Do these verses prove predestination?

[childofGod31]

Could anyone who does not believe in predestination, explain to me what these verses mean because I would like to see them from a non-predestination perspective. (I will write down after each verse what I see them saying but it's possible that I am just not seeing them correctly....

Currently, I believe that there is predestination plus something else. I don't know what something else is, so I am still considering all the options. What bothers me about predestination all by itself, is, that God seems to be really upset with (mad at) sinners.

If we are all bad, and only through his choosing us we become good, then he should not be mad at people who can't help it. It's like us being mad at mentally ill people when they do something bad.
So I am thinking, that maybe, there are good people and there are bad people (regardless of whether they believe or not). And God knows who they are. And so God decided to "choose" or "predestine" the good ones to become saved. And He lets the bad ones to be condemned. This is the only way I could explain things to myself and reconcile justice, predestination, judgement and mercy altogether.

So there are good people by nature and bad ones. ALL have been infected by sin. God heals the good ones and they become Christians, so they can be saved. And God lets the bad ones to continue to live in sin so they would be condemned.
I would love to hear opinions on this.

ROM 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

This verse says that it doesn't matter whether a man wants to be saved or not, what matters is whether God's mercy will extend on him.

JOH 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

I imagine that God doesn't draw all people, but some. And I guess the few that God draws, choose him?

TIT 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, - eternal life was prepared for the chosen from the beginning of time.

was prepared only for the chosen?

Many are called but few are chosen. MAT 22:14

many are called from the pulpits, via preaching the good news, but only those who are chosen will respond

ACT 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
same as above verse

JOH 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Only those choose God, whom God enables to choose God. To whom God gives the gift of faith.

MAR 4:11-12 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Jesus didn't want the "unchosen" to understand the message and by accident to repent and be forgiven.

1PE 2:8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message - which is also what they were destined for.

their fate was - to not be saved?

Romans 9:11-13 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Paul said that God chose Jacob by election, and not by works.

ROM 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

The chosen ones, the elect people, received righteousness, but others were hardened (God made their hearts to be unreceptive...)

 

[Dispy]

Maybe this will help - Taken from the book The Power of God Unto Salvation, by Joel Finck.

Chapter Seven:

PREDESTINATION

Many times when an event or even a tragedy occurs, someone will say, "Well, I guess it was just meant to happen." Have you ever heard or said this? The world calls this attitude "fatalism," or in more common language, "the fickle finger of fate."

Calvinistic theology calls this "predestination." Interestingly, the Islamic religion holds tenaciously to the doctrine of predestination. A familiar expression among Muslims is, "it was Allah's will." They will apply this to virtually everything that happens: good, bad, or indifferent, "It was Allah's will." Of course, our main concern should not be what the world or the theologians or the Islamic religion thinks. Our main concern is what the Bible says, and in this chapter, we are going to be see that the Bible does not say what many think it says about predestination.

Many Christians have a vague notion that election and predestination mean the same thing. Usually they think it means that God picks out some people to be saved and passes others by, or even picks out some to be damned. In chapter 6, we showed from the Scriptures that election does not mean that God picks out certain ones to be saved. Perhaps the most conclusive way to show this is from

Isaiah 42:1 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is referred to as God's "elect." It is obvious that the Lord Jesus Christ was not "elected" to be saved, for He was never lost. His election has nothing to do with being saved. Rather, His election has everything to do with being put into a position of service and being the source of all blessing.

We further showed that none of the five elections of Scripture have to do with picking out someone to be saved, but rather to God's positioning of a person or a group into a special place of service. This is true of the twelve apostles, including Judas. Judas was also called one of the elect apostles even though he fell from his position. He was put into the position of being one of the twelve apostles for a time. The nation Israel was put into a special position, therefore, they are called "elect." The Body of Christ is put in a special position, and, likewise, called "the elect." The Apostle Paul was put in a special position, elected to be the apostle of the Gentiles.

In this chapter, we are going to see that predestination refers primarily to the predetermined goal that God has for every believer. We will see from the Scriptures that predestination does not mean that God picks someone out for salvation. Predestination means that God has great plans for those who become saved. Once a person becomes saved, predestination relates to what God will do with that person now, and what He will do unto that person and for that person for eternity. This is what predestination is all about.

The ultimate goal of predestination is that the believer in Christ be conformed to the image of Christ. Predestination means that every last person who places their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ WILL BE conformed to the image of Christ. It may be sooner, or it may be later, but it will happen, for it has been predetermined by the Lord that it will be so. Of course, as they say, "the sooner, the better!"

The first thing we need to do is to understand the meaning of the word, "predestination." Then we will show where this word is found in Scripture. The word "predestination" is actually seldom found in the Bible. Many folks seem to have the notion, perhaps because of some preaching they have heard, that the Bible is just filled with predestination, here, there, and everywhere. But the fact is that this word is found only six times in the Bible. And then, it is not always translated "predestination." We will be considering every occurrence of the original word even when it is translated in different ways. The Greek word for predestination is "proorizo." The prefix, "pro" means "before" and "horizo' means a boundary. Incidently, this is the word from which we get our English word "horizon." A horizon is an imaginary line, or boundary, between the earth and the sky. Putting the two words together, we get, "proorizo' or, "predestination," which means to establish a boundary beforehand. In other words, God has chosen to establish certain boundaries in advance. When considering this literal definition, two questions come to mind: 1) Whose boundaries are preset? 2) What are these preset boundaries?

Let us go to the Scriptures and consider the uses of predestination. In Acts 4:28 the word is used not about the predestination of a believer, but rather it is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ. Beginning in verse 27 we read, "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before" (Acts 4:27,28). It is important to realize that these words actually comprise a prayer, so when it says "thy hand," it is referring to God's hand. In other words, God's hand "determined before" (prooridzo) the boundaries of what would become of Christ. God predestined that the Lord Jesus Christ would be crucified. It was part of God's predetermined plan. It was not a surprise. It was not a mistake. It certainly was a sin for those people to do it, but, nevertheless, it was part of God's plan that Christ should die. It does not refer to believers here at all in this use of predestination.

Now, let us look at the next reference in I Corinthians 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." Here, the words "ordained before" again come from "proorizo," or predestined. Paul is referring here to the Mystery which was hidden, but which God predestined before the world unto our glory. This tells us that the Mystery program, even though it was kept secret, was in the mind of God even before the world (lit. "ages") began. It was not just an afterthought used to replace Israel's program when they rejected the Messiah. Again, predestination in this passage has nothing to do with a believer being predestined to salvation. It is simply God's choice to plan and eventually reveal the Mystery through Paul, who tells us time and again that it was first revealed to him. I Corinthians 2:8 goes on to say, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Here is one of the reasons why God kept the Mystery a secret. Part of the Mystery is that the cross would provide payment for the sins of ALL mankind. God kept that secret, for if Satan had known what the cross would fully accomplish, he would not have wanted to see Christ crucified. Therefore, God kept it a secret so that His predetermined plan of salvation would be carried out.

The next passage under our consideration is in Romans 8:29,30. The previous two passages do not refer to predestination with respect to believers. One refers to Christ and the other refers to the Mystery. But now in Romans 8:29-30, we find the word predestination twice, and it definitely refers to believers. Verse 29 begins, "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate." Our immediate question is, to what did He predestinate them? To be saved? No, the verse goes on to say, "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." The predestination in verse 29 refers to the goal that God has for every believer in Jesus Christ: that they would be conformed to His image. The fact is that all Christians will one day be conformed to the image of Christ, and again we say, "the sooner the better!" As we grow in the Word of God, rightly divided, we become conformed to the image of Christ. If we refuse to grow in our faith, it will have to wait. But if one is truly saved, he will eventually be conformed to the image of Christ even though it may not happen until the judgment seat of Christ, instead of during this life. But either way, God has predestined that it will happen.

Now, let us go to the next verse, Romans 8:30, and notice another aspect of predestination, "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Here we see a progression that is based on predestination. God predestined those who believe, (members of the Body of Christ), not only to be conformed to the image of Christ, but also to be glorified. Verse 30 ends, "them He also glorified." And indeed all believers will be glorified to some degree. Some will be glorified to a greater glory than others, but everyone who is "in Christ" will be glorified. This has been predetermined by God.

The next passage in which we find the word "predestinated" is Ephesians 1:5. It is interesting that, aside from the two passages in Acts 4:28 and 1 Corinthians 2:7, we find all of the passages on predestination in two chapters of the Bible, Romans chapter 8 and Ephesians chapter 1. Here is another aspect of our predestination, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:5). Part of the blessing we get when we trust Christ is that we are predestined to the position of sonship. Again, predestination does not mean that God has predetermined who He will save, rather, it refers to the things God will do for those who become saved.

The final use of the word predestination is found in Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." To what are the saints predestinated according to this verse? They are predestinated "to obtaining an inheritance." What kind of inheritance does Paul have in mind here? We usually think of an inheritance as getting something in material terms, whether it be a house, land or money. But, here we have an inheritance that is in the spiritual realm.

In Romans, we find a passage which more fully explains what this inheritance is all about. Now, an inheritance is something you are promised in the future. What are we predestined to receive in the future? Romans 8:17 says, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together." In what way will we be joint-heirs with Christ? Paul tells us in II Timothy 2: 12, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us." The predestination which Paul speaks of has to do with an inheritance, and the inheritance in particular that Paul mentions is that when we suffer, we will reign with Christ. God has predetermined that this will be so.

So far we have looked at the six occurrences of predestination in Scripture and not one of them has anything to do with being "picked out" to be saved. One has to do with Christ being set forth as One who would die. One has to do with the Mystery being known and planned by God before the ages began. The other four have to do with the results of being a believer: glorification, adoption and inheritance.

An illustration which is helpful in understanding predestination is that of boarding an airliner. When you get on an airplane that is scheduled to fly from, say, New York to California, you are "destined" to get to California (barring a hijacking or a crash!). Predestination, as portrayed in Scripture, has nothing to do with WHO gets on the airplane. But it has everything to do with WHERE the airplane is going. When you trust Christ, you get on the Divine airliner that never crashes, is never late, and it always gets to its destination. Predestination means that once you trust Christ, you have boarded that airliner and now you are going to get to the destination. Whether or not you get on the airliner has not been predetermined, only what happens after you get on!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dispy]

The following, taken from the same book, might also be helpful.

An exert taken form chapter 9 of the same book.

Calvinists often use several verses from Romans chapter 9 to support the notion that God picks some people to be saved and others are "hardened" so they will remain lost. In this chapter, we will show that this simply is not the case. We have already covered Romans 9:11-13, but will review it here so we see it in the context of the entire chapter. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11- 13).

This remarkable passage is construed by Calvinism to mean that before Jacob and Esau were born, Jacob was chosen to be saved and Esau to be damned. The text says nothing of the sort. C.R. Stam correctly comments, "Surely the above passage has nothing to do with predestination to Heaven or Hell. It does not say, nor imply that God gave eternal life to Jacob but consigned Esau to eternal damnation, much less that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born. Nor yet does 'the purpose of God according to election,' in verse 11, have to do with eternal salvation and reprobation, but rather with His purpose to make the descendants of Jacob, rather than those of Esau, His special people."

It can easily be demonstrated that God had nations, not individuals in mind when He said to Rebekah, "The elder shall serve the younger." This quote comes from Genesis 25:23, "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Furthermore, we know God had nations, not individuals in mind, for Esau never served Jacob personally. But the nation which descended from Esau (Edom) did serve the nation which descended from Jacob (Israel). An example of this is found in I Chronicles, "And he put garrisons in Edom; and all the Edomites became David's servants" (I Chron. 18:13a).

The statement, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13) is often used by Calvinists to "prove" that God picked Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost, even before they were born. But the fact is, this statement was first made in Malachi 1:2, some FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS after they were born. Again, the point in Malachi is not God's love or hatred for Jacob and Esau, personally. Rather, it refers to God's view of the two nations which descended from these two men.

Now, what is the point of this discussion of Jacob and Esau? Remember the overall context of Romans chapters 9-11 is to explain how God could set aside the Jews and turn to the Gentiles. Paul is simply illustrating from history that God can work through whomever He chooses, and if He decides to depart from the "norm," He has the fight to do so. Technically, Esau should have become the chosen nation, because he was the firstborn. But God, in His sovereignty, chose to use Jacob instead to become the father of the chosen nation.

If you would like a copy of this book, just e-mail me you mailing address, and I will send you a copy AT MY EXPENSE. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential, and send no other unrequested materials.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh often and Love the Lord!

 

[beloved57]

The statement, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13) is often used by Calvinists to "prove" that God picked Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost, even before they were born. But the fact is, this statement was first made in Malachi 1:2, some FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS after they were born. Again, the point in Malachi is not God's love or hatred for Jacob and Esau, personally. Rather, it refers to God's view of the two nations which descended from these two men.

This passage demonstrates That God is Sovereign over men..and its in the overall context of personal salvation, so yes God is sovereign over 1 man over another as well as nations over another, the point is God chooses and man does not..

You and I will be and go wherever God has already decided..

i.e if you are a non elect, and God has destined you for hell, no matter how religous or moral you become, you will die in your sins, because christ did not die for your sins thats just an example, I dont know if you are elect or not, but thats the only way you will see heaven..

 

[Van]

Hi ChildofGod, before we address whether these verses or any verses prove "predestination" we must define "predestination." The Calvinist doctrine of predestination makes two false assertions: (1) whatsoever comes to pass is ordained or predestined by God, and (2) therefore only those who were chosen before creation as foreseen individuals are predestined for salvation. No verse supports either false assertion.

However, the Bible does indeed teach the doctrine of predestination, which is whatever God decides will happen in the future, will happen just as God foreordained because no plan of God can be thwarted. If God decided beforehand that He would conform anyone whose faith is credited as righteousness and spiritually placed in Christ, to the image of Christ, then that process of being conformed is predestined for anyone placed in Christ. Similarly, if God decided beforehand, that anyone whose faith in Christ is credited as righteousness and spiritually placed in Christ would be bodily resurrected unto eternal life, that "adoption as sons of God" is predestined. So two future things are predestined for anyone placed in Christ, but being placed in Christ is not predestined.

And finally, for the sake of completeness, everything that God says will happen in the future, will happen because God makes it happen, so His prophecies are predestined to be fulfilled.

Having defined "predestination" lets now turn to your idea that there are good people and bad people. This too is unbiblical. There are very bad people and not so bad people, but all have fallen short of the glory of God, all are sinners, and therefore all deserve condemnation. No one is good except God.

Now lets turn to your verses!

Romans 9:15-16 do not address the topic of predestination, but only that it is God who chooses whom to save, and therefore our actions such as willing to trust in Christ, and trusting in Christ, does not save us. We do not save ourselves by our faith. But our faith provides our access to God's grace, Romans 5:2. God may credit our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:5/24 or not! The folks of Matthew 7 who said "Lord, Lord" had a degree of faith, but they had never been born again, for Christ says "I never knew you." Therefore, your statement, "This verse says that it doesn't matter whether a man wants to be saved or not, what matters is whether God's mercy will extend on him" is completely correct!!

John 6:44 says no one can come to me unless the Father draws him, and then it says Christ will raise "him" up on the last day. So we have a choice, does it say everyone drawn by God will be saved (raised up) or only everyone who comes to Me will be saved (raised up)? I believe the last view is correct. Note in verse 6:45 it says Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. So when we hear from the Father we are drawn by His lovingkindness to God, but only those who accept God's word and thus "learn from the Father" come to Christ. So scripture does not say that all men hear God's word, but of those who do, only a subset accept it and therefore learn and come to Christ. Predestination is nowhere to be found, it is up to us to accept the gospel and thus "learn" from the Father. But God does choose those who have learned from the Father, but it is God who decides who these are. We can believe we have "learned" from the Father but it is God who decides whether or not to save us based on what He knows we learned and believe in our hearts.

Titus 1:2 says God promised before time began the hope of eternal life. And how did God do that? By choosing the Word to be His lamb, His Redeemer, His Christ. When you choose a lamb to shed its blood to redeem believers, you make a promise to redeem believers to eternal life. Therefore, for God so loved the world, that He gave His one of a kind Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So whoever is spiritually placed in Christ receives the blessing of being redeemed, which was promised before time began. But no human individual received that promise until their faith was credited as righteousness and they were spiritually placed in Christ. And yes, the God's redemption plan included that God would choose believers and place them spiritually in Christ, but did not include which individuals He would choose. 1 Peter 2:9-10 tells us God makes the choice of us individually after we have lived without mercy. Therefore our election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives, not before time began.

Similarly, the many are called but few are chosen verse, Matthew 22:14, clearly indicates first we are called during our physical lives, and then if we have both heard and learned from the Father, He will credit our faith has righteousness and choose us individually by spiritually placing us individually into Christ. Therefore your statement, "many are called from the pulpits, via preaching the good news, but only those who are chosen will respond" is backwards and wrong. First we are called, then chosen based on our response, have we heard and learned?

Acts 13:48 indicates that those who responded to Paul's gospel presentation, followed his (Paul's) direction and therefore were appointed to eternal life. Note that in verse 46, that those who did not respond judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. Therefore the idea is that those that agreed with the requirements of the gospel of Christ as presented by Paul, we appointed to eternal life.

JOH 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

The NASB renders the phrase "has enabled him" as "has been granted him from the Father." The ESV says "granted him by the Father." Now the word translated by most translations as granted or given, is "didomi" which means give. So "enabled" appears to be a form of translation shopping to find a translation that supports your doctrine. The actual idea is that only those who God allows to come to Christ, are allowed to come to Christ. If God decides for His purposes not to allow some individuals or groups to come to Christ, then they cannot come. Two examples, Judas was not allowed to come and in Romans 11, we see that unbelieving Jews were hardened and therefore not allowed to come in order to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles. But note these are the exceptions, God allows everyone else who is exposed to the gospel to come to Christ, for if I be lifted up, I will draw all men (who see that I have been lifted up - crucified to provide propitiation for their sins) to Me, (John 12:32)

MAR 4:11-12 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

This verse actually teaches that most everyone is able to hear and learn from the Father. And because the gospel of Christ was being unveiled in a foreordained time sequence, building to Christ's crucification as God's lamb just before Passover, Christ spoke in parables for a time. But after the crucification, the gospel message went first to the Jews, but then to the whole world. Being supposedly chosen beforehand has absolutely no part of Christ's use of parables.

1 Peter 2:8 tells us the Jews were destined to stumble over the rock of offense. Which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 9:30-33. And why were they destined to stumble? To facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles, Romans 11:11-12.

Yes, God's action with regard to Esau and Jacob shows that God predestines some things. Note they were chosen from the womb, or during their physical lifetime for a purpose, the older will serve the younger. So the promise of eternal life is not according to bloodline or works, but according to faith in Christ.

Romans 11:7 says that Israel, everyone in the blood line from Abraham, did not obtain the promise, but only those God chose. And God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5/24; 9:30-33.

At the end of going through all these verses we have found absolutely no support for the Calvinist doctrine of "Predestination" but have found support for the biblical doctrine of predestination.

 

[beloved57]

Hi ChildofGod, before we address whether these verses or any verses prove "predestination" we must define "predestination." The Calvinist doctrine of predestination makes two false assertions: (1) whatsoever comes to pass is ordained or predestined by God, and (2) therefore only those who were chosen before creation as foreseen individuals are predestined for salvation. No verse supports either false assertion.

Thats correct everything that happens in time was caused by The predetermination of God before time, and yes, only those elected or chosen to salvation are saved. The non elect are elected or chosen to spend eternity in hell, they did not have a choice in the matter..

 

[Dispy]

The statement, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13) is often used by Calvinists to "prove" that God picked Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost, even before they were born. But the fact is, this statement was first made in Malachi 1:2, some FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS after they were born. Again, the point in Malachi is not God's love or hatred for Jacob and Esau, personally. Rather, it refers to God's view of the two nations which descended from these two men.

This passage demonstrates That God is Sovereign over men..and its in the overall context of personal salvation, so yes God is sovereign over 1 man over another as well as nations over another, the point is God chooses and man does not..

You and I will be and go wherever God has already decided..

i.e if you are a non elect, and God has destined you for hell, no matter how religous or moral you become, you will die in your sins, because christ did not die for your sins thats just an example, I dont know if you are elect or not, but thats the only way you will see heaven..

First of all, you are takeing the verse completely out of its context. However, I will agree that God is soverign. Joel Finck correctely presented the text in context.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but it longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)."

Hell was never created for fallen man. "Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

 

[beloved57]

First of all, you are takeing the verse completely out of its context. However, I will agree that God is soverign. Joel Finck correctely presented the text in context.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but it longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)."

Hell was never created for fallen man. "Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

The devils angels could very well be men, angels means messengers..

we have an example of men being called satans messengers..

2 cor 11:

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


The word angel as messenger:

matt 11:

For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.


lk 7:

And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?


38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


You keep on believing them fairy tales about there being no eternal punishment, anyone can see you believe in fairy tales..

 

[childofGod31]

Van,
I am not sure if I understood some of your reasoning.

I agree that ROM 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son,
- possibly means - predermined to be conformed to the image of Jesus" after believing and coming to Christ.

Do you think that God draws all people, and then OF THOSE who believed in Jesus, God chooses which ones to save and which ones not to?

So lots of people have faith in Jesus. But God chooses whom He will credit it as righteousness?

So then "choosing" means to choose to do something to a believer (and not to make somebody choose to believe)?

So there are 3 groups of people: those who believe and are chosen for salvation
those who believe but are not chosen for salvation
those who don't believe.

I wonder about those who don't believe. Is it by random chance that they don't believe?

This next verse sounds like Jesus is saying that you are unable to believe BECAUSE you are not God's, (which would mean God did not choose you to believe...what else could it mean?). Jesus is saying that the reason they don't believe is that because they belong to the devil. Does this mean all the people who don't believe the message belong to the devil? Is the reason they don't believe is because they belong to the devil? OR do they start to belong to the devil after they don't believe the message?


JOH 8:43-47 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, … Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! … He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

 

[Dispy]

First of all, you are takeing the verse completely out of its context. However, I will agree that God is soverign. Joel Finck correctely presented the text in context.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but it longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)."

Hell was never created for fallen man. "Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

The devils angels could very well be men, angels means messengers..

we have an example of men being called satans messengers..

2 cor 11:

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


The word angel as messenger:

matt 11:

For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.


lk 7:

And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?


38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You keep on believing them fairy tales about there being no eternal punishment, anyone can see you believe in fairy tales..

What did Jesus mean when He said: "not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)."

Was He giving His listeners false hopes?

When Jesus spoke to those on His left, Why didn't He say that He would cast them into a furnace of fire which He had prepared for them? Instead, He tells them for who the lake of fire was prepared.

You are spewing a man made doctrine, where I interpret the Bible in its proper context.

 

[beloved57]

What did Jesus mean when He said: "not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)."

First of all peter wrote that and secondly the people hes not willing to perish are the elect only..

 

[beloved57]

When Jesus spoke to those on His left, Why didn't He say that He would cast them into a furnace of fire which He had prepared for them? Instead, He tells them for who the lake of fire was prepared.

You contradict yourself, because the ones on the left were told they were going to be cast into the same fire that is for the devil and his angels..so your point is meaningless..

 

[Recon3rd]

Could anyone who does not believe in predestination, explain to me what these verses mean because I would like to see them from a non-predestination perspective. (I will write down after each verse what I see them saying but it's possible that I am just not seeing them correctly....

Currently, I believe that there is predestination plus something else. I don't know what something else is, so I am still considering all the options. What bothers me about predestination all by itself, is, that God seems to be really upset with (mad at) sinners.

If we are all bad, and only through his choosing us we become good, then he should not be mad at people who can't help it. It's like us being mad at mentally ill people when they do something bad.
So I am thinking, that maybe, there are good people and there are bad people (regardless of whether they believe or not). And God knows who they are. And so God decided to "choose" or "predestine" the good ones to become saved. And He lets the bad ones to be condemned. This is the only way I could explain things to myself and reconcile justice, predestination, judgement and mercy altogether.

So there are good people by nature and bad ones. ALL have been infected by sin. God heals the good ones and they become Christians, so they can be saved. And God lets the bad ones to continue to live in sin so they would be condemned.
I would love to hear opinions on this.

Anyone at any time can become one of the predestined all you have to do is accept the message of the gospel.

All people are on Gods S*** list, not because of anything they did or do but because they are separated, cut off from Him. Everyone is born a child of Satan and has a sin nature. Untill you change that nature you belong to your father the devil. That's why Jesus said,

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 1:3)

The word 'see' doesn't mean the visual seeing but the understanding. See what I mean.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 1:6)

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:9)

If you haven't been born from above you will NEVER understand the things of God. You're out of the loop so to speak.

 

[beloved57]

Anyone at any time can become one of the predestined all you have to do is accept the message of the gospel.

False..

 

[Ormly]

First of all peter wrote that and secondly the people hes not willing to perish are the elect only..

Where, except in your mind, does it say that FROM any scripture you can cite?

 

[Recon3rd]

You contradict yourself, because the ones on the left were told they were going to be cast into the same fire that is for the devil and his angels..so your point is meaningless..

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matt 25)

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor 5)

If you haven't been made the righteousness of God then you haven't recieved the Spirit and are still unrighteous.

 

[Recon3rd]

False..

No, TRUE

Being "predestined" means God already knows the out come of our lives, you don't He does. So anyone at any time can be one of the predestined through faith. If you couldn't then why bother telling anyone the gospel?

 

[Ormly]

If you haven't been made the righteousness of God then you haven't recieved the Spirit and are still unrighteous.

That must be better defined because many righteous folk came before the Spirit was ever given per the Work of the Cross. Ergo, what do you mean by righteous?

 

[Van]

Do you think that God draws all people, and then OF THOSE who believed in Jesus, God chooses which ones to save and which ones not to?

No. All people who are exposed to the gospel are drawn by God's lovingkindness. So that would be a subset of all people, for some live and die without ever being exposed to the gospel. But of those who are exposed, some reject the gospel and some sort of accept it, and still others put their complete trust in Christ. God knows our hearts, and out of those who accept of gospel to some degree, God chooses to credit the faith of those who fully committed to Christ, according to His discernment, as righteousness and spiritually places that subset of people in Christ, where they are born again.

So then "choosing" means to choose to do something to a believer (and not to make somebody choose to believe)?

If when you referred to "choosing" you were addressing our election unto salvation, then yes, our election unto salvation means God chooses to save that person whose faith has been credited as righteousness. James 2:5 indicates God's choosing keeps His promise to those who love Him.

So there are 3 groups of people: those who believe and are chosen for salvation
those who believe but are not chosen for salvation
those who don't believe.

Some of the believers only believe superficially, but have no root in themselves, Matthew 13:20-21, and other believers still treasure the things of this world, so they were unwilling to leave everything to follow Christ, Matthew 13:22, and neither of these groups of "believers" faith is credited as righteousness. So the promise to "whoever believes in Him" goes only to those who believe fully and from the heart according to the judgment of God, and does not go to everyone who professes to be a believer. Note the verse that refers to a large group of people who were following Christ, yet turned away? What did Jesus say of them? See John 6:60-66. Even though many "disciples" professed belief, Jesus knew who they were who did not "believe."

I wonder about those who don't believe. Is it by random chance that they don't believe?

No, that view is not biblical. See Matthew 13:1-23. Jesus gives us four kinds of response to the gospel. Some have hardened their hearts with the practice of sin such that they cannot even understand the gospel. Whatever limited spiritual ability they had, had been taken away by the practice of sin. Next we have folks that receive the gospel with joy, but they have no root in themselves, such that when they experience hardship and suffering, they quickly turn away. They are in it for themselves and not for Christ. And yet another group accepts the gospel, but is unwilling to turn loose of the treasures of this world, whether they are relationships or possessions. The contrast between our love and devotion to Christ, and to everything else is so great it can be described as loving Christ and "hating" all our other treasures. Those unwilling to leave the treasures of this world and cling only to Christ also fall away.

This next verse sounds like Jesus is saying that you are unable to believe BECAUSE you are not God's, (which would mean God did not choose you to believe...what else could it mean?). Jesus is saying that the reason they don't believe is that because they belong to the devil. Does this mean all the people who don't believe the message belong to the devil? Is the reason they don't believe is because they belong to the devil? OR do they start to belong to the devil after they don't believe the message?

Here the issue is what does it mean to be "of God?" My view is it means to be under the influence of God, or to be receptive to God's word. Thus a person who worships God is "of God" and is therefore receptive to the promises of God, including the gospel of Christ. There have either heard and learned from the Father, or their heart is open such that if exposed to God's word and the gospel, they would receive it.

JOH 8:43-47 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, … Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! … He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Lets back up and actually look at the passage.

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My words." (John 8:43 NASB) This describes the kind of folks described in Matthew 13:19. It does not apply to all men, but only to those who have hardened their hearts by the practice of sin that they have no ability to hear or understand God's word.

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desire of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because their is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44 NASB) Thus the folks in view, and not all mankind, are under the influence of Satan, the father of lies.

"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me." (John 8:45 NASB) Again, this group is under the influence of the devil, and cannot hear or understand spiritual truth, just as Jesus said in Matthew 13:19.

"Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? (John 8:46 NASB) These are rhetorical questions answered in the next verse.

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." (John 8:47 NASB) And so the passage does not mention being chosen in order to believe, but does suggest some folks are so under the influence of the devil that they cannot hear and understand God's word.

Lets talk a little about the process by which someone comes to have no spiritual ability to hear and understand God's word. Some assert that all men are born that way, but Matthew 13:20-22 clearly teaches that some men have some limited ability, the concept that as a result of the fall, all mankind has no spiritual ability is unbiblical.

 

[beloved57]

Where, except in your mind, does it say that FROM any scripture you can cite?

lol since when did you start believing scripture ?