Do Tolkien (LOTR etc) and CS Lewis (Narnia) promote witchcraft?

Do Tolkien (LOTR etc) and CS Lewis (Narnia) promote witchcraft?


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Isilwen

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According to Scripture, believers are all kings and priests in Christ.

“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:6).​

So there is no such thing as a guy called a “priest” among the body of believers in the New Covenant.
That was Old Covenant, and this is not the way of the New Covenant. Our heavenly high priest is Jesus Christ and He sits at the right hand of God the Father.

You said you have learned much from priests:

Well, learning (listening) is one thing, but we must be doers of the Word (James 1:22). We are told to preach the Word (2 Timothy 4:2). But naturally: When the Word is on the inside of us, we cannot help but to speak it and to live it (by obeying our Lord according to His words).

“Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:13-16).

“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

I'll listen to my priest over you. I am also a doer, not just a listener and thought maybe by saying I have heard plenty would imply that I also do.

I just don't do according to you. You know what
 
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I'll listen to my priest over you. I am also a doer, not just a listener and thought maybe by saying I have heard plenty would imply that I also do.

If you are a doer of the Word, then why do not preach the Word with me? 2 Timothy 4:2 says for us to preach the Word.

You said:
I just don't do according to you. You know what

I use Scripture to back up what I have stated. In fact, I believe that our faith in how we walk must be supported by the Bible. So if there is a disagreement surely we can go over those Scriptures.
 
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You still haven't a clue. When you do find it, let me know!

If one believes they have a right to watch Narnia, surely there must be a biblical basis for the practice. For where do we see Paul, and or the other apostles endorse witchcraft as long as it is in a fantasy setting? I see Jesus actually condemn the fantasy of lusting after a woman in Matthew 5:28-30. Jesus referred to how this person can be cast bodily into hellfire by doing so. The apostle John said that if any man hates his brother, he is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). This is yet another mind sin. So sin can be done in the mind. So if we fantasize about sinful things that God hates like say witchcraft, I do not see it as much different than say other mind sins that the Bible condemns. For Jesus wanted to clear up the correction that sin is not just something you do physically like in committing physical adultery, but one can commit adultery in their heart, too. I believe that if we feast our eyes upon sinful things that God hates (like say witchcraft in fantasy settings), we are in essence committing the sin of witchcraft in our heart. For viewing the sin of witchcraft in a fantasy setting should repulse a believer because God hates witchcraft.
 
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I'll listen to my priest over you. I am also a doer, not just a listener and thought maybe by saying I have heard plenty would imply that I also do.

I just don't do according to you. You know what

My words alone outside of God's Word do not have any substance. So you should not listen to my words, or your priest's words if they do not line up with Scripture. You should only listen to what the Word of God says. That is where I derive my authority from when I speak of the matters of the faith. 2 Timothy 2:15 says to study to show yourself approved unto God.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

1 John 2:27 says that we can have the Anointing (the Holy Spirit) whereby we do not need any man to teach us.
 
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Isaiah 2:22

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Anyways, I know most do not want to see the truth on this topic (even if they were to read this article).

You mean your "truth". THE truth is that Tolkien and Lewis were both devout Christian men who have led countless people to Christ through their writings. How many have you led to Christ?

So I am moving on.
May you all be in peace in the Lord.

LOL You "moved on" for less than two hours and the very next post is also yours. This obsessive need of yours to convert other Christians to your line of thinking is worrisome and unhealthy. Read Romans 14 and then go minister to some Wiccans if you are that concerned about witchcraft. I can't say they'd welcome you, but at least you'd be persistent.
 
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3. I haven't read The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Have you? According to Wikipedia (not the ideal source but it does provide references)

While I do not think Wikipedia is always correct on everything (like say history or the Bible), that does not mean they don't get basic things like movies correct.

A person can simply Google it and read about a dozen pages or articles on the movie that talks about it. A person can also just rent the movie skip through it to confirm that such a scene is in the film. I am sure that it will confirm to a person that Lucy casts a spell.

You said:
which is rather different from your "I remember that Lucy was one of the good characters."
Remember no one is good but God. Maybe you need to think of the meaning of the whole story rather than lifting one small part from its context and attacking that.

It is true that nobody is good but God, but Christians are also called saints for a reason, too. So is this a contradiction in Scripture? By no means. The good that Christians do is the Lord working through them. In other words, God does the good work through believers. So when they preach, they help the poor, and they love the brethren while abiding in God, it is the Lord who does the good work. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So nobody is good alone APART from God. We abide in His good ways after we are saved by God's grace. if we turn back to abide in sin and evil, then we will be judged for such things and be condemned unless we repent of such things (of course).

4. Comparing reading a "spell" from a book to "explicit sex scenes" is a category error. One could generate a work of fiction where a "spell" is simply random words taken from a history textbook, say. So what would actually be shown (if filmed) is someone reading a few random words from a book with no connection to magic spells. The fiction would be that it was a magic spell but that would only be the case in the fiction not the reality.

Narnia is required reading by certain witches. This is because C.S. Lewis was into the occult and he wrote of the occult in his Narnia series. In Narnia, we see pagan gods, spell casting, etc. Spell casting is sorcery in our real world. We cannot change this sin into a fantasy setting. Spell casting (sorcery) is condemned in Revelation 21:8. Sorcerers will be cast into the Lake of Fire. So if we fantasize about Lucy casting spells, we must realize that she would be cast into the Lake of Fire because she would be a sorcerer in God's eyes. We cannot turn sin into a fantasy. Yet, when I bring up sexual immorality like say inappropriate content it becomes a different matter. Why is that?

On the other hand, a sex scene shown in a work of fiction would still be a sex scene in reality even if it was part of a work of fiction.

Right because sex is real. Just as sorcery done by witches today is real.

“Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,” (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Later he wrote in Surprised by Joy
"I do not mean that Miss C did this, better say the Enemy did this in me"
Which means Lewis rejects occultism.
Now do you mean that only people who are sinless should write Christian books?
If you think so then why are you writing on this forum?
You seem to be applying a standard to C S Lewis you are not prepared to apply to yourself.

C.S. Lewis might have claimed he was Christian, and this may be true at the end of his life or on his deathbed, but he also claimed that he struggled with the occult and it shows in his writings. He also believed in Evolution. He believed Adam and Eve were not literal people. He believes much of the Old Testament is mythical. He denies the Substitutionary Atonement. He believes people of other religions (who continue in that religion and don't change) can be saved. He believes that a belief in a literal Satan is not necessary as a part of the Christian faith. He believes that the Bible has errors in it. He believes that other books besides the Bible can be inspired (Note: See these statements are taken from his own quotes at the following link in this post).

In fact, here is a quote by C.S. Lewis on Jesus' prophecy of the End Times:

"Say what you like," we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. It is certainly the most embarassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement"

While he may be a Christian, his statement above here does not appear to be Christian like in being support of what the Scriptures say, and yet people are eating up his occult fantasy books like candy.

Narnia portrays characters that are from real life paganism (i.e. the occult). The faun that Lucy runs into is Pan (who is a god of lust). What is a god of lust doing when he hangs out with a little girl by himself? There are other pagan gods mentioned, as well.

p. 192 - "Bacchus and the Maenads --- his fierce, madcap girls --- and Silenus, were still with them. Lucy, fully rested, jumped up. Everyone was awake, everyone was laughing, flutes were playing, cymbals clashing. Animals, not Talking Animals, were crowding in upon them from every direction.
" 'What is it, Aslan?' said Lucy, her eyes dancing and her feet wanting to dance.
" 'Come, children," said he. 'Ride on my back again to-day.' "
" 'Oh lovely!' cried Lucy, and both girls climbed on to the warm golden back as they had done no-one knew how many years before. Then the whole party moved off --- Aslan leading. Bacchus and his Maenads leaping, rushing and turning somersaults, the beasts frisking round them, and Silenus and his donkey bringing up the rear." [Emphasis added.]

Now, note here that Lewis actually names the Maenads and describes them as "fierce". To complete the description of this devil worship for your children to mimic in their play, he adds the flutes and cymbals, and animals are brought in, though their fate at the hands of the Maenads is carefully excluded.

He also describes them going down a hill into town where they found a girls' school. The girls were dressed in ugly tight collars, thick stockings and tight hairdos. The teacher and class all fled in terror except one girl. Aslan called her "sweetheart" and asked her to join his wild crowd, which she did. She was instantly dancing with the Maenads who helped her take off some of her "unnecessary" and uncomfortable clothes!

So, Lewis is telling your children that in order to be part of this wild bunch (which he portrays as fun), they must join in the dancing and take off some of their clothes!

This sounds remarkably similar to one of the accounts in the Bible -- the occasion on which Aaron made the golden calf and Israel worshipped it with a wild feast and dancing party. When Moses got back down the mountain, he confronted Aaron and received a stupid excuse. Then we read,

Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies ; 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. 27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

From this account we can see that the LORD does not look lightly on this sort of thing. Allowing C.S. Lewis to teach your children such heathenism is perilous to say the least!

Source used for the latter half of this post.
C.S. Lewis depths of Satan, Chronicles of Narnia, Dionysus
Other source used to reference C.S. Lewis' false beliefs:
CS LEWIS – The most beloved heretic

You said:
God bless you.
Vanellus

May God bless you, as well (even if we disagree with Scripture strongly).
 
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All I am hearing is a banging gong.

There, there's scripture for you!

If you are referring to 1 Corinthians 13:1, you must also read this verse that says:

“Charity... thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;” (1 Corinthians 13:4-6).

Is not witchcraft evil?
 
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Isilwen

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If you are referring to 1 Corinthians 13:1, you must also read this verse that says:

“Charity... thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;” (1 Corinthians 13:4-6).

Is not witchcraft evil? So why would be thinking about that which is evil by watching Narnia movies that has witchcraft in them? Do we rejoice in such films that promote witchcraft? Or are we rejoicing in the truth of God's Word?

And this is why I won't discuss scripture with you. You can never take what is being told to you and actually see what we're saying to you.

You have this "I am always right and you are always wrong" in your writing. Even when scripture shown to you to prove our point, we're wrong and you are right.

So, no, I will not discuss scripture with someone who thinks they are perfect and no one else understands scripture other than you!
 
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You mean your "truth". THE truth is that Tolkien and Lewis were both devout Christian men who have led countless people to Christ through their writings. How many have you led to Christ?

How many did Noah convince to come on the boat with him?
I mean, a prosperity preacher can lead somebody to Christ, but it does not mean their prosperity teaching is true, and neither does it mean they cannot be lead astray by prosperity teaching. I believe we are living in the last days as per 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

You said:
LOL You "moved on" for less than two hours and the very next post is also yours. This obsessive need of yours to convert other Christians to your line of thinking is worrisome and unhealthy.

Jesus said narrow is the way.
 
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And this is why I won't discuss scripture with you. You can never take what is being told to you and actually see what we're saying to you.

You have this "I am always right and you are always wrong" in your writing. Even when scripture shown to you to prove our point, we're wrong and you are right.

So, no, I will not discuss scripture with someone who thinks they are perfect and no one else understands scripture other than you!

Actually, I have changed my views over the years on many different topics.

You can check out all my different views on how they have changed over the years in this thread here:

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?
 
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Isilwen

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This just shows how little you know me. For example: On another Christian forum, there was a woman who was really hateful with her words towards me, and she was OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). In my defense of trying to prove past sins only are forgiven from the Bible to her, I quoted Romans 3:25. I did this because this is what other Christians have used as their argument. But this OSAS woman said I was taking Romans 3:25 out of context. So I went back and read the verse in context to the chapter and I looked at the verse in several different translations. God talked to my heart in showing me this verse is actually talking about those who sinned while under the Old Covenant. I went back and apologized to her about my misunderstanding on the verse.

In fact, I have changed my views over the years on many different topics.

You can check out all my different views on how they have changed over the years in this thread here:

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

Yet, time and time again I have seen the opposite in these threads. Others have pointed it out to you as well, so I am not the only one.

I'm sorry, but you haven't changed all that much!
 
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Yet, time and time again I have seen the opposite in these threads. Others have pointed it out to you as well, so I am not the only one.

I'm sorry, but you haven't changed all that much!

The thread I created proves otherwise that I am capable of change if I am shown God's Word.
 
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Yet, time and time again I have seen the opposite in these threads. Others have pointed it out to you as well, so I am not the only one.

I'm sorry, but you haven't changed all that much!

I will give you another example of a change in my beliefs in God's Word that happened a couple of months back (that I did not list in the thread link I posted to you). I used to believe that all faithful OT saints abided in the Holy Spirit. But this changed when I came across Numbers 11:29 again.

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:29).​

After talking it over with a few brothers at work, I have come to the conclusion that only kings and prophets had the Holy Spirit living in them in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, it was an entirely new and revolutionary thing. The Holy Spirit would live inside all genuine faithful believers in Jesus Christ. This is such a beautiful truth.

Anyways, to my knowledge there appears to be 19 things I have changed in my beliefs involving God's Word over the years. So I am open to change and correction by God's Word. Sometimes another may correct me, and other times God corrects me in my rereading of a verse or passage.
 
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Taodeching

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You mean your "truth". THE truth is that Tolkien and Lewis were both devout Christian men who have led countless people to Christ through their writings. How many have you led to Christ?



LOL You "moved on" for less than two hours and the very next post is also yours. This obsessive need of yours to convert other Christians to your line of thinking is worrisome and unhealthy. Read Romans 14 and then go minister to some Wiccans if you are that concerned about witchcraft. I can't say they'd welcome you, but at least you'd be persistent.

It seems BH is way to stubborn to think about anything beyond his ideas. This is a great lesson not to be so inflexible in one's ways that you accuse Christians like CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien of being devils. It is the same judgement Christ speaks against but when one becomes so inflexible and unwilling to learn the truth over the lies judgement is all they can do, which is a very sad way to live
 
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It seems BH is way to stubborn to think about anything beyond his ideas. This is a great lesson not to be so inflexible in one's ways that you accuse Christians like CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien of being devils. It is the same judgement Christ speaks against but when one becomes so inflexible and unwilling to learn the truth over the lies judgement is all they can do, which is a very sad way to live

C.S. Lewis might have claimed he was Christian, and he may have been a Christian towards the end of his life or on his deathbed. Only God knows. But he also claimed that he struggled with the occult and it shows in his writings. He also believed in Evolution. He believed Adam and Eve were not literal people. He believes much of the Old Testament is mythical. He denies the Substitutionary Atonement. He believes people of other religions (who continue in that religion and don't change) can be saved. He believes that a belief in a literal Satan is not necessary as a part of the Christian faith. He believes that the Bible has errors in it. He believes that other books besides the Bible can be inspired.

In fact, here is a quote by C.S. Lewis on Jesus' prophecy of the End Times:

"Say what you like," we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. It is certainly the most embarassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement"

This above statement is not in line with what I believe is Christianity, and yet people are eating up his occult fantasy books like candy.

Narnia portrays characters that are from real life paganism (i.e. the occult). The faun that Lucy runs into is Pan (who is a god of lust). What is a god of lust doing when he hangs out with a little girl by himself? There are other pagan gods mentioned, as well.

p. 192 - "Bacchus and the Maenads --- his fierce, madcap girls --- and Silenus, were still with them. Lucy, fully rested, jumped up. Everyone was awake, everyone was laughing, flutes were playing, cymbals clashing. Animals, not Talking Animals, were crowding in upon them from every direction.
" 'What is it, Aslan?' said Lucy, her eyes dancing and her feet wanting to dance.
" 'Come, children," said he. 'Ride on my back again to-day.' "
" 'Oh lovely!' cried Lucy, and both girls climbed on to the warm golden back as they had done no-one knew how many years before. Then the whole party moved off --- Aslan leading. Bacchus and his Maenads leaping, rushing and turning somersaults, the beasts frisking round them, and Silenus and his donkey bringing up the rear." [Emphasis added.]

Now, note here that Lewis actually names the Maenads and describes them as "fierce". To complete the description of this devil worship for your children to mimic in their play, he adds the flutes and cymbals, and animals are brought in, though their fate at the hands of the Maenads is carefully excluded.

He also describes them going down a hill into town where they found a girls' school. The girls were dressed in ugly tight collars, thick stockings and tight hairdos. The teacher and class all fled in terror except one girl. Aslan called her "sweetheart" and asked her to join his wild crowd, which she did. She was instantly dancing with the Maenads who helped her take off some of her "unnecessary" and uncomfortable clothes!

So, Lewis is telling your children that in order to be part of this wild bunch (which he portrays as fun), they must join in the dancing and take off some of their clothes!

This sounds remarkably similar to one of the accounts in the Bible -- the occasion on which Aaron made the golden calf and Israel worshipped it with a wild feast and dancing party. When Moses got back down the mountain, he confronted Aaron and received a stupid excuse. Then we read,

Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies ; 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. 27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

From this account we can see that the LORD does not look lightly on this sort of thing. Allowing C.S. Lewis to teach your children such heathenism is perilous to say the least!

Source used for the latter half of this post.
C.S. Lewis depths of Satan, Chronicles of Narnia, Dionysus
Other source used to reference C.S. Lewis' false beliefs:
CS LEWIS – The most beloved heretic
 
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BH I had enough with your false judgements to the Saints, I should report you for defamation of fellow Christians but I will show your mercy and just place you on ignore.

Thank you for being merciful with me.
Peace be unto you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Side Note:

I do believe C.S. Lewis may have been Christian towards the end of his life or on his deathbed. Only God knows. But I do not agree that he was abiding with Christ when he wrote Narnia. For the series promotes witchcraft with no rebuke of such a thing.
 
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