Do plants suffer?

[ottaia]

We may be forgetting that because something feel pain does not mean it is suffering. Suffering is a congnitive experience.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Didn't some scientists or study come out with an article some time ago declaring or suggesting that plants show what could be reaction to pain or adverse stimulus similar to other animals?

Anyway... their purpose in life is to serve my need to eat - end of story, now pass the potatoes.

 

[Blackmarch]

As others debate things like animal rights, vegan diets, the intrinsic value of non-human animals, the absurdity of saving a house pet before saving a fellow human, etc., am I the only one who observes that we are neglecting plants?

I only have minimal education in biology, so I can't win an argument about physiology or anything like that. Some people will predictably say that something about plant physiology--something like, say, the lack of a nervous system--means that plants don't have feelings and that that is the end of the discussion. But is it really that simple?

Feelings or no feelings, nervous system or no nervous system, a house plant that is dying from dehydration has the appearance of suffering.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't look at the mold, fungus, etc. on a dying tree and not see suffering. Maybe I am fooling myself and in reality the tree doesn't know one way or the other what is happening to it. But where is it written that there has to be consciousness for there to be suffering?


Matthew 21:18-20

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. 20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

Um no... but one does hope you don't go to the extremes some people do over plants and/or animals. we do have a responsibility to take care of them and use them wisely both for aesthetics and things that are needed.
Another thought i;s has there been a way developed to find out if plants have a "consciousness"? There are cases certainly where they seem to react to situations as if they were suffering.

 

[FSTDT]

I only have minimal education in biology, so I can't win an argument about physiology or anything like that. Some people will predictably say that something about plant physiology--something like, say, the lack of a nervous system--means that plants don't have feelings and that that is the end of the discussion. But is it really that simple?

Probably.

If that doesnt float your boat, consider the reason why people feel pain in the first place: so that they can move away from the source of the pain. What use is it to a plant to feel pain during a forest fire if its anchored into the ground?

Didn't some scientists or study come out with an article some time ago declaring or suggesting that plants show what could be reaction to pain or adverse stimulus similar to other animals?

Actually there are a couple of hoaxed articles that float around the internet suggesting just that thing. You might be referring to this one:

DALLAS--Research scientists at Baylor Medical Center have proven that plants, including vegetables, feel pain when subjected to trauma such as being yanked out of the ground, peeled, cooked, and eaten. "Veggies and plants initiate a massive hormone and chemical barrage internally when they suffer any kind of injury," says Professor Barry Lindzer. "This response is akin to the nerve response and endorphin release when an animal is injured. We cannot ignore the similarities."

That one is a hoax, and I think its intended as satire. See petv.org for one incarnation of the story, see this incarnation, and this "serious" incarnation.

Plants also respond to light and sound, but we dont take this to mean that they can see or hear.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

For my arguement we will need to cover another question first, then go to yours:

1)
a. What feels pain?
b. What is required to feel pain?

2) Can plants feel pain?

1)

a. What feels pain? Is it true that only sentient beings can feel pain? A dog can feel pain, we know this because if we hurt him he will yelp. However, a dog is not sentient. Non-sentient beings can feel pain.

b. What is required to feel pain? A dog has a nervous system. They can transmit electral impulses from the point in question to the brain. This transmits a feeling of pain to the point in question. Can a protozoa feel pain? It fulfills two important points for our arguement. It is alive, and it is non-sentient. We know that it doesn't have a nervous system, but we do know it can move the flagellum on it's surface to propel itself through the world around it. Does this mean that it has another system that transmits electrical impulses? Can the impulses transmit a feeling of pain to a said point? Only to certain points? Or is there another, entirely different system. One that uses wikizmos (a madeup word for purposes of this arguement) to transmit commands to wiggle to flagellum?

2) We know many things about plants, but I will use three known facts for this arguement. They do not have a CNS like a human or a dog. They do respond to light. They do respond to sound. Does this mean that if the protozoa has a subistitute CNS, the plant may also have one? What does it transmit?

I think plants do not feel pain, though they certainly appear to do so. We will not truly know until we answer the above questions.

 

[FSTDT]

Non-sentient beings can feel pain.

Isnt that a contradiction in the basic meaning of sentience (which means the ability to feel and percieve)?

What is required to feel pain?

See Guidelines for recognition and assement of animal pain.
See also Can animals feel pain.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Isnt that a contradiction in the basic meaning of sentience (which means the ability to feel and percieve)?


See Guidelines for recognition and assement of animal pain.
See also Can animals feel pain.

Lo, I know these things. I am laying them out in an idiot-proof format for people to think throught though.

 

[£amb]

Do plants suffer?

In my house they do. I never had a plant live for more than 3 months.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

In my house they do.

Lol

 

[Ledifni]

As others debate things like animal rights, vegan diets, the intrinsic value of non-human animals, the absurdity of saving a house pet before saving a fellow human, etc., am I the only one who observes that we are neglecting plants?

I only have minimal education in biology, so I can't win an argument about physiology or anything like that. Some people will predictably say that something about plant physiology--something like, say, the lack of a nervous system--means that plants don't have feelings and that that is the end of the discussion. But is it really that simple?

Feelings or no feelings, nervous system or no nervous system, a house plant that is dying from dehydration has the appearance of suffering.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't look at the mold, fungus, etc. on a dying tree and not see suffering. Maybe I am fooling myself and in reality the tree doesn't know one way or the other what is happening to it. But where is it written that there has to be consciousness for there to be suffering?

Must something be "written" to be true? Prophecy is not the way we determine truth.

In any case, if you want to see some practical proof that you are wrong, go watch a surgery. Why does the patient not suffer (and if you ask the patient afterwards, he'll tell you that he didn't suffer anything while he was in surgery)? Because he is not conscious. Suffering is a state of a conscious mind, not an objective quality of an object.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

Must something be "written" to be true? Prophecy is not the way we determine truth.

The phrase "Where is it written?" is a figure of speech. It doesn't literally mean that something has to be written, prophesized or whatever to be true.

In any case, if you want to see some practical proof that you are wrong, go watch a surgery. Why does the patient not suffer (and if you ask the patient afterwards, he'll tell you that he didn't suffer anything while he was in surgery)? Because he is not conscious. Suffering is a state of a conscious mind, not an objective quality of an object.

I'm not a Psychology PhD or a Philosophy PhD, but I think that the assertion that there has to be consciousness for there to be suffering is debatable. People suffer subconsciously and then years later when they are made conscious of it they go through all kinds of anger and other emotions to heal and adjust.

And I think there is a difference between pain and suffering. A lot of people don't like the experience of getting an injection through a hypodermic needle. But while the experience may cause temporary pain and discomfort, it does not cause most people to suffer. For some people, however, it may be a traumatic experience and cause them to suffer from anxiety.

Basically, I would say that suffering is pain that the person experiencing the pain and the people caring for him cannot control or manage. Sometimes when a person can't cope that overwhelming pain gets repressed into the subconscious. Hence, the person suffers subconsciously. That pain may be coped with subconsciously; like when a man who was physically and emotionally abused as a child takes his pain out on his wife and children, not knowing that that is what he is doing. Consequently, people other than the person harboring the pain consciously directly suffer from it, while the person only suffers indirectly. Having a strained marriage is an example of the indirect suffering.

Do plants experience pain that they cannot control or manage?

 

[psychedelicist]

We have evolved in such a way that we need to feed off other life forms to survive. Due to evolution, we are designed to be able to eat meat or plants. So why not? I'm not condoning the bad conditions that the animals that will eventually be my dinner have to live in, but do you really think a lion or a cow really cares that his food might suffer? Life feeds on life is an unpleasant law of survival, bu it is a law nonetheless. Unless one of you has developed a way to photosynthesize your food, eat the salad and be thankful for it.