Do Orthodox use Inverted Pentegrams?

[Frankie]

Need your help.

In the UO section of the forum, under a thread I started called "lds beliefs true or false", we are discussing the inverted pentegram. I was directed by an lds to and lds apologetics site that talks of inverted pentegrams and maintains that they are a Christian symbol and not a satanic symbol. One of the photos posted on the lds site article show and EO painting and what the lds claim is an inverted pentagram behind it. Is this true, do they EO embrase inverted pentegrams as symbols of Christ?

I don't think I can post the lds article link in here because of forum rules but if you have the time, I would appreciate it if you could go look at the picture and tell me what your church believes on this subject. It is at fairlds.org and in the search area, type in "use of stars on temples" and it will pull the article up in adobe format. Thank you very much for your help on this.

God Bless You all,
Frankie

 

[Frankie]

One more thing I want to make clear. I only want an answer on this. It is in NO way intended for a debate. It is just that sense the lds made the claim of this, I wanted to come to you guys, those who are actaully Orthodox to get an answer on this one.


Thanks,
Frankie

 

[Oblio]

One more thing I want to make clear. I only want an answer on this. It is in NO way intended for a debate. It is just that sense the lds made the claim of this, I wanted to come to you guys, those who are actaully Orthodox to get an answer on this one.


Thanks,
Frankie

That's the way I took it, but thanks for the clarification.

FWIW, I don't ever recall seeing that symbol, can you give a full link to the document.

[mod beenie on]
I think a link is fine so we can investigate this claim
[/beenie]

 

[Frankie]

That's the way I took it, but thanks for the clarification.

FWIW, I don't ever recall seeing that symbol, can you give a full link to the document.

[mod beenie on]
I think a link is fine so we can investigate this claim
[/beenie]

I would be happy to, I just didn't want to do anything to break the rules of the forum since you are ok with me posting it, here it is

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai131.html

Just click on "inverted stars on the lds temples" and it will pull up the article with the picture. The picture of the painting is towards the bottem of the article. Thanks for your willingness to help me with this question.

God Bless You,
Frankie

 

[Oblio]

I happen to have ref #23 that referenced in the link, I will see what someone who actually knows about icons has to say about this.

 

[Iacobus]

I would be happy to, I just didn't want to do anything to break the rules of the forum since you are ok with me posting it, here it is

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai131.html

Just click on "inverted stars on the lds temples" and it will pull up the article with the picture. The picture of the painting is towards the bottem of the article. Thanks for your willingness to help me with this question.

God Bless You,
Frankie

Hi Frankie:

If I've got the right picture, that is an icon of the Transfiguration. We've got a resident iconographer on board here, and this is really a ready made question for him. Hopefully, he'll show up soon -- can't miss him -- fellow by the name of Iconographer.

Anyway, I can tell you that what is being represented behind Christ is the Uncreated Light. I don't think it has any connection with pentagrams, but is simply an iconographic device. But Iconographer can fill you in for sure.

James

 

[Oblio]

What did the inverted five-pointed star mean to the
early Christians? A clue may be found in some of the
artworks of the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches.
In some paintings that illustrate the Mount of Trans-figuration,
various artists from these denominations
show Jesus Christ standing before a large, inverted five-pointed
star (some with an elongated bottom ray).23 The
apostle Peter said of the three apostles who witnessed
the manifestation on this mountain that they received
the “more sure word of prophecy” and because of this
the “day star” arose in their hearts.24 Both the NIV and
NASB translations of this verse render “day star” as
“morning star.”25

A clue may be found ....

Where is that smiley when ya need 'im ??

 

[Oblio]

.

23. See Leonid Ouspensky and Vladimir Lossky, The Meaning
of Icons (Boston, Massachusetts: Boston Book and Art Shop,
1952), 213; Engelina Smirnova, Moscow Icons: 14th–17th Cen-turies
(Oxford: Phaidon, 1989), figure 121; V. N. Lazarev, Mos-cow
School of Icon Painting (Moscow: Ishkusstvo, 1971), fig-ures
25 and 48.
24. 2 Peter 1:19, emphasis added; see also D&C 131:5. Joseph
Smith connected the ideas of having “the day Star arise” in
one’s heart, receiving the “more sure word of prophecy,” and
“making [one’s] calling and election sure.” [The Words of Jo-seph
Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Dis-courses
of the Prophet Joseph, edited by Andrew F. Ehat and
Lyndon W. Cook (Orem, Utah: Grandin Book, 1991), 207; com-pare
Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commen-tary
(Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973), 3:356.]
25. See Revelation 2:26, 28.

 

[Frankie]

.

YOu all are so great for helping me with this.
OK, I read the reference quote but I think I am dense because I am not getting what it is saying or how it can be reffered to with the picture of the transfiguration. It (the painting) really does not look like it has any kind of a inverted pentagram in it, to me. What am I missing here? Please be patient with me guys, I am not at all knowlegable in EO meanings and traditions. About all I know about the EO is that you all are my brothers and sisters in the one true Christ....heheh

Frankie

 

[Frankie]

A clue may be found ....

Where is that smiley when ya need 'im ??

hey ya, what happened to the roll eyes smiley?

 

[Philip]

The citation about St Constantine's seal is correct.

 

[countrymousenc]

I remember Aria posting a comment about this a couple months or so ago, but she didn't have the reference handy. There must be a way to find out more. (cm heads for nearest search engine...)

 

[Oblio]

Looking at Lossky's narative, he describes a hexagon (note that my actual copy of the referenced work does not match the picture of the Icon on the LDS site) that must represent the "bright cloud" which revealed the transcendant source of the Divine energies. Some Icons may have 5 pointed geometric figures, but it is quite clear that the number of sides/points is not consistent, and therefore of no theological significance.

Since the LDS are obviously proof-imaging to support their doctrines, you might want to point out to them how they conveniently ignored the 3 Trinitarian rays emanating from between Christ's feet. This is consistent and appears not only in this but in other Icons.

 

[Oblio]

If anyone is interested, I can post the paragraph on the theological aspects of this particular Icon.

 

[Lotar]

hey ya, what happened to the roll eyes smiley?

It's all Aria's fault.



That's probably why she changed her name from Chanter, she was getting death threats for talking Erwin into getting rid of the best smilie.

 

[Frankie]

Looking at Lossky's narative, he describes a hexagon (note that my actual copy of the referenced work does not match the picture of the Icon on the LDS site) that must represent the "bright cloud" which revealed the transcendant source of the Divine energies. Some Icons may have 5 pointed geometric figures, but it is quite clear that the number of sides/points is not consistent, and therefore of no theological significance.

Since the LDS are obviously proof-imaging to support their doctrines, you might want to point out to them how they conveniently ignored the 3 Trinitarian rays emanating from between Christ's feet. This is consistent and appears not only in this but in other Icons.

Hi Oblio. Are you saying that the icon in the actual copy of the refrenced work is not the one that the LDS claim it is? Does this mean they have altered the picture to make it appear differently?

 

[Frankie]

If anyone is interested, I can post the paragraph on the theological aspects of this particular Icon.

Yes, please do.

 

[Frankie]

The citation about St Constantine's seal is correct.

Philip, does this mean that the inverted pentagram was considered a christian symbol or just that Constantine himself considered it one?

God Bless,

Frankie

 

[Oblio]

Hi Oblio. Are you saying that the icon in the actual copy of the refrenced work is not the one that the LDS claim it is? Does this mean they have altered the picture to make it appear differently?

Not sure, since I do not have an Orthodox copy of the Icon in question. Was perhaps altered ?? You could ask the same question substituting another of God's word to us, Holy Scripture I look askance at everything that comes from them, especially slick apologetics.

Standby on the quote from Lossky ...

 

[Oblio]

[c]

[/c]

From The Meaning of Icons - Ouspensky, Lossky

In iconography, the symbolical images of the Transfiguration (St. Apollinare in Classe at Ravenna, Vlth century), were supplanted very early by direct representations of the evangelical event. But the Gospel gives two accounts of the Transfiguration. According to the version in Mark and Matthew, the Apostles fell after having heard the voice of the Father and seen the bright cloud. According to Luke—they awoke from their sleep and saw the glory of the Christ. This latter version is to be found, for example, in the fresco of Toqale, in Cappadocia (IXth-Xth century), where the Apostles are represented seated. The two versions were to be fused together in the commentary of St.John Chrysostom21: one will see in the "sleep" (St.Luke) the stupefaction produced by the vision. It is in this sense that Nicolas Mesarites (Xllth century) describes the mosaic of the Transfiguration in the Church of the Holy Apostles at Constantinople.22 The attitudes of the Apostles vary. But, starting with the Xlth century, St. Peter will always be represented kneeling, supported on his left hand, and raising his right hand to protect himself from the light (or to make a gesture accompanying the words that he addresses to Christ). St.John (always in the centre) falls, turning his back to the light. St. James flees before the light or falls backwards. In the XIIIth century, icons are more frequently met, which aim to accentuate the expressive attitudes of the Apostles: they fall precipitately from the rugged summit, overwhelmed by the vision. This iconographic type became general in the XlVth century, at the time of the controversy over the Light of Tabor: the intention was to underline, in iconography, the uncreated character of the Light of the Transfiguration. It is this that we see in the icon reproduced here (Russsian, XVth century): St. Peter has fallen on his knees; so has St. John; St. James has fallen on his back, still looking at Christ, but protecting his eyes with his hand.
Christ transfigured is represented standing on the summit of the mountain, speaking with Moses and Elias. His raiment is shining white. The geometrical figure (in our icon it is a hexagon) inscribed in the circle of the mandorla, must represent the "bright cloud" which revealed the transcendant source of the Divine energies. The three rays pointed down upon the apostles are an indication that the action in the Transfiguration is trinitarian (we often see this symbol in other icons, such as the Annunciation, the Theophany, and others). Moses (on the right) in our icon is holding a book; generally it is the tables of the Decalogue—Elias (on the left) is an old man with long hair. St. John Chrysostom23 gives several reasons to explain the presence of Moses and Elias at the moment of the Transfiguration. 1. they represent the law and the prophets; 2. both had had a secret vision of God, one on Mt. Sinai, the other on Carmel; 3. Moses represents the dead, whilst Elias, taken up to heaven on a chariot of fire, represents the living. This last interpretation has been emphasised above all in liturgical texts, and has sometimes found expression in iconography: thus at Nereditza, on an image of the XVIth or XVIIth century, an angel is drawing Moses from the tomb, another is making Elias emerge from a cloud. This insistence is comprehensible; it underlines the eschatological character of the Transfiguration. Christ appears as the Lord of the quick and the dead, coming in the glory of the future age. The Transfiguration was "an anticipation of His glorious Second Coming", says St. Basil24: the moment which opened a perspective of eternity in time.