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Do our Works count towards Salvation?

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Momzilla

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You have to distinguish between "works of the law" (e.g., circumcision), which St. Paul condemned in Romans, and works of faith.

As for the latter, see, e.g., the parable of the sheep and the goats. How was the distinction made? By works, of course.

Edited to clarify: Certainly, we will be judged based on our works. I do not know how judgment and salvation differ, if indeed they do (I tend to think they do not).
 
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SoC

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We are saved by faith alone. If works had anything to do with it, the robber that Jesus said would be in paradise with him was screwed over and lied to, since he didn't have a chance from that point until his death to do any works. Also, that would make a liar out of our Lord and the Bible in many places.

A lot of people confuse James as thinking that works save us. This is a critical misinterpretation. Works are the evidence of our faith, but do not replace our faith. They do not save us, but are one of the ways we show that we are Christ's to the world. If you've ever heard the Newsboys song Shine that's exactly what they are talking about.

I believe there is also a verse in the Bible that says that our good works will be like crowns in Heaven that we get to lay at Jesus feet when we worship Him. On the other hand, those who don't have any good works to show for their faith are saved, but only as if they have escaped a fire.
 
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mike1reynolds

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This is my favorite verse to quote today:

[bible]romans 2:13-15[/bible]

In 1 John 4:7 it says the same thing, but adds that to know love is to know God because God IS love.

And then of course there is the extremely explicit statement by James that faith without works is dead. So very explicitly, faith without works does not save. To claim otherwise is to simply throw James out of the Bible.
 
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Dondi

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There is division within the church on the issue of faith in regard to works when it comes to salvation. One faction work say that salvation is by faith without works, quoting such scripture as the following:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." - Romans 3:21, 27-28

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." - Romans 4:1-5

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." - Gal 3:2-3, 5-6

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Then there are those who point to James in support of faith by works:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:18-24

Is there anyway to reconcile these two points of view? I will attempt to do so. The first thing one should notice about these passages is that it uses the example of Abraham in both instances. Why is that significant? Because it will help distinguish what is meant by "works" in both passages. It is important to keep in mind that Abraham came before the Law of Moses. The reason Paul uses Abraham is because he is trying to make a point about what kind of faith we should have in relation to Abraham. Since Abraham came before the Law of Moses, so naturally the "works" of the Law is not binding to the faith of Abraham. So it is in this sense that we can say that faith is without works. Faith is apart of the strict obedience to the Law of Moses since the Law cannot save. The sacrificial rituals of blood of bulls and goats are inefficient to rid man of sin (Hebrews 10:4 - In fact Hebrews chapters 7-10 is good supplimental reading on this ). The Law is just the school master to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). So in this sense, faith apart from "works" (of the Law, that is) saves. But what of James? He uses the example of Abraham also, yet He speaks of faith by works. But what kind of works? The work wrought by grace. Ephesians 2:10 (the verse right after verses 8-9 earlier) says,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

These are works driven not by Law of Moses, but by love through the operation of the Holy Spirit. Remember what God promised in Ezekiel 36:26-27:

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This is a promise that the Holy Spirit will come abide in us to cause us to obey God. His Law is written on the tablet of our hearts. And the operation is motivated by love:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

Jesus summed up the Law as this:

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

The works of love replaces the works of the law. Paul said in I Corinthians 13:1-3:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity [love], I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

Following the law is nothing if it is not done in love, and that love comes from God through Jesus Christ.

"...He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." - John 15:5

So it is in this sense that James says,

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17

We are to be doers of the word, not hearers only. We are created for good works in Christ. Abraham demonstrated his works apart from the Law, being before the law, but in love for God when he offered up Isaac. He love Issac dearly, but showed that he was willing to give up Isaac for God, but was stopped by the angel.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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My perspective...



1. It depends what you mean by "works" "faith" and "salvation".... (Sorry). Catholics and Protestants sometimes mean somewhat different by these terms.


2. Sola Fide does NOT mean that works are unncessary or irrelevant for the Christian. Only that the works (deeds), per se, do not save (justify - narrow sense). They certainly are an essential part of our life in Christ - our "santification" (narrow sense of discipleship). Luther: "Faith alone saves but faith is never alone." "Faith is an active, busy thing." Catholics agree that works - not accompanied by faith - are not effectual in salvation.



MY $0.01...


Pax


- Josiah



.


 
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Sojourner1

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The reason that works are important is that works are a demonstration of salvation. Works are the result of salvation not the means to salvation.

Eph. 2:8,9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 
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ROGER459

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(Galatians 3:1-to-12) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(Gal 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [John 7:38-39]
(Gal 3:3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(Gal 3:4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
(Gal 3:5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(Gal 3:7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(Gal 3:8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(Gal 3:9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
(Gal 3:10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(Gal 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(Gal 3:12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

NOW READ Ephesians 2:8-9-10 & Titus 3:5 & Romans 11:6.

After reading those verse YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR ANSWER FROM GOD!

Thanks, Roger459
 
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mike1reynolds

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(Gal 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [John 7:38-39]
(Gal 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
This evasive focus on works of the law, as if all works were simply of the law, blatantly ignores the many other parts of the Bible that refer to works that are judged by God and not by men. This assumption that God does not judge works, only men judge works, is contrary to scripture.

[bible]Romans 2:13[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 7:21[/bible]
 
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hlaltimus

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Are we saved by faith alone, or by works alone, or by a mixture of both?

When we are judged, what exactly will we be judged on, and/or according to?

Your thoughts and Biblical evidence please!!!

"and..GO!"
We are pardoned and justified by faith alone...Romans 3:28 - "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."
We are sanctified by both faith and works together... II Thessalonians 2:13 - "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief of the truth," I Thessalonians 4:3,4 - "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,"
We will be judged eternally by works alone: Revelation 20:12,13 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."
These all fall under the general term, "Salvation" as pardon is salvation from the state of guilt from sin, justification is salvation from the absence of an acceptable righteousness because of the unrighteousness of sin, sanctification is salvation from the acts or presence of sin and eternal judgement will be salvation from the formal, public and final reckoning for sin.
 
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Sojourner1

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Romans 4:1-8
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
 
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HisKid1973

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Works are and outward "result" of a souls acknowledgement of I am a sinner, Lord Jesus save me. That places you at the Bema seat judgement where what we did for Christ will survive to glorify Him..The rest done with impure motives will be ashes..Kim
 
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Sojourner1

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hlaltimus said:
We will be judged eternally by works alone: Revelation 20:12,13 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."


As I understand it the Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers only. This takes place after Satan's rebellion (following the 1000 year reign of Christ). Those who stand before God are the "dead", which is often a term used for unbelievers. Believers will indeed stand before God and give an account of their life. This judgment can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15...

"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Notice that the foundation is Christ, and salvation rests on that foundation. The works of a believer are either rewarded or burned up. But even if the works are burned, the person is still saved becase their foundation is Jesus Christ.
 
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seekingpurity047

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This is my favorite verse to quote today:

[bible]romans 2:13-15[/bible]

In 1 John 4:7 it says the same thing, but adds that to know love is to know God because God IS love.

And then of course there is the extremely explicit statement by James that faith without works is dead. So very explicitly, faith without works does not save. To claim otherwise is to simply throw James out of the Bible.

Just becuase 1 John 4:7 says that God is love, it does not mean that love is God. If you are worshipping love, you are most definitely NOT worshipping God. You can't do that, it's a fallacy.

You can't say, for example, this:

Dogs are mammals, therefore mammals are dogs.

it just doesn't make any sense. Fallacy, Mike, fallacy.

To the glory of God,

Randy
 
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Dondi

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Any works that we do is performed in the operation of God through the Spirit of God in us. This is why Paul says in I Corinthians 15:10,

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Before we've received the Spirit of God, all works we tried to accomplish is done in our flesh and therefore not sanctioned by God: "...all our righteousness are as filthy rags..." - Isaiah 64:6 Strict adherance to the Law is all for not because we are doing those things in our flesh, apart from God.

But when we do receive the Spirit of God, then the works we do are performed in Christ Jesus. As we abide in Him, we are able to accomplish His will through our relationship with Him. The reason God will say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you" is because those people do not have the Spirit of God in them while performing those works. They boast of their own glory rather rightfully giving the glory to God that should be working in them.

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." - John 15:4-5

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10
 
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mike1reynolds

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Just becuase 1 John 4:7 says that God is love, it does not mean that love is God.
"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."

You are contradicting John, not me.

If you are worshipping love, you are most definitely NOT worshipping God. You can't do that, it's a fallacy.
That is pure nonsense too: do you worhsip faith? The whole supposition is meaningless, no one worships love, the concept has no meaning. You just put words together randomly, but you couldn't even begin to define what it means to worship love or faith rather than God.

The issue here is knowledge, changing the subject to worship is an evasion of the issue.
 
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HisKid1973

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Remember the setting..Was the scriptures speaking to believers..The fruits of the Spirit are only available to believers in Christ..We can't be expected to "do " anything that will be judged till we repent...That acknowledgement of I am a sinner/Jesus save me is not a "work" it is the foundation from which the works can be built on...K
 
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OntheDL

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Does work matter?

Our work does not earn us salvation. But our work reflects our characters: who we really are. So work is positive proof of if we are saved or not.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, ...

Jame 1
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 
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