Do this prove or disprove anything?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don`t think that`s true because if Jesus or god hasn`t showed themselves to them so they actually know about their option they can`t perish

This is simply a common sin and deception, again.

 

[Pulchra]

This is simply a common sin and deception, again.

perhaps, but christinanity is just made up also

 

[Pulchra]

"Tortured for Christ" , by Richard Wurbrandt, noted the same feeling - He did not believe in the so-called Messiah Jesus who he saw in other people's lives and preaching (a false Jesus was what he saw there, and He knew the Bible, and they did not know the Bible).

Later, an old man in a mountain town in switzerland I think, prayed to God for God to send to him a Jew to witness to, because the old man could not travel to find a Jew to witness to.
God brought Richard Wurmbrandt to him, and he witnessed the TRUTH to Richard, from Scripture, and from his own life, about Jesus Messiah.

Richard then saw the truth in this man, in his words, in Scripture, about the true Jesus.
Richard believed, was baptized and was saved, and became a minister of the Gospel thereafter.

He helped others who had rejected a false jesus, to see the true Jesus, and they also were saved by the truth, in truth.

there will come a time when you believers will have to face your rejection of others because of your false believes and your strive for perfection and you have to deal with just being a human being again and accept others

 

[Acts2:38]

Well, I`m not rebllious, but I don`t really want to follow jesus

I have read some of your recent posts to another poster, and I could be wrong forgive me, but it seems like you have already made your decision about God and a Christians belief/ faith in Christ Jesus.

You state on your profile that your an Agnostic, yet your answers and discussion recently, is geared more toward being an Atheist. Agnostics, by definition, are people trapped in a "grey area" or what we call "fence straddlers". They have not made a decision if there is a God or not. They live there lives as if there is no way to prove one way or another, so they are undecided what to believe. Atheist are 100% certain there is no God, regardless of their lack of evidence.

So, by the very definition, you would be an Atheist, not an Agnostic. I'll have you know though, it takes MORE faith to be an Atheist than it does to be a Christian. Because Atheists cannot prove that God does not exist, nor will they ever. It is impossible for them to do so. They cannot observe everything or create and recreate tests as science would state for one. Secondly science proves more so that there is a intelligent being as a creator of all things than it doesn't.

Take these few simple laws that EVERYONE virtually agrees on (including Atheists).

1st and 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Law of Causality
Law of Biogenesis

To go into further detail please allow me to quote a man by the name of Keith Sharp. Its a small read, but it drives the point home.

Quote:
In 1986 a famous visitor made a brief tour of the inner solar system. A luminous body with a long, faint tail hurried on its journey around the sun and returned to the recesses of space. The British astronomer Edmond Halley observed this phenomenon in 1682 and, based on the times of similar sightings in the past, correctly predicted it would return in 1758. He was quite correct, and this body, which circles the sun about every seventy-five years in its highly elongated orbit, became known as Halley's comet. In the eighteenth century astronomers worked out a complex formula, based on Newton's theory of gravity, to accurately predict the orbits of comets.

So, what's the point? The Hebrew king and poet David asserted that the universe itself declares the glory of God. "The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And the firmament is declaring the work of His hands" (Psalm 19:1).

The purpose of this study is to demonstrate that the existence and predictable operation of the physical universe, comets included, will lead an honest, intelligent inquirer to believe in the existence of God.

It Is a Matter of Faith
The scientific method of study, called the "empirical method"" is observation and experimentation. For something to be truly a matter of science, it must be measurably observed and the event must be repeatable under the same essential circumstances at different times and places. If scientists cannot "see" something happen and set up a situation (experiment) at another time and place so that the same thing happens again, it is not a scientific matter.

For example, who was the first European to discover the Americas? This question is historical, not scientific. We cannot observe the discovery of America, nor can we experimentally repeat it. Scientific evidence, such as that gained by archaeologists, may be studied, but essentially the inquiry is historical rather than scientific.

The God revealed in the Bible is spirit (John 4:24) and has no material existence (Luke 24:39). He is invisible to man (l Timothy 6:16). God cannot be put into a test tube. I cannot demonstrate by observation and experimentation that God exists, but neither can the atheist prove He does not. To do so, the atheist would have to be able to observe all portions of the universe at the same time in both the material and spiritual realm. In other words, to prove by observation that there is no God, one would have to be God. The existence of God is not a question of science but of faith.

This does not mean it is unreasonable to believe in God. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). The word "conviction" is translated "evidence" by the New King James Version. "Faith" is conviction about something we do not see based on evidence.

I believe that Christopher Columbus saw one of the islands of the West Indies on October 12, 1492. I did not and cannot see this happen, and I cannot repeat this in an experiment. But my faith rests on clear, compelling historical evidence. It is a reasonable faith. I believe the same is true of my faith in God.

First Argument
Please consider with me three principles of natural science that provide powerful, logical evidence for our faith in the existence of God.

Law of Causality
The first principle of science is the Law of Causality (Buffaloe 6). In essence, it states there must be an adequate cause for every effect. This principle is the basis of scientific inquiry. Natural science deals with the material universe and correctly looks for natural causes to natural events. Scientists properly attribute an earthquake to the movement of tectonic plates. Whether the hand of God is behind it is not their business as scientists.

But natural causes can only explain so much. Eventually, one is forced back to the uncaused First Cause. It is the ageless question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" The backward chain of events must come to rest somewhere.

First Law of Thermodynamics
Perhaps the most basic principle of physics is The First Law of Thermodynamics. This law "states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed but can be changed in form" (Buffaloe 76). High school chemistry students learn to balance chemical equations. Everything that goes into the chemical process must be accounted for in the product. Nothing comes out of a chemical process that was not put into it, and whatever is put into the process comes out in one form or another.

The First Law precludes the reasonable possibility that energy came into being by natural causes; since, in the natural world, "energy can neither be created nor destroyed."

Second Law of Thermodynamics
This important principle of physics holds that energy tends to dissipate itself ... In other words, the second law relates energy changes in a system to the organization of that system. Placed in this context, it states that there is an increase in entropy (disorder or randomness) - that is, a decrease in organization. Since useful energy is organized energy, an increase in entropy means a decrease in useful energy (Buffaloe 77).

According to the Second Law, usable energy in a closed system tends to decrease. Things tend to disorder, not to order. As we drive our cars down the highway, we don't stop to let gasoline (the energy source) out; rather, we must stop to put more in. The usable energy is converted to motion and heat.

Think!
Now, please think with me. Either the material universe does exist, or it does not. Of course, to be rational, we must accept its real existence. Otherwise, there is no such thing as science, the study of the material universe; and our senses, upon which we depend to gain all accurate information, are totally untrustworthy.

Further, either the physical universe has always existed, or it had a beginning. The cosmos has an immeasurably huge amount of usable energy. Our sun, one small star among numberless stars that compose the Milky Way galaxy, itself one of myriads of galaxies, converts 4,700,000 tons of its own mass into radiant energy each second (Britannica Macropaedia. 17:808). If the universe were infinitely old, all usable energy would have dissipated in the infinite past. Thus, the cosmos had a beginning.

Atheists once looked to matter and energy as the uncaused first causes. Recent research in nuclear physics has further revealed the very essence of matter. Physicists now describe energy particles which compose electrons, protons, and neutrons; which, in turn, are the components of the atom. In other words, behind all matter is energy. Before there was matter, there was energy. The only prime mover atheists can propose is mindless energy.

The question, then, is: Is mindless energy an adequate first cause? Either energy is the uncaused first cause; or there must be a supernatural, i.e., outside and above the realm of the natural, uncaused first cause. But, since energy cannot be infinitely old (Second Law, i.e., entropy), energy cannot be the uncaused first cause. Therefore, we must look for a supernatural origin of the universe.

As our Explorer satellites ranged deeper into space, past Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Uranus, and their systems, and finally out of the solar system into the unfathomable recesses of the abyss beyond, pictures of incredible varieties of chemical and physical forms hitherto unimagined were sent back to earth. Yet in all this infinite variety is found order. The basic laws of physics and chemistry which have been found operable in our experience on earth apply as well in these remote worlds. The Law of Gravity applies precisely the same on Uranus as it does on Earth. Our universe has amazing order in incomprehensible complexity.

How does one explain such order in diversity? Energy is the only answer available to the atheist. The universe as a whole must be viewed as a closed system, and energy in a closed system tends to disorder, not order (Second Law). Thus, again we are forced to look for a supernatural beginning of the cosmos.

Law of Biogenesis
One of the basic principles of biology is The Law of Biogenesis: "Thus far, life seems to come only from prior life in an unbroken chain, at least under conditions that prevail at present on earth" (Buffaloe 114). The fact is, there is no compelling evidence that life can possibly come from nonlife under any conditions, and the evidence is against the existence in ancient times of the imagined conditions under which life might supposedly have evolved by natural means. The consistent result of hundreds of years of experimentation about the origin of life has been and continues to be that life comes only from prior life.

Think!
Either life exists on the earth, or it does not. Again, to be rational, we accept the existence of life on Earth.

Further, either life has always existed on earth, or it had a beginning. Since life and the earth are parts of the universe, which had to have a beginning, life had to have begun here sometime.

Finally, either life came from natural causes or supernatural. The consistent experience of science is that life does not naturally arise from nonlife, nor has any experiment ever been conducted under any conditions, which demonstrates that it can. Thus, if we are reasonable, we must accept a supernatural origin of life on earth.

What Kind of Supernatural First Cause?
In Romans chapter one the apostle Paul shows why the Gentiles needed the gospel. They had rejected the knowledge of God and were inexcusable for so doing. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

We should mentally see (understand) what is behind those things we physically see. There must be an adequate cause (Law of Causality) for the existence of the universe. What do we understand when we see the material universe?

There must be incomprehensible power behind such an awesome expanse, infinite intelligence to bring order to such endless variety, and will to accomplish purpose. There must be eternal existence to qualify as the uncaused First Cause. The attributes of intelligence and will show this Cause to be a Person, i.e., a Being possessing personality. Having eternal existence and infinite power and intelligence, this Person must be supernatural. The Bible calls this Person, who has eternal self-existence, infinite power and intelligence, and will, God.

Conclusion
Imagine, if you will, a print shop containing many reams of paper, gallons of ink, and thousands of sets of type reproducing over and over the twenty-six letters of the alphabet and the numbers zero through nine. Due to a gas leak, one great explosion occurs in this shop. Ink, paper, and type are hurled randomly and violently in all directions. When the dust settles, the smoke clears, and all components come to rest, the result is all thirty volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica in order with no misspelled words or grammatical errors. Incredible?

And yet atheists demand we believe that the universe, infinite in size and complexity, incredibly orderly in function, composed of over one hundred chemical elements in virtually limitless combinations, is the result of a "Big Bang" produced by mindless energy aeons ago. My mind is not capable of such childish, irrational faith.

Incontrovertibly, the existence and predictable operation of the physical universe, in all its parts, will lead an honest, intelligent inquirer to believe in the existence of God. Indeed, "The heavens are telling of the glory of God."

End Quote.

I'd have you know that even ex-Atheist, and well respected mind you, like Dr. A.G. Flew even poke at Agnostics. It seems that the secular world doesn't like a "fence straddler". Dr. Flew, when he was an Atheist, wrote a handful of books bashing on Agnostics for there lack of ability to decide, being wishy washy.

But it does seem like you decided already with your latest posts. You decided to be an Atheist.

By the way, that Atheist Dr. A.G. Flew. Some of the lasts debates he did with Thomas B. Warren (seen on youtube as the Warren-Flew debate) must have triggered something with all the evidence brought upon him. Dr. Flew recanted being an Atheist and then believed in a Creator of all things. Food for thought. Check out the videos on youtube they are still there. Maybe Mr. Warren might say something to help answer your questions.

 

[Acts2:38]

there will come a time when you believers will have to face your rejection of others because of your false believes and your strive for perfection and you have to deal with just being a human being again and accept others

You speak without facts here my friend. And that seems to be merely an opinion without evidence of truth.

A faithful congregation in Christ does not do this. And you cannot lump them in with the rest of the "fakes" who say they follow Christ, but do not. Revelations Chapter 2 and 3 speak of a few churches that were starting to fall away and needed to be restored or else they would be lost.

Anyone is welcome to worship with us. We have had ex-murderers, cons, I myself was a drug dealer and user. Not only that but a brawler also.

All of us had come around to asking important questions of "what happens to us when we die" or "is there more to life than this", so on and so forth. We were all accepted to sit down and worship, hang out with, go here or there with the congregation of believers. They studied with people like us. Answered our questions. discussed and debated with people like us.

I stand here now a believer in Christ. I dont reject people, but I will tell them that God does not tolerate sin. I will tell them their errors using scripture that states such and I will not give them my opinion, but Gods word. They are more than welcome to be with me, but I wont condone nor do anything that compromises my Christian walk with Christ.

By telling someone "thats wrong please dont do that" or "thats wrong I'll have you know" is not rejecting someone, it is correcting them.

There is a few passages in scripture that tell us that Jesus specifically went and hung around sinners. The Jews were actually surprised and a little upset about that. But Jesus made a point to them with scripture like "leaving the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep". Jesus has made that point a few times in the new testament. Why is he going to hang around the already saved? They are already saved. His goal was to bring ALL into salvation, but it has to be their choice.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who ever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16

Whosoever believeth (KJV)

That leaves the choice to you. The sacrifice has been made for you, but you have to choose to.

Unless you are truthfully inquiring and exploring answers to Christianity. Then I believe you should lock and end this thread.

Your latest answers to another poster show that you have decided already, and are no longer an Agnostic, but a full fledged Atheist. Your in the "Exploring Christianity" Section and you are laying down convictions that show otherwise.

 

[Pulchra]

You speak without facts here my friend. And that seems to be merely an opinion without evidence of truth.

A faithful congregation in Christ does not do this. And you cannot lump them in with the rest of the "fakes" who say they follow Christ, but do not. Revelations Chapter 2 and 3 speak of a few churches that were starting to fall away and needed to be restored or else they would be lost.

Anyone is welcome to worship with us. We have had ex-murderers, cons, I myself was a drug dealer and user. Not only that but a brawler also.

All of us had come around to asking important questions of "what happens to us when we die" or "is there more to life than this", so on and so forth. We were all accepted to sit down and worship, hang out with, go here or there with the congregation of believers. They studied with people like us. Answered our questions. discussed and debated with people like us.

I stand here now a believer in Christ. I dont reject people, but I will tell them that God does not tolerate sin. I will tell them their errors using scripture that states such and I will not give them my opinion, but Gods word. They are more than welcome to be with me, but I wont condone nor do anything that compromises my Christian walk with Christ.

By telling someone "thats wrong please dont do that" or "thats wrong I'll have you know" is not rejecting someone, it is correcting them.

There is a few passages in scripture that tell us that Jesus specifically went and hung around sinners. The Jews were actually surprised and a little upset about that. But Jesus made a point to them with scripture like "leaving the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep". Jesus has made that point a few times in the new testament. Why is he going to hang around the already saved? They are already saved. His goal was to bring ALL into salvation, but it has to be their choice.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who ever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16

Whosoever believeth (KJV)

That leaves the choice to you. The sacrifice has been made for you, but you have to choose to.

Unless you are truthfully inquiring and exploring answers to Christianity. Then I believe you should lock and end this thread.

Your latest answers to another poster show that you have decided already, and are no longer an Agnostic, but a full fledged Atheist. Your in the "Exploring Christianity" Section and you are laying down convictions that show otherwise.

It`s just difficult to believe when you don`t sense him anywhere, I understand he perhaps is somewhere else in a spiritual world or somethin, but you see the problem I have with it still, if he really created everything, why isn`t his personality signature somewhere, there`s just no seeing of him … but, I really like the story about adam and eve and jesus child

 

[Acts2:38]

It`s just difficult to believe when you don`t sense him anywhere, I understand he perhaps is somewhere else in a spiritual world or somethin, but you see the problem I have with it still, if he really created everything, why isn`t his personality signature somewhere, there`s just no seeing of him … but, I really like the story about adam and eve and jesus child

We as humans do not have any special ability that allows us to "sense God". If that were the case, then would not EVERYONE know about God?

Since Christs death on the cross, and the completion of the bible with John being the last apostle to finish the written scriptures, it is now a "faith" issue.

Take this scripture into account: John 20
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The writer of this gospel John, guided by the Holy Spirit, ended the recorded conversation there at "blessed are they the have not seen, and yet have believed".

There is no sensing God. Just a faith/belief that there is a God, creator of all things. That God sent his son the Christ Jesus to die for our sins as he promised from the beginning (See Genesis 3:14-15 and all through out the OT since then).

For a Agnostic or Atheist, I would bring forth the evidence of historical accounts and the accuracy thereof from the bible. Along with the failure to provide any evidence on the evolutionists theories.

• About 40 authors of the bible within the span of thousands of years, and they do not contradict each other.
• Many of the old testament authors record events far into their future, and those events came true. The evidence is also recorded from secular writers like Josephus who literally saw with his own eyes the some very events foretold coming true. (See "Antiquities" and "The Roman-Jewish War" Josephus)
• Hundreds and thousands of witnesses to Christ have been recorded in scripture as to seeing the miracles done by Christ, and even his resurrection.
• So far, archaeology has verified truth in locations, names, and secular historical recordings, also dating.
• Evolutionists have yet to find any "missing link" nor come close to proving that living matter came from non living matter. Many, many scientists have used many, many methods to recreate a scenario to prove evolution only to fail miserably. Evolutionists "Lucy" find, was not long after they it verified as false, along with the others they claimed helped link their theory.
• Evolutionists dating methods of carbon dating were found false as well. Their claims that the earth is millions and billions of years old, false. A test was done on about 400 carbon dating machines which about 385 were found inaccurate. A fail rate so substantial its amazing they put faith in its dating accuracy and claim it as absolute truth.
• Evolutionists fail to find any creature bones showing that, for example: A dog evolved into a horse. They cannot find one creature that started out as one thing, then evolved into another. They claim it as true, yet have no "missing links" showing the transformation.

There are too many to mention.

The point of bringing up the fact that Atheists and their belief on evolution, is to show something that you have been touting...

"How can someone believe in God, when they dont sense him or see him"?

Well, at least I have historical evidence from the bible and from secular writers and recordings from first hand witnesses etc. but in the end, I have faith/belief in that there is a God and he sent Christ Jesus to die for our sins and establish a way for me to be saved.

So when I ask an Atheist that very same question in this manner...

"How can someone believe in evolution when they have no evidence nor can find or sense any evidence out there"?

1-Their carbon dating has too high of a fail rate to trust as "set in stone" truth

2-They have no missing link evidence to prove we, and any other creature, evolved to form a completely different species (dog turning into a horse for example). A Husky turning into a German Shepard over time via its lineage, is not evolution in the sense evolutionists want to state as the case. It is still a dog. It didnt evolved into a horse.

3-They have no evidence living matter can be created from non living matter (a rock--non living matter-- has never spawned a bacteria --living matter.) Scientists have been attempting to create this process for over a hundred years or so, yet fail every time.

4-Atheists stumble on the question "what came first, the chicken or the egg?". In their system of beliefs, they are forces to either avoid this question, or try to convince me that the egg came first. In which case, we all know is not possible. Therefore, we bring into evidence the "Law of Causality".

Just these simple 4 points show you that it takes MORE faith to be an Atheist than a Christian.

They have no evidence. They cant sense anything to their belief. They cannot see any examples for their belief.

So I would ask you, with no evidence, no sensing, and no seeing, how can you believe against there being a God?

See, you either have faith/belief there isn't, or you have faith/belief there is. Either way you want to cut it, your believing in something you cannot see or sense. Only problem for you then is that I have evidence where as you do not.

I hope this helps you with your exploring.

Maybe truly check out this -
Warren-Flew Debate - YouTube

This is that debate I was talking about earlier. Each one is about 30 minutes and they provide the Christian view side and the Atheist view side. It is a civil debate with rules and each person is alotted their "Affirmative" for a few videos and a "negative". If you the time you should check them out to help your decision.

Have a wonderful weekend.

 

[aiki]

Hello, I was watching supernatural with sid roth, you know the christian tv-show sort of, I noticed something among the audience, yes, they all look brainwashed sort of,

While you were watching the show you also were part of Sid's audience. Were you brainwashed?

I was thinking then, if they really believes in a supernatural god, why don`t they look just normal?

Sid Roth is a shyster and a kook. What, then, do you expect his regular audience to be like?

 

[Pulchra]

While you were watching the show you also were part of Sid's audience. Were you brainwashed?



Sid Roth is a shyster and a kook. What, then, do expect his regular audience to be like?

ah, yes