Do These Acts Break Commandments?

[christopheralan88]

Good questions, John!

First, there is more to God's commands than the 10 commandments, there's the first 5 books of the Bible (aka Torah/Law/Instructions/Teachings), and we can find many of the answers to your questions there. What we call the "Old Testament" today is comprised of Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy), Prophets (Joshua - Malachi), and Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 and 2 Chronicles). It's important to understand that not all of these carry the same weight. Torah has the most weight as it is what God spoke directly to Moses. The Prophets have next rank and then the Writings. What God said in His Torah has more weight the Prophets and Writings. That said, let's see what Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy) says regarding your questions. DISCLAIMER: I do not claim to interpret Torah correctly - please look into this yourself - this is just my opinion based on what I know of Torah right now.

1) Illicit Drugs - I'm not aware of a place that talks about street/illicit drugs in Torah. It's not a problem for me, so I honestly haven't spent much time looking into it. It could be there, though, just not a question I've looked into.

2) Fornication (in the sense of sex before marriage) - Exodus 22:16-17: "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins." So, technically, if you then marry the woman and pay the bride price, then sex before marriage seems to be okay.

3) Gambling - not mentioned to my knowledge. Is it unwise? Perhaps when done too much. Is it a sin (ie: breaking Torah/the Law)? Not that I'm aware of.

4) Musical Instruments in church - Hahahahahahaha.....you can absolutely do that .

5) Dancing - there's nothing in Torah, to my knowledge, that prohibits dancing.

6) Prostitution - that seems to be a pretty clear "not okay" per these two places in Torah:

Deuteronomy 23:17-18: "No Israelite man or woman is to become a temple prostitute. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the LORD your God to pay any vow, because the LORD your God detests them both."

Leviticus 19:29: "Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot, lest the land fall into harlotry, and the land become full of wickedness."

7) Magick/Sorcery - a resounding "not okay!":

Exodus 22:18: "Do not allow a sorceress to live."

Leviticus 20:6: "And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people."

Deuteronomy 18:10-12: "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you."

8) Tattoos and piercings - Leviticus 19:28: "Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD." It was a pagan worship practice for people to cut themselves or put a tattoo on their bodies to mourn for their dead. So, as long as you're not getting a tattoo or piercing in that context, I would think it would be fine.

On the topic of Jesus adding to the Torah/Law when He says in Matthew 5:28 that "anyone who lusts/covets a woman in His heart has already committed adultery", I want to point out that if Jesus did actually add to or subtract from Torah, He would be sinning and disqualified from being the Messiah. Consider Deuteronomy 12:32: "Whatever I command you (Torah), be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." But don't worry, Jesus isn't adding to Torah in Matthew 5:28, He's reminding us of the 9th/10th commandment, "Do not covet/lust for your neighbor's wife". Jesus is just reiterating Torah because the Jews had subtracted the 9th/10th commandment and had been teaching that only the physical act of adultery is adultery: Matthew 5:27: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'".

With the above in mind, let's consider when you'd be committing "spiritual/mental" adultery. The woman you're coveting/lusting for would have to be married - otherwise it's not adultery. Do you have to be married? Doesn't appear that you have to - you can covet/lust for your neighbor's wife whether you're married or single.

I hope that helps! Let me know if you have any more questions, but please - read Torah for yourself and let God guide you - I don't claim to have all the answers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Greetings. I understand your point but... are you incapable of sinning? Are you really taking the position that you are already perfected, made incorruptible? Because if you are, I promise you, I could follow you around for a short time and find sin... I think we strive to be perfect, strive the walk in pure righteousness, but we are not perfected yet, made incorruptible. This happens at his return and until then we have been given a down payment, a deposit an earnest in the form of the Holy Spirit (see 2 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5). The idea that you no longer EVER sin defies the point of being perfected at his return. If we aren't perfected until then, then by definition, we are imperfect.

First of all, my life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard and it is true regardless of whether anybody follows it or not. For do you remember when Noah and his family were the only ones who were spared thru the global flood by the ark? Do you not know that the rest of that world was wicked? Noah was a preacher of righteousness and yet nobody else repented. They stayed wicked and they perished in the global flood as an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter. Now, imagine yourself living during that time. Could you honestly say that nobody could be righteous by your looking around at everyone else and by your using the world as the standard? No. You couldn't. Faith in GOD requires us to do things that others see as impossible. For example: When the young rich ruler walked away sad (because he was not willing to give up his riches to follow Jesus), the disciples then asked Jesus who can then be saved? Jesus said with man this impossible, but with God all things are possible. In other words, what you believe is not possible, it is possible for Jesus to accomplish inside of you. For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Second, you did not address any of the verses on Sinless Perfectionism that I had brought up in my previous post to you. Let me give you another one. Jesus said to two people to: "Sin no more." Now, it seems pretty clear to me that if these two individuals could not stop sinning, and yet Jesus told them to "Sin no more", it seems to me like Jesus would have lied to them (Because sinning no more would be impossible for them to do --- according to you). In fact, Jesus said to a man he healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. Now was Jesus playing a cruel joke on the man? Was Jesus lying to this man and a worse thing was destined to come upon Him anyways --- with Jesus knowing that He could not stop sinning? But if you are really in doubt about Sinless Perfectionism, the 144,000 is the best example in Scripture for it. They are 144,000 Messianic Jews in the future who are found without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5).

Three, Sinless Perfectionism is the goal in this life as a part of our Sanctification. It is not an overnight process for every believer. In other words, it does not mean believers may not stumble along the way before they have reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism. But I believe in it, because the Bible teaches it. For Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Heavenly Father is perfect because He does not sin. Does this mean you can stop sinning on your own power alone? No. Only the Lord working within you can help you to stop sinning and only the Lord deserves all the glory, honor, and praise for such a thing happening within your life, too. There would be no patting yourself on the back. For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus. For it was the LORD working within them.

Four, not all sin is the same, either (See 1 John 5:16-18).

#1. Sins unto death (Are sins that lead to the Second Death, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire). Such sins would be murder, hate, unbelief, theft, idolatry, and lying, etc. (See Revelation 21:8).

#2. Sins not unto death (An example of a sin not unto death would be dying in this life without having been baptized - See 1 Peter 3:21; Another is having pride in your church leaders and causing divisions - See 1 Corinthians 3; Another is hidden or secret faults - See Psalms 19:12). These are also serious sins (like hate, lying, adultery, etc.) that are confessed and forsaken to the LORD (Which fits the direct context of 1 John 5:16-18).

#3. Unforgivable Sins.
Also, Jesus said there is an unforgivable sin, too.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

There will be no ubelievers in the world to come (i.e. the Millennium). Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit means exactly that. It means to speak badly against the Spirit (Which cannot be forgiven), either by the believer in this life or by the believer in the world to come (i.e. the Millennium).

Other sins that cannot be forgiven is committing suicide and staying dead. For 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abidng within them. Suicide is simply self murder.

Another unforgivable sin is taking the Mark of the Beast.

I know... so the commandments that deal directly with Levites, doesn't apply to him or us, if we are not Levites.

I am not in disagreement with this statement.

First of all, I adamantly disagree that he could or would change them. There is a commandment that says NOBODY is to add or take from them and if he did... he broke that commandment.

Jesus was both man and...GOD.
This command of adding or taking away commands applied exclusively to man (Seeing it was GOD who decides the Laws we are to follow).
Remember, Jesus merely said and did everything the Father told Him to do.
So if there was a change in the Law, the change would have came down from God the Father (with Jesus simply being the messenger).

Also, while Jesus did do miracles by both God the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus had power of His own, too.

For during His Earthly ministry: Jesus is God (not in Word only but also in power), as well.

#1. Jesus said He was going to raise up the temple (his body) three days later (John 2:19-20).
#2. Jesus said He had power to raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life (John 5:21).
#3. Jesus said where two are three are gathered in his name, He is among them (Matthew 18:20).
#4. Jesus held everything together by the word of his power when he purged us of our sins (on the cross) (Hebrews 1:3).
#5. Jesus had the power of God to forgive sin and provide eternal life to people (Matthew 9:5) (John 10:28).
#6. Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#7. Jesus received worship as God (Matthew 28:16-17).

Only God could do those things.
In fact, we are told that we are to worship the LORD our God only and Him only we are to serve. Yet, Jesus (Who is God) was worshiped while being a man. In other words, this was not a conflict of the Law because Jesus did not overtake a pre-existing soul that was created. Inside the man suit, or temple, or shell of a body was the Eternal Word (i.e. Second person of the Godhead).

Since you already repeated the verse I shared (1 John 3:4) then you know if he broke the command that says not to add or take from any command, he disqualified himself as messiah. And... if he could change his mind on what is sin... then doesn't his character change? Sin stands opposed to his character and He does not change... therefore, what is or is not sin doesn't change!

So you believe the Commands of the Old Testament are still in effect even today? What about the Law on animal sacrifices? Are we seeking to rebuild a temple so as to offer animal sacrifices again? Was not the temple veil torn from top to bottom letting us know that the animal sacrifices and it's priesthood is no more? What about when Peter was told to eat unclean animals in a vision? Is this not a violation of OT Law? What about when Paul says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths? But were there not harsh punishments (or judgments) for not keeping the Sabbaths? What about Hebrews 7:12 that says the the Law has changed?

As far as commandments... again, many commandments simply don't apply. He is not "the land" so when we find a commandment that deals with the land, like allowing it rest one year out of 7, that does not apply to him.

Actually, this command applied to Israelite farmers and not the land. If Jesus did any kind of farming, He would have obeyed this Law. Seeing there was a lot about Jesus that was not written down, anything is possible.

Of course, and in some case he reveals the spirit behind the letter to be even harder. The letter says not to commit adultery, the spirit behind the letter says to lust in your heart for another woman means you have already sinned.

Well, the words of Jesus were written down here in Matthew 5:28-30. The result was also not just sin. If a man looked upon a woman in lust, they committed adultery and their whole body could be in danger of being cast into hell fire. Doesn't sound to me like you can continue in this sin and be right with God (if you ask me). Matthew 6:15 says something similar. It says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven by the Father. Jesus says by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned (Matthew 12:36-37). Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

I HATE heavy metal... but you are insisting that what pleases your tastes, touches your emotions personally is correct... and whatever stands opposed to your tastes is wrong. That is an area we all need to be careful of...not to use OUR understanding and OUR feelings to be the yardstick by which we judge others.

Shalom.

Christian Heavy Metal doesn't make sense for 4 reasons. One, you can't hear the lyrics. Paul said he would rather speak five words with the understanding than five thousand words without the understanding. Two, the music is aggressive, violent, and prideful in sound. Christian Heavy Metal does not make me want to worship the Lord at all. It invokes hate, violence, and prideful feelings because the music is violent, aggressive, and prideful. Three, I can tell the difference between Christian Contemporary music and Regular Rock Music at random; Yet, I can't tell the difference between regular Heavy Metal and Christian Heavy Metal. Four, Christian Heavy Metal bands not only sound evil but the bands also many times look evil, too. Paul says we are to avoid in having any appearance of evil.

I used to listen to Metallica, and some Megadeath before I was saved. After coming to Christ, I listened to a few Christian metal songs, but I couldn't get into them. For that type of music just didn't make any sense to me anymore. Heavy Metal music leads a person into a violent, angry, and prideful state. Yes, God does get angry at sin. But we are not to get angry or hateful in our worship with God. In my experience, it vexes my soul to even hear such music; And I used to love it. Why? Because I used to be different back then. I used to be the old man. But I am now the new man. I am a new creature in Christ where all things have become new.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Well, hold on; what I'm actually saying is that, if we tell others that "such and such" is "sinful", and if that thing actually isn't biblically sinful "by the book" (as it were), then, yes, we are now guilty of putting a stumblingblock in their way. We would be adding commandments that aren't there, which could very well be devastating to the faith of a "child" in Christ (or, even more mature).

For instance if someone comes to the faith and they are having relations with their girlfriend and ask "Is it a sin for me to have relations with a girlfriend?" then I'm personally going to say, "I don't see any prohibition to it" while I presume you would say "It's a sin, and [generally 'you are going to hell']". So, what I said was true, there's no prohibition that I see against it. You may point at the word 'fornication' in the scripture and say "that means sex between unmarried people" and I would reply "I'm not sure that it does; and I'm not going to risk putting a stumblingblock in front of this person over something I'm not sure of" (and note that this is my "by the book" and "by the letter of the law"; not even what I would actually say concerning grace and liberty in Christ- but just "by the letter")

The same applies to the other things. So yes, if a commandments isn't clearly stated, I'm not going to act as though it is, I'm going to rather, not give an occasion to stumble to anyone. Now, if the man said "I'm in an adulterous relationship; am I sinning?" I would reply "Certainly so; this is expressly forbidden by the letter of the law" or "I plan on bearing false witness during a trial, is this sin?" "Certainly so" etc.



No, I'm talking about things that are not clearly condemned; otherwise people would be stating clear passages. Adultery is clearly sin; false witness is clearly sin; murder is clearly sin: smoking drugs is not clearly sin. None of the things on the list are "clearly" sin.



Ignoring my moral compass? Morality is determined by belief. How do you think my own moral compass clearly indicates anything moral for someone else? Little old ladies sometimes have a moral compass which forbids short hair on women, or, women dressing in anything that isn't a long dress. Is a woman who wears a dress that exposes her ankels inciting lust and morally wrong? Your current moral compass is vastly different than the moral compass of centuries passed. If a man asks a little old lady "I have a glass of wine with my meal each evening" and the lady reply "That is sinful, either stop or [something bad]" would you agree with her? Should the lady be sure to follow her moral compass and tell musicians to stop playing their instruments because it is "sinful"? Her moral compass says no one should ever dance for any reason, and it is breaking the commandments and is sinful and lust enciting. Do you agree?



It seems to me the safer play (in regards for giving no occasion to stumble to another) is to not speak with certainty when we are not certain of the issue.



Everyone engages in gambling. You gamble with your life ever time you get in a car. Every business owner constantly gambles with his profits. Virtually everyone on the planet uses drugs. If a person is taking pain pills, will they miss out on entering the kingdom? The other words, I would say, you may be completely misdefining. Fornication, for example, seems to mean 'prostitution' in the bible; and I'm not sure if that means, prostitution plain and simple, or, temple prostitution.



You mean except for the fact that God did not specifically say it? Is there no indication that the Pharisees 'touch not' commandment was not given by God? Do you not think it's relevant that Jesus was chiding them for adding TOUCH NOT to their expansion of command? The same words Eve used?

Before I give you a detail reply, let me ask you a few questions.

#1. Are you indulging in any of the sins listed in your original post?
#2. Are you considering in doing any of the sins listed in your original post?
#3. Do you feel that the sins in your original post may not be sins at all?

(a) If so, is this based more on a feeling of doing what you want?
(b) Or is this the holy position of walking the straight and narrow way?​

#4. How does this cavalier attitude towards these sins fit with Jesus's words that say to: Deny yourself, and pick up your cross and to follow Him?

I ask you these things because it will determine if you are being personally motivated or Godly motivated.


...

 

[John Hyperspace]

Before I give you a detail reply, let me ask you a few questions.

#1. Are you indulging in any of the sins listed in your original post?

I'm not indulging in any of the those acts. In fact, they all seem absurd to me, and I haven't the desire to perform any of them. The only thing about me that I really do not like, is impure thoughts concerning women. I don't sit around all day having impure thoughts, but I do have them regularly. I'm not sure I think these are "sin" but I really dislike them because the thoughts are there whether I want them to be or not, and that feels to me like it's something that has power over me. I just don't like things that make me be somewhere when I don't want to be there. Does this make sense?

#2. Are you considering in doing any of the sins listed in your original post?

Not even remotely considering doing any of the acts on the list.

#3. Do you feel that the sins in your original post may not be sins at all?

Yes.

(a) If so, is this based more on a feeling of doing what you want?

This is based on whether or not the action is specifically and clearly stated in scripture to be a command that can be broken.

(b) Or is this the holy position of walking the straight and narrow way?

Bsed on the above statement.

#4. How does this cavalier attitude towards these sins fit with Jesus's words that say to: Deny yourself, and pick up your cross and to follow Him?

I'd say I'm more concerned with causing my siblings to stumble, or, sowing seeds of doubt, or, adding commandments that may affect other Christians. I'm not worried the least about myself, and this thread to me is purely an academic endeavor. Meaning, I don't have any partner at all: but, I still want to know what "fornication" actually means, and whether or not it is a "sin" or if it is, not a sin.

I ask you these things because it will determine if you are being personally motivated or Godly motivated.

The motivation is to get knowledge for me, with respect to what is "sinful" and what is not, and how this relates to giving an "occasion to stumble" to others: my only concern is for the faith and well-being of others.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not indulging in any of the those acts. In fact, they all seem absurd to me, and I haven't the desire to perform any of them. The only thing about me that I really do not like, is impure thoughts concerning women. I don't sit around all day having impure thoughts, but I do have them regularly. I'm not sure I think these are "sin" but I really dislike them because the thoughts are there whether I want them to be or not, and that feels to me like it's something that has power over me. I just don't like things that make me be somewhere when I don't want to be there. Does this make sense?

Jesus said, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30). Surely if this minor act of sexual immorality is serious enough to be cast into hell fire, then all other forms of sexual immorality are a sin, as well.

How can we know if other types of sins are wrong like sex before marriage? Because the Bible says sex outside of marriage is wrong.

"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge" (Hebrews 13:4).

One the one end, we see the marriage bed is undefiled, but anything else like whoremongers (harlots, or prostitutes) and adulterers (those who cheat on their wife are the type God judges). Seeing the marriage bed is undefiled it is a safe bet that all other forms of sex outside of marriage is wrong, too.

But if you need specific verses as to whether or not sex before marriage is wrong, check out the verses in this article here:

What does the Bible say about sex before marriage?

Not even remotely considering doing any of the acts on the list.

The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and who can know it?
Sin starts off small and leads to bigger sins.
While you may not have a desire to do them now this can certainly change.
For you said that you are not sure of whether or not that looking upon a woman in lust is a sin. Yet, Jesus says it is the sin of adultery and that you can be cast bodily into hell for it (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Do you feel that the sins in your original post may not be sins at all?

Yes.

Why do you think murder is wrong?
Was not murder wrong before it was written within the Law?

I mean, I honestly cannot understand how you can say these things.
These are basic morals that even unbelievers know are wrong.
It is scary that you do not know this.

As for Prostitution: How is sleeping with a woman who sleeps with a bunch of men a loving thing to your neighbor? Are you not helping to spread sexual diseases? Does not the Bible use other words in condemning prostitution? Is not whoremonger the same thing as prostitution? Do you not know that no whoremonger will have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God? (See Ephesians 5:5).

As for drugs: Again, how is that loving to your neighbor if you are on drugs?
Could you not potentially care less about your neighbor if you are hooked on drugs? Is not drug addiction a problem in today's world? Do not people die from doing drugs? Does not the Scriptures tell us to be filled with the Holy Spirit instead being drunk with wine? Is not alcohol a drug that can control you?

As for Gambling: How is this loving and good? How is this something of God? Does not this activity promote one in being rich? Is not the love of money the root of all evil? Can you gamble and not love money? Is not your success in gambling based on the loss of and suffering of others? Do you not care about them? How is this loving your neighbor?

(a) If so, is this based more on a feeling of doing what you want?
(b) Or is this the holy position of walking the straight and narrow way?

This is based on whether or not the action is specifically and clearly stated in scripture to be a command that can be broken.

For where I am standing, it seems you have ignored Scripture and are trying to teach a foot loose game with morality because there is no actual commands saying "Thou shalt not ___(insert sin here)___" into your understanding of Scripture. Again, Paul said that if you love your neighbor you automatically fulfill other Commands or laws like do no murder, lie, covet, and steal, etc. (Romans 13:8-10). In other words, blanket commands exist in Scripture. This is what you seem to be ignoring. If you are truly serious in pleasing God and not man, ask God to help you to find and understand those Commands that are not always the type to "hit you over the head" in what they say.

I'd say I'm more concerned with causing my siblings to stumble, or, sowing seeds of doubt, or, adding commandments that may affect other Christians. I'm not worried the least about myself, and this thread to me is purely an academic endeavor.

Meaning, I don't have any partner at all: but, I still want to know what "fornication" actually means, and whether or not it is a "sin" or if it is, not a sin.

In regards to fornication: See above article from Gotquestions. Also, read every Christian article that you can get your hands on within the topic and do not doubt what the writers in Scripture are saying. Do not go in trying to prove your idea here is correct. Pray to the LORD and ask for His understanding on the issue and be prepared to be wrong.

See, that is what I think why you may not be able to see things that are so basic to understand.

But God's Word will judge us one day and we will be without excuse before Him and His Word. So while you may claim ignorance now (because you are not seeing His Word condemning something specifically), you know deep down that you are wrong (because His Word does condemn the evils you mentioned by the use of other words in Scripture). For people can justify just about any kind of evil in Scripture. There are all kinds of churches today who do certain sins and justify it as being okay.

The motivation is to get knowledge for me, with respect to what is "sinful" and what is not, and how this relates to giving an "occasion to stumble" to others: my only concern is for the faith and well-being of others.

But saying such sins as prostitution, fornication, witchcraft, gambling, and drug use as not being sinful or wrong puts you too dangerously close in description to that group who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, though.

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
(2 Timothy 3:1-7).


...

 

[Ken Rank]

First of all, my life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard and it is true regardless of whether anybody follows it or not. For do you remember when Noah and his family were the only ones who were spared thru the global flood by the ark? Do you not know that the rest of that world was wicked? Noah was a preacher of righteousness and yet nobody else repented. They stayed wicked and they perished in the global flood as an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter. Now, imagine yourself living during that time. Could you honestly say that nobody could be righteous by your looking around at everyone else and by your using the world as the standard? No. You couldn't. Faith in GOD requires us to do things that others see as impossible. For example: When the young rich ruler walked away sad (because he was not willing to give up his riches to follow Jesus), the disciples then asked Jesus who can then be saved? Jesus said with man this impossible, but with God all things are possible. In other words, what you believe is not possible, it is possible for Jesus to accomplish inside of you. For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

I appreciate all the time you put in but my point to you comes down to far less than a book. Meaning, we both have full plates I imagine.. lets try to cover a little less per post. You have spent a great deal of timing trying to "teach me" which if you feel the need, is fine. But what above covers anything I don't believe in? Nothing... my life has changed DRAMATICALLY since I came to Yeshua... those that knew me before don't see the old "me" anymore. And I continue to grow like anyone else. So why the extended lesson covering things I already believe in? Time is important to us both, Jason.

Second, you did not address any of the verses on Sinless Perfectionism that I had brought up in my previous post to you. Let me give you another one.

Often, people would ask Yeshua a question and he would answer with a question. This is a very Hebraic thing to do... it is a tool. In answering with a question, the other person would develop a method through which they could answer their original question by answered the question they got back from Yeshua. You think I didn't answer your question, didn't even address it and then determined I needed more verses to make sure I see things as you do. I didn't need more verses, I already addressed your point. I will do so again in the next part....

Three, Sinless Perfectionism is the goal in this life as a part of our Sanctification. It is not an overnight process for every believer. In other words, it does not mean believers may not stumble along the way before they have reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism. But I believe in it, because the Bible teaches it. For Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Heavenly Father is perfect because He does not sin. Does this mean you can stop sinning on your own power alone? No. Only the Lord working within you can help you to stop sinning and only the Lord deserves all the glory, honor, and praise for such a thing happening within your life, too. There would be no patting yourself on the back. For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus. For it was the LORD working within them.

What was my answer? I asked you if you were perfected? Your answer should have been no, and what you have above is how I answered you. Here is what I said...

"I understand your point but... are you incapable of sinning? Are you really taking the position that you are already perfected, made incorruptible? Because if you are, I promise you, I could follow you around for a short time and find sin... I think we strive to be perfect, strive the walk in pure righteousness, but we are not perfected yet, made incorruptible."

I said the same thing you did. You spent all this time posting this really long post and I said the same thing. I made the font bigger in your section above in the places we were saying the same thing. We are NOT perfected yet but we ARE to strive for perfection. I said that... you agree... so why the long note?

Four, not all sin is the same, either (See 1 John 5:16-18).

#1. Sins unto death (Are sins that lead to the Second Death, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire). Such sins would be murder, hate, unbelief, theft, idolatry, and lying, etc. (See Revelation 21:8).

#2. Sins not unto death (An example of a sin not unto death would be dying in this life without having been baptized - See 1 Peter 3:21; Another is having pride in your church leaders and causing divisions - See 1 Corinthians 3; Another is hidden or secret faults - See Psalms 19:12). These are also serious sins (like hate, lying, adultery, etc.) that are confessed and forsaken to the LORD (Which fits the direct context of 1 John 5:16-18).

#3. Unforgivable Sins.
Also, Jesus said there is an unforgivable sin, too.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

Again, I thank you for the lesson... I never heard any of that before. Seriously... there are actually three Hebrew words we treat as one but are three levels of sin. Do you want to hear about them?

Jesus was both man and...GOD.
This command of adding or taking away commands applied exclusively to man (Seeing it was GOD who decides the Laws we are to follow).
Remember, Jesus merely said and did everything the Father told Him to do.
So if there was a change in the Law, the change would have came down from God the Father (with Jesus simply being the messenger).

There is no change in the law, and don't go pulling Hebrews 8 out about the "change" in priesthood. The word should be translated as "transfer" and it is in WEIGHT not one ceasing to exist. Even the Levitical priesthood is called everlasting by God and even if TODAY that doesn't harmonize with our theology, that doesn't mean God was wrong. SIN IS THE BREAKING OF COMMANDMENTS (1 John 3:4) and the law is the list of commandments. Do not steal, do not murder, do not lay with a man as you might a woman. And don't add or take from the Law. Being sinless MEANS he didn't break any commandments Jason... that is what is means. So if he changed a command he sinned because the standard when he walked the earth was the law. If you want to insist the law was done away with... or changed... then it was through his death and resurrection not before. So when he walked, until his death... he did NOT break ANY commandments and one of them says not to add or take from.

Also, while Jesus did do miracles by both God the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus had power of His own, too.

For during His Earthly ministry: Jesus is God (not in Word only but also in power), as well.

#1. Jesus said He was going to raise up the temple (his body) three days later (John 2:19-20).
#2. Jesus said He had power to raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life (John 5:21).
#3. Jesus said where two are three are gathered in his name, He is among them (Matthew 18:20).
#4. Jesus held everything together by the word of his power when he purged us of our sins (on the cross) (Hebrews 1:3).
#5. Jesus had the power of God to forgive sin and provide eternal life to people (Matthew 9:5) (John 10:28).
#6. Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#7. Jesus received worship as God (Matthew 28:16-17).

Only God could do those things.
In fact, we are told that we are to worship the LORD our God only and Him only we are to serve. Yet, Jesus (Who is God) was worshiped while being a man. In other words, this was not a conflict of the Law because Jesus did not overtake a pre-existing soul that was created. Inside the man suit, or temple, or shell of a body was the Eternal Word (i.e. Second person of the Godhead).

That's great, I hadn't heard any of these things, either.

So you believe the Commands of the Old Testament are still in effect even today? What about the Law on animal sacrifices? Are we seeking to rebuild a temple so as to offer animal sacrifices again? Was not the temple veil torn from top to bottom letting us know that the animal sacrifices and it's priesthood is no more? What about when Peter was told to eat unclean animals in a vision? Is this not a violation of OT Law? What about when Paul says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths? But were there not harsh punishments (or judgments) for not keeping the Sabbaths? What about Hebrews 7:12 that says the the Law has changed?

A discussion for another thread. Would love to chat about Peter's vision... it had NOTHING to do with food. Every point you make above there are numberous answers for... but again, another thread and honestly, not a discussion I even want to have with you. I will walk as I believe God is leading me to walk, I have to answer for THAT just as you must give an answer for your own walk. I don't want to convince you about the law, but I will answer honest questions, in another thread. I won't get into an endless debate though... if you WANT to hear, I will share. If you want to teach me, find another student.

Actually, this command applied to Israelite farmers and not the land. If Jesus did any kind of farming, He would have obeyed this Law. Seeing there was a lot about Jesus that was not written down, anything is possible.

Like most mainstream Christians, your understanding of the Torah is limited. That isn't a knock, it is just the reality of our culture. I am addressing this point though because you made mine but in your attempt to either teach me or pat yourself on the back (not sure yet which you are trying to do) you seem to gloss over it. I said that he did not keep ALL commandments because not all apply to him just as not all apply to me or you. You said, "If Jesus did any kind of farming, He would have obeyed this law." Agreed, but since he didn't then that commandment(s) doesn't apply to him. That is exactly and all I said... he didn't need to follow the commandments concerning the land because he didn't farm AND he isn't the land. Just as he didn't need to keep commands pertaining to women because he was a man. You agree, but you needed to repeat it to me... why?

Well, the words of Jesus were written down here in Matthew 5:28-30. The result was also not just sin. If a man looked upon a woman in lust, they committed adultery and their whole body could be in danger of being cast into hell fire. Doesn't sound to me like you can continue in this sin and be right with God (if you ask me).

That person would need to repent and Yeshua would do his work as advocate for us. We strive to be perfect but when we fail, we repent and move on. That is NO WAY suggests we can willfully sin and then go to confession... that would be rebellion. There is a difference in the Hebrew language between unknown or unintentional sin and rebellion. Sin happens, but there is a huge difference in so many ways in Scripture between the man who seeks the righteousness of God and falls short from time to time in his fallen state... and the guy who knows what God wants and goes and does something else deliberately.

Christian Heavy Metal doesn't make sense for 4 reasons. One, you can't hear the lyrics.

Again, I HATE HEAVY METAL... but YOU can't hear the words? So because YOU can't hear the words and because the music seems darker to YOU it must be of the Adversary? I, respectfully, question your discernment. You have spent a great deal of time trying to teach me things we already agree with and in some cases, you're trying to teach me things I have already said to you. Here you are using YOUR personal likes and dislikes to judge others. And again... I can't stand that form of music... but we are warned more about wolves in sheeps clothing... people with the Word (or enough of it to appear like us) who stand opposed.

Paul said he would rather speak five words with the understanding than five thousand words without the understanding.

Paul said that... but Paul is not God and though his works are inspired, he often shares his OPINION and though he was inspired to write his opinion, it remains his OPINION. He also said he believed you should remain celebate... but I see you are married. Why the double-standard? Accept Paul's words when it comes to music, but not women?

Two, the music is aggressive, violent, and prideful in sound.

According to YOUR standards and YOUR tastes. Again, I have no use for heavy metal at all... I actually agree with some of your descriptions... but to take the position that it is evil without spending ANY time with those who write or sing it? You're judging and unto condemnation because you are calling it evil and of the devil which sends the singers and songwriters to hell with the music. I think you have usurped your own authority here.

But I am now the new man. I am a new creature in Christ where all things have become new.

I am happy your life is better. Feel free not to impose all your understanding on everyone else. We can glean from one another but we should not dictate our views on others. We are all in different places, on different levels of understanding and it would do you well to learn to understand where on the ladder one might be and then go speak to them on that level... or from just ONE rung ahead. This is not a sprint, it is a marathon, a life long marathon run one step at a time.

Shalom.
Ken

 

[John Hyperspace]

For where I am standing, it seems you have ignored Scripture and are trying to teach a foot loose game with morality

Before I reply to your post, I wanted to ask you if you're teaching a footloose game with morality. Do you teach others that wearing shorts is a sin? Do you see a woman dressed in anything but a very long, dark-toned dress which covers the ankles, and teach her that she is sinning? Do you teach others that the very act of dancing is impure, lustful, and sinful? Do you teach others that wearing colored clothing is a sin of pridefulness? Do you teach others that owning modern appliances is sinful, as you could use the money for the unecessary computers and fancy cars and such to feed the hungry? If not, why not? I know a great many people would say that you are "teaching a foot loose game with morality": why are you dismissing their idea of "morality"? Why is your standard of "morality" superior to theirs? Are you engaging in the sinful lust of pride to suggest their morality is "too much" and yours is "just right"? Do you think the Amish don't see their moral standards clearly taught in scripture? Why not "play it safe" and go dwell in a cave girt with a burlap sack so as to avoid the hellfire surely coming upon the dancers, and the city-dwellers, and the automobile owners, and the prideful color-wearers, and all the sinful short-haired women?

I'm asking this question to see if I can go ahead and not have to respond to your use of "morality" in you post. To see if I can go ahead and let the bible define its own morality, instead of you determining that standard for everyone else?

 

[lichtoefur]

Leviticus 19 for tattoo. just throwing it in. I have more but I'm at work lol. we are not under law anymore. take Jesus into deeper relationship. you will have wisdom, the Holy Spirit will speak for you. etc..

Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk

 

[Vicomte13]

Did Jesus write posts on Christian Forums?

Did Jesus write ANYTHING?

 

[Vicomte13]

we are not under law anymore

"We" never were. The people present at Mt. Sinai during the Exodus, and their circumcised physical descendants or circumcised converts to their religion, prior to to tearing of the curtain of the Temple in two at the death of Jesus, were under the Law, properly understood as the Law of Moses, the Law of Sinai. Nobody else was, not since Jesus, and not before Jesus either.

The Law was a contract between the Hebrews and YHWH. It did not promise life after death or eternal life. It promised a secure farm in the land of Canaan for the circumcised lineal descendants of the Exodus who followed it. It promised nothing more. And it never, ever applied to anybody but them.

Gentiles were not "freed from The Law" by Jesus. We were never under The Law in the first place. Jews were. Nobody else. The Ten Commandments never applied to Gentiles and still don't. The Commandments of Jesus are "the law" for the world now, Gentile or Jew. Before Jesus, the only law for the world, from God, was the Law of Noah, and the the laws of nature.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Did Jesus write ANYTHING?

He wrote the Pharisees sins in the dirt but my point was that Jason was pointing to what Jesus didn't do in order to prove we shouldn't do those things either. But Jesus didn't use a phone, play basketball, eat a hamburger etc. so arguing that Jesus didn't do something for justifying a moral judgment is somewhat ridiculous. Hence my reply.

 

[Vicomte13]

For instance if someone comes to the faith and they are having relations with their girlfriend and ask "Is it a sin for me to have relations with a girlfriend?" then I'm personally going to say, "I don't see any prohibition to it" while I presume you would say "It's a sin, and [generally 'you are going to hell']".

I would say, "It's a sin, and you know it (or else you wouldn't be asking the question and worrying about it). Sexual immorality is one of those sins that will result in your failing final judgment and being thrown into the lake of fire. So is lying. You can be forgiven this sin, however, and not be thrown into the lake of fire, if you listen to what the master said and forgive others their sins against you. If you forgive everything, you will be forgiven everything. But if you refuse to forgive, you won't be forgiven either.

Example: you having sex with your girlfriend (or with yourself, for that matter) is sexual immorality. You want to be forgiven this sin, and you will be, if you forgive others their sins, and most particularly THIS sin. So, when a politician you don't like (say, Bill Clinton) engages in sexual immorality just as you have, do you support his punishment, his impeachment, his being run out of town on a rail? When gays bugger each other in private, do you despise them for their sin? If you are a supervisor at work, and you discover that two of your co-workers are having sex with each other, do you punish them because "we cannot have that here" or do you merely admonish them to be discreet? If your girlfriend cheats on you, do you rail at her as a "dirty [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", or do you forgive her if she asks you to?

If you fornicate, and recognize that you are a sinner, and hope God forgives you, if you are forgiving of others, you will be forgiven. If, however, you are a fornicator who judges and castigates others for their sexual sins, you're probably going to be thrown into the lake of fire at final judgment for your hypocrisy. The merciful will be shown mercy. The unforgiving will not be forgiven. As you measure, so shall you be measured. Christ said that, and that is, in fact, the Law, and the standard of divine judgment, straight from God's lips.

 

[Vicomte13]

He wrote the Pharisees sins in the dirt but my point was that Jason was pointing to what Jesus didn't do in order to prove we shouldn't do those things either. But Jesus didn't use a phone, play basketball, eat a hamburger etc. so arguing that Jesus didn't do something for justifying a moral judgment is somewhat ridiculous. Hence my reply.

Maybe he was just doodling with his finger.

Jesus was a preacher who was celibate and who said that some become eunuchs for the Kingdom. And Latin Catholic priests don't marry on account of it. Peter was married, and Jesus made him Pope. So there are even cases where Jesus not only did certain things but said them explicitly, and yet didn't impose them as a rule.

Truth be told, I'd love to emulate Jesus. If I could heal the sick with a touch or a word, that is all I would ever do. I'd walk through and empty hospitals. Roadkill would spring back to life and run off into the woods, sawed-off stumps would sprout new limbs and branches and leaves. Alas, I can't emulate Jesus in this regard no matter how badly I want to, because he won't LET me.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Just to add. People who keep stressing you must obey the commandments( to attain heaven) in my view do not understand what obeying them truly entails. I am not speaking of you when I say this. Paul states the ten commandments are the ministration of death, yet today many give the impression they obey them.
Why do people believe they can well obey what Paul termed the ministration of death? In my view because they do not fully appreciate what obeying those commands entails, Paul did. Hence his words concerning them

If it hasn't already been said here, all of those things that are sin are covered one place or another in the Bible. God said he's put his laws into our hearts, and he did, but I think he also figured he'd better clarify in writing, knowing us the way he does.

 

[mark wright]

If it hasn't already been said here, all of those things that are sin are covered one place or another in the Bible. God said he's put his laws into our hearts, and he did, but I think he also figured he'd better clarify in writing, knowing us the way he does.

Lol I like that!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Lol I like that!

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Maybe he was just doodling with his finger.

Jesus was a preacher who was celibate and who said that some become eunuchs for the Kingdom. And Latin Catholic priests don't marry on account of it. Peter was married, and Jesus made him Pope. So there are even cases where Jesus not only did certain things but said them explicitly, and yet didn't impose them as a rule.

Truth be told, I'd love to emulate Jesus. If I could heal the sick with a touch or a word, that is all I would ever do. I'd walk through and empty hospitals. Roadkill would spring back to life and run off into the woods, sawed-off stumps would sprout new limbs and branches and leaves. Alas, I can't emulate Jesus in this regard no matter how badly I want to, because he won't LET me.

Well okay, lighthearted becomes serious if it must...

First up, we actually have no complete knowledge of what Jesus didn't do. All we know is a few things about what He did, and a few things about what He said. He said much more and did much more than is recorded. So my point remains, claiming morality from absence of information is invalid.

Second, the inability to clear out hospitals is not because "he won't LET" you. He wants that more than you. The problem is authority. Jesus taught us to pray "your kingdom come" because His kingdom hasn't fully come yet. Until we learn how to take back the authority and release the kingdom, we have no right to blame Him. Blame ourselves for sin in the first place, thank God healing is available at all because it was by His stripes that healing was made available for us as a covenantal right.

 

[Vicomte13]

Well okay, lighthearted becomes serious if it must...

First up, we actually have no complete knowledge of what Jesus didn't do. All we know is a few things about what He did, and a few things about what He said. He said much more and did much more than is recorded. So my point remains, claiming morality from absence of information is invalid.

Second, the inability to clear out hospitals is not because "he won't LET" you. He wants that more than you. The problem is authority. Jesus taught us to pray "your kingdom come" because His kingdom hasn't fully come yet. Until we learn how to take back the authority and release the kingdom, we have no right to blame Him. Blame ourselves for sin in the first place, thank God healing is available at all because it was by His stripes that healing was made available for us as a covenantal right.

I'll stick with lighthearted. It is because he won't let me. He could. But he doesn't. He has a different way of going about things.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I'll stick with lighthearted. It is because he won't let me. He could. But he doesn't. He has a different way of going about things.

In the very vaguest sense, perhaps, but you may miss His heart in such theology, that's all I'm saying. You CAN go all out for healing and you WILL see people healed in Jesus Name.

 

[xlr8ing]

Are we not all products of our past sins, and yet still blameless/forgiven through the blood of Christ when we repent? Morality is indeed found in scripture, but are not the babes in the word still drinking milk while others are eating meat?

None of us are blameless to become a moral compass for anyone else. We are to guide one another with love, and scripture.

I agree with asking in the name of Jesus Christ for healing, among many other things.