainly don´t feel they would have "a right" to demand you to commit suicide if they so wished.

4. Dealing in terms of "Amtssprache" is a dangerous thing. As Marshall Rosenberg (inventor of "Non-Violent Communication") puts it: Everyone involved will pay a high price of this. (Example: Typically, this generous handing out of "rights" to your children will eventually result in you claiming "rights" for you and "responsibilities" for them, once you get old.) It is establishing the idea of mutual pressure as the basis for our interactions.

Now for the alternative:

You start thinking of human relationships and interactions in terms of empathy, well-being and fulfilling needs (which include your own needs).
Caveat: If you feel you are not empathy gifted this approach obviously won´t work for you, and you might be left with the approach of mutual pressure.

Do you want to commit suicide? or
Do you want to abandon your wife and/or your children?

If no: How do questions of "rights" and "responsibilities" even come into the picture?

If yes: We may now start to empathically look at the needs of everybody involved.
And the first question that comes to me:
"To which extent will the needs of your children be met if you stay alive although being desperate or staying with them although it makes you unhappy? What are the alternatives? What - seeing that having a father who stays alive (stays with them) just out of a self-imposed or allegedly external pressure might not be a particularly good environment for children (who need honest care, positive emotions, parents who have a positive outlook on live etc. etc.) - other solutions could possibly account better for the fulfilment of the needs of the children?
and next:
"Isn´t knowing that your father has spent a life of unhappiness and lack of fulfilment due to his perceived responsibility towards you an incredibly heavy burdon to have on your shoulders when starting into life? Won´t that make you feel unwelcome forever? Won´t that put a pressure on you automatically (even though no return has yet been demanded)?"

I´m not pleading either way here (a lot depends on the individual cases and circumstances), and a father who commits suicide while you grow up certainly isn´t a pretty thing either. That´s not the point. The point is that I am pleading for a different way of approaching the question.

If sometimes: There is a good chance to find a solution that accounts for the fulfilment of both your needs (which probably involve more time for yourself) and your children´s needs.

On a final note: Once you notice the desire to commit suicide or abandon your wife and/or children, you may want - instead of escaping into ugly, incorrect, pompous "Amtssprache"-thinking which is likely to perpetuate your unhappiness - start to consider how it has come this far, and if there is any chance to restore a life in which you can happily coexist with your wife and children (instead of responding to self-imposed or allegedly external pressure).
 
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True Scotsman

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How does one earn love?
If love is earned, the one doing the loving is basically just participating in a transaction much like an employer would compensate an employee?

I wouldn't use the employer/employee analogy but definitely it is a transaction. The currency involved here is virtue and values. I love someone because of their qualities and character and not for what they do for me. There are some people who I love and admire greatly who I've never met such as Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell and Ayn Rand. Love to me is definitely a payment in exchange for the values and virtues a person has that I share.
 
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True Scotsman

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-_- people literally can die from it and frequently did in the past.

Well said. You can just imagine the less than sanitary conditions it was done under. Heck, I know someone who almost lost his member as a child due to an infection from being circumcised. I'd rather die.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I wouldn't use the employer/employee analogy but definitely it is a transaction. The currency involved here is virtue and values. I love someone because of their qualities and character and not for what they do for me. There are some people who I love and admire greatly who I've never met such as Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell and Ayn Rand. Love to me is definitely a payment in exchange for the values and virtues a person has that I share.

Virtue and values seem like fairly nebulous and subjective criterion. What makes someone virtuous and what sort of values must they adhere to before they are worthy of being loved? For instance, though I have no idea what sort of person she was and cannot tell you if I could have known her personally and found her worthy(i.e. worthy according to the standards you set forth above) of love, I have read some of her works and I find Ayn Rand's philosophy to be one I reject as petty, selfish and bordering on anti social. Still I would not say Ayn Rand was these things as I never met the woman and what a person may write may well not be reflected in that person's actual real life.
I suppose the idea of loving a new born would be right out of the question as the newborn does not display any qualities or character that would be admirable? However, you contend one can love someone one has never met? If one has never met a person how does one possibly determine if they are worthy of being loved or admired? How can a stranger have earned one's love without that one ever being able to examine whether the stranger's words and deeds are consistent with each other?
 
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grasping the after wind

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-_- people literally can die from it and frequently did in the past.

I think I will need to see some corroboration of that statement before I can accept it as factual. And define what you mean by frequently.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Well said. You can just imagine the less than sanitary conditions it was done under. Heck, I know someone who almost lost his member as a child due to an infection from being circumcised. I'd rather die.

Infection also happens in ear piercing and tattooing. But I doubt that people frequently died from those or circumcision. And Of course, it was never ear piercing, tattooing or circumcision that caused the deaths it was the infection caused by unhygienic practices. Circumcision itself is not harmful, poor hygene is.
 
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True Scotsman

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Virtue and values seem like fairly nebulous and subjective criterion. What makes someone virtuous and what sort of values must they adhere to before they are worthy of being loved? For instance, though I have no idea what sort of person she was and cannot tell you if I could have known her personally and found her worthy(i.e. worthy according to the standards you set forth above) of love, I have read some of her works and I find Ayn Rand's philosophy to be one I reject as petty, selfish and bordering on anti social. Still I would not say Ayn Rand was these things as I never met the woman and what a person may write may well not be reflected in that person's actual real life.
I suppose the idea of loving a new born would be right out of the question as the newborn does not display any qualities or character that would be admirable? However, you contend one can love someone one has never met? If one has never met a person how does one possibly determine if they are worthy of being loved or admired? How can a stranger have earned one's love without that one ever being able to examine whether the stranger's words and deeds are consistent with each other?


Okay how about honesty. Is that a nebulous value. How about integrity. Is that nebulouse and subjective? How about self reliant? That does not seem to be a very concrete quality. How about rational? That is not subjective or nebulous quality. Do you not know what a virtue is? These things are just some of the requirements that I require before I grant my admiration to a person.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Okay how about honesty. Is that a nebulous value. How about integrity. Is that nebulouse and subjective? How about self reliant? That does not seem to be a very concrete quality. How about rational? That is not subjective or nebulous quality. Do you not know what a virtue is? These things are just some of the requirements that I require before I grant my admiration to a person.

Yes those are all nebulous, subjective and open to interpretation. I have no problem with you using them, as you define them, as your criterion for granting someone your admiration. I wasn't even questioning you about admiration because I sort of have the same type of criterion as you do for admiration. But for me, love is a completely different thing and I wish to hand it out profligately without regard to any criterion but membership in the ranks of the living. I also have no problem with you deciding that you will only love those you find are worthy by your standard to receive your love. That is entirely your business and your decision to make. I am only asking how you go about discerning which ones are worthy by your standards. How, for instance, can you be certain someone is honest and how long must you know them before you can become certain enough of their honesty to allow yourself to grant them love. Do you expect others to hold you to the same standard or are you willing to accept their love even if you fall short?
 
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True Scotsman

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Infection also happens in ear piercing and tattooing. But I doubt that people frequently died from those or circumcision. And Of course, it was never ear piercing, tattooing or circumcision that caused the deaths it was the infection caused by unhygienic practices. Circumcision itself is not harmful, poor hygene is.

mutilating a child's genitals is not harmful? You have a different view of harmful than I do.
 
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