DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rev20

Are you certain it does not mean, split into three warring factions, like first-century Jerusalem?​

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Thank you for this information

It is an eye opener to know that there were "three warring factions" in first-century Jerusalem.
I am certain, however, that when the Great City is split into three parts, these three sections will not be warring amongst themselves................

Just Old Dave
A Preterist Party Pooper

You are essentially considered a "Preterist" anyway, at least as far as the Futurists are concerned. Wanna join forces?



Philippians 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and do count them as dung, that I may win Christ,



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[Dave Watchman]

[/INDENT]

You are essentially considered a "Preterist" anyway, at least as far as the Futurists are concerned. Wanna join forces?



Philippians 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and do count them as dung, that I may win Christ,



.

I just don't understand how I could have turned into a Preterist without knowin it. Could I have drank the Kool-Aide without knowin it?
I feel like the Jethro Clampett of Bible Eschatology.

Old Timer was right about you guys

 

[rockytopva]

Anyone pick up that God did not need the help of man in building the city I would imagine God thinking on what man could do, I would hate to see it!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I just don't understand how I could have turned into a Preterist without knowin it. Could I have drank the Kool-Aide without knowin it?
I feel like the Jethro Clampett of Bible Eschatology.

Old Timer was right about you guys

Futurists tend to have the Jethro Clampett syndrome.

"Daddy, I iz a futurist with a 3rd grade education? Me smart as you."




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[Rev20]

Thank you for this information
It is an eye opener to know that there were "three warring factions" in first-century Jerusalem.
I am certain, however, that when the Great City is split into three parts, these three sections will not be warring amongst themselves.

"And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand".

End time Babylon, The Great City, will be a global phenomenon that will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Don't worry, She will have no problem standing during her appointed time. If you find peace in believing that all the bad stuff in Daniel and Revelation is over and done with, then may peace be with you.

I'd say that first century Jerusalem was small potatoes compared with what we have coming up. Tacitus said that Jerusalem at its fall contained 600,000 persons. Josephus said that there were as many as 1,100,000 killed at the DofJ with most of them visiting for the Passover festival. 6,000,000 Jewish men, women and children were killed by Hitler in WW2. When The Great City gets her teeth at the sixth trumpet, these numbers will pale in comparison.

Christ said two cities had the blood of the prophets on its hands. This is Jerusalem:

1) killed the prophets
2) killed some of the apostles
3) was responsible for the blood of all the prophets
4) was responsible for all the righteous blood
5) all that blood was required of the generation of Christ
6) a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" -- Luke 13:34​

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matt 23:34-36​

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:49-51​

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." -- Luke 13:33​

Christ said this about Babylon the Great:

1) responsible for the blood of apostles
2) responsible for the blood of prophets'
3) responsible for the blood of all that were slain upon the earth

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." -- Rev 18:20​

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:24​

Question 1:
If Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets, where did those prophets come from that were killed by Babylon the Great?

Question 2:
How could any prophet be killed inside Babylon the Great, if a prophet could only be killed inside Jerusalem?

Question 3:
How could Jerusalem be responsible for all the righteous blood, if Babylon the Great was responsible for the blood of all that were slain upon the earth?

Answer to all three:
Babylon the Great was Jerusalem.


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[Rev20]

I am afraid that we are living in an intermission between two great periods of Christian persecution. It also seems to me that God has a specific number of martyrs in mind to be given into the hands of The Great City when The Dragon resumes His pursuit of the Women.

During that intermission, keep a watch out for the 100-pound hailstones:

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." -- Rev 16:21​

If you want to know what it will be like having 100 pound hailstones raining down on you, a similar thing happened to first-century Jerusalem; only in that case they were real stones, of the same weight, being hurled at Jerusalem from a quarter-mile away by the Roman armies:

"The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." [Flavius Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book V.6.3, p 1424]​

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[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 58:

John 3:17

John 3:17a means that God didn't send Jesus into the world to condemn the world before Jesus' 2nd coming, when Jesus will condemn the world (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Luke 12:49).

Also, even some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

John 3:17b doesn't require that God sent Jesus into the world to save everyone in the world, just as saying that a person has come to save Broadway wouldn't require that that person has come to save every show on Broadway.

In the Bible, "the world" doesn't have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 doesn't include believers, so "the world" in John 3:16 doesn't include the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it doesn't include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who didn't hear Jesus speak to them during his preaching before his arrest.

Rev20 said in post 58:

Isa 65:17-21

Isaiah 65:20 could refer to a new race of humans who will be created along with the new earth (Isaiah 65:17), but who will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live for about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27), so that if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the new earth, then it can't refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time that the new earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who got saved and remained obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who didn't get saved or who remained disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46) or into the outer darkness (Matthew 25:30, Matthew 8:12, Jude 1:13b) of outer space.

The physically resurrected, immortal humans could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans (of Isaiah 65:20) in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal humans will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

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Rev20 said in post 66:

Rev 16:21

Revelation 16:21 refers to 100-pound hailstones which will be literal hailstones, just as the plagues of hailstones from God in Exodus 9:25 and Joshua 10:11 were literal hailstones. Also, the 100-pound hailstones in Revelation 16:21 will plague mankind in general, and only after the never-fulfilled first 6 vials of Revelation 16 have all been fulfilled in our future. Also at the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20). And Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed only when the cities of the nations are destroyed at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19). None of these things has happened yet. So the 7th vial hasn't happened yet.

 

[Rev20]

Revelation 16:21 refers to 100-pound hailstones which will be literal hailstones, just as the plagues of hailstones from God in Exodus 9:25 and Joshua 10:11 were literal hailstones.

So, if I understand you correctly:

1) Stars are not stars (Rev 1:20, 2:28, 6:13, 8:10, 9:1, 12:1, 22:16)
2) Candlesticks are not candlesticks (Rev 1:20, 11:4)
3) Olive trees are not olive trees (Rev 11:4)
4) Lambs are not lambs (Rev 5:6, 6:1, 13:11, 14:1, 19:7, etc.)
5) Fire is not fire (Rev 1:14. 3:18, 9:17, 11:5)
6) Waters are not waters (Rev 17:15)
7) Fountains of water are not fountains of water (Rev 7:17, 8:10)
8) Swords are not swords (Rev 1:16, 19:15, 19:21)
9) Beasts are not beasts (Rev 4:5, 13:1)

BUUUUUTTTTTTTT…. hailstones ARE LITERAL hailstones (Rev 16:21)

I think I understand. Futurists first created a doctrine, and then spiritualized the scriptures to make them fit that doctrine.

Don't let anyone fool you.

If one interprets a literal item as a figurative item, they are spiritualizing the scriptures

BUT, the alternative is also true:

If one interprets a figurative item as a literal item, they are also spiritualizing the scriptures.


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[Dave Watchman]

During that intermission, keep a watch out for the 100-pound hailstones:

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." -- Rev 16:21​

If you want to know what it will be like having 100 pound hailstones raining down on you, a similar thing happened to first-century Jerusalem; only in that case they were real stones, of the same weight, being hurled at Jerusalem from a quarter-mile away by the Roman armies:

"The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." [Flavius Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book V.6.3, p 1424]​

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That's funny.
I think it was LLofJ that told me they painted the stones white at the DofJ from the George Holford book. The 100 pound hail from Rev 16 comes at the end of the tribulation, it can't hurt us during the intermission we are in. In fact, it won't hurt us when it does fall because if we make it alive to that point we will be untouchable. It will only destroy the wicked, and man will it ever leave a mark. The 100 pound hail on the last day of the trib will be much more destructive than the Roman stones as it will fall at great speed from the sky all around the world. If the speed of the hail is taken into consideration,it doesn't take much logical extrapolation to know it will be on fire and hit with great explosive force. DofJ becomes DofE, the Earth will need a 1000 year Sabbath rest after that ordeal.

 

[Rev20]

That's funny.
I think it was LLofJ that told me they painted the stones white at the DofJ from the George Holford book. The 100 pound hail from Rev 16 comes at the end of the tribulation, it can't hurt us during the intermission we are in. In fact, it won't hurt us when it does fall because if we make it alive to that point we will be untouchable. It will only destroy the wicked, and man will it ever leave a mark.

It is too bad the Lord did not protect the apostles and early Christians like you believe he will protect you.

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." -- Acts 14:22​

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[Dave Watchman]

It is too bad the Lord did not protect the apostles and early Christians like you believe he will protect you.

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." -- Acts 14:22​

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I understand what you're saying but think about this. When the hail falls down from God the tribulation will be over. The 42 months of Babylon will be done. It is done. It is finished. Every island and mountain is moved out of it's place. This is the final wrath that Paul said we are not appointed to. In other words, I'd estimate that when this Hail falls we would be a matter of minutes away from being changed in the twinkling of an eye. Nothin left to do but to fly away.

Nothin special about Old Dave
Know what I mean, Jelly Bean

 

[Dave Watchman]

Christ said two cities had the blood of the prophets on its hands. This is Jerusalem:

1) killed the prophets
2) killed some of the apostles
3) was responsible for the blood of all the prophets
4) was responsible for all the righteous blood
5) all that blood was required of the generation of Christ
6) a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" -- Luke 13:34​

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matt 23:34-36​

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:49-51​

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." -- Luke 13:33​

Christ said this about Babylon the Great:

1) responsible for the blood of apostles
2) responsible for the blood of prophets'
3) responsible for the blood of all that were slain upon the earth

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." -- Rev 18:20​

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:24​

Question 1:
If Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets, where did those prophets come from that were killed by Babylon the Great?

Question 2:
How could any prophet be killed inside Babylon the Great, if a prophet could only be killed inside Jerusalem?

Question 3:
How could Jerusalem be responsible for all the righteous blood, if Babylon the Great was responsible for the blood of all that were slain upon the earth?

Answer to all three:
Babylon the Great was Jerusalem.


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Rev20, This thing has been going around and around for hundreds of years. I don't think you and me are going to solve it today. If you believe in Jesus, you are a Brother of mine. I also have the greatest of respect for the number of years you have been at work with this.

Christ said two cities had the blood of the prophets on its hands. It's because He's talking about two different cities occupying two different times. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets up to and including the year of Her destruction. Jerusalem cannot be responsible for the blood of all the prophets that will come after Her destruction.

How many prophets was Jerusalem responsible for? I found 23 from "Lives of the Prophets". What if there were hundreds more unknown prophets. Lets just round it off and say Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of TEN THOUSAND prophets. As sad as this sounds to say I'm afraid it is still small potatoes for what we have coming up. The Great City should be good for 100 million prophets and saints when she gets her teeth. Christian martyrdom during the dark ages is estimated at 50 to 75 million, I probably low balled it for Babylon.

Jesus is about to empower 12 new apostles, just like He did with Paul. This time it's 12,000 X 12,000 disciples that will be knocked off their horses. There will be about 1 of them for every 50,000 of us all spread out on a global scale. Most will be Chinese or Indian, all will eat the little book that tastes sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. 144,000 instant disciples will proclaim The Gospel of the Kingdom throughout the whole world and then the end will come. When Jesus meets with them, I wouldn't be surprised if He tells them something like this:

Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you,
you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


In addition to the 144,000 your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.

You want prophets?, we'll have prophets all over the place.




Question 1:
If Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets, where did those prophets come from that were killed by Babylon the Great?

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel.

Question 2:
How could any prophet be killed inside Babylon the Great, if a prophet could only be killed inside Jerusalem?

"Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you." He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

Not all the prophets were killed in Jerusalem and most just died of old age in the towns where they lived.

Jeremiah: suffered martyrdom by stoning at Tahpanhes in Ancient Egypt.

Ezekiel: suffered martyrdom in the land of the Chaldeans.

Matthew: suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged by idolatrous priests on an olive tree in Greece.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross in Rome.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India.

Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome.
(He did not die but would live on to write the Book of Revelation in 94 AD.) (I couldn't resist)


So what did Jesus mean by no prophet can die outside Jerusalem'?

It sounds to me like a sarcastic way of pointing out that Jerusalem was where the prophets went to warn Israel of coming wrath, and that those prophets were always killed there in Jerusalem. In other words, they could not die outside of Jerusalem because they were killed before they had a chance to leave. Jesus is saying that the people of Jerusalem, never show any thanks for the warnings God gives. They kill the messenger who tries to bring them back to God.

Question 3:
How could Jerusalem be responsible for all the righteous blood, if Babylon the Great was responsible for the blood of all that were slain upon the earth?

(1) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets" and
(2)"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth",
have and will occur at two different times. We are living in an intermission between these two times. Persecution of the 144,000 new prophets will begin on a global scale along with the Saints and will last 42 months in our future.



Yes Jesus loves me
The Bible Tell's me so

 

[Rev20]

I understand what you're saying but think about this. When the hail falls down from God the tribulation will be over. The 42 months of Babylon will be done. It is done. It is finished. Every island and mountain is moved out of it's place. This is the final wrath that Paul said we are not appointed to. In other words, I'd estimate that when this Hail falls we would be a matter of minutes away from being changed in the twinkling of an eye. Nothin left to do but to fly away.

Nothin special about Old Dave
Know what I mean, Jelly Bean

Both Babylon the Great and 1st century Jerusalem were responsible for the same blood: the prophets. How do you resolve that?


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[Rev20]

How many prophets was Jerusalem responsible for? I found 23 from "Lives of the Prophets". What if there were hundreds more unknown prophets.

The number of prophets is irrelevant. Jesus said Jerusalem was responsible for all of them; and Jesus said a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem.

Therefore, when Jesus said that Babylon the Great was also responsible for the blood of prophets, that should be a red flag for all Christians.

The only logical conclusion is, Jerusalem was Babylon the Great.


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[Dave Watchman]

[QU OTE=Rev20;66217171]Both Babylon the Great and 1st century Jerusalem were both responsible for the same blood: the prophets. How do you resolve that?


.[/QUOTE]

Two different cities, two different sets of prophets. One in the first century, the next will be coming right up.
There is another consideration,however. If 1st century Jerusalem met the stipulations set out in Daniel 9 and accepted their Messiah, there would be no end time Babylon or intermission between an end time persecution. The Kingdom of God would be in place now. So in an indirect way, you could say that 1st century Jerusalem is responsible for the mess we're in now.
I'm sure that John the Baptizer would have been pleased if it went the other way.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The number of prophets is irrelevant. Jesus said Jerusalem was responsible for all of them; and Jesus said a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem.

Therefore, when Jesus said that Babylon the Great was also responsible for the blood of prophets, that should be a red flag for all Christians.

The only logical conclusion is, Jerusalem was Babylon the Great.


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Rev20, Relax, if you have your heart set on Jerusalem being Babylon the Great, then may peace be with you.

 

[Rev20]

There is another consideration,however. If 1st century Jerusalem met the stipulations set out in Daniel 9 and accepted their Messiah, there would be no end time Babylon or intermission between an end time persecution. The Kingdom of God would be in place now.

You don't really believe that myth, do you, that the Church was some sort of afterthought? The prophets predicted Jesus would be rejected and murdered, long before the Jews had a chance to murder him.

The creation of the Church was a common theme in the prophecies. One of the earliest clear references to Christ as the Church came from David:

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." -- Ps 118:22​

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Isaiah provided these prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem, with references to the Church:

"Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken." -- Isa 8:13-15​

​

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." -- Isa 28:14-18​

​

Zechariah provided this one of Christ as the servant with seven eyes:

"Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." -- Zec 3:8-9​

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"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth." -- Zec 4:10​

​

And they are not mentioned again until Christ is slain and standing before the throne of God:

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." -- Rev 5:6​

​

The latter chapters of Zechariah are a timeline of Christ, from his entry into Jerusalem on a colt; to his betrayal; to his piercing while hanging on the cross; to the scattering of the shepherd-less sheep (his disciples); to the day of Pentecost and the destruction of Jerusalem. His destiny on the cross was foretold long before the Jews schemed to murder him.

Those are only a small sample of the many prophecies of Christ's crucifixion and the creation of the Church. But probably the most bewildering reference to those who believe that the Church was an afterthought is this:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" -- Eph 5:25​

​

That doesn't sound like an afterthought to me.

I don't know when, or by whom, the myth was created that the Jews and Jerusalem had a choice in the matter. They were destined for vengeance and punishment for their future evil ways from at least the days of Moses (Deut 28 & 31); and mentioned directly as targets by Christ in Isaiah (61:2). God knew their hearts from the beginning; as He knew the hearts of the elect (Paul, Peter, John, etc.) from the beginning.


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[Rev20]

Rev20, Relax, if you have your heart set on Jerusalem being Babylon the Great, then may peace be with you.

If it was a matter of heart, Dave, I would believe what-ever my imagination came up with; and I would probably be a futurist, cause that is where the money is.


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[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 68:

So, if I understand you correctly:

1) Stars are not stars (Rev 1:20, 2:28, 6:13, 8:10, 9:1, 12:1, 22:16)
2) Candlesticks are not candlesticks (Rev 1:20, 11:4)
3) Olive trees are not olive trees (Rev 11:4)
4) Lambs are not lambs (Rev 5:6, 6:1, 13:11, 14:1, 19:7, etc.)
5) Fire is not fire (Rev 1:14. 3:18, 9:17, 11:5)
6) Waters are not waters (Rev 17:15)
7) Fountains of water are not fountains of water (Rev 7:17, 8:10)
8) Swords are not swords (Rev 1:16, 19:15, 19:21)
9) Beasts are not beasts (Rev 4:5, 13:1)

BUUUUUTTTTTTTT…. hailstones ARE LITERAL hailstones (Rev 16:21)

That's right, insofar as just as (for a few, preliminary examples):

1) The angel was a literal angel in Revelation 1:1
2) The 7 churches were 7 literal congregations in Revelation 1:4
3) "Asia" was the literal Roman province of "Asia" (what is today Western Turkey) in Revelation 1:4
4) The seven Spirits which are before God's throne are literal in Revelation 1:4b
5) God's throne is literal in Revelation 1:4b
6) The clouds will be literal at Jesus' (never-fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 1:7
7) The eyes and the seeing will be literal at Jesus' (never-fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 1:7
8) The piercing is literal in Revelation 1:7
9) The island which is called Patmos is literal in Revelation 1:9
10) The book is literal in Revelation 1:11

So the hailstones will be literal in Revelation 16:21.

For Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

Rev20 said in post 68:

7) Fountains of water are not fountains of water (Rev 7:17, 8:10)

Note that they can be literal in both verses.

Rev20 said in post 68:

8) Swords are not swords (Rev 1:16, 19:15, 19:21)

Note that the "sword" in Revelation 1:16 and Revelation 19:15,21 can be a literal, spiritual sword, like the one in Genesis 3:24. And at the same time, it can also be symbolic of the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17), just as, for example, the fruitless fig tree which Jesus cursed was a literal tree, which at the same time symbolized fruitless, unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:19,43).

 

[Rev20]

That's right, insofar as just as (for a few, preliminary examples):

1) The angel was a literal angel in Revelation 1:1
2) The 7 churches were 7 literal congregations in Revelation 1:4
3) "Asia" was the literal Roman province of "Asia" (what is today Western Turkey) in Revelation 1:4
4) The seven Spirits which are before God's throne are literal in Revelation 1:4b
5) God's throne is literal in Revelation 1:4b
6) The clouds will be literal at Jesus' (never-fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 1:7
7) The eyes and the seeing will be literal at Jesus' (never-fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 1:7
8) The piercing is literal in Revelation 1:7
9) The island which is called Patmos is literal in Revelation 1:9
10) The book is literal in Revelation 1:11

So the hailstones will be literal in Revelation 16:21.

For Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally.

There you go again with your pretense that only "saved people" can understand the Revelation. Are you copy/pasting this trash from another source? It seems almost word for word from the last time you trashed others as being "non-Christian" if they didn't believe your false doctrine of "literalism".

The Revelation was written primarily for the first-century Christians. The only part that was written for us begins in the second part of Revelation 20, when Satan is released of his prison and goes out to deceive the Church, worldwide; which he is doing at the very moment, and has been doing for half-century, or more. Since Satan's primary target is the Church (and has been since its inception,) I would look for his infiltration into Church doctrine around the time our western culture started going downhill this past century. The best advice, as always, is to follow the money.


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