Do the scriptures reveal there will be two different raptures for the saints?

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

The 4 living creatures are said to be dressed in white with crowns on their heads.
So prove to me that being dressed in white and having crowns is not what is promised to those who believe. Being dressed in white answers to having God’s righteousness imputed to them. Even a novice can understand that.And what does the scripture say about receiving a crown. A novice can find that out for himself as well.

1 Peter 5::1The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but [a]willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

When weighed in the balance. I have to go with what scripture says over what man says.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
The scripture does not speak in plain language. It doesn’t come right out and say that the cherubim are the immortalized saints because it takes having an interest in these things to find them out. It is the glory of kings To find out a matter.

Again, you are claiming as "proof" extra-biblical statements, along with your own insistence that I take your word for it. I'll never go for that.

But you are dead wrong to say that the Scripture does not speak in plain language. When the Holy Spirit wants us to believe something He is very clear about it.

Do you think Jesus was ambiguous in his call to his Disciples to follow him? No. Do you think the Scriptures were ambiguous when they indicate that Jesus and the Father are one? No. Do you think that Jesus' atonement for our sin, based on his sinless nature and divine status, was ambiguous? No.

Sly kings search out the treasures of fools gold. Good kings use the king's standard to determine what is gold and what is not. Teach doctrine based on the plain language of Scripture. Don't think to interpret it for others without proof.

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Again, you are claiming as "proof" extra-biblical statements, along with your own insistence that I take your word for it. I'll never go for that.

But you are dead wrong to say that the Scripture does not speak in plain language. When the Holy Spirit wants us to believe something He is very clear about it. Do you think Jesus was ambiguous in his call to his Disciples to follow him? No. Do you think the Scriptures were ambiguous when it indicates that Jesus and the Father are one? No. Do you think that Jesus' atonement for our sin, based on his sinless nature and divine status, was ambiguous? No.

Sly kings search out the treasures of fools gold.

I never suggested someone take my word for it. What I’ve said is referenced to what the scripture has said. The prophets are full of representations. One thing for another. I don’t know of any real theologian who would argue elsewise.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
Did Christ not pass into the Most Holy place as our forerunner?
Were not the cherubim in the Most Holy place?
Were not the cherubim placed at the east (entrance)where a flaming sword protected the way to eternal life?
Are not the 4 living creatures answering to the cherubim ?
Do not the 24 elders answer to the 24 divisions of priest?
Are believers not to be priests and kings to their God?
Is not the tabernacle of old a pattern of the true tabernacle in heaven?

I'm not suggesting that any of these points individually are false. But when you try to synchronize them as you do, where no Scriptural statement is certifying your conclusion, I have a responsibility to question your conclusion.

Our call, as believers, to be priests and kings is a fulfillment of the OT priesthood and political leadership that failed under that covenant. But the cherubim, numbering 4, in Eze 1 and in Rev 4, are not said to represent the priesthood.

I could, as political leader, assign 4 guards to ensure that 4 prisoners do not escape detention. The fact that there were 4 guards does not meant they were, in fact, the 4 prisoners.

And yet, this is what you're implying, that because there are 4 cherubim, and there were 4 sets of tribes around the Tabernacles that somehow the 4 cherubim *are* the 4 sets of tribes, or by extension, the NT priesthood. That's quite a stretch!

Or, let's say I assign 24 guards to ensure 24 rogue priests do not escape detention. Does that mean that 24 guards are the 24 priests because they have the same number? Of course not!

One God and Father of All said:
Perhaps you can prove to me these things to be false as you say.

Individual points can be correct whereas the conclusions you draw by their association can be wrong. In this case I do think you're wrong. In my view there is more evidence these 4 cherubim and these 24 elders are more associated with angels than with redeemed men. But is this such a big deal? I don't think so.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
The 4 living creatures are said to be dressed in white with crowns on their heads.
So prove to me that being dressed in white and having crowns is not what is promised to those who believe. Being dressed in white answers to having God’s righteousness imputed to them. Even a novice can understand that.And what does the scripture say about receiving a crown. A novice can find that out for himself as well.

1 Peter 5::1The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but [a]willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

It's a reasonable argument. I just don't agree with it for the reasons I've given you. The cherubim have wings. Humans do not. The cherubim were protecting God's presence from sinful human beings. We humans are sinners.

Perhaps the cherubim were dressed in white and had crowns to reflect the purity that God requires of the redeemed in order to enter God's presence. Do the Scriptures say that the cherubim were sinners who had been redeemed? No.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
When weighed in the balance. I have to go with what scripture says over what man says.

But you're not doing that. You said the Scriptures are not plain, and so you go by what you interpret them as saying--not what Scriptures are plainly saying.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
I never suggested someone take my word for it. What I’ve said is referenced to what the scripture has said. The prophets are full of representations. One thing for another. I don’t know of any real theologian who would argue elsewise.

You want me to go by your interpretation--not what the Scripture reads to theologians. Theologians may surmise this or that, but honest ones admit when things are less than clearly put.

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
You want me to go by your interpretation--not what the Scripture reads to theologians. Theologians may surmise this or that, but honest ones admit when things are less than clearly put.

Are you going to debunk my claims?

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
But you're not doing that. You said the Scriptures are not plain, and so you go by what you interpret them as saying--not what Scriptures are plainly saying.

No, what I’m saying is that we need to take a little here and little there because some things are stated explicitlly.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
Are you going to debunk my claims?

I already have.
1) You admit the Scriptures are not "plain" with respect to your position, which is obviously an "opinion" and not "Scriptural Doctrine."
2) I showed you that association between different sets with the same numbers do not mean they are the same.
3) I showed you cherubim are essentially different from redeemed humans. Nothing indicates they are unsaved or need redemption. They have wings, whereas humans do not.
4) An association between clothing cherubim wear and clothing redeemed humans wear is a *resemblance,* not an *identification.*

There are alternative reasons for the association between cherubim and redeemed humans, without requiring their identification. The cherubim serve the interests of redeemed humanity, even if they are *not* to be identified as redeemed humanity.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
No, what I’m saying is that we need to take a little here and little there because some things are stated explicitlly.

Debatable matters we can debate. Doctrinal matters are plainly stated.

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
It's a reasonable argument. I just don't agree with it for the reasons I've given you. The cherubim have wings. Humans do not. The cherubim were protecting God's presence from sinful human beings. We humans are sinners.

Perhaps the cherubim were dressed in white and had crowns to reflect the purity that God requires of the redeemed in order to enter God's presence. Do the Scriptures say that the cherubim were sinners who had been redeemed? No.

The wings are another proof of what I’m suggesting. Having wings are what the spirit of God represent. Therefore, if the immortal people of God are said to have wings it means that they move by the spirit of God. They can move swiftly as if they had wings. and can judge accurately because they have perfect vision.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
The wings are another proof of what I’m suggesting. Having wings are what the spirit of God represent. Therefore, if the immortal people of God are said to have wings it means that they move by the spirit of God. They can move swiftly as if they had wings. and can judge accurately because they have perfect vision.

Do humans also have "eyes all around?" You are trying to justify your interpretations, your explanations. But that's all they are. The Bible isn't saying this. That's the point.

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Debatable matters we can debate. Doctrinal matters are plainly stated.

The kingdom df God was not plainly stated, it was told in parables or dark sayings. It was what Christ was sent to preach. And instead of simply stating it, he told it using parables. This would separate the wheat from the chaff. Those interested enough to learn what he was saying would follow him, those who thought he was a crack-pot would go their own way.

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Do humans also have "eyes all around?" You are trying to justify your interpretations, your explanations. But that's all they are. The Bible isn't saying this. That's the point.

If the saints are to judge the world, as the scripture says they will, then perfect vision is needed. Seven eyes represent complete vision. In order to judge completely one needs seven eyes.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
The kingdom df God was not plainly stated, it was told in parables or dark sayings. It was what Christ was sent to preach. And instead of simply stating it, he told it using parables. This would separate the wheat from the chaff. Those interested enough to learn what he was saying would follow him, those who thought he was a crack-pot would go their own way.

You are misinterpreting what Jesus meant when he said parables were designed to hide things from the wicked. The wicked have a tough time arguing with truisms and plain-spoken stories about nature. They want to argue words and theology, based on their presuppositions and biases.

Jesus was not, however, saying that truth is not plain to those who have a good heart. Jesus took his close disciples aside at times to speak to them where the wicked could not cause arguments and disrupt the thought.

The Scriptures were not given in riddles. They were given to the Church to clearly understand Christian doctrine. You need to know that.

RandyPNW · Feb 18, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
If the saints are to judge the world, as the scripture says they will, then perfect vision is needed. Seven eyes represent complete vision. In order to judge completely one needs seven eyes.

Oh boy. You need to know that this is *not* Christian teaching! These creatures have eyes all around, including under their wings. Do we need that too to judge perfectly?

One God and Father of All · Feb 18, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Oh boy. You need to know that this is *not* Christian teaching! These creatures have eyes all around, including under their wings. Do we need that too to judge perfectly?

You see, you miss the understanding. Having seven eyes or eyes all around only represents perfect vision. Christ only had two eyes when he entered the Most Holy Place as our forerunner.but he has the ability to see everything around as if he had perfect vision or seven eyes. If the seven eyes are sent throughout the earth it means that the ones sent have perfect vision. They can see all around as one who had seven eyes.
When the saints are sent throughout the earth they move like one having wings, very swiftly. And have seven eyes to see as one who could see all around.

RandyPNW · Feb 19, 2024

One God and Father of All said:
You see, you miss the understanding. Having seven eyes or eyes all around only represents perfect vision. Christ only had two eyes when he entered the Most Holy Place as our forerunner.but he has the ability to see everything around as if he had perfect vision or seven eyes. If the seven eyes are sent throughout the earth it means that the ones sent have perfect vision. They can see all around as one who had seven eyes.
When the saints are sent throughout the earth they move like one having wings, very swiftly. And have seven eyes to see as one who could see all around.

Believe what you will.

Do the scriptures reveal there will be two different raptures for the saints?

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