Do some people take it too far? Eucharist

[BNR32FAN]

There is this.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

This only strengthens my point. Jesus couldn’t have been speaking literally if we know that some will receive the Eucharist but they won’t receive eternal life. If He was speaking literally then everyone who receives the Eucharist would have to receive eternal life because that’s literally what He said.

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Judas ate the Eucharist but the problem was he didn’t believe. Eating Christ’s flesh and drinking His blood is about receiving Him into you. Consuming Him and His words so that He abides in you and becomes a part of you. Judas didn’t have any of that. That’s why he was condemned.

 

[childeye 2]

This only strengthens my point. Jesus couldn’t have been speaking literally if we know that some will receive the Eucharist but they won’t receive eternal life. If He was speaking literally then everyone who receives the Eucharist would have to receive eternal life because that’s literally what He said.

I agree. But what if Jesus is speaking literally, but it's spiritually understood? So in other words it's not cannibalism, but spiritual food. He said to do this in memory of me. If we partake unworthily we profane his sacrifice for us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What if Jesus is speaking literally, but it's spiritually understood? So in other words it's not cannibalism, but spiritual food?

I haven’t said anything about cannibalism. His words are spiritual food.

“Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

That’s what I’m saying is that it’s not about receiving the Eucharist it’s about Christ dwelling within us. He made the same analogy to the Samaritan woman about water that He did about His flesh and blood in John 6.

“Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4:13-14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is the same message using a different analogy.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I agree. But what if Jesus is speaking literally, but it's spiritually understood? So in other words it's not cannibalism, but spiritual food?

This is one of the Lutheran confessional statements:

21. Hence we hereby utterly [reject and] condemn the Capernaitic eating of the body of Christ, as though [we taught that] His flesh were rent with the teeth, and digested like other food, which the Sacramentarians, against the testimony of their conscience, after all our frequent protests, willfully force upon us, and in this way make our doctrine odious to their hearers; and on the other hand, we maintain and believe, according to the simple words of the testament of Christ, the true, yet supernatural eating of the body of Christ, as also the drinking of his blood, which human senses and reason do not comprehend, but as in all other articles of faith our reason is brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and this mystery is not apprehended otherwise than by faith alone, and revealed in the Word alone.” (Formula of Concord, Epitome, Negative Theses)

 

[renniks]

How can this statement be meant literally if Judas received the Eucharist and will not live forever? I don’t see how this could be possible.

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes, think of the millions who have taken communion then walked away from the faith. This verse is actually about partaking of Christ through faith.

 

[childeye 2]

I haven’t said anything about cannibalism. His words are spiritual food.

“Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

That’s what I’m saying is that it’s not about receiving the Eucharist it’s about Christ dwelling within us. He made the same analogy to the Samaritan woman about water that He did about His flesh and blood in John 6.

“Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4:13-14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is the same message using a different analogy.

I get your point. It's like this:
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
John 6:35-36
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

 

[childeye 2]

This is one of the Lutheran confessional statements:

21. Hence we hereby utterly [reject and] condemn the Capernaitic eating of the body of Christ, as though [we taught that] His flesh were rent with the teeth, and digested like other food, which the Sacramentarians, against the testimony of their conscience, after all our frequent protests, willfully force upon us, and in this way make our doctrine odious to their hearers; and on the other hand, we maintain and believe, according to the simple words of the testament of Christ, the true, yet supernatural eating of the body of Christ, as also the drinking of his blood, which human senses and reason do not comprehend, but as in all other articles of faith our reason is brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and this mystery is not apprehended otherwise than by faith alone, and revealed in the Word alone.” (Formula of Concord, Epitome, Negative Theses)

Thank you, I appreciated the post. This confession describes a mystery that is not understood. But for what it's worth, my personal take, and what I mean when I say "spiritually understood", is that it's His Love that is seen on the cross suffering and dying in the flesh so that we may be forgiven and forgive, and escape death. And this unprecedented act of Love is consumed as the sustenance for our souls in the knowledge of God. Hence we literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, but it is spiritually understood as spiritual food, or food for the soul.

 

[childeye 2]

His words are spiritual food.

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus is the Word made flesh, he is the bread that comes down from heaven that gives Eternal Life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus is the Word made flesh, he is the bread that comes down from heaven that gives Eternal Life.

My favorite passage brother.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Thank you, I appreciated the post. This confession describes a mystery that is not understood. But for what it's worth, my personal take, and what I mean when I say "spiritually understood", is that it's His Love that is seen on the cross suffering and dying in the flesh so that we may be forgiven and forgive, and escape death. And this unprecedented act of Love is consumed as the sustenance for our souls in the knowledge of God. Hence we literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, but it is spiritually understood as spiritual food, or food for the soul.

One thing from the RC, EO, OO, Lutheran and similar positions, is that because we are made of matter, God, in His compassion, has given us various material means of grace for our benefit. For the Jews, this was circumcision, the passover in blood and the bronze snake provided healing. For Christians, this maps over to baptism, communion, and other sacraments, which have a material piece. Even in the Orthodox wedding service, the bride and groom wear crowns, not just of royalty or victory, but of martyrdom as we become martyrs to each other. We subjugate our own will to the will of our spouse.

 

[childeye 2]

One thing from the RC, EO, OO, Lutheran and similar positions, is that because we are made of matter, God, in His compassion, has given us various material means of grace for our benefit. For the Jews, this was circumcision, the passover in blood and the bronze snake provided healing. For Christians, this maps over to baptism, communion, and other sacraments, which have a material piece. Even in the Orthodox wedding service, the bride and groom wear crowns, not just of royalty or victory, but of martyrdom as we become martyrs to each other. We subjugate our own will to the will of our spouse.

So then as pertains to the sacrament of marriage, love dies for one another, and yet grows and never dies. I conclude that our language struggles to adequately describe eternal things using temporal terms.

Even so, we must do our best to communicate and understand others. I have considered that there is a benefit that is manifested in our material bodies as a result of the Eucharist. Do you believe that there is?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Even so, we must do our best to communicate and understand others. I have considered that there is a benefit that is manifested in our material bodies as a result of the Eucharist. Do you believe that there is?

Yes, as our souls and bodies are connected. In the pre-Communion prayers we say, "Master Who loves mankind, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these Holy Gifts be
to my judgment because I am unworthy, but rather for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body and the pledge of the life and Kingdom to come. It is good for me to cleave unto God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation."

 

[Not David]

Literally?
Then if it's wine, it's not literally blood. If it's not literally blood, you can not claim the passage is literal.

"If God is spirit, then how is He a man" level kind of argument

 

[childeye 2]

Yes, as our souls and bodies are connected. In the pre-Communion prayers we say, "Master Who loves mankind, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these Holy Gifts be
to my judgment because I am unworthy, but rather for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body and the pledge of the life and Kingdom to come. It is good for me to cleave unto God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation."

Thank you for your response. If I may follow up in seeking a deeper understanding. Could all of these precious and Holy Gifts you are referencing for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body, be obtainable through the Holy Spirit apart from participating in the communion and the Eucharist?

 

[renniks]

"If God is spirit, then how is He a man" level kind of argument

So you are appealing to mystery?
Jesus didn't say it's a spirit body. He said " This is my body."
Either it's symbolic or it's literally his body. I don't see any other options.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Thank you for your response. If I may follow up in seeking a deeper understanding. Could all of these precious and Holy Gifts you are referencing for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body, be obtainable through the Holy Spirit apart from participating in the communion and the Eucharist?

The problem that I have with that is that it turns our life simply into a "spiritual" life, which I find borderline gnosticism. We've got enough bad theology around where we become angels when we die or that God doesnt care about our material needs as long as we have Gee-zus. As the Nicene Creed states, "I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come". Our bodies get resurrected at the end, not in some angelic non-corporeal form, but in a glorified body. What that means, I don't know, but without the flaws of my eyesight, or my joints, and hopefully with a nice six pack

 

[childeye 2]

The problem that I have with that is that it turns our life simply into a "spiritual" life, which I find borderline gnosticism. We've got enough bad theology around where we become angels when we die or that God doesnt care about our material needs as long as we have Gee-zus. As the Nicene Creed states, "I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come". Our bodies get resurrected at the end, not in some angelic non-corporeal form, but in a glorified body. What that means, I don't know, but without the flaws of my eyesight, or my joints, and hopefully with a nice six pack

Sometimes I wonder if unlike us, the angels have these bodies that don't feel discomfort and never wear out. Nor do they know pleasure and comfort for that matter, only in that it's always been there. And that in their innocence/ignorance of what a gift they have, which could only be appreciated from mankind's point of view, they became envious of mankind and wished they could feel something. It's not dissimilar to how paradise is taken for granted when inevitably people become vain and unthankful to God in their station. Does that sound like Gnosticism or is it The Holy Spirit and why am I asking you anyway? So I'll just say I don't think a nice six pack is too much to hope for.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Sometimes I wonder if unlike us, the angels have these bodies that don't feel discomfort and never wear out. Nor do they know pleasure and comfort for that matter, only in that it's always been there. And that in their innocence/ignorance of what a gift they have, which could only be appreciated from mankind's point of view, they became envious of mankind and wish they could feel something.

We have a number of hymns that are taken from the angelic point of view. One verse from a hymn of Lamentations on the evening of Good Friday, as the icon of Christ is carried about the church reads:

Let Your compassions come to me, and I shall live; for Your law is my meditation.
Seeing You, O Lord, lying dead and lifeless in the earth below,
yet not separated from the Father on high
caused the Seraphim to quake in awe and fear.

 

[Not David]

So you are appealing to mystery?
Jesus didn't say it's a spirit body. He said " This is my body."
Either it's symbolic or it's literally his body. I don't see any other options.

I already explained how it is, if you want to limit God that's on you

 

[bbbbbbb]

I already explained how it is, if you want to limit God that's on you

I agree. Far be it from me to limit God to being a piece of bread and a sip of wine inside an ornate building.