Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

Soyeong · Aug 26, 2018

Hillsage said:
I don't think I do agree with that. As Ken said all the 10 commandments were known to be sins before Sinai.

Please explain the ways that you think that Israelites gained knowledge of what sin is.

That word for "knowledge" takes on a definition above and beyond what sin is defined as. I think ginosis is more about 'knowledge ABOUT' whereas epiginosis touches a deeper level of 'knowledge OF'. I know that's vague, but I'm not elaborating more than to say Romans 3:20 is epiginosis and 7:7 is ginosis.

Indeed, someone who has committed murder as a more intimate knowledge of that sin than someone who has not, but I am simply speaking about they knew what sin is.

Hopefully my last post helped.

Please be more specific.

What "life" and "death" is Paul talking about in verses 9-11 to put all your opinion into 'context'?

In Romans 7:9-11, the law of sin when God's commandment came because sin seized the opportunity through the commandment to deceive him and slay him, so what was promised life brought death to him. However, Paul said in verse 7:12-13 that the commandment is good and that he did not blame what was good for bringing death to him.

In other words, the command not to covet is good. It is the right way to live and should cause us to repent from coveting, and cause sin to decrease. However, there is something inside of us that causes us not to do the good that we want to do, which leads us to want to do the opposite of what we are told to do, which causes sin to increase. So this law of sin seized the opportunity through being commanded not to covet to cause us to increase our covetousness. However, Paul did not blame the command not to covet for increasing his covetousness, but rather he blamed the law of sin. We have no need to be set free from God's holy, righteous, and good Law, but rather we had the need to be set free from what was hindering us from obeying it.

You are not rightly dividing the difference between the 'temporal consequence'/penalties of SINS with the 'eternal consequence'/penatly of SIN. I make that division to understand differently than you.

I agree that all sin separates us from God, though I would say that some sin separates us farther from God than others. Someone who has murdered millions of people is not on the same level as someone who accidentally ate something that was unclean, though both need to be forgiven of their sins.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
John wrote that sin is the breaking of commandments... so that is the definition regardless of our theological bias'. If God says, "do not steal," and you steal, then you have sinned. I would agree with you that it all begins in the heart... which was the point I made repeatedly to you in your other thread and you didn't seem to grasp it there. Since hate and love are heart conditions, I am glad to see that you finally understand that sin begins in the heart but it is still defined by our actions.

Can anyone prove that is a solid reference to the Ten Commandments?

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I liked what you wrote until here. The law existed before Mount Sinai, I have a collection of commandments that were spoken before they were written. So there was sin before Sinai... Cain was punished, Abraham was said to have kept all of God's commandments and laws, and so forth. At Sinai, Israel was becoming a nation and thus the Law was written, the judgements and ability to prosecute added, and God's law became the law of the land as far as Israel was concerned. So if sin increased it was only because more people knew the extent of the law because it was now written down and read to them every 7 years. But the commandments predate Sinai.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses,
even over those who did not sin by breaking a command,
as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Soyeong · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Can anyone prove that is a solid reference to the Ten Commandments?

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If it was not a reference to the Mosaic Law, then can you please explain how the Israelites gained knowledge of what sin is?

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Hillsage said:
The rich young ruler I think.

~The Rich Young Man
MAR 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
19 You know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'"
20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth."
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

My question here is; Where in 'the commandments/torah' does it say anything about having too much in worldly goods, therefore give it all away?

The commandment, "Do not defraud" is outside the Ten. Therefore the scope of the commandments in that passage is all 613 of the law. Good try though.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Soyeong said:
If it was not a reference to the Mosaic Law, then can you please explain how the Israelites gained knowledge of what sin is?

I am differentiating between "the law" (the whole law) and the Ten Commandments.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

THE W said:
most of the things on that list could be put under 1 or multiple commandments.

Oh course, but they do not address them directly.

Cheylynn · Aug 26, 2018

Dave L said:
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Please consider:

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Now, consider what Jeremiah says:

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

Now consider Christ introduced the New Covenant:

“In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”” (1 Corinthians 11:25)

“who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Thank you,
I see how we now live under the new covenant. But I don't see how the new covenant has abolished the 10 Commandments - as they are now written upon our hearts.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Pride = making yourself equal to God, this sin was committed by Lucifer, Nebuchadnezzar and many many more. Pride violates the commandment to not have any any gods before HIM.

Greed - can violate the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and the commandment not to have any gods before God.

Envy violates the commandment not to covet

Wrath violates the love commandment..

There isn't anything you listed that doesn't violate one of the 10 commandments, if not more than one in some way so your post makes no sense, and the accusation is a falsehood.

You seems to be confused about the commandments. The Ten Commandments are a subset of the law. (the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses) And you are quoting NT commands as if they are part of the Ten Commandments. Better figure this out before you start passing judgment by calling my OP a falsehood.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Cheylynn said:
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:17-18&version=NKJV

How do you destroy a Prophet?

Dave L · Aug 26, 2018

Cheylynn said:
Thank you,
I see how we now live under the new covenant. But I don't see how the new covenant has abolished the 10 Commandments - as they are now written upon our hearts.

It's the Two Great Commandments written on the heart. The Ten were external for unbelievers forcing them to obey under threat of death.

Hank77 · Aug 26, 2018

Soyeong said:
Abraham heard God's voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws (Genesis 26:5).

Joh 8:57 The Jews, therefore, said unto him, `Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?'
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal_3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Obviously the covenant that God made with Abraham was not the law/covenant that was given at Mt Sinai.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
The Ten Commandments are not as easy as they seem. For example, Matthew 5 expounds quite a bit on what the Sixth and Seventh Commandments really cover.

No one said they were easy. And I say they were only given to the Israelites by God through Moses.

Soyeong · Aug 26, 2018

Saint Steven said:
I am differentiating between "the law" (the whole law) and the Ten Commandments.

Sin is any disobedience to God's commands, not just ten of them. In any case, in Romans 3:20, the Law was given to reveal what sin is and in Romans 7:7, Paul wouldn't have known what sin is if it weren't for the Law, such as with the command not to covet, so even if he had been speaking only about the Ten Commandments, they played a role in how the Israelites knew what sin is, so 1 John 3:4 would have at the very least been inclusive of them.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

ebedmelech said:
YES!!! The Ten Commandments define sin. Every sin a person commits has at it's root a violation of one the Ten Commandments as it's base motivation of that sin.

After God gave Moses the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, He goes on to show several examples of how they are violated as He sets the rules as to how He expects Israel to behave among themselves in Exodus 21-23.

Indeed the Law does define sin!

You are changing the question when you expand it to the whole law. That is my point. Those who claim the Ten Commandments define sin are incorrect.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Devin P said:
I just see it differently is all.

Romans 7:7 - 7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul says he had not known what sin was, but that the law told him. He didn't even know what lust was, except that the law told him it was something he wasn't to do.

Then in the 1 John 3:4 verse, it clearly says that "sin is transgression of the law.

1 John 3:4 - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Nothing about the Ten Commandments here.

CodyFaith · Aug 26, 2018

Actually the 10 Commandments is the entire Law summarized. And the 10 Commandments summarized is "love God with all your heart and soul and strength and love your neighbour as yourself" as per Jesus's teaching.

Jews have known in the past and still know today that the 10 commandments are the entire Law. This is part of the spiritual signifigance of Moses recieving the Law on tablets from God's own hands - the 10 commandments.

When one loves God with all of himself and loves his neighbour as himself, he does the entire Law... degressing from the original topic but I felt like adding that.

Saint Steven · Aug 26, 2018

Soyeong said:
Sin is any disobedience to God's commands, not just ten of them. In any case, in Romans 3:20, the Law was given to reveal what sin is and in Romans 7:7, Paul wouldn't have known what sin is if it weren't for the Law, such as with the command not to covet, so even if he had been speaking only about the Ten Commandments, they played a role in how the Israelites knew what sin is, so 1 John 3:4 would have at the very least been inclusive of them.

This topic is to address the incomplete idea that the Ten Commandments (alone) define sin.

Cheylynn · Aug 26, 2018

Dave L said:
It's the Two Great Commandments written on the heart. The Ten were external for unbelievers forcing them to obey under threat of death.

Jesus said in Matthew 22: “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” I take this to mean that on these two commandments ARE all the commandments.
Can you show me in scripture what you are saying

Dave L · Aug 26, 2018

Cheylynn said:
Jesus said in Matthew 22: “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” I take this to mean that on these two commandments ARE all the commandments.
Can you show me in scripture what you are saying

Notice the Ten Commandments hang from the Two Great Commandments. They are not the same. Paul says the Ten are for wicked unbelievers God controlled under threat of death.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

But, if you have the Two Great Commandments in your heart, you will automatically keep the Ten. Because if you love God and people, you won't steal, or murder, or do anything the Ten forbade.

Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

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