Do the ends justify the means?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is it sound thinking for a Christian to plan for something that he or she regards as good and godly yet achieving this good and godly outcome demands actions and words that are deceptive?

It is worth noting that the scriptures contain some examples where deception is used to achieve an outcome that receives commendation in later scriptures. An example is Rahab of Jericho saying (untruthfully) that the spies from Israel had departed the city.

Joshua 2:1 Then Joshua sent two spies from the camp at Acacia with orders to go and secretly explore the land of Canaan, especially the city of Jericho. When they came to the city, they went to spend the night in the house of a prostitute named Rahab. 2 The king of Jericho heard that some Israelites had come that night to spy out the country, 3 so he sent word to Rahab: "The men in your house have come to spy out the whole country! Bring them out!" 4 "Some men did come to my house," she answered, "but I don't know where they were from. They left at sundown before the city gate was closed. I didn't find out where they were going, but if you start after them quickly, you can catch them." (Now Rahab had taken the two spies up on the roof and hidden them under some stalks of flax that she had put there.)

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[Pavel Mosko]

For the most part no, and even in some rare cases where it would see the answer is potentially yes the nature of what is going on is probably much more involved than what people might suspect. That is something I tend to argue in regards to the various "genocide" and other passages in the Old Testament where some morally dubious things take place.


Utilitarian morality has got lots of problems! God often does lots of stuff in the Bible where His ways go beyond pragmaticism and other kinds of cost benefit analysis, and of course the potential for conflicts of interest and self deception are big big factors in regards to such things as "situational ethics" but many people are often blind to such things (that they may be under undue influence by their own desires).


I once read a great article on Lord Acton's ""Power Corrupts" that is generally misquoted or people get the wrong message from that saying.

Might vs. Right | National Review

 

[Jonaitis]

Is it sound thinking for a Christian to plan for something that he or she regards as good and godly yet achieving this good and godly outcome demands actions and words that are deceptive?

It is worth noting that the scriptures contain some examples where deception is used to achieve an outcome that receives commendation in later scriptures. An example is Rahab of Jericho saying (untruthfully) that the spies from Israel had departed the city.

Joshua 2:1 Then Joshua sent two spies from the camp at Acacia with orders to go and secretly explore the land of Canaan, especially the city of Jericho. When they came to the city, they went to spend the night in the house of a prostitute named Rahab. 2 The king of Jericho heard that some Israelites had come that night to spy out the country, 3 so he sent word to Rahab: "The men in your house have come to spy out the whole country! Bring them out!" 4 "Some men did come to my house," she answered, "but I don't know where they were from. They left at sundown before the city gate was closed. I didn't find out where they were going, but if you start after them quickly, you can catch them." (Now Rahab had taken the two spies up on the roof and hidden them under some stalks of flax that she had put there.)​

If we openly approach the text of Scripture honestly, there are many, many examples where the means was justified for the ends by God, and some of them were very dark and unlike what we would expect. Who remembers when God lied to Ahab, that later caused the king's death, by sending lying spirits to all of Ahab's prophets? You'll find it in 1 Kings 22:21-23. This seems out of God's moral character, yet it was fine with Him for the end purposes. We must conclude that such matters are ultimately, but not relatively, grey to God, who is beyond both good and evil.

 

[Jonaitis]

God often does lots of stuff in the Bible where His ways go beyond pragmaticism and other kinds of cost benefit analysis, and of course the potential for conflicts of interest and self deception are big big factors in regards

I am currently reading through first Samuel again, and I came to the passage where Saul had disobeyed God by sparing the Amalekites' spoil that He commanded to be devoted to destruction. I use to think, Saul deserved to have his kingdom taken from him for disobeying God's specific commands, but now it seems a little harsh. It seems more pragmatic, which was Saul's argument in the text, to have taken the cattle and sheep for the people to eat and sacrifice, rather than slaughtering everyone and everything on sight, simply because it belonged to their enemies. Matter of fact, Amalek did not start the war, God sent Saul to wipe them out because of what the Amalekites did to Israel three centuries prior. I now feel bad for Saul, for he disobeyed only few times in the first couple years of his reign, and then God wanted to remove him immediately from the throne, but David, on the other hand, was quite liberal with many things, and even did questionable things, and God still favored him. There is a strange bias in the text.

 

[fhansen]

Is it sound thinking for a Christian to plan for something that he or she regards as good and godly yet achieving this good and godly outcome demands actions and words that are deceptive?

It is worth noting that the scriptures contain some examples where deception is used to achieve an outcome that receives commendation in later scriptures. An example is Rahab of Jericho saying (untruthfully) that the spies from Israel had departed the city.

Joshua 2:1 Then Joshua sent two spies from the camp at Acacia with orders to go and secretly explore the land of Canaan, especially the city of Jericho. When they came to the city, they went to spend the night in the house of a prostitute named Rahab. 2 The king of Jericho heard that some Israelites had come that night to spy out the country, 3 so he sent word to Rahab: "The men in your house have come to spy out the whole country! Bring them out!" 4 "Some men did come to my house," she answered, "but I don't know where they were from. They left at sundown before the city gate was closed. I didn't find out where they were going, but if you start after them quickly, you can catch them." (Now Rahab had taken the two spies up on the roof and hidden them under some stalks of flax that she had put there.)

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Just to add my two cents, or the Catholic Church's two cents:

1761 There are concrete acts that it is always wrong to choose, because their choice entails a disorder of the will, i.e., a moral evil. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2489 Charity [love] and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283

 

[RileyG]

No.

 

[disciple Clint]

Is it sound thinking for a Christian to plan for something that he or she regards as good and godly yet achieving this good and godly outcome demands actions and words that are deceptive?

It is worth noting that the scriptures contain some examples where deception is used to achieve an outcome that receives commendation in later scriptures. An example is Rahab of Jericho saying (untruthfully) that the spies from Israel had departed the city.

Joshua 2:1 Then Joshua sent two spies from the camp at Acacia with orders to go and secretly explore the land of Canaan, especially the city of Jericho. When they came to the city, they went to spend the night in the house of a prostitute named Rahab. 2 The king of Jericho heard that some Israelites had come that night to spy out the country, 3 so he sent word to Rahab: "The men in your house have come to spy out the whole country! Bring them out!" 4 "Some men did come to my house," she answered, "but I don't know where they were from. They left at sundown before the city gate was closed. I didn't find out where they were going, but if you start after them quickly, you can catch them." (Now Rahab had taken the two spies up on the roof and hidden them under some stalks of flax that she had put there.)

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Rahab was not a follower of God so to use her as a example of Godly behavior is not valid.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rahab was not a follower of God so to use her as a example of Godly behavior is not valid.

Saint James uses her in his letter.

 

[disciple Clint]

Saint James uses her in his letter.

ok, how does that change things. By the way moral theology declares that the end never justifies the means, if the means is immoral so is the end.You cannot accomplish good through evil means.

 

[Philip_B]

There are lots of untidy stories in the early part of the Old Testament. Some people feel the need to sanitise them,and others of us celebrate the untidiness, as it genuinely more in tune with the untidiness of life as we know it.

The ends do not justify the means. This is closely related to the question of the fruit of the poisen tree. Yet real life rarely conforms to tidy theories.

 

[bling]

Is it sound thinking for a Christian to plan for something that he or she regards as good and godly yet achieving this good and godly outcome demands actions and words that are deceptive?

It is worth noting that the scriptures contain some examples where deception is used to achieve an outcome that receives commendation in later scriptures. An example is Rahab of Jericho saying (untruthfully) that the spies from Israel had departed the city.

Joshua 2:1 Then Joshua sent two spies from the camp at Acacia with orders to go and secretly explore the land of Canaan, especially the city of Jericho. When they came to the city, they went to spend the night in the house of a prostitute named Rahab. 2 The king of Jericho heard that some Israelites had come that night to spy out the country, 3 so he sent word to Rahab: "The men in your house have come to spy out the whole country! Bring them out!" 4 "Some men did come to my house," she answered, "but I don't know where they were from. They left at sundown before the city gate was closed. I didn't find out where they were going, but if you start after them quickly, you can catch them." (Now Rahab had taken the two spies up on the roof and hidden them under some stalks of flax that she had put there.)
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Rahab at this time was not a Christian or a Jew and did not know the Law. She did not know God's full power, so she would not be able to trust Him.
I see what you are saying, but this does not directly apply to us today.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

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Rahab at this time was not a Christian or a Jew and did not know the Law. She did not know God's full power, so she would not be able to trust Him.
I see what you are saying, but this does not directly apply to us today.

Interesting.

Yet James writes

James 2:25 Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way?​