Do some people take it too far? Eucharist

JohnB445

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I believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood of Christ. I don't see any shame in it. Some will go as far to say we are bringing shame to God for thinking it is his body and blood.

Jesus did not say it was symbolic. Are they adding to the word?
 

HTacianas

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I believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood of Christ. I don't see any shame in it. Some will go as far to say we are bringing shame to God for thinking it is his body and blood.

Jesus did not say it was symbolic. Are they adding to the word?

All of the original apostolic Churches, without exception, share your beliefs about the Eucharist, and have held that belief since the beginning. Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood". St. Paul specifically identifies the Eucharist as "the Lord's body".

If it is not the body and blood of Christ when did it cease to be?
 
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JohnB445

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All of the original apostolic Churches, without exception, share your beliefs about the Eucharist, and have held that belief since the beginning. Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood". St. Paul specifically identifies the Eucharist as "the Lord's body".

If it is not the body and blood of Christ when did it cease to be?

I believe his message is clear. If he wanted us to believe it was symbolic I believe he would of told us so.
 
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HTacianas

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I believe his message is clear. If he wanted us to believe it was symbolic I believe he would of told us so.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians:

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1Co 11:25 - After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Notice he says "remembrance", i.e., a memorial. A memorial in the old testament is a sacrifice for sin:

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Exo 30:16 - ... that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

Lev 2:2 ...priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD

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Lev 2:9 - And the priest shall take from the meat offering a memorial thereof, and shall burn it upon the altar: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Leviticus is filled with "memorials" for sacrifices.
 
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SkyWriting

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I believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood of Christ. I don't see any shame in it. Some will go as far to say we are bringing shame to God for thinking it is his body and blood.Jesus did not say it was symbolic. Are they adding to the word?

If you say that Jesus was full of fruit juice, no problem.

26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the[c] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
 
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TuxAme

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Once I got deep in Scripture (and read a few other books, particularly Brant Pitre's Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist), the Eucharist came to life for me. The concept of the Real Presence is much easier to grasp when you understand the Passover, the Manna and the Exodus (among other things).
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus has used symbols without directly saying it was symbolic; for example > where He says to take His "yoke" upon us and learn from Him > Matthew 11:28-30.

Also, our Apostle Paul says we in Christ are "members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones", in Ephesians 5:30. And Paul does not say this is symbolic; so, if you want to make a literal interpretation out of this > because our flesh is Jesus Christ's flesh and Jesus in John chapter six says we need to eat His flesh in order to have life, ones could claim that you can have everlasting life by eating our flesh. After all, there is no symbolism claimed, here in Ephesians 5:30.

So, I do not think God wants cannibalism, of course; but I think we can see how there are items not spelled out, one way or another, in the Bible, and people use what they find to be common sense or revealed interpretation in order to handle certain scriptures.

It is possible, then, that Catholic authorities have not agreed to consider the Eucharist to be Christ's body, because of literal interpretation of the Bible, but because they claim the Holy Spirit has revealed this to be the correct application. But there are Catholic apologists who claim it is obviously the only possible literary interpretation. But, to my knowledge, there are scholars who understand that one can communicate with symbolism and not have to make it clear that he or she is doing this. For another example, Paul says that whoever is "joined" to Jesus is "one spirit with Him", in 1 Corinthians 6:17; "joined", according to one Greek authority, can mean "glued". But no effort is made to make it clear if this word is meant to be physical in meaning or if it is spiritually intended.

I can see how ones could be using super-glue to attach a Eucharist to their bodies, if they got into demanding literal applications whenever the Bible does not make a clear distinction about what is symbolic and what isn't.

But we ourselves are the body of Christ, and we all are able to minister God's own grace . . . according to what I see our Apostle Peter saying in 1 Peter 4:9-10. We each have the presence of Jesus Himself in us, growing in us > Galatians 4:19. So, Jesus lives in us, and Jesus is "life-giving" (1 Corinthians 15:45), in us making us giving of the grace of God's own love and the life of God's love ministered to one another.

But there are people claiming that Jesus is living in metal housings in church buildings. But Paul says we ourselves are His body, of His flesh and of His bones; and Paul also says we can minister God's own grace > Ephesians 4:29 . . . this with Ephesians 4:11-16.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Jesus has used symbols without directly saying it was symbolic; for example > where He says to take His "yoke" upon us and learn from Him > Matthew 11:28-30.
That's a metaphor. And it's kind of a flimsy argument anyway because nobody walked away from His ministry over that metaphor.

If we're to believe that Our Lord was speaking in figurative, symbolic, metaphorical, or whatever other terms when He said in St. John 6 that the faithful must eat His flesh and drink His blood or else they do not have eternal life, we're left struggling to explain why He didn't lift a finger to talk anybody out of their literal interpretation of His remarks.

Those who interpret His words literally have no problem with this passage. But those determined to find a non-literal interpretation have a bit higher a mountain to climb in explaining why He didn't simply clarify His meaning.
 
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HTacianas

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Jesus has used symbols without directly saying it was symbolic; for example > where He says to take His "yoke" upon us and learn from Him > Matthew 11:28-30.

Also, our Apostle Paul says we in Christ are "members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones", in Ephesians 5:30. And Paul does not say this is symbolic; so, if you want to make a literal interpretation out of this > because our flesh is Jesus Christ's flesh and Jesus in John chapter six says we need to eat His flesh in order to have life, ones could claim that you can have everlasting life by eating our flesh. After all, there is no symbolism claimed, here in Ephesians 5:30.

So, I do not think God wants cannibalism, of course; but I think we can see how there are items not spelled out, one way or another, in the Bible, and people use what they find to be common sense or revealed interpretation in order to handle certain scriptures.

It is possible, then, that Catholic authorities have not agreed to consider the Eucharist to be Christ's body, because of literal interpretation of the Bible, but because they claim the Holy Spirit has revealed this to be the correct application. But there are Catholic apologists who claim it is obviously the only possible literary interpretation. But, to my knowledge, there are scholars who understand that one can communicate with symbolism and not have to make it clear that he or she is doing this. For another example, Paul says that whoever is "joined" to Jesus is "one spirit with Him", in 1 Corinthians 6:17; "joined", according to one Greek authority, can mean "glued". But no effort is made to make it clear if this word is meant to be physical in meaning or if it is spiritually intended.

I can see how ones could be using super-glue to attach a Eucharist to their bodies, if they got into demanding literal applications whenever the Bible does not make a clear distinction about what is symbolic and what isn't.

But we ourselves are the body of Christ, and we all are able to minister God's own grace . . . according to what I see our Apostle Peter saying in 1 Peter 4:9-10. We each have the presence of Jesus Himself in us, growing in us > Galatians 4:19. So, Jesus lives in us, and Jesus is "life-giving" (1 Corinthians 15:45), in us making us giving of the grace of God's own love and the life of God's love ministered to one another.

But there are people claiming that Jesus is living in metal housings in church buildings. But Paul says we ourselves are His body, of His flesh and of His bones; and Paul also says we can minister God's own grace > Ephesians 4:29 . . . this with Ephesians 4:11-16.

The Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ is not an interpretation of scripture. No one found a bible one day and made a decision about it. It was taught by the apostles before the new testament was written.
 
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prodromos

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So, I do not think God wants cannibalism, of course
Cannibalism necessarily harms the one being eaten. Christ suffers no loss by giving us His flesh. Cannibalism involves consuming the dead flesh of the one being eaten. Christ gives us His living flesh.
Ergo, it isn't cannibalism.
 
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Danthemailman

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Jesus is the Bread of Life. Just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35 - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." As He was accustomed, Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

The literal interpretation literally eating flesh and literally drinking blood is absurd. By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving and enjoying eternal life. Eating and drinking is not literally with the mouth and the digestive organs of our bodies here, but the reception of God’s grace by believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths both in metaphoric and plain language below:

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" because the result is the same, eternal life. :)

John 6 does not afford any support to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is an emphatic statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary. :oldthumbsup:
 
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prodromos

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When the Lord ate the passover meal with His disciples, was He eating Himself?
He broke the bread and gave it to His disciples. He didn't eat the bread Himself.
 
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prodromos

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Jesus used symbolism and parables a lot.
When He used a parable, He explained it to His disciples.
He dos not explain a symbolic meaning of John 6 to His disciples but reinforces the literal understanding, and people stop following Him as a result.
 
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prodromos

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Jesus is the Bread of Life. Just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35 - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." As He was accustomed, Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
You interpret this as Jesus saying that His flesh profits nothing?
Well that whole "incarnation" thing was a waste of time then, wasn't it!
 
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com7fy8

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Those who interpret His words literally have no problem with this passage. But those determined to find a non-literal interpretation have a bit higher a mountain to climb in explaining why He didn't simply clarify His meaning.

The Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ is not an interpretation of scripture. No one found a bible one day and made a decision about it. It was taught by the apostles before the new testament was written.
Like I offered, it is possible that there are Catholic apologists who incorrectly assume that the Eucharist is based on official interpretation of scripture; but I have the impression, as HTacianas seems to be saying, that officially the Catholic Church holds that the Eucharist is based on apostolic revelation not dependent on literal or metaphoric interpretation.

Now, do I personally agree that the Eucharist is the flesh of Jesus? I have said that our Apostle Paul says we ourselves are the body of Jesus, and Peter says we minister God's own grace to one another.
 
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Dick Barton

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I believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood of Christ. I don't see any shame in it. Some will go as far to say we are bringing shame to God for thinking it is his body and blood.

Jesus did not say it was symbolic. Are they adding to the word?

It was metaphorical as Jews were forbidden to eat human flesh or drink human blood.
 
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