Do plants suffer?

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

As others debate things like animal rights, vegan diets, the intrinsic value of non-human animals, the absurdity of saving a house pet before saving a fellow human, etc., am I the only one who observes that we are neglecting plants?

I only have minimal education in biology, so I can't win an argument about physiology or anything like that. Some people will predictably say that something about plant physiology--something like, say, the lack of a nervous system--means that plants don't have feelings and that that is the end of the discussion. But is it really that simple?

Feelings or no feelings, nervous system or no nervous system, a house plant that is dying from dehydration has the appearance of suffering.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't look at the mold, fungus, etc. on a dying tree and not see suffering. Maybe I am fooling myself and in reality the tree doesn't know one way or the other what is happening to it. But where is it written that there has to be consciousness for there to be suffering?


Matthew 21:18-20

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. 20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

 

[skinner]

As others debate things like animal rights, vegan diets, the intrinsic value of non-human animals, the absurdity of saving a house pet before saving a fellow human, etc., am I the only one who observes that we are neglecting plants?

Sigh...like charlie brown would say..."I can't stand it. I just can't stand it!

 

[talitha]

yeah, in the interest of not causing any suffering, let's all just eat sand.......

pa-lease, people......

tal

 

[benjdm]

I think it is entirely possible that plants suffer. I put my survival ahead of their suffering.

 

[MarinoMan]

yeah, in the interest of not causing any suffering, let's all just eat sand.......

pa-lease, people......

tal

Or paste...paste is always good. That and a diet heavy in suger.

 

[talitha]

But sugar is made from decapitating poor sugarcane plants! Or from refining juice tortuously squeezed out of beets or dates!

lol
tal

 

[MarinoMan]

But sugar is made from decapitating poor sugarcane plants! Or from refining juice tortuously squeezed out of beets or dates!

lol
tal

Well no one likes those sugarcane plants anyway...I mean...look at them...they're so...so..so tall. Everyone knows that they all have superiority complexs anyway.

 

[ottaia]

As others debate things like animal rights, vegan diets, the intrinsic value of non-human animals, the absurdity of saving a house pet before saving a fellow human, etc., am I the only one who observes that we are neglecting plants?

This is why I do not eat live culture yogurt. I can just imagine those little yogs screaming all the way down my throat.

 

[talitha]

Probably why you don't eat sushi either, right, ottaia?

tal

 

[psychedelicist]

Even if they do suffer, our eating plants is no different from a fox eating a rabbit or cow eating grass. Life feeds on life, and we were lucky enough to be born at the top of the food chain.

 

[""]

My salad cries whenever I chew it, but to no avail. It only makes me chew faster and harder. I'm bad. I'm really bad.

 

[benjdm]

Hilarious song - "Carrot Juice is Murder" by the Arrogant worms

http://www.thedoctordementoshow.com/song_details.php?SongID=524

Listen up brothers and sisters,
Come hear my desperate tale.
I speak of our friends of nature
Trapped in the dirt like a jail.
Vegetables live in oppression,
Served on our tables each night.
This killing of veggies is madness,
I say we take up the fight.
Salads are only for murderers,
Coleslaw's a fascist regime.
Don't think that they don't have feelings
Just 'cause a radish can't scream.
CHORUS:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables, (Scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled. (Having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy. (Burning off calories)
How do you think that feels? (Bet it hurts really bad.)
Carrot juice constitutes murder, (And that's a real crime.)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves. (Let my vegetables go.)
It's time to stop all this gardening. (It's dirty as hell.)
Let's call a spade a spade. (...is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a...)
I saw a man eating celery,
So I beat him black and blue.
If he ever touches a sprout again,
I'll bite him clean in two.
I'm a political prisoner,
Trapped in a windowless cage,
'Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips
By killing five men in a rage.
I told the judge when he sentenced me,
"This is my finest hour!
I'd kill those farmers again
Just to save one more cauliflower."
CHORUS
How low as people do we dare to stoop?
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup!
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes,
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!
Wo, wo, wo...
[LIVE VERSION ONLY: No, spare the spud, eat a cow instead!]
I've heard the screams of the vegetables, (Scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled. (Fates in the stir fry are sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy. (You fat gourmet scum)
How do you think that feels? (Leave them out in the fields.)
Carrot juice constitutes murder, (V-8's genocide.)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves. (Yes, your compost's a grave.)
It's time to stop all this gardening. (Take up macrame.)
Let's call a spade a spade. (...is a spade, is a spade, is a spade...)
Is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

yeah, in the interest of not causing any suffering, let's all just eat sand.......



pa-lease, people......



tal

Or paste...paste is always good. That and a diet heavy in suger.

But sugar is made from decapitating poor sugarcane plants! Or from refining juice tortuously squeezed out of beets or dates!



lol

tal

Well no one likes those sugarcane plants anyway...I mean...look at them...they're so...so..so tall. Everyone knows that they all have superiority complexs anyway.

This is why I do not eat live culture yogurt. I can just imagine those little yogs screaming all the way down my throat.

Probably why you don't eat sushi either, right, ottaia?


tal

My salad cries whenever I chew it, but to no avail. It only makes me chew faster and harder. I'm bad. I'm really bad.

Hilarious song - "Carrot Juice is Murder" by the Arrogant worms


http://www.thedoctordementoshow.com/song_details.php?SongID=524



Listen up brothers and sisters,

Come hear my desperate tale.

I speak of our friends of nature

Trapped in the dirt like a jail.

Vegetables live in oppression,

Served on our tables each night.

This killing of veggies is madness,

I say we take up the fight.

Salads are only for murderers,

Coleslaw's a fascist regime.

Don't think that they don't have feelings

Just 'cause a radish can't scream.

CHORUS:

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, (Scream, scream, scream)

Watching their skins being peeled. (Having their insides revealed)

Grated and steamed with no mercy. (Burning off calories)

How do you think that feels? (Bet it hurts really bad.)

Carrot juice constitutes murder, (And that's a real crime.)

Greenhouses prisons for slaves. (Let my vegetables go.)

It's time to stop all this gardening. (It's dirty as hell.)

Let's call a spade a spade. (...is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a...)

I saw a man eating celery,

So I beat him black and blue.

If he ever touches a sprout again,

I'll bite him clean in two.

I'm a political prisoner,

Trapped in a windowless cage,

'Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips

By killing five men in a rage.

I told the judge when he sentenced me,

"This is my finest hour!

I'd kill those farmers again

Just to save one more cauliflower."

CHORUS

How low as people do we dare to stoop?

Making young broccolis bleed in the soup!

Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes,

Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

Wo, wo, wo...

[LIVE VERSION ONLY: No, spare the spud, eat a cow instead!]

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, (Scream, scream, scream)

Watching their skins being peeled. (Fates in the stir fry are sealed)

Grated and steamed with no mercy. (You fat gourmet scum)

How do you think that feels? (Leave them out in the fields.)

Carrot juice constitutes murder, (V-8's genocide.)

Greenhouses prisons for slaves. (Yes, your compost's a grave.)

It's time to stop all this gardening. (Take up macrame.)

Let's call a spade a spade. (...is a spade, is a spade, is a spade...)

Is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.

What does any of that have to do with my question?

Notice that I used a dehyradated house plant and a tree dying from mold and fungus as imagery. Notice that I said nothing about any direct human action such as chewing, cutting with a chainsaw, etc.

Now, if some people could come back to Earth from their tangents I still need an answer to a question: Do plants suffer?

If plants do suffer, then why are there entire political organizations dedicated to preventing the unneeded suffering of animals but no such organizations as far as I can tell concerned with the suffering of plants? Could it be because plants aren't cuddly and adorable to people like animals are? Could it be because plants don't do things like smell bombs in luggage, alert us that there's an intruder on the property and help guide the visually impaired?

Is it not possible to do some constructive philosophical inquiry? This is a philosophy forum is it not? Or am I mistaken and this forum is really about taking cheap shots at people whose ideas one does not like or one has a low opinion of?

Some of us want to mature emotionally, socially, intellectually and spiritually. Apparently most people aren't going to encourage that process or offer any help. Apparently most people instead like to use the process to inject their venom. Is it any wonder that most people never realize their full potential?

 

[psychedelicist]

Hilarious song - "Carrot Juice is Murder" by the Arrogant worms

http://www.thedoctordementoshow.com/song_details.php?SongID=524

Listen up brothers and sisters,
Come hear my desperate tale.
I speak of our friends of nature
Trapped in the dirt like a jail.
Vegetables live in oppression,
Served on our tables each night.
This killing of veggies is madness,
I say we take up the fight.
Salads are only for murderers,
Coleslaw's a fascist regime.
Don't think that they don't have feelings
Just 'cause a radish can't scream.
CHORUS:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables, (Scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled. (Having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy. (Burning off calories)
How do you think that feels? (Bet it hurts really bad.)
Carrot juice constitutes murder, (And that's a real crime.)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves. (Let my vegetables go.)
It's time to stop all this gardening. (It's dirty as hell.)
Let's call a spade a spade. (...is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a...)
I saw a man eating celery,
So I beat him black and blue.
If he ever touches a sprout again,
I'll bite him clean in two.
I'm a political prisoner,
Trapped in a windowless cage,
'Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips
By killing five men in a rage.
I told the judge when he sentenced me,
"This is my finest hour!
I'd kill those farmers again
Just to save one more cauliflower."
CHORUS
How low as people do we dare to stoop?
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup!
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes,
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!
Wo, wo, wo...
[LIVE VERSION ONLY: No, spare the spud, eat a cow instead!]
I've heard the screams of the vegetables, (Scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled. (Fates in the stir fry are sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy. (You fat gourmet scum)
How do you think that feels? (Leave them out in the fields.)
Carrot juice constitutes murder, (V-8's genocide.)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves. (Yes, your compost's a grave.)
It's time to stop all this gardening. (Take up macrame.)
Let's call a spade a spade. (...is a spade, is a spade, is a spade...)
Is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.

Reminds me of a Tool song called Disgustipated.

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place
of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still, until we moved
through the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me unto a
vast farmland of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of
impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices
full of fear and terror possessed me then. And I begged, 'Angel of the
lord, what are these tortured screams?' And the angel said unto me,
'These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see,
Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the
holocaust!' And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the
tears of one million terrified brothers, and roared, 'Hear me now! I
have seen the light! They have a consciousness! They have a life! They
have a soul! Damn you, let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!
Can I get an Amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus."

 

[PlumTea]

Is it not possible to do some constructive philosophical inquiry? This is a philosophy forum is it not? Or am I mistaken and this forum is really about taking cheap shots at people whose ideas one does not like or one has a low opinion of?

I would take the previous answers to mean that they (the posters) do not believe plants suffer.

Neither do I. Withering and suffering are not the same thing. Suffering suggests a level of consciousness or at least some nerves. Plants have neither. I have never seen anything in the bible or in science to suggest otherwise.

 

[benjdm]

I have seen some things that suggest plants suffer, a long time ago. If I remember correctly it was based on chemical levels. I think it is possible that they suffer, as I stated earlier. Popular support for doing anything about them suffering, I think, is lacking because:
A) They are so different from us, and our sympathy for others is generally proportional to how similar they are to us
B) It is impossible to take the same step vegetarians take with regard to eating animals and apply it to plants without starving to death.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

I have seen some things that suggest plants suffer, a long time ago. If I remember correctly it was based on chemical levels. I think it is possible that they suffer, as I stated earlier. Popular support for doing anything about them suffering, I think, is lacking because:
A) They are so different from us, and our sympathy for others is generally proportional to how similar they are to us
B) It is impossible to take the same step vegetarians take with regard to eating animals and apply it to plants without starving to death.

Apparently I misconstrued your previous post. Actually, I didn't completely read the song lyrics until after I posted my reply. I then wondered if I had taken your post the wrong way. Please forgive me.

Anyway, I think that some people bond with plants. They get upset when their house plants are dying, and things like that. Therefore, sympathy for plants is not unheard of.

Botanical gardens and public arboretums are popular.

Is it possible that not enough people have kept their sense of connection with plants for anyone to be able to arouse much political activism? Urbanization has almost banished plants from a lot of people's daily lives. Yet, those people have maintained their relationship with animals by keeping house pets. It's like plants have been mostly forgotten.

I think another reason there is more activism for animals is that the problem of overpopulation of cats and dogs and the resulting interventions by government and private non-profit organizations put animals in the public's consciousness. One does not see TV commercials asking him to adopt a homeless plant, if you know what I mean. And cats, dogs and other domesticated animals suffer from human neglect, abuse and torture. We don't read about serial killers who started out torturing plants when they were teenagers, if you know what I mean.

Interesting topic.

 

[benjdm]

Apparently I misconstrued your previous post. Actually, I didn't completely read the song lyrics until after I posted my reply. I then wondered if I had taken your post the wrong way. Please forgive me.

No offense taken. My very early reply was the serious one, the song lyrics were just for fun (2 different posts).

 

[ottaia]

There is a branch of some religion (the sect is called Jaynes or something like that) that rever all life. They sweep the sidewalk ahead of them as they walk so they do not step on anything. However, again I am going from old memories, thevery devout eventually starve to death.

But I agree, they have no nervous system as we know nor brain. As far as our understanding goes, they do not suffer.

 

[BananaSlug]

I don't think plants can suffer the way we understand it, as in "feel pain," however they do show signs of stress such as wilting, dropping leaves, dying, etc. This could be argued as suffering, though they cannot feel it.

A carrot's crunch is it's death scream.