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VanillaSunflowers
Black Lives Don't Matter More Than Any Other Life
If I remember correctly this sites agreement was worded as, "I have read and agree...." It wouldn't be a lie if you checked the box to agree to those terms of service if a legal adviser or assistant read them to you. I would think the point is it was read and/or understood by you so that you then made an informed choice to agree to the terms of service.
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VanillaSunflowers
Black Lives Don't Matter More Than Any Other Life
Sure, being unaware of terms of service or any other terms in a contract can hurt people. They can hurt self because you agree to something you were not fully cognizant of. That being in contracts, (contract law), like buying a car, a house, leasing something, renting an apartment, applying for a loan or credit card, etc...And it could hurt others depending on the scope of the contracts terms.
Terms of service can afford the same risk to self or others. It depends on what the terms are that surround the services provided and that you're asked to legally agree to. Your signature is a legal instrument. The more you know the better off you are.
The trick to help keep you safe isn't really a trick at all. It's common sense if you think about it. Read every word. And if someone tries to hurry you up on a long bit of paperwork, contract, and /or they try to tell you what's in the paperwork you're trying to read but not fast enough to their liking, be warned. Because you're committing yourself to what's there if you sign at the bottom of all that text and no matter how many pages of it there are before you arrive at that signature line.
Take your time. And if they insist on hurrying you up, leave. Because that can be a very good sign that they don't respect you or what you're being asked to do in committing your signature to that legal instrument that can be used against you in court if you don't know what you're getting in to. And even if you do but if you don't know what's there and you sign under pressure you're still committed to the terms you agreed to with that signature. Claiming you were under duress and that's why you signed later on can be hard to prove. While getting up and politely leaving isn't hard at all. I've done it.
I'd rather walk away from something that doesn't feel right for the pressure exerted to get me to sign without reading, than go through the stress afterward if I signed and then found out I should have walked away when it wasn't going to be as costly as it is now after I signed and found out I screwed myself.
And don't let anyone tell you corporations aren't people. That was a decision the supreme court made years ago. Corporations are people. Which is a no brainer really because people form corporations. And guess what? They do so utilizing the terms and conditions afforded in the legalese of contract law.
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- Aug 18, 2016
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- Aug 18, 2016
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Well, I sort of "scan read" the TOS at sites. I mean, I know how to treat people the way I would like to be treated; I avoid name calling or mean, condescending remarks which I know to be unproductive. I've spent 17 years in discussion forums and I've observed and studied people; learning how to read the signs of who they are and how they think - so that I can adjust myself accordingly. Nothing surprises me in the "sandbox" and I've been alive long enough to know how to get around in one.
Having been in numerous discussion forums, I've had one experience where the person in charge of a particular "Christian" site was not keeping the TOS herself, and she banned me for being kind and attentive to the gays and atheists. She also called me a "liberal" in a public post, and a "feminist." However, I did nothing to earn this attention, other than care about people's souls and take the time to earn their trust. This was a site where feminists, atheists and gays were treated like scum by many Christians exuding self-righteous attitudes and who seemed to think that telling people they better repent or they're "going to Hell" was the best, blanket approach.
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Moxie123
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If you hire an attorney, you are paying a professional liar. An attorney's first allegiance is to the court. You are the least of his concerns.
Even if you click "I agree," the bottom line is the party claiming you did "wrong" must first have jurisdiction over you in whichever court you will be choosing. This is where private common law court of record comes in handy, because a corporation cannot sue a man. (As opposed to a "person", which most people go to court as.)
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pgp_protector
Noted strange person
- Dec 17, 2003
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Most of the times a TOS isn't even bindable.
Example
So given there's proselytizing in many post on this site, it violates laws in multiple countries that ban proselytizing, so by definition "violates any laws" proselytizing post would be a violation of the TOS for this site.
Example
So given there's proselytizing in many post on this site, it violates laws in multiple countries that ban proselytizing, so by definition "violates any laws" proselytizing post would be a violation of the TOS for this site.
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Moxie123
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The beauty about signing a hard copy wet-ink signature is that it can be "restricted" with one or more "qualifiers" such as: all rights reserved UCC 1-308, non-assumpsit, By: jane doe, agent, without prejudice, under duress, etc.
"Legalese" in an agreement is not for our benefit, but for the benefit of the one who created the agreement.
I agree that we are not to be rushed in signing a contract or agreement. Nor are we to be reprimanded for qualifying our signature. We have every right to do so. Anytime an agent or clerk challenges me on that, I ask them,"Are you giving me legal advice"? That shuts things down quickly. The agent may ask what that is I wrote under/beside my signature. I tell them "This is my legal signature." And they say "ok". Some clerks know full well what you're doing, but they like to test people to see if we know what we're doing! lol
Contracts, agreements, and form fields are loaded with presumptions. I have crossed out statements I don't agree with and presumptions about me that are not true. Since I do not use a zip code, I leave it off entirely or if the clerk is uncooperative, I can put the zip in brackets per the Four Corners Rule, meaning that whatever is in brackets does not count as being on the page.
If anyone compels me to sign anything under duress, I simply write "under duress" in the signature line. I can also write "non-assumpsit" which means "no contract". Anything signed under duress is void ab initio (void immediately). See maxims of law: contracts.
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A corporation is a dead legal fiction. In the eyes of the law, it cannot be one of the "people", which is flesh and blood.
See also Rundle v. Delaware & Raritan Canal Co., 55 U.S. 80 (1852)
Corporation: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Corporations
Artificial entities that are created by state statute, and that are treated much like individuals under the law, having legally enforceable rights, the ability to acquire debt and to pay out profits, the ability to hold and transfer property, the ability to enter into contracts, the requirement to pay taxes, and the ability to sue and be sued.
The rights and responsibilities of a corporation are independent and distinct from the people who own or invest in them. A corporation simply provides a way for individuals to run a business and to share in profits and losses.
Supreme Court rulings stand in law until overturned, which is rare. Rulings from the 1800s remain standing.
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Men and women who utilize the terms and conditions afforded in the legalese of contract law unwittingly convert themselves into a corporation by 1) entering administrative courts, 2) identifying themselves using government ID without having rebutted all presumptions on their application. (All government IDs convert man and woman to a corporation if the application is not rebutted in writing.) 3) giving jurisdiction by making a plea and answering to the legal entity name when called, 4) using a zip code.
"Legalese" in an agreement is not for our benefit, but for the benefit of the one who created the agreement.
I agree that we are not to be rushed in signing a contract or agreement. Nor are we to be reprimanded for qualifying our signature. We have every right to do so. Anytime an agent or clerk challenges me on that, I ask them,"Are you giving me legal advice"? That shuts things down quickly. The agent may ask what that is I wrote under/beside my signature. I tell them "This is my legal signature." And they say "ok". Some clerks know full well what you're doing, but they like to test people to see if we know what we're doing! lol
Contracts, agreements, and form fields are loaded with presumptions. I have crossed out statements I don't agree with and presumptions about me that are not true. Since I do not use a zip code, I leave it off entirely or if the clerk is uncooperative, I can put the zip in brackets per the Four Corners Rule, meaning that whatever is in brackets does not count as being on the page.
If anyone compels me to sign anything under duress, I simply write "under duress" in the signature line. I can also write "non-assumpsit" which means "no contract". Anything signed under duress is void ab initio (void immediately). See maxims of law: contracts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A corporation is a dead legal fiction. In the eyes of the law, it cannot be one of the "people", which is flesh and blood.
See also Rundle v. Delaware & Raritan Canal Co., 55 U.S. 80 (1852)
Corporation: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Corporations
Artificial entities that are created by state statute, and that are treated much like individuals under the law, having legally enforceable rights, the ability to acquire debt and to pay out profits, the ability to hold and transfer property, the ability to enter into contracts, the requirement to pay taxes, and the ability to sue and be sued.
The rights and responsibilities of a corporation are independent and distinct from the people who own or invest in them. A corporation simply provides a way for individuals to run a business and to share in profits and losses.
Supreme Court rulings stand in law until overturned, which is rare. Rulings from the 1800s remain standing.
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Men and women who utilize the terms and conditions afforded in the legalese of contract law unwittingly convert themselves into a corporation by 1) entering administrative courts, 2) identifying themselves using government ID without having rebutted all presumptions on their application. (All government IDs convert man and woman to a corporation if the application is not rebutted in writing.) 3) giving jurisdiction by making a plea and answering to the legal entity name when called, 4) using a zip code.
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Moxie123, what are you some professional troll? Isn't that part of the job of an attorney, to read over contracts? You shouldn't generalize and say that all attorneys are professional liars. I am just simply having them read over my contracts, I'm not having them represent me for a murder trial or something, besides, I never said I was going to hire an attorney. I said I was going to hire a legal assistant who has experience reading contracts.
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I get lost when there's is too much text in a contract, do you think it would be better for me if I hired a legal assistant who has experience reading contracts?
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VanillaSunflowers
Black Lives Don't Matter More Than Any Other Life
That I would think would be an expensive undertaking.
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Yes, it definitely is wrong - you've said "I have read" when you haven't - of course that's lying and therefore wrong.
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Well, what about all the times that you haven't read a TOS. Can you honestly say that you have read all of them? Did you read the "Terms of Service" of this website? Anyone who doesn't read the TOS of a website I would think is sinning because if I'm not mistaken, most websites require that you actually UNDERSTAND & Agree to their terms before you use their services. You are sinning because you could be potentially violating the TOS because you chose to skip it. Many people commit the act of "Copyright Infringement" online and they are not even aware of it. If they had just read the TOS, they would not have broken the rules in the first place. Now, they can get sued for using someone's work without permission. Don't use the excuse that that's common sense, because not everyone knows the laws.
For example, Music. People download music all the time not thinking that their is nothing wrong with what they are doing, but they are totally mistaken, they are STEALING MUSIC without paying (from Youtube etc). If they had only read the TOS, they would know that they are stealing music.
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Well, what about all the times that you haven't read a TOS. Can you honestly say that you have read all of them? Did you read the "Terms of Service" of this website? Anyone who doesn't read the TOS of a website I would think is sinning because if I'm not mistaken, most websites require that you actually UNDERSTAND & Agree to their terms before you use their services. You are sinning because you could be potentially violating the TOS because you chose to skip it. Many people commit the act of "Copyright Infringement" online and they are not even aware of it. If they had just read the TOS, they would not have broken the rules in the first place. Now, they can get sued for using someone's work without permission. Don't use the excuse that that's common sense, because not everyone knows the laws.
For example, Music. People download music all the time not thinking that their is nothing wrong with what they are doing, but they are totally mistaken, they are STEALING MUSIC without paying (from Youtube etc). If they had only read the TOS, they would know that they are stealing music.
.
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Well, what about all the times that you haven't read a TOS. Can you honestly say that you have read all of them? Did you read the "Terms of Service" of this website? Anyone who doesn't read the TOS of a website I would think is sinning because if I'm not mistaken, most websites require that you actually UNDERSTAND & Agree to their terms before you use their services. You are sinning because you could be potentially violating the TOS because you chose to skip it. Many people commit the act of "Copyright Infringement" online and they are not even aware of it. If they had just read the TOS, they would not have broken the rules in the first place. Now, they can get sued for using someone's work without permission. Don't use the excuse that that's common sense, because not everyone knows the laws.
For example, Music. People download music all the time not thinking that their is nothing wrong with what they are doing, but they are totally mistaken, they are STEALING MUSIC without paying (from Youtube etc). If they had only read the TOS, they would know that they are stealing music.
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