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do we get to heaven right after death?

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Codger

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Dear Vibrant,

Your question was...

Do we get to heaven right after death?

I am amazed that more people do not ask this most essential and important question. The posts here don't indicate a complete understanding.

I ran across a very enlightening tape by David Pawson teacher extraordinare from down under. This guy reeks of intelligence, logic, and credibility. He puts all those scriptures together for us that we have not understood over the years.

If you have an MP3 player you can listen to it. It is titled "Between Death and Resurrection" A good investment of your time...

Part 1 of 2
http://www.neoparadigm.org/audio/teaching/dpawson/David_pawson_between_death_and_resurrection1.mp3

Part 2 of 2

http://www.neoparadigm.org/audio/teaching/dpawson/David_pawson_between_death_and_resurrection2.mp3

Codger
 
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armyman_83

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I am in total agreement with you. As far as I am concerned, the idea that Christians go to heaven once they die is one of the many "feel-good" ideas that pervade in our religion. We will get to heaven, it just does not happen immediately upon death.

When ever we get there...Just so long as we get there I will be happy;)
 
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vibrant

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Codger said:
Dear Vibrant,

Your question was...

Do we get to heaven right after death?

I am amazed that more people do not ask this most essential and important question. The posts here don't indicate a complete understanding.

I ran across a very enlightening tape by David Pawson teacher extraordinare from down under. This guy reeks of intelligence, logic, and credibility. He puts all those scriptures together for us that we have not understood over the years.

If you have an MP3 player you can listen to it. It is titled "Between Death and Resurrection" A good investment of your time...

Part 1 of 2
http://www.neoparadigm.org/audio/teaching/dpawson/David_pawson_between_death_and_resurrection1.mp3

Part 2 of 2

http://www.neoparadigm.org/audio/teaching/dpawson/David_pawson_between_death_and_resurrection2.mp3

Codger

unfortunately i don't, but you have my interest piqued. could you provide a brief synopsis?
 
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mgh887

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Well, If we believe in Jesus Christ who died on the cross for paid fully our sins and rose from the death, we're surely taken up to the heaven.

For ur notification, your purpose should be fulfilled. Refer to 40Days of Purpose;
1) Worship
2) Fellowship
3) Discipleship
4) Ministry
5) Evangelism

1) Worship
You were planned for God's pleasure

2) Fellowship
You were formed for God's family

3) Discipleship
You were created to become like Christ

4) Ministry
You were shaped to serve God

5) Evangelism
You were made to share the Good News

For further information, should you ask to me and I would like to reply as soon as possible.
 
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salvation05

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Resurrection Defeats Satan and Gives Jesus the Victory.


John 5:28,29 - The "hour" is coming in which "all" will be raised, both good and evil. "Hour" refers to a particular (short) period of time.

John 6:40,44,54; 12:48 - There will be a "last day," It is the same day all men will be judged. The righteous will be raised on that day, not 1000 years before it

2 Thessalonians 1:4-10
Note what happens "in that day" when Jesus' comes (v10) and is revealed from heaven with the angels (v7): afflicted Christians will receive rest (v4,7) and those who know not God and obey not the gospel will receive vengeance in flaming fire, punishment even eternal destruction (v7-9).



Matthew 25:31-33
When Jesus comes in glory with the holy angels, then all nations are gathered and separated good from evil. The righteous enter eternal life, and the wicked will depart into everlasting fire (v41,46).
 
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Sophia7

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I believe that the Bible teaches that we remain in the grave after death, until Jesus comes again to take us to heaven. I will explain this in a moment, but first I would like to clarify a couple of things. People who hold this view generally do not believe that the spirits of the dead are just hovering around in some nebulous state, or that they have any sort of awareness, while their bodies are in the grave. We believe that humans are not inherently immortal but that we will receive immortality when Jesus comes. Thus, we believe that our souls do not leave our bodies at death but, rather, that we become unconscious of anything, as if we were sleeping. (Jesus referred to death as a sleep several times, such as in John 11 when Lazarus died.) It is like sleep in that for the Christian it is not final, but the next thing we are aware of will be seeing Jesus when we come out of our graves to meet Him in the air.

As for the Biblical evidence, I'll start with the account of creation in Genesis 2. By the way, I will be using the NIV unless otherwise noted. Verse 7 says:

GEN 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

In the King James Version, this says that man became a "living soul." I believe that the Bible indicates that the soul is the whole being of a person, made from the dust of the ground and the breath of life given by God. The soul is not a distinct and separate part, and when the breath of life leaves man at death, man returns to the dust of the ground. The idea of soul/body dualism came about through philosophy and not through the Bible.

Genesis also shows that we are not innately immortal but that immortality is a gift from God. God told Adam and Eve, "You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (2:17). The KJV says, "In the day that thou eatest thereof, . . . ." Obviously, Adam and Eve did not die on the same day or even close to the same time that they ate of the fruit. What happened was that at that moment they became subject to death; they lost the immortality that God had given them at creation. Upon their expulsion from the Garden, God said:

22 "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Even though they were forgiven for their sins, they could not regain the immortality that they had forfeited because God cut off their access to the Tree of Life.

Another text is found in Ecclesiastes 9:

ECC 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

ECC 9:6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

This certainly does not suggest that the dead are in heaven looking down on what's happening on earth or roaming about in some spirit form.

You listed some good texts in your question, Vibrant. There are many others, but one more that I would add is the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15. It describes how we can be sure of the resurrection of the dead because Christ died and was resurrected for us. I'll just quote a few key parts, but I would recommend reading the whole chapter to put it in context.

1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This shows that the resurrection of the dead is in the future. Christ has already been raised, guaranteeing our resurrection when He comes. Some would say that our souls go to heaven at death, and then they are reunited with our bodies at the resurrection, but that makes no sense to me. I have seen no evidence to support this in the Bible, and what would be the point?

This whole chapter builds up to a description of Jesus' Second Coming:

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

55 "Where, O death, is your victory?

Where, O death, is your sting?"

This is further evidence that we are not given immortality until Jesus' return.

Finally, 1 Timothy 6:16 says that God alone is immortal.

I hope this helps to clarify some of the issues involved in this view.
 
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Davis

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tel0004 said:
whether or not we instantly go to heaven really dosnet matter. If we sit idle for 10,000 years, then get risen from the dead, it will still seem instant. Heaven is eternal, so im not worried if I have to wait around a few years, but my viewpoint is that it is indeed instant in both the physcal and time sense.

I agree with what you say. Except I'm still unsure whether we will rise when we die or when Christ comes back. But it will feel instantanous either way.
 
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Mikecpking

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Well said Sophia7, the soul definately is not immortal, the Hebrews saw the soul as the 'vital life' shared by humans and animals and at physical death, it dies. I would like to think it would feel instantaneous from death to being with Christ, because of the promise to the theif on the cross, Paul's statemnt to die is to gain, yet those, asleep in Christ will arise..
 
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Sophia7

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As far as Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross, we should remember that Jesus did not ascend to heaven that day when He died (and, as I believe, neither did the thief). After the Resurrection, when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, He said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father" (John 20:17). He did not return to heaven until he had appeared to the disciples for 40 days (Acts 1:3). Therefore, it would not make sense for Him to tell the thief that he would be in paradise with Him that day.

Some believe that the text (Luke 23:43) makes more sense if read as follows: "Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.'" Because the Greek manuscripts that were used to translate the New Testament did not use punctuation, it is possible that when translated into English, the commas were misplaced to reflect people's own assumptions about how it should read. It does not fit with other biblical evidence for Jesus to tell the thief that he would immediately go to heaven when Jesus didn't.

One more text I thought of on this subject is Acts 2:29-36, from Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost:

29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

" `The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

AC 2:35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

AC 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Thus, Peter was aware that David did not ascend to heaven but that he remained in his grave. Jesus, on the other hand, did ascend to heaven but left an empty grave. He did not ascend in spirit form but as a whole person, a whole being, a whole soul (including the body, with the wounds in His hands and all). Likewise, we will ascend to heaven when Jesus comes again, as whole souls (body plus life-giving breath of God), clothed with the immortality that Jesus promised us in 1 Corinthians 15.
 
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tall73

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Yeah that Sophia lady is smart! (even if she is my wife! haha)

Here are some additional scriptures on the subject that I wrote up. One or two may duplicate, so forgive me. I just collected them in this form for quick reference.

THESE ARE LONG. But I posted them for any who want a full exposition of this view of death. If that is not of interest to you, simply skip down.



DEATH

Immortality of nature is an attribute that distinguishes God from men--Only God is Immortal

RO 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

1TI 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1TI 6:11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

The human soul is not immortal

EZE 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

PS 26:9 Do not take away my soul along with sinners, my life with bloodthirsty men,

PS 116:8 For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling,

PR 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.

Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul is the dust + the breath of life. A soul is a human being.

GE 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (The KJV renders this ‘soul’, the NIV ‘being’, to note that what is formed is a person from the components)



We deserve death, but God gives eternal life as a gift–conditional immortality

RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

RO 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We do not receive immortality immediately, though we do have assurance of it. This happens at the second coming of Christ, at the resurrection. This is why the second coming is the hope of the New Testament Christians.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

2TI 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge,will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.



1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For theperishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

At the resurrection our bodies become like Christ’s body

1CO 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

JN 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

(This text describes Jesus post-resurrection body)

 
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tall73

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Until the resurrection we are truly dead, we ‘sleep’ in the dust (see above also)

JOB 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep



PS 7:4 if I have done evil to him who is at peace with me or without cause have robbed my foe-- then let my enemy pursue and overtake me; let him trample my life to the ground and make me sleep in the dust. Selah

PS 13:3 Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;

PS 90:5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-- though in the morning it springs up new, by evening it is dry and withered.

JN 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair. 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick." When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5 Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days. Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea.""But Rabbi," they said, "a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?" Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10 It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light." After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him." Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask." Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

MT 9:23 When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24 he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25 After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up. 26 News of this spread through all that region.

The dead do not ascend to heaven, (With the exception of Moses)

JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

(This text shows that Moses’ body was contended for, not just his soul. Moreover, it is clear that this was an unusual event, as there was a dispute over whether this could happen. At this point, Christ had not died yet for the sinner.)

AC 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

" `The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 5 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet." '

JN 20:15 "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

The dead do not have sentient thoughts in the grave

PS 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

(NIV says "plans", KJV says "thoughts"...either way, they cease to be)

ECC 9:3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

What about dead spirits?

Levit. 20:7 Mediums, etc. forbidden

`I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Deut. 18:9

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

I Chronic. 10:13 Saul died for consulting a medium

Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Isaiah 8:19 Don't consult dead, but go to the Lord

When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

I John 4:1 Must test spirits

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Corinth. 11:13 Satan masquerades as an angel of light

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
 
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tall73

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2CO 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2CO 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

I would like to comment on this passage because it is one that has come up in favor of the view that we go immediately to heaven.

Some notes:

a. Paul does not say that when our tent is gone we are free from the body. He says that when our tent is gone we will have an eternal HOUSE, a lasting structure, a replacement for the weak tent. This is a parallel to the new body talked about in Corinthians 15, and would be similar to Jesus' resurrection body. (see my earlier posts) It is a body without corruption.

b. He says that we meanwhile groan, longing to be clothed with the heavenly body so we won't be found NAKED. Now we see three states. 1. Tent 2. Heavenly building 3. Unclothed, or naked. The word "groaning" is rather instructive. It is not the only time Paul uses the phrase in regard to the body. Notice this passage in Romans:

RO 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

The hope is that God will soon end this earth that is groaning under the weight of sin, and we , and it will be redeemed. The "redemption of our body" is the hope they were saved in. But it is not yet. In fact, the text implies it is at Jesus coming at the restoration of all things.

Now, notice then that the state of being unclothed, is nakedness. Paul wants not to be dead...naked...but to be clothed with his heavenly body..the redemption of his body. He wants out of this dying old tent, and to see his hopes realized.

c. in vs. 4 we see another parallel to his theology in I Corinthians 15. Verse 4 reads..."For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life."

Now let's plug in our definitions, and see if it works. For while we are in this (current body) we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be ( dead), but to be clothed with our (new heavenly body), so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Now when is the mortal swallowed up by life? I Corinthians makes this clear:
1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Putting the texts from all of Paul's writings together that use similar language helps us to see that these three states are the same he has talked about before.
1. This life
2. Sleep in death
3. New body, with the Lord.

d. verse 6 again summarizes, that we would rather be out of this body (the weak tent), and with the Lord. And note that it ends with a picture of appearing before the judgement seat of Christ to receive a reward for that done in this earthly body.

When does this judgement happen, when do we get our reward?

Again Paul's words elsewhere give us a valuable clue, showing both the reward and the judgement:

2TI 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

The crown is IN STORE, till that day, in which the righteous Judge will give him, and all those who long for His appearing their reward. That day seems to be a clear reference to His coming.
 
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tall73

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The following text has also been a source of confusion for some regarding the Bible teaching on death:

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The text says that the one who believes in Jesus will never die. How are we to understand this?

The quote is part of a larger story dealing with the resurrection of Lazarus. To understand the statement we must understand the story:
JN 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair. 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick."

JN 11:4 When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5 Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days.

It seems strange that Jesus would wait to go to His friend when he was apparently seriously ill. But Jesus pronounces two very important things for the disciples to consider

1. The sickness will not END in death.
2. This would work out for God's glory.

It is clear from the rest of the story that Lazarus did in fact die from the sickness. But Jesus had in mind that He would raise him again to life, which would both bring glory to God, and give hope for the future for those who believe His promise of new life.

JN 11:7 Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."

JN 11:8 "But Rabbi," they said, "a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?"

JN 11:9 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10 It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light."

JN 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

JN 11:12 His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

JN 11:14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Jesus here refers to death for the believer as sleep. This term is in fact used throughout the Bible for death. It is indicative of a few facts.

1. It is a state of unconsciousness
2. It is temporary! The believer will wake up again.

JN 11:16 Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him."

JN 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

JN 11:21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

[/quote]
Martha was understandably upset. Not only had her brother died, but she wonders why Jesus waited so long. Why didn't He heal Lazarus?

JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

JN 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

JN 11:27 "Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

It is evident that this was not the first discussion about death that Jesus had with Martha. When He affirms that her brother would rise, she announces her understanding of the coming resurrection. "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." It was Jesus plan to raise Lazarus now of course, but it was an illustration of that last day resurrection. And He wants Martha to know that the key factor in that last day resurrection is faith in Him.

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will life, even though he dies."

First Jesus affirms that those who die, believing in Him will live again. However, this seems to contrast with His next statement:

" and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Now at first glance these statements don't go together. If those who die believing in Him will live again, how can He say that those who live and believe will never die? Either they die and are raised, or they don't die. How can it be both?

To understand this we need to remember Martha's comment which is the context. She mentions the resurrection, AT THE LAST DAYS. At the last days we see that

a. those who are dead are raised to life
b. those who are alive are caught up to be with Jesus.

These two elements of the last day resurrection are spelled out well in 1Thessalonians 4

1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

So in this context Jesus' statement makes perfect sense. Those who are dead and believed will live when He comes. Those who are alive won't have to die, they will be caught up.

The story then concludes with a small view of what that day will be like. In 1 Thessalonians and in John 5 we see Jesus saying that He will call out to the dead and they will be raised from the grave. Now Jesus calls out to the sleeping Lazarus, and raises him from the dead.

JN 11:28 And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. "The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you." 29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

JN 11:32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."

JN 11:33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34 "Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.

JN 11:35 Jesus wept.

JN 11:36 Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

JN 11:37 But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?"

JN 11:38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 "Take away the stone," he said.
"But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."

JN 11:40 Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

JN 11:41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

JN 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
 
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tall73

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The story of the rich man and Lazarus that Jesus told has rightly raised questions about the view that people rest in the grave. How are we to understand this text if that is the case?

I readily admit that this text does speak of a discussion between dead people. But I intend to show that the story is perhaps not so much a story of the actual happenings after death, but a story meant to show a particular point, and may in some places be highly figurative. The view of disembodied souls living on after death was familiar to Jesus' audience as the hellenistic culture of the Greeks/Macedonians had long before been exported by Alexander the great throughout his empire. So Jesus referring to commonly known stories, while a bit confusing , might not be all that unusual.

If you disagree with this analysis, fair enough. Just give it a fair reading. I take the view of this text both because of the internal evidence, and because of the seemingly overwhelming evidence throughout the Bible that supports death being a sleep, as listed above.

The first argument in this regard is the context of the story. Earlier in chapter 16 we see Jesus telling the story of the dishonest steward. After this story Jesus directly addresses the love of money in the Pharisees:
K 16:14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

He then gives two brief notes on different topics, then comes to this story. It seems to have an even harder hitting point about the use of wealth.

Here is the text.

LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

As is often the case in Jesus' stories we have two contrasting figures here. The rich man, with all the things he could want, and the beggar who is hungry, has sores and even has dogs harassing him. Clearly the contrast in intentional, just as with the stories of the pharisee and the tax collector, and the widow and the judge.

Here the story is meant to show how our current life situation and actions effect our future life.

LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

At this point I would like to point out some of the purely figurative elements in this story.

A. Father Abraham is in charge of the righteous dead. I think it goes without saying that we don't see this in any other passage. The closest we come are the passages that speak of going to rest with the fathers. But in these cases it is often clear that is in the grave.

B. Heaven and Hell are in plain view of each other. I am not sure we would teach that either. Some, simply on the basis of this text, have taken the idea that all the dead went to one place until Jesus died and rose, then the division was made with people in heaven. But since this is never stated in the Bible, I am not sure this is a terribly valid argument.

C. We have an apparently disembodied spirit, or some would have us believe he is, who is wanting water, just enough to cool his tongue. How would a spirit benefit from water? And how would cooling ones tongue help with such torment? It is clearly meant to stress the severity of the punishment.

D. Jesus earlier said:
MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus seems to teach not that we suffer forever in hell, but that both the body and the soul are destroyed in hell. This is really a whole other topic, but an interesting one nonetheless. The words often translated as hell in the NT are often different, and some of them refer to a holding place for evil forces, and others to fiery punishment, and destruction. In any case, for now it is sufficient to note that Jesus teaches both body and soul will be destroyed in hell. Either this is a disembodied spirit here with Lazarus, which doesn't fit Jesus' teaching, or perhaps, as the story reads, the angels carried the whole body there, which doesn't seem to fit the common notion of spirits being in hell.


LK 16:25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
[/qoute]

This appears to be the main point of the story.

A. this life effects the next
B. a great gulf is fixed, you can't switch after you die. This life is where it is decided.

LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

LK 16:29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

LK 16:30 " `No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

LK 16:31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

This last bit is fascinating. Here Jesus is making a direct swipe at the disbelieving pharisees. Not only is he accusing them of loving money, but He is saying they refuse to believe, and this belief will hurt their future life.

Notice he says they will not believe even if someone raises from the dead. Who was it in the story that was supposed to go back from the dead to warn them? Lazarus. A direct reference to what Jesus was in fact going to do, which illustrated the way death works quite clearly. (See my earlier post)

In fact, Jesus prophecy was true. When Lazarus, the real Lazarus, was raised from the dead, they did not believe:

JN 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

JN 11:45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."

While Jesus' story contains elements that relate to life immediately after death, they are clearly a part of a figurative story meant to relate a warning to the pharisees.

In looking at the other texts that speak of death in the Bible I then understand this story to be simply meant to prove one point, not teach all kinds of facts about what happens at death.
 
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DeaconDean

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I really hate to get in this debate again but...i believe the gospel when Jesus said the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell being in torments and seen Lazarus in Abrahams bosom being comforted. I believe this is a valid picture of what awaits the believer and unbeliever alike. If we stay in our grave until the day of Christ's return, who appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration? Moses and Elijiah, Peter said Lord it's good for us to be here, let us erect three altars, one to Moses, one to Elijiah, and one to you. (Matt. 17:1-4) Surely you're not saying Jesus lied when Moses and Elijiah appeared? Jesus said Abraham was glad to see His arrival and rejoiced in it. Abraham had been dead for 3000 years, so if he was in his grave how could he have seen and been happy at Jesus' arrival? (John 8:56) If we stay in our graves until Jesus returns, whom did the witch of Endor call back for Saul? The Prophet Samuel! 1 Sam. 28:3-20 If Samuel was in his grave, how did he know what God had in store for Saul's kingdom? But that's just my opinion.
 
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tall73

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Good questions!

First of all, I will look now at the transfiguration question. The endor one I also plan to address, but it is nearly bed time here :) So tomorrow I will. I suppose i also have time for the question on Abraham.

But the transfiguration one is beautifully simple.

Elijah....taken to heaven alive, if you recall the story, in a chariot of fire. So no problem there.

Moses, and this one is fascinating, actually did have his body recovered. We find this in Jude. Now, not only is it fascinating, but notable for it being the EXCEPTION.

Here is the text that references it:

JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

Now it is interesting to note that the passage that Jude quotes from here is actually a non-cannonical work ,"The Assumption of Moses." Or we should say, we think it is. See we don't have the whole thing anymore. But Clement, Origin and Didymus attested to this. It recounts how Moses' body was recovered.

But in any case, Jude attests to this story by mentioning Michael disupting with the devil over the body of Moses.

So we can assume that Moses was also quite literally in heaven, with his body.

A side question of course is whether Jude considered the whole work of the Assumption of Moses to be inspired. We are not really told on that. He also makes a reference to another non-cannonical work, The Book of Enoch.


Now the Abraham passage is a bit less plain in my opinion...but then again, it is less plain for both sides of the argument.

JN 8:54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

JN 8:57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

JN 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

First of all, the reference was at this point already in the past. Abraham already saw his day. The fact that this was perhaps in vision in his own time, or through a christophony is indicated by Jesus response. He does not say "Yeah, Abraham saw me in heaven." He says

"Before Abraham was born, I AM."

In other words, being around for Abraham's time was not a big issue. We also see at least one possible christophony in Abraham talking to God before He destroyed Sodom.

Now, let's look at the logical possibilities then.

Since it was in the past that he saw Jesus' day it would have to be either that

a. He saw him in vision, or in some other means, looking into the future
b. He was dead, went to heaven, and was there to witness Jesus going to earth, being born etc. and growing to a man. Maybe, but then Jesus, being on earth now , would not really be privey to all this, rejoicing or otherwise, since He was now born a baby. Or perhaps you could say he died, and saw Jesus in heaven. But the reference seems to be to Jesus' work on earth.

So in light of these options, and the response of Jesus, I favor that Abraham saw it through some means from his time. The facts are that Jesus is revealing that He was around even then, so Abraham would be able to see His day as it was no new plan. Even Abraham's near sacrifice of his son pointed forward to Jesus' day. He saw the plan of salvation marked out through it. God will provide a lamb.

In fact, commentators such as Gill . who have no burden for the idea of the dead sleeping, since they disagree with it, also attest that they see this meaning in it.

Here is his comment, similar in thought to my own:

He saw it with an eye of faith, he saw it in the promise, that in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; and when it was promised him he should have a son, which was the beginning of the fulfilment of the other, he laughed, and therefore his son was called Isaac, to which some reference is here made; he saw him in the birth of his son Isaac and rejoiced, and therefore called his name Isaac, that is, "laughter": he saw also Christ and his day, his sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, in a figure; in the binding of Isaac, in the sacrifice of the ram, and in the receiving of Isaac, as from the dead; and he not only saw the Messiah in his type Melchizedek, and who some think was the Son of God himself, but he saw the second person, the promised Messiah, in an human form, Gen_18:2; and all this was matter of joy and gladness to him.


But the real question is, which is easier, to explain away a few texts that are hard to figure out, or the many, many ones that I listed above that seem to clearly call death a sleep, talk of a last day resurrection, speak of a delayed reward, etc. ?

I think you will find that while there may be a few questions on the texts you mentioned, many of them can be explained. But to take the other view you have to explain away a lot of texts.

I will make an effort to do the Endor one tomorrow. It too is a fascinating story.
 
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soblessed53

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None of us goes anywhere but to the grave until we are resurrected..

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now we must deal with the penitent thief on the cross. Most of those who believe that any Christian who dies, goes straight to heaven, use the penitent thief as their example. They say, "See, Jesus took the thief to heaven the same day He died." Take a close look at this text (Lk 23:43) and you will see that Jesus never mentioned heaven but instead, spoke only of paradise.
Paradise is not, in and of itself, a place but a state of being. The garden of God, called Eden, was a paradise, a place of serene beauty and tranquility; a place of abundance where all needs were met. Certainly heaven is a paradise, but is it the only paradise of God? Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in paradise on that same day, but did Jesus ascend into heaven on that first day? The answer is NO! If Jesus didn't ascend into heaven the day He was crucified, then how could the penitent thief get there?
Matt 12:40
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
10.24]
Jesus remained three days in the center of the earth and didn't ascend to His father until after this period had been completed. Even when He appeared to Mary Magdalene, He instructed her not to touch Him. Why? Because He had not yet ascended.
John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
[10.25]
Further proof of this can be seen in Paul's letter to the Ephesians where it is quite clear that Christ, before ascending, descended into the lower parts of the earth where He led captivity captive.
Eph 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
John 3:13: “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.”
ACTS 2:29, 34: “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day….For it was not David who ascended into heaven….”
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he says himself, ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit you on my right hand, Until I make your foes your footstool.’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ.’”
Acts 2:25–36
 
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livingproofGM

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EZE 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Yes, when we sin, our souls are dead in the sins we have commited. It does not say that when we diea bodily death, our souls are dead.
MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I think we would ALL agree that once we are in hell, our souls are dead.

1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The bodily dead. This passage speaks of the resurrection of bodies. In Christ, we will be made alive.
 
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Mikecpking

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livingproofGM said:
Yes, when we sin, our souls are dead in the sins we have commited. It does not say that when we diea bodily death, our souls are dead.

I think we would ALL agree that once we are in hell, our souls are dead.


The bodily dead. This passage speaks of the resurrection of bodies. In Christ, we will be made alive.

The soul is not dead when we sin! The soul has nothing to do with 'our real self' or anything like that. That thinking comes from Greek philosophy, not the bible. The soul is, if you like, your life force, or vital life for want of a better analogy. The 'life' dissappears at death, the spirit returns to God, at resurrection, we are given new bodies etc.
 
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