Do we have the right to harm ourselves?

[True Scotsman]

Do we have the right to harm ourselves? It seems to me that if we belong only to ourselves then we have every right. But if there's some sense in which we belong to others then we have no right.

Thoughts?

Yes we have the right of self determination.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No one truly believes that accidental materials gave us everything including our non material human entities of mind, will, love, reason, logic, abstract thinking, etc... Its just a convenient charade so One can be his own 'god' thereby doing whatever he feels like ....even harming himself deliberately or due to consequences of bad decision making. Failure = Success doing the wrong things .

Being 'an atheist' is not a reasonable nor logical position....and harming Oneself deliberately is an affront to the Creator and to Oneself who has the responsibility to care for him/herself. Its called self preservation and its a concept the Creator has given all of us because we are wonderfully made . Read Psalm 139 for just how wonderful.

Believe in and follow Secular Humanism, and watch how fast a Person goes downhill in life because he cant even have basic respect and dignity toward Himself. This is what we were all brainwashed with thru the public school system , but now we are done with the indoctrination, we can get back to loving God and appropriately loving ourselves .

What if you are hurting yourself to save 2 other people? Like, say, donating bone marrow. That process is exceedingly painful

 

[Tree of Life]

That's right. Fortunately, we belong only to ourselves. We are no one else's property.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I'm not sure that this is true. I've made certain promises and commitments to my wife. Don't I belong to her in some sense? I believe I certainly belong to my sons. I am their father and they have some ownership of me. It would be wrong for me to abandon them because I am theirs. If I were to commit suicide I would be robbing them of something, would I not?

My sons, in a sense, belong to me as well.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes. I don´t deal in "rights" (other than as a legal term - and this is apparently not what you have in mind). The question is meaningless to me. Could you reword it for me?

The other side of the coin of "rights" is "responsibilities" so the question could be reworded to say: "Does harming ourselves conflict with our responsibilities to others?"

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes we have the right of self determination.

So are you saying that no one else has any claim to your life?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

in the usa military, if you kill yourself, you can be summarily courtmartialled and executed.
in war time, if you get sunburned, same.
in war time, if you're late, same.
in war time, if you hurt yourself on accident, same.
in war time, if you strike any officer in your chain of command, same.

in the usa military, you are not just a slave - you are USA PROPERTY. period.

in the world, everyone starts out as satans property. pretty much.

the only way to freedom is through the death and resurrection process.

guess who is the only one through whom anyone may be saved ? (okay, don't guess. read in Torah.)

once purchased with the blood of the lamb, then HIS. (perfectly wonderfully beautifully graciously!) (of course, few become HIS)(most go down, not up)(so to speak)

 

[True Scotsman]

So are you saying that no one else has any claim to your life?

If by claim you mean an unchosen obligation then yes that's what I'm saying. I don't recognize anyone's right to one minute of my life without my consent.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I'm not sure that this is true. I've made certain promises and commitments to my wife. Don't I belong to her in some sense?

Not as property.

You aren't her slave, nor is she yours. You are companions who have lives of your own to lead, and who have agreed to be fellow travelers in life. Whatever promises and commitments you may have made do not override your own humanity and expectations of dignity accorded to free individuals.

I believe I certainly belong to my sons. I am their father and they have some ownership of me.

I think that "ownership" is the wrong concept here.

It would be wrong for me to abandon them because I am theirs.

I agree that it would be wrong for you to abandon them, but not because you are their slave.

If I were to commit suicide I would be robbing them of something, would I not?

That's an interesting question. I don't think that it works quite like that. It's not that you are robbing them of something, but rather that you are shirking your obligations towards them -- obligations that you really owe to yourself.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LittleQin]

Better ask about circumcision then if you ever meet the god implied by your faith.

It is not harmful. It is merely a symbol of the covenant God made with Abraham.

 

[variant]

Do we have the right to harm ourselves? It seems to me that if we belong only to ourselves then we have every right. But if there's some sense in which we belong to others then we have no right.

Thoughts?

Personal rights like property rights are ideas, you have those you can enforce/respect or convince others that you have so they will help you enforce/respect them.

 

[Tree of Life]

If by claim you mean an unchosen obligation then yes that's what I'm saying. I don't recognize anyone's right to one minute of my life without my consent.

Do you have children?

 

[Tree of Life]

Not as property.

You aren't her slave, nor is she yours. You are companions who have lives of your own to lead, and who have agreed to be fellow travelers in life. Whatever promises and commitments you may have made do not override your own humanity and expectations of dignity accorded to free individuals.

If I decide that I don't want to follow through on my commitments am I doing something wrong?

I think that "ownership" is the wrong concept here.

I agree that it would be wrong for you to abandon them, but not because you are their slave.

I'm not sure why we should use the word "slave" here. It seems like it's only being used to charge the issue with a negative connotation.

Why would it be wrong to abandon my children?

That's an interesting question. I don't think that it works quite like that. It's not that you are robbing them of something, but rather that you are shirking your obligations towards them

If I am shirking obligations then I am robbing. I'm failing to give them something that's rightfully theirs.

obligations that you really owe to yourself.

So there's nothing that I really owe my children? I just owe stuff to myself?

 

[quatona]

The other side of the coin of "rights" is "responsibilities" so the question could be reworded to say: "Does harming ourselves conflict with our responsibilities to others?"

As you may have guessed I am not dealing in "responsibilities" (beyond the legal realm), either.
I think there are better ways to think of our relationships with others.

 

[quatona]

Do you have children?

Do you shape your relationship with your children in terms of "rights" and "obligations"?

 

[True Scotsman]

Do you have children?

I do. Three of them in fact.

 

[Tree of Life]

I do. Three of them in fact.

Think about when your children were young. What if you suddenly decided that you did not want to give them your time and attention, so you abandoned them. Would that be wrong? If so, why?

 

[Tree of Life]

Do you shape your relationship with your children in terms of "rights" and "obligations"?

This isn't the only way to think about our relationship, but yes. My sons have rights and I have responsibilities.

 

[Tree of Life]

As you may have guessed I am not dealing in "responsibilities" (beyond the legal realm), either.
I think there are better ways to think of our relationships with others.

What's a better way to think about it?

 

[True Scotsman]

Think about when your children were young. What if you suddenly decided that you did not want to give them your time and attention, so you abandoned them. Would that be wrong? If so, why?

Yes it would be wrong because it would conflict with my own values. This does not make me their property or them mine. I don't believe that parenthood consists of breeding slaves or becoming one. It is a mutual trade.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes it would be wrong because it would conflict with my own values. This does not make me their property or them mine. I don't believe that parenthood consists of breeding slaves or becoming one. It is a mutual trade.

Again with the slave language.

What if it didn't conflict with your values. Would it still be wrong?