Do the RCC's official Doctrines deny the total sufficiency of Christs Atonement?

[Criada]

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Stipulations:

1. Topic:Does the RCC's official Doctrines deny the total sufficiency of Christs Atonement (in relation to Salvation, Justification, Propitiation) ?
2. Participants: TheyCallMeDave and catholicbybirth.
3. Rounds: 5
   
4. Alternating rounds starting each with TheyCallMeDave being the first post for a total of 10 posts.
5. Time limit between posts: 1 week maximum, there is no minimum.
6. Maximum length for each post: Limited to 5000 words
   
7. Quotes and References are allowed; Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule.
8. No videos, visual aids are permitted, no more than 2 per post.
   
9. Start Date: Tuesday 5th March 2013

Link to Peanut Gallery here: PEANUT GALLERY - Do the RCC's Doctrines deny the sufficiency of Christ's Atonement?

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Introduction : Gods global plan of salvation by him sending his Son, Jesus, to earth to pay for all of mankinds sins requires that Christs atoning death be totally sufficient to this end . In other words, it must be a completely finished event by Christ himself and permanent in its scope from the time Christ gave us his life on Calvary without the addition of subsequent requirements of an extraneous nature . There is no doubt this is what all Protestants and Roman Catholics would agree with, however...specific formal teachings of the RCC say otherwise . In this cordial Debate, I will be showing 5 seperate teachings found in the official RCC Catechism's latest version which was written by John Paul 2nd and is the current Catechism used by the RCC today ... which directly attacks this pivotal essential Doctrine of the historic Christian Faith .


POINT #1 of 5 ---- 'Purgatory' :


RC'ism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called Purgatory for further purification before entering heaven as follows :


Catholic Catechism -- THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY CCC "1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire".

What makes this doctrine disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists, neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, Gods Word clearly declares that the merits of Christ at Calvary for salvation is a FREE Gift :

'For the wages of sin is death , but the gift of God is eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord ' Romans 6:23.
' By the righteousness of one (Jesus), the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life' Romans 5:18.
'For by grace (free undeserved gift) you are saved (present tense) thru faith and that not of yourselves for it is the gift of God' Ephesians 2:8

If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for futher purification for those who die in Christ because they have already been justified (or made right in Gods eyes) by Jesus :

'Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath thu him' Romans 5:9
'Being justified freely by his grace thru the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' Romans 3:24
'And such were some of you ; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus ' 1 Cor. 6:11 .

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross :

'But now once in the end of the world hath he , Jesus, appeared to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of himself' Hebrews 9:26
'The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he HAD PROVIDED PURIFICATION FOR SINS, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven'


Further, Jesus himself kept repeating to people for them to NOT DIE IN THEIR SINS ..yet the Purgatory Doctrine has people dieing with some leftover sins that need purifying to make the Person suitable for entry to heaven. So, WHO is correct ... a man made Tradition or the Lord himself ?

Gods children are not required to suffer for salvation in any measure because they have been bought and paid for..and this price was the blood of Jesus Christ. The Bible states that 'There is therefore NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ' .. so why is there an official Teaching indicating that purification from the condemnation of personal sins is had after death if Christs atoning work on Calvary was totally sufficient in taking ALL of our sins away and already making us right (justified) in Gods eyes ?

If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the RCC insitute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and masses said on behalf of departed loved ones ?


End of Point # 1 .

David

 

[catholicbybirth]

Hello, Dave, this post is to examine and explain the Catholic teaching of purgatory

Purgatory is the means for those who are saved, yet not pure, to become
pure so they can enter into heaven where only those who are pure can enter.

See: Revelation to John 21:22-27 I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God almighty and the Lamb. The city had no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gave it light, and its lamp was the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light and to it the kings of the earth will bring their treasure. During the day its gates will never be shut, and there will be no night there. The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there, but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any [one] who does abominable thing or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


You see, only those who are clean, iow, pure, can enter into the New Jerusalem, namely heaven.

Also, see 1 Corinthians 3: 10-17 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.

So, what we do with Christ as our foundation, will be tested with fire. That would be not our works, but our souls. It is our souls which will be purified. We will be saved through fire.

For all I know this fire is the Blood of the Lamb. I’m sure when the holiness of Jesus’ blood meets with a repentant but unpure soul, I would not be surprised if it would be burning. Rather like the Burning Bush without the bush being consumed, we will be burning without perishing.

I will be the first to tell you the doctrine of purgatory is not spelled out word for word in the Bible. But that does not make it any less true.

Could you please, explain what you mean by sufficiency?

For in order for Christ’s atonement to be sufficient enough for there not to be a purgatory, it would have to have been sufficient enough to actually take away permanently the sins of the world. Yes, He takes away the sins as we confess them, but if we do not confess and repent, He does not take them away. As long as we sin, there will be a purgatory for us to be cleansed so that we may enter into heaven and spend eternity with the Trinity.

Now to tackle the point you made:

Introduction : Gods global plan of salvation by him sending his Son, Jesus, to earth to pay for all of mankinds sins requires that Christs atoning death be totally sufficient to this end. In other words, it must be a completely finished event by Christ himself and permanent in its scope from the time Christ gave us his life on Calvary without the addition of subsequent requirements of an extraneous nature.

Purgatory is not a punishment. It is a cleansing. I view it as the place where we actually get cleansed by Jesus' blood.

There is no doubt this is what all Protestants and Roman Catholics would agree with, however...specific formal teachings of the RCC say otherwise.

No doubt? Proof. Please provide some.

In this cordial Debate, I will be showing 5 seperate teachings found in the official RCC Catechism's latest version which was written by John Paul 2nd and is the current Catechism used by the RCC today ... which directly attacks this pivotal essential Doctrine of the historic Christian Faith .

The Catechism was not written by JPII. It was more or less commissioned by him. In fact on the title page it states:

Revised in accordance with the official Latin text
promulgated by Pope John Paul II

POINT #1 of 5 ---- 'Purgatory' :


RC'ism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called Purgatory for further purification before entering heaven as follows :


Catholic Catechism -- THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY CCC "1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire".

What makes this doctrine disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists, neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, Gods Word clearly declares that the merits of Christ at Calvary for salvation is a FREE Gift :

The Bible does say that nothing impure can enter heaven. The Bible does say that some sins are going to be forgiven after death. The Bible does say that our works are going to be purified as through fire. The Bible is silent on the word '"Purgatory", just as it is silent on the word "Trinity".

'For the wages of sin is death , but the gift of God is eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord ' Romans 6:23.
' By the righteousness of one (Jesus), the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life' Romans 5:18.
'For by grace (free undeserved gift) you are saved (present tense) thru faith and that not of yourselves for it is the gift of God' Ephesians 2:8

None of those passages say that Purgatory is nonexistent. Please point to a verse, or a passage in the Bible that says Purgatory is man made.

If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for futher purification for those who die in Christ because they have already been justified (or made right in Gods eyes) by Jesus :

'Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath thu him' Romans 5:9
'Being justified freely by his grace thru the redemption that is in Christ Jesus' Romans 3:24
'And such were some of you ; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus ' 1 Cor. 6:11 .

Still not one of these verses states that Purgatory is an erroneous doctrine. Like I said, what is to say that Purgatory is not the place where we actually get washed in Jesus' blood?

And the "some" that Paul refers to as those being washed, could it not be that he is referring to those who have already died? Is that impossible? Is it improbable?

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross :

'But now once in the end of the world hath he , Jesus, appeared to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of himself' Hebrews 9:26
'The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he HAD PROVIDED PURIFICATION FOR SINS, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven'

Please explain what "put away sin" means, as it does not mean "break human attachment to sin", as is evidenced by the continual sinning of humans, even of believers.

Who said that the "purification of sins" wasn't referring to Purgatory? I mean, after Jesus died He didn't sit down at the right had of the Majesty in heaven. After He died, he descended into hell. On the third day He rose. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

IOW, it was a long time (43 days) between His death and His Ascension. What is to say that Purgatory was not what it meant?

Further, Jesus himself kept repeating to people for them to NOT DIE IN THEIR SINS ..yet the Purgatory Doctrine has people dieing with some leftover sins that need purifying to make the Person suitable for entry to heaven. So, WHO is correct ... a man made Tradition or the Lord himself ?

Are you saying that if a believer was to die with sins on his soul, sins for which we have not repented, we are going to hell? Jesus would make provisions for a believer to be purified, surely.

Gods children are not required to suffer for salvation in any measure because they have been bought and paid for..and this price was the blood of Jesus Christ. The Bible states that 'There is therefore NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ' .. so why is there an official Teaching indicating that purification from the condemnation of personal sins is had after death if Christs atoning work on Calvary was totally sufficient in taking ALL of our sins away and already making us right (justified) in Gods eyes ?

Purgatory is not a place of "suffering". It is a place of purifying. What actually happens in Purgatory? We don't know. No one has been through it and has come back to report on it.

If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the RCC insitute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and masses said on behalf of departed loved ones ?

The Bible is not as clear on this subject as you seem to claim. Could you back up your claims with facts?

End of Point # 1 .

David

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

REBUTTAL to Janices comments ----

Hi Janice. You still didnt give answer as to WHY the purification of CHRISTS ATONEMENT wasnt enough to make a Catholic pure and suitable to gain entry to Heaven , for, we are assured in scripture that if we truly trust in the finished work of Christ on Calvary for ALL our many sins... that we have (present tense) the very righteousness of Christ :
2 Corinthians 5:21-6:2 NIV - God made him who had no sin to be sin - Bible Gateway . And its Christs righteousness imputed to us that is of immense purity. If we have this, then that nullifies the need for a Purgatory to purify and cleanses us . In fact, John 5:24 states explicitly that we HAVE crossed over from darkness unto light and we are thus seen as having the same righteousness Christ has, in Gods eyes. Scripture tells us that we not only HAVE (present tense) Christs righteousness, but that we are seated in a positional sense WITH CHRIST in the heavenlies -- Ephesians chapter 2. Christ has done for us on calvary, what no external means could ever do....a fanciful Purgatory included.

If we are a true genuine Christian, we have already been washed clean in the shed blood of Jesus and we can KNOW FOR SURE that we have eternal life with God based on what Jesus had DONE for us ..this is explicitly highlighted in 1 John 5:13 ., in John giving assurance to Christ Followers that they HAVE Heaven . Again, this nullifies a future Purgatory because the purging of the Soul has been accomplished by Jesus already.

For true Christians whove gotton their sins washed by the blood of the Lamb on Calvary, it is ONLY their subsequent works that are tested by fire...and NOT their Soul, for, their Soul has already been saved.

Correct that Purgatory is not in the Bible, for, according to CCC1031, it even tells us how the concept came to exist : From the Council of Trent as a human devised idea. How could these Councilmen get such information regarding the afterlife if (by your own admission) no one has ever come back from Purgatory to tell us about it ? Re: The term 'Trinity' in the Bible .... while its true that this word is not used in scripture, the concept certainly is and was demonstrated by Jesus himself on several occasions ; the term 'Purgatory' neither exists in scripture nor is its concept either , for if it were, it would be a direct affront on the total sufficiency of what Christ accomplished for us on the cross.

By 'sufficiency' as it relates to Christs Atonement, Im referring to the completion / what Christ set out to accomplish / and what we have as a result of that ; in summary : That his death sacrifice is and was sufficient to save us, to purify us, to cleanse us, and to eradicate the guilt and punishment of our sins....and that NO OTHER external means is therefore required. So, a person either places his entire trust in what Christ did, or, the person doesnt by trying to make himself more suitable . Such is what the many doctrines of RCism explicitly demands . Christ himself shouted from the cross :'It is FINISHED' -- the sin debt has been paid in full (Aramaic - Testelestai) ... yet the RCC says 'NO...Jesus only opened the door for us to finish the job of justification and salvation' . This very issue has eternal consequences because it shows what the person is truly TRUSTING in. Thats why is must be gotton correct. Madeup teachings are not the correct way.

JP2 endorsed and blessed the current Catechism Book , is the point im trying to make.

When the Bible says that 'He (CHrist) put away our sin), it simple means that he paid the ultimate price for God to see us as now having the righteousness of Christ his Son because there is no further purification required --- Jesus did it all 2000 years ago . Will you, Janice, allow that of Jesus in your life....or....will you continue to trust in an alleged future event called 'purgatory' to finally do the job ? If you do, then youre not trusting in the finished sufficient merits of Christ done for you on calvary. It cant be both ways. Must be Christ alone.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

POINT NUMBER 2 of 5 :

DOING PENANCE

RCC Catechism # 1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance".


A billion or so Catholics around the world faithfully perform penance and believe that these good works are required by God to make amends for thier sins and to restore them to 'full spiritual health' . However, this practice is another madeup tradition of men that defies Gods Word and degrades the work Christ did on the cross. As we have already covered, Christ paid the full price for our sins on Calvary. To believe that good works are necessary to recover ones full spiritual health is to deny Gods Word. God makes this promise to all who put their faith and TRUST in Jesus' atoning work :

'And their sins and iniquities will i remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin' --- Hebrews 10:17-18 .

There arent any works you can do that will cause your sins to be forgiven because Christ did it all.


RCC Catechism # 1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him" .


The Catechism even defines specific good works that can constitute penance as listed above. But God never demanded good works for forgiveness of sins : "For thou, Lord, are good and ready to forgive...and plenteous in mercy to all what call upon thee" --- Psalm 86:5.

The Bible declares that Christians are justified thru Jesus Christ ...and NOT good works : ' Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but BY THE FAITH of Jesus Christ...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" --- Galatians 2:16.


RCC Catechism # 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead" .


The RCC even goes as far as to suggest that penance peformed can even help the dead . This too violates scripture directly . Like cement blocks on a concrete wall, they keep piling on the madeup traditions of men with every one violating the clear teachings of scripture.


Rhetorical questions :

1. Is it a coincidence that this unbiblical doctrine keeps people in bondage to the RCC ?
2. Why does RCism again demote Jesus Christ by insisting that his sacrifice was not sufficient and that Catholics must add their own sacrifice to pay for sins ?
3. Who will you side with : The madeup teachings of men, or, the Word of God as listed in this treatise ? Where does your trust belong ?


End of Point 2 of 5 .

 

[catholicbybirth]

REBUTTAL to Janices comments ----

Hi Janice. You still didnt give answer as to WHY the purification of CHRISTS ATONEMENT wasnt enough to make a Catholic pure and suitable to gain entry to Heaven.....snip

I did. You just didn't want to understand the Catholic way of thinking. Christ death is sufficient for those who are born to be able to get to heaven, to be saved. But that does not mean we do not have to suffer. That does not mean we do not still have an attachment to sin. That does not mean that we have automatically been cleansed by the blood of Christ.

If the blood of Christ has already cleansed us, why do we still sin? Does Christ's blood have no power over sin? No, that is not it. We have not been cleansed yet.

We will be cleansed with the Blood of Christ in Purgatory.

Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

Faith, without works is dead.

This is all I'm going to debate about Purgatory. Except to say, I will glorify God in heaven once I am washed with Christ's blood in Purgatory.

IOW, you have made your point, with which I thoroughly disagree. No point in beating a dead horse, so they say.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

POINT NUMBER 2 of 5 :

DOING PENANCE

RCC Catechism # 1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance".


A billion or so Catholics around the world faithfully perform penance and believe that these good works are required by God to make amends for thier sins and to restore them to 'full spiritual health' . However, this practice is another madeup tradition of men that defies Gods Word and degrades the work Christ did on the cross. As we have already covered, Christ paid the full price for our sins on Calvary. To believe that good works are necessary to recover ones full spiritual health is to deny Gods Word. God makes this promise to all who put their faith and TRUST in Jesus' atoning work :

'And their sins and iniquities will i remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin' --- Hebrews 10:17-18 .

Ah, you misunderstand penance if you think it is an offering to God. Yes, it can be prayers to God that we are given as a penance. But is a prayer, an offering for sin? No, it is multiple things, but not an offering for sin by any stretch of the imagination. I've been told to read a certain Psalm, different ones depending on my sins, or even a section of the NT. It just depends. Sometimes, it has to do with doing something to help others, not to be an offering for sin, but as a way for me to reflect on what I have done.

If you read the story of the Prodigal Son in the Gospel according to Luke, you will see the Prodigal son recognized that he had sinned against both God and his father. I firmly believe that when I sin, I not only sin against others, but against myself, and also against God. Why? Because the Bible says I do.

There arent any works you can do that will cause your sins to be forgiven because Christ did it all.

You are right. Christ did everything to cause my sins to be forgiven, short of my asking for forgiveness. The Apostles stated over and over again that people had to repent in order to be saved.

Also, the penance that I do is not to cause my sins to be forgiven, they had already been forgiven by that point. The penance that I do is to help me break my attachment to my sins. Say that I am a teenager and I disrespect my parents constantly. Every time I go to confession, I am sorry that I do these things. But every time I go to confession, it is the same sins that I confess. IOW, I have an attachment to those particular sins. I want to stop, but my parents keep pushing my buttons, so to speak. As soon as I am disrespectful, I remember, and my conscience bothers me. The penance is to help us understand that God's grace is there in abundance for us, if we would only accept it. Then, only with God's grace, can we stop sinning in that way.

Also, when we sin, we turn from God, thus causing a rift in our relationship to God. When we ask for forgiveness, we turn back to God and He blesses us abundantly by forgiving our sins, and bestowing His grace on us. Praise God, for He is good, His mercy endures forever.

RCC Catechism # 1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him" .


The Catechism even defines specific good works that can constitute penance as listed above. But God never demanded good works for forgiveness of sins : "For thou, Lord, are good and ready to forgive...and plenteous in mercy to all what call upon thee" --- Psalm 86:5.

The Bible declares that Christians are justified thru Jesus Christ ...and NOT good works : ' Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but BY THE FAITH of Jesus Christ...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" --- Galatians 2:16.

We have those books in our Bible, too. Doing penance is not a work of the law. The works of the law is referring to the works of the Jewish Law, you know circumcision, not eating pork, etc.

As I said above, our sins are already forgiven when we get a penance. Would you believe that sins can be forgiven and no penance is given? It happened to me, once. The priest told me I already had a full plate of hardships and he did not think he should add anything more. I was shocked and was afraid that it was not a valid Sacrament of Reconcilliation, though I was informed that it was by a priest who I trust knows what is what. The priest I consulted stated the Jesus didn't give the woman caught in adultery a penance, either.

RCC Catechism # 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead" .


The RCC even goes as far as to suggest that penance peformed can even help the dead . This too violates scripture directly . Like cement blocks on a concrete wall, they keep piling on the madeup traditions of men with every one violating the clear teachings of scripture.

The Catholic Church teaches that all Christians are affected by each other as we are all members of the Body of Chrit. Therefore, if I fast and give alms (very Biblical, I might add) then that would could help out other members of the Body of Christ. We also believe that those Christians who have gone to their reward in Heaven are part of the Body of Christ. We believe, likewise, that those who are in Purgatory are part of the Body of Christ. Death does not a Christian kill. Death has not power over us, as Christ destroyed the power of death by His resurrection. Those on earth are the Church Militant, those in Purgatory are the Church Suffering, those in Heaven are the Church Triumphant. We are all joined in the Body of Christ. If any part of the Body of Christ needs buffering up, another part can boost it by Works of Charity or Works of Mercy. We do not even have to know about another Christian who is needing help.

We do not know how long someone stays in Purgatory. We only know that our prayers and works that we do, the God has prepared us to do, will help them. We are but One Body.

Rhetorical questions :

1. Is it a coincidence that this unbiblical doctrine keeps people in bondage to the RCC ?

There is nothing unBiblical about the Catholic Church.

2. Why does RCism again demote Jesus Christ by insisting that his sacrifice was not sufficient and that Catholics must add their own sacrifice to pay for sins ?

We don't. Nothing we do pays for our sins or anyone's sins. The Catholic Church doesn't tell us that we do pay for our own sins or anyone else's sins. Christ's death paid the price for sins. This is what the Catholic Church teaches and this is what I believe.

3. Who will you side with : The madeup teachings of men, or, the Word of God as listed in this treatise ? Where does your trust belong ?

You have given a false premise. You start with the premise that the treatise has proclaimed the Word of God without error. I don't agree with that premise. The only made up teachings of men, in the world of Christianity, started with Martin Luther, was carried forward by John Calvin, and has not stopped yet.

The Catholic Church is kept from error in Teachings on Faith and Morals by the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus Christ promised.

My trust is in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

End of Point 2 of 5 .

I truly hope we are not going to visit and revisit each of your 5 points during this debate. If we do, the posts will get longer than the allowed space we have. I would like to deal with one topic at a time.

If you would like to delve deeper into each of your 5 points, then we can debate each point you make at a later time to the exclusion of anything else. You could come up with points from my replies, couldn't you? Otherwise, this present debate could get a bit messy.

Janice

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Hi Janice,

I did get permission from the Moderator to give a Rebuttal each time to your reply on the POINT ; and if you want to make a final comment to my Rebuttal , then thats fine and ill let you have the final word before I move onto the next POINT . So, here we go :

REBUTTAL (Penance) :

The Bible is clear that we should make restitution to those we have harmed or offended by going to them and expressing our regret, asking for forgiveness, so the relationship may be reconciled. The Bible says to go and so such a thing even before taking Communion . BUT, the Bible never indicates that we have to 'do a work to earn back our spiritual health' in expiating a committed sin
. In fact, 1 John 1:9 says all we are expected to do is to confess the sin . Now...based on my experience, its common for the Catholic to then assert 'Well then...you can just go around sinning all you like cause you just have to confess it' . That of course, is fallacious, for, the grace of God should never be a credit-card to commit sin for anyone who professes to be a Christian. But we are gauranteed COMPLETED spiritual health based on the blood sacrifice that Jesus himself has done for us with the Bible saying there is therefore no condemnation or requirement to be forgiven . By the well meaning Catholic personally trying to perform a meritorious work thru the action of penance (doing something) to expiate a sin committed , it is NOT trusting in the FINISHED 'penance work' that Christ himself accomplished once for all time.

Further, God calls us to RE-pent of our sins...and not to do that PLUS work off a sin so to expiate it. In essence, doing a penance IS an offered work to restore a persons spiritual health but in accordance to a legalistic standard that again was formulated by the invention of men at a Council . You can say that it is 'the Catholic way' of doing things, however, The Bible says that we will be judged according to THE BIBLE and what it says ... and not on any extraneous / additional way. So, it comes down to whether one should be following 'the Catholic way' which is almost entirely added inventions of men over the centuries as a requirement to eventually be eternally saved...or....follow the Biblical way which is based on the pure simple Gospel of Christ to get eternal life starting NOW, which can only be based on Jesus Christ from start to finish (that is..his person, his life, death, and ressurection just as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 explicitly describes what the Gospel is ; in that description you simply dont find a bunch of legalistic demands and requirements ...it so easy that even a child can understand it and be saved based on what Jesus did and not what we can do) . That makes ALL works-oriented Religions totally null and void and in fact a black eye toward the real Gospel of Christ.

The works of the law, applies to ANY law/regulation/rule/demand that One tries to infuse into the free undeserved gift of God , called Grace . Gal. 2:14 simply says that abiding by such things have no efficacious merit for you cant be justified by trying to keep these laws..but only because you have relied on the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to the person ( an imputation that , by the way, is explicitly denounced in RCC Canon Law deserving of anathema or eternal damnation ) . So again, we must decide which we are going to go with : What the Word of God tells you on how to be justified with God, or, to another manmade Canon which pronounces eternal damanation to anyone to believes in Galatians 2:14 . Which is true ? : The Catholic way or the way of infallable holy inspired Scripture which is even part of your catholic Bible ?

Lastly, Martin Luther and Calvin and Others....were staunch Roman Catholics who had the insight and courage to see which way their Church was heading via the many madeup inventions of Councilmen and Popes and were absolutely correct and noble to choose The Bible over the Catholic Way of legalism upon legalism and demanding Followers abide by it. These are the very things which Jesus himself scorned the Pharisees about in Matthew 15 and Mark 7 by saying :' You disregard the Word of God for the sake of your makeup traditions' to which he went on to call them a Brood of Vipers. Can we see some correlation between the Catholic Way and Pharisees of Jesus' day ? Absolutely ! Both employ legalistic tactics and teachings thru hoop-jumping and even such things as parading around in fancy silk garb and opulence to impress their Followers . This is plainly a form of spiritual bondage ; something that Jesus said we could be set free from by his very simple Gospel that saves. Freedom from this bondage in the 1500's came at the ultimate price for many many thousands of committed Bible loyalists .... to the point of being burned alive to light the path for vicious Popes to walk down at night, dismemberment, and beheading. Something the RCC has never apologized for, even today .

Finally, the RCC has NOT been kept from error by the Holy Spirit ; you are only told it has via Papal manmade doctrines under the pretense that the Pope cant be mistaken when speaking ex-cathedra. But upon scrutiny, we plainly see that the manmade legalism denies the TRUE inerrancy of Gods Word time and time again as i have clearly demonstrated thus far . And now, i shall move onto POINT #3 of 5 which will further confirm this atrocity.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POINT 3 : Mary 'saves us'

In this POINT, we will examine what the common Catholic REALLY thinks (or is expected to embrace) about Mary in accordance to RCC official Doctrine AND ex-cathedra Marion Prayers by the Pope (JP2) himself ...which gives Mary the same power and abilities that only God himself occupies. This too is a gross affront to the Diety of Christ and what Christ fully accomplished on the Cross for us ,thereby showing that the Catholic Jesus differs from the Biblical Jesus .

RCC / CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"

and....CCC494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word." Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace".

Are these official RCC Doctrines scriptural ? Acording to Gods Word, Mary has NEVER had anything to do with the salvation process necessary to redeem and justify us. The Bible says ONLY one person has :

Acts 4:12 ---- ' Neither is there salvation in any other, for, there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Jesus alone) ' .

Jesus himself declared HE was the ONLY way to heaven in John 14:6 and John 10:9 by the Apostle John .
Yet RCC/CCC 1172 insists : " She (Mary) is inseperately linked with the saving work of her Son"

Who shall we believe ...more Church tradition or the Bible itself ?

Above in CCC494, we are told that Mary was/is without one single sin ; yet in the Bible in Luke chapter 2 Mary rejoices in Jesus 'her SAVIOR' of sins . So, how did we go from Mary admitting she too was a sinner to her never having sinned ? Here we see the problem with madeup inventions...their lies eventually get around to exposing themselves as such .

Moving on....The Rosary , which is used in keeping track of prayers using 'special' beads , may not be a formal official Doctrine of the RCC, yet I have never met a Catholic who does not faithfully believe in the Rosary and its alleged merits if faithfully obeyed. There are 15 'Promises' Mary gives but i shall address just number 5 and number 10 in particular out of the total :

Number 5 indicates that Mary has the distinct power to prevent someone from perishing if they use the Marion Rosary. Number 10 allegedly gauranteeing a higher standing or reward in Heaven according to 'Mary' if the Rosary is faithfully used. These have to rank amongst the epitomie of heresies based on just a cursory understanding of the Bibles New Testament of ONLY God himself having such power and reward giving. How did Mary get these divine attributes and how come glory is again stolem from Jesus and given to Mary ? These may be 'the Catholic way' but they completely nullify the Word of God instead of them bolstering holy scripture ; further, they are an incredilble offense to our Lord and Savior. , thereby originating in the pit of hell for sure.

Further, its also popular for Catholics to tell us that 'We dont worship Mary and we dont ascribe to her divine qualities' in an effort to defend their veneration of Mary . But as seen above , in addition to the following OFFICIAL JP2 Marian Prayer delivered from his chair (ex cathedra) meaning it is 'THE truth and never a lie ...allegedly speaking thru the Holy Spirits prompting...we see definitive confirmation that Mary is elevated to Godhood in the powers JP2 gives and expects from Mary herewith :

Marian Prayer of JPII which says :

THE MARIAN PRAYER OF
POPE JOHN-PAUL II

Mother of the Redeemer,
with great joy we call you blessed.
In order to carry out His plan of salvation,
God the Father chose you before the creation of the world.
You believed in His love and obeyed His word.
The Son of God desired you for His Mother
when He became man to save the human race.
You received Him with ready obedience and undivided heart.
The Holy Spirit loved you as His mystical spouse
and filled you with singular gifts.
You allowed yourself to be led
by His hidden powerful action.
On the eve of the third Christian Millennium,
we entrust to you the Church
which acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother.

To you, Mother of human family and of the nations,
we confidently entrust the whole humanity,
with its hopes and fears.
Do no let it lack the light of true wisdom.
Guide its steps in the ways of peace.
Enable all to meet Christ,
the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary.

In regard to the last paragraph, here we see the culmination of Marion heresy with :

1. Mary, not God alone, being in charge of the whole of humanity.
2. Mary, not God alone, being trusted with every persons hopes and fears they have.
3. Mary 'enabling' all to meet Christ instead of the Holy Spirits convicting work in ones heart.
4. Mary 'obtaining' for us the Grace of eternal salvation instead of the finished work of Christ on calvary which gets us Gods mercy for eternal salvation.
5. Mary will 'sustain us' thru our lifes travels instead of God alone who is capable.

If Mary plays such a role in salvation, why didnt God tell us so in the Bible ? Why does the RCC want people looking to Mary instead of Jesus alone for salvation which is what the Bible declares over and over again ?

What should we trust ? : The total impossibilities of merits coming from the Catholic Mary by being elevated to Godhood as officially pronounced from an 'infallable' Pope to the masses....or....the infallable/inerrant Word of God which Jesus said is THE TRUTH ?

End of Point #3.

 

[catholicbybirth]

Hi Janice,

I did get permission from the Moderator to give a Rebuttal each time to your reply on the POINT ; and if you want to make a final comment to my Rebuttal , then thats fine and ill let you have the final word before I move onto the next POINT . So, here we go :

REBUTTAL (Penance) :

The Bible is clear that we should make restitution to those we have harmed or offended by going to them and expressing our regret, asking for forgiveness, so the relationship may be reconciled. The Bible says to go and so such a thing even before taking Communion . BUT, the Bible never indicates that we have to 'do a work to earn back our spiritual health' in expiating a committed sin
. In fact, 1 John 1:9 says all we are expected to do is to confess the sin . Now...based on my experience, its common for the Catholic to then assert 'Well then...you can just go around sinning all you like cause you just have to confess it' . That of course, is fallacious, for, the grace of God should never be a credit-card to commit sin for anyone who professes to be a Christian. But we are gauranteed COMPLETED spiritual health based on the blood sacrifice that Jesus himself has done for us with the Bible saying there is therefore no condemnation or requirement to be forgiven . By the well meaning Catholic personally trying to perform a meritorious work thru the action of penance (doing something) to expiate a sin committed , it is NOT trusting in the FINISHED 'penance work' that Christ himself accomplished once for all time.

Further, God calls us to RE-pent of our sins...and not to do that PLUS work off a sin so to expiate it. In essence, doing a penance IS an offered work to restore a persons spiritual health but in accordance to a legalistic standard that again was formulated by the invention of men at a Council . You can say that it is 'the Catholic way' of doing things, however, The Bible says that we will be judged according to THE BIBLE and what it says ... and not on any extraneous / additional way. So, it comes down to whether one should be following 'the Catholic way' which is almost entirely added inventions of men over the centuries as a requirement to eventually be eternally saved...or....follow the Biblical way which is based on the pure simple Gospel of Christ to get eternal life starting NOW, which can only be based on Jesus Christ from start to finish (that is..his person, his life, death, and ressurection just as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 explicitly describes what the Gospel is ; in that description you simply dont find a bunch of legalistic demands and requirements ...it so easy that even a child can understand it and be saved based on what Jesus did and not what we can do) . That makes ALL works-oriented Religions totally null and void and in fact a black eye toward the real Gospel of Christ.

The works of the law, applies to ANY law/regulation/rule/demand that One tries to infuse into the free undeserved gift of God , called Grace . Gal. 2:14 simply says that abiding by such things have no efficacious merit for you cant be justified by trying to keep these laws..but only because you have relied on the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to the person ( an imputation that , by the way, is explicitly denounced in RCC Canon Law deserving of anathema or eternal damnation ) . So again, we must decide which we are going to go with : What the Word of God tells you on how to be justified with God, or, to another manmade Canon which pronounces eternal damanation to anyone to believes in Galatians 2:14 . Which is true ? : The Catholic way or the way of infallable holy inspired Scripture which is even part of your catholic Bible ?

Lastly, Martin Luther and Calvin and Others....were staunch Roman Catholics who had the insight and courage to see which way their Church was heading via the many madeup inventions of Councilmen and Popes and were absolutely correct and noble to choose The Bible over the Catholic Way of legalism upon legalism and demanding Followers abide by it. These are the very things which Jesus himself scorned the Pharisees about in Matthew 15 and Mark 7 by saying :' You disregard the Word of God for the sake of your makeup traditions' to which he went on to call them a Brood of Vipers. Can we see some correlation between the Catholic Way and Pharisees of Jesus' day ? Absolutely ! Both employ legalistic tactics and teachings thru hoop-jumping and even such things as parading around in fancy silk garb and opulence to impress their Followers . This is plainly a form of spiritual bondage ; something that Jesus said we could be set free from by his very simple Gospel that saves. Freedom from this bondage in the 1500's came at the ultimate price for many many thousands of committed Bible loyalists .... to the point of being burned alive to light the path for vicious Popes to walk down at night, dismemberment, and beheading. Something the RCC has never apologized for, even today .

Finally, the RCC has NOT been kept from error by the Holy Spirit ; you are only told it has via Papal manmade doctrines under the pretense that the Pope cant be mistaken when speaking ex-cathedra. But upon scrutiny, we plainly see that the manmade legalism denies the TRUE inerrancy of Gods Word time and time again as i have clearly demonstrated thus far . And now, i shall move onto POINT #3 of 5 which will further confirm this atrocity.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POINT 3 : Mary 'saves us'

In this POINT, we will examine what the common Catholic REALLY thinks (or is expected to embrace) about Mary in accordance to RCC official Doctrine AND ex-cathedra Marion Prayers by the Pope (JP2) himself ...which gives Mary the same power and abilities that only God himself occupies. This too is a gross affront to the Diety of Christ and what Christ fully accomplished on the Cross for us ,thereby showing that the Catholic Jesus differs from the Biblical Jesus .

RCC / CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"

and....CCC494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word." Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace".

Are these official RCC Doctrines scriptural ? Acording to Gods Word, Mary has NEVER had anything to do with the salvation process necessary to redeem and justify us. The Bible says ONLY one person has :

Acts 4:12 ---- ' Neither is there salvation in any other, for, there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Jesus alone) ' .

Jesus himself declared HE was the ONLY way to heaven in John 14:6 and John 10:9 by the Apostle John .
Yet RCC/CCC 1172 insists : " She (Mary) is inseperately linked with the saving work of her Son"

Who shall we believe ...more Church tradition or the Bible itself ?

Above in CCC494, we are told that Mary was/is without one single sin ; yet in the Bible in Luke chapter 2 Mary rejoices in Jesus 'her SAVIOR' of sins . So, how did we go from Mary admitting she too was a sinner to her never having sinned ? Here we see the problem with madeup inventions...their lies eventually get around to exposing themselves as such .

Moving on....The Rosary , which is used in keeping track of prayers using 'special' beads , may not be a formal official Doctrine of the RCC, yet I have never met a Catholic who does not faithfully believe in the Rosary and its alleged merits if faithfully obeyed. There are 15 'Promises' Mary gives but i shall address just number 5 and number 10 in particular out of the total :

Number 5 indicates that Mary has the distinct power to prevent someone from perishing if they use the Marion Rosary. Number 10 allegedly gauranteeing a higher standing or reward in Heaven according to 'Mary' if the Rosary is faithfully used. These have to rank amongst the epitomie of heresies based on just a cursory understanding of the Bibles New Testament of ONLY God himself having such power and reward giving. How did Mary get these divine attributes and how come glory is again stolem from Jesus and given to Mary ? These may be 'the Catholic way' but they completely nullify the Word of God instead of them bolstering holy scripture ; further, they are an incredilble offense to our Lord and Savior. , thereby originating in the pit of hell for sure.

Further, its also popular for Catholics to tell us that 'We dont worship Mary and we dont ascribe to her divine qualities' in an effort to defend their veneration of Mary . But as seen above , in addition to the following OFFICIAL JP2 Marian Prayer delivered from his chair (ex cathedra) meaning it is 'THE truth and never a lie ...allegedly speaking thru the Holy Spirits prompting...we see definitive confirmation that Mary is elevated to Godhood in the powers JP2 gives and expects from Mary herewith :

Marian Prayer of JPII which says :

THE MARIAN PRAYER OF
POPE JOHN-PAUL II

Mother of the Redeemer,
with great joy we call you blessed.
In order to carry out His plan of salvation,
God the Father chose you before the creation of the world.
You believed in His love and obeyed His word.
The Son of God desired you for His Mother
when He became man to save the human race.
You received Him with ready obedience and undivided heart.
The Holy Spirit loved you as His mystical spouse
and filled you with singular gifts.
You allowed yourself to be led
by His hidden powerful action.
On the eve of the third Christian Millennium,
we entrust to you the Church
which acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother.

To you, Mother of human family and of the nations,
we confidently entrust the whole humanity,
with its hopes and fears.
Do no let it lack the light of true wisdom.
Guide its steps in the ways of peace.
Enable all to meet Christ,
the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary.

In regard to the last paragraph, here we see the culmination of Marion heresy with :

1. Mary, not God alone, being in charge of the whole of humanity.
2. Mary, not God alone, being trusted with every persons hopes and fears they have.
3. Mary 'enabling' all to meet Christ instead of the Holy Spirits convicting work in ones heart.
4. Mary 'obtaining' for us the Grace of eternal salvation instead of the finished work of Christ on calvary which gets us Gods mercy for eternal salvation.
5. Mary will 'sustain us' thru our lifes travels instead of God alone who is capable.

If Mary plays such a role in salvation, why didnt God tell us so in the Bible ? Why does the RCC want people looking to Mary instead of Jesus alone for salvation which is what the Bible declares over and over again ?

What should we trust ? : The total impossibilities of merits coming from the Catholic Mary by being elevated to Godhood as officially pronounced from an 'infallable' Pope to the masses....or....the infallable/inerrant Word of God which Jesus said is THE TRUTH ?

End of Point #3.

We do not look to Mary for our Salvation. Nothing, but nothing the Catholic Church teaches points to that. Is your "thing" making up strawmen only to tear them down?

You win. I default. I will not discuss what Catholicism teaches with you because you don't listen to what is really taught by the Catholic Church.

Look for someone else to convince that you are right and the Catholic Church is wrong.

If you really want to pick apart the Catholic Church, find something she really teaches and not some far flung made up nonsense.

Thank you for opening my eyes to the lies there are against Catholicism. I didn't know those lies were still being taught.

Janice

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

CLOSING COMMENTS---

Janice, I told you initially in a PM that this Debate wasnt about 'winning a Dialogue' for me, and that i would be heavily scrutinizing the Official Doctrines of the RCC based on their own Sources by comparing them to the Word of God. In such a debate as this, it IS necessary to pick-apart , analyze , and compare . Ive done this very fairly by appealing ONLY to Roman Catholic Sources , namely .... the latest RCC Catechism/Canon Law/and Papal Prayers ex-cathedra .... so im afraid that your assertion that i 'lied' and commited Strawmen tactics is invalid and disengenuous in light of the R.C. evidence i produced.


I also stated in my initial PM to you, that, I hoped you would favor Gods Word as the absolute truth Source instead of an extraneous Catholic Way of understanding that you were raised on and which is based on invented religious traditions , since its Gods Word ALONE that we will be held accountable to . This is why its imperative we get The Gospel of Christ correct which is all about Christ himself from start to finish for our salvation and justification ...without adding one iota of extraneous, madeup, additional method thinking that personal meritorious works will be efficacous toward (eventually) getting saved. There is no work, deed, or other Person ..Mary included.. that can be infused with the FINISHED totally sufficient atoning sacrifice that our Lord Jesus Christ has provided . And it is THIS, that i leave you with trusting you will embrace and own this truth. If you wish to talk further, i am always available to you via PM.


Thank you for participating Janice , David.


(end)

Attn Moderator : I guess this will conclude the Debate, so, thanks for facilitating .