Do Not Bash Muslims

[JosephZ]

In some locations it does apply to non-Muslims. Actually in many places it applies to some level; drinking alcohol in Saudi Arabia for instance.

This is true, but those examples are of political governments whose leaders base their laws on local interpretations of the Qur'an and haddiths. These rules and laws of course vary from culture to culture and will often contradict what Islam teaches, but I think you would agree that non-Muslims living in western countries have nothing to fear when it comes to Shari'a.

 

[Yytz6]

but I think you would agree that non-Muslims living in western countries have nothing to fear when it comes to Shari'a.

No, nothing, besides for how far they themselves might go in their attempts to control their fear of it.

 

[Joyousperson]

Hi Joyousperson,

Well, blessings to you Brother. Your heart is good.

We will just have to respectfully disagree on this. I see the Qur'an repeatedly warning Christians and Jews for not obeying their Scriptures, but not that the Scriptures themselves are to blame.

The Qur'an is accusing the Christians and Jews for doing or teaching falsely.

The Qur'an actually states that the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians have no value for them because they do not practice what it says, and not that the Scriptures themselves are faulty.

Qur'an 5:68 Say (O Muhammad ) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.

Qur'an 5:47 Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.

Qur'an 5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith.

Qur'an 5:48 And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture [ma bayna yadayhi: "that which is with you," [the Taurat (Torah) and the Gospel (Injeel)] and [Mohayminan: trustworthy in highness and a witness or watcher] over it (the previous Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.

Notice the Torah and Gospel are upheld, "but follow not their vain desires."

Sunan Jami` at-Tirmidhi
[One of "the six books" (Kutub al-Sittah - the six major hadith collections of Sunni Islam]
Volume 5, Book 41, Hadith 2653 (Sahih Narration)
Start of Quote<<
Narrated Jubair bin Nufair: from Abu Ad-Darda who said:"We were with the Prophet (Peace be upon him) when he raised his sight to the sky, then he said: 'This is the time when knowledge is to be taken from the people [Muslims], until what remains of it shall not amount to anything."
So Ziyad bin Labid Al-Ansari said: 'How will it be taken from us [Muslims] while we recite the Qur'an. By Allah we recite it, and our women and children recite it?' He (Peace be upon him) said: 'May you be bereaved of your mother O Ziyad! I used to consider you among the Fuqaha [Jurists] of the people of Al-Madinah. The Tawrah [Torah] and Injil [Gospel] are with the Jews and Christians, but what do they avail of them?'"
Jubair said: "So I met 'Ubadah bin As-Samit and said to him: 'Have you not heard what your brother Abu Ad-Darda said?' Then I informed him of what Abu Ad-Darda said. He said: 'Abu Ad-Darda spoke the truth.
If you wish, we shall narrate to you about the first knowledge to be removed from the people: It is Khushu'[a heart of humble reverence and submission to Allah while offering daily salah (prayers)], soon you will enter the congregational Masjid, but not see any man in it with Khushu'.'"
>>End of Quote

Notice that the Jews and Christians still had their Scriptures - with no sign of corruption. RATHER, Muhammad stated that the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians did not avail them because they lacked faith.

Notice in the below Scriptures that the Christians are to blame - what they are saying, and going beyond the limits of their religion, not that their Scriptures are to blame.

Qur'an 4:171. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Qur'an 5:17 They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

Qur'an 5:72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.
73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
74. Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
75. The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to correspond regarding this issue.

Blessings to you in all the work you are doing to bring the Truth to those who are lost or seeking.

My approach is to compare the present Torah and Gospel in the hands of the present Jews and Christian to the present Quran in the hands of the present Muslims, note the differences then work backward.
It is obvious there is nothing in the Torah and Gospels to confirm Muhammad was to be the final messiah which Muhammad claimed was hidden, thus omitted in the present texts.

Noted, we shall agree to disagree on this issue.

 

[Joyousperson]

How so? What I said about you in that post is true.

Muslims don't interpret Islam or the Qur'an as you do and you are legitimizing a violent sect of Islam that is rejected by the vast majority of the world's Muslims.

I haven't ever seen where you have done this, nor have I ever suggested that you have.

Note when you state I am legitimizing what the extremists are doing, meant I am endorsing, condoning and agreeing with their evil acts. That is a lie.

All I have done is stating the fact what the Muslims who committed evil and violent acts in the name of Islam are committing those acts as commanded by Allah in the Quran.
Thus my proposal and solution is for all to recognize this fact and find solutions to resolve it.

No. What you are doing is counterproductive to reducing and/or eliminating violent Islamic extremism. You are highlighting the ethos of evil and violence that is inherent within Islamic extremism and sects such as Wahhabism, not the religion of Islam that almost every Muslim on the planet follows and trying to convince people that these perverted interpretations of Islam are true Islam. There are well over a billion Muslims in this world young and old alike that will tell you what you are posting on this forum is wrong about what Islam teaches and what they believe. Do you really believe that going against the grain is going to be productive?

You are using the ad populum fallacy again, i.e. relying on what the masses believe but not on what is the fact.
Don't you have any respect for intellectual integrity and rationality?

I repeat this response from Setst;

setst RE: Islam is not defined by what individual Muslims may believe or not. Rather, Islam is founded on what the Qur'an and Muhammad actually taught.​

For the sake of argument, let's say you are 100% correct in what you are saying here. You're certainly not, but let's just say that you are for a moment.
What good will come from trying to convince the greater than 90% of the world's Muslim population that currently reject the extremist narrative and who are currently living peacefully among their non-Muslim neighbors around the world that the Qur'an commands all Muslims to hate non-Muslims, not to be friends with non-Muslims, that it's OK to kill non-Muslims under the most vague conditions, that Islam is to be spread through violent jihad, and if they do kill a non-Muslim they will be guaranteed salvation and be rewarded in paradise?

Note your 90% is contentious.

The genuine good Muslims are likely to be 20%.
The evil prone Muslims are 20%.


If we do not highlight the facts of Islam, then the balance of 60% who are sitting on the fence who could be swayed to the facts of what is Islam [intrinsically evil and violent] when their stake of salvation [are you really saved?] is brought to their awareness and knowledge.
Note the increased and increasing trend of Muslim women wearing the hijab and burga around the world since 30 years ago.
I believe the majority of Muslims are not aware of the facts of Islam as in the 6236 verses of the Quran.

Note this recent news re a very famous Bollywood actress;

Muslim Bollywood actress Zaira Wasim, 18, has announced she will quit acting, saying that the profession "threatened" her relationship with her religion.
Indian actress quits Bollywood to 'follow faith'​

Note this one example of the willingness to give up a potentially good career and earnings for religious sake to comply with the tenet of her religion to 'save' herself.
Out of the 1.6 billion there will be SOME who will get more zealous and comply or be compelled to adopt those verses which are evil and violent to get a greater assurance of being 'saved'.

So what is critical here is the balance of 60% fence sitters could be influenced to the dark side of Islam when they are cornered that to be saved they have to comply with ALL of Allah's words.

Note what is effective Problem Solving is to track to the root cause and deal with it.

What the world need is ZERO Islamic related evil and violent acts.
Because the root cause are the evil and violent elements in the Quran which is immutable, then the most effective solution in the long run is to wean off Islam to Christianity and other pacifist religions, spirituality, and the likes.

Why would anyone even want to teach such an extreme interpretation of Islam or post this nonsense on a public forum?

As I had stated these are facts.
Prove to me they are nonsense?

Wouldn't it be much easier to try and convince the less than 10% of Muslims who adhere to the extremist teachings of Islam and the 1/0th of 1% of those who proclaim to be Muslims who are actively participating in violent jihad that they are wrong about what Islam teaches, rather than try to convince the greater than 90% of Muslims who currently reject the extremist interpretation of Islam that they are the ones who are wrong?

Your thinking is too narrow and shallow.
The problem of the evil and violence of Islam is not confined to terrorism but to the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by Muslims in the name of religion.
Are you aware of extent of these evil and violent acts?

Note my point,

1. DNA wise ALL humans are embedded with the inherent potential to commit evil and violence. [you agreed].
A large % [conservatively 20%] of the above are born with an active evil tendency. e.g. the psychopaths, the aggressive, etc.
Since this is DNA driven and a natural condition, it is not likely humanity will be able to resolve this condition at present, in the near future, most likely, forever.

2. There are tons of evil and violent elements in the Quran from Allah and are commanded to be immutable, i.e. cannot be changed nor deleted.

3. Driven by the inherent desperation of salvation of either eternal life or eternal death, those evil prone will be compelled and influenced by the evil and violent elements to please Allah to assure themselves of going to paradise with eternal life.​

Therefore there is no way you can convince the 20% of evil prone [a pool of 320 million] to change their evil tendencies, unless you can tweak their DNA which is not possible nor likely at all.

Note the above facts and don't forget about them.

You are obviously putting a whole lot of time and energy into promoting this violent interpretation of Islam not only on this forum, but many others as well. You keep repeating the same content, often word for word, in multiple threads and on multiple online forums. In fact, every thread you have started since joining this forum has the exact same content in one form or another. You have even managed to incorporate this narrative into the two or three threads you started with titles not related to Islam. This is the same MO you use on other forums as well. Why do you do this? These forums you are posting on are public and can be read by people all over the world. Your method isn't going to lead to peace in the world, it's only going to lead to more confusion, division, and hate.

It a silly and stupid counter to the argument and besides it is none of your business that I had posted in various forums. [note I am seldom active in more than one site] It is a wise intellectual effective strategy to gather different views from a larger sample.

Note your sticking to one forum has produced a narrow, constricted and constipated thinking like what you are expressing at the moment.

Why I am posting the above is, whilst I am not officially a Buddhist, I have adopted the Boddhisattva's Vow to bring long lasting perpetual peace to all human beings and other living entities. My presentations and proposals are based on this Vow I have adopted.

Islam with its inherent evil and violent elements and the unavoidable natural % of evil and violent Muslims is a threat to the human species - the potential to exterminate the human species, note the WMDs threat I mentioned somewhere and this book, editors: Ackerman and Jeffrey Bale;

Jihadists and Weapons of Mass Destruction
https://www.amazon.com/Jihadists-Weapons-Mass-Destruction-Ackerman/dp/1420069640​

Far from seeking to arouse alarm, since there has been more than enough of that already, this hypothetical scenario is presented with a single purpose—namely, to highlight the change in popular thinking that has occurred with respect to the likelihood of terrorists successfully employing weapons of mass destruction.
Just two decades ago, the description of Ali and his bomb would have been dismissed as mere fantasy by the vast majority of both policymakers and the general public the world over.
Today, such a frightening scenario sounds an eerie ring of plausibility for many within and outside of government. Much of the change in threat perception can be linked to the rise of a global jihadist movement bent on converting, subordinating, or punishing all those it regards as unbelievers.
xii Introduction​

 

[Joyousperson]

Sorry, but if someone is a Muslim, we have to assume for safety's sake that, at some point, they will decide to follow the teachings of the Quran.

Are you agreeing to my point;

4. The covenanted terms of the ideology of Islam contain loads of evil and violent elements, (evidence available) [in contrast while that of Christianity is purely pacifist.]
​

Therefore a Muslim must comply to 4 above, so at some point all Muslims must perform their religious duty according the verses in the Quran of which will turn out to be evil and violent element.

 

[Joyousperson]

In some locations it does apply to non-Muslims. Actually in many places it applies to some level; drinking alcohol in Saudi Arabia for instance.

It is to be feared by many Muslims in the many counties that fail to apply it correctly.

WHO ARE YOU, me or anyone to judge they failed to apply it correctly.
What is applied as Sharia [via Ahadith] has to comply with the Quran as the main core of Islam.

From my research, it is possible some groups of Muslims may not apply it correctly, but what is wrong is at most 10%.

In the case of errors, these errors are not deliberate because no Muslim(s) would dare to go against the all-knowing-Allah's words, else they could end up in Hell.

Therefore we can assume ALL Muslims are sincere and doing their best to comply with Allah's expectations.

That there are a % of Muslims [if 10% = 160 million] committing real evil and violent acts in the name of Islam is not the Muslims's fault but the fault lies in the ideology of Islam. Therefore there is a need to censor or wean off the ideology of Islam so there will be no opportunity for any one to commit evil and violence in the name of Islam.

 

[Joyousperson]

What to do about those terrorists who admit that the teachings they claim are from the Quran aren't there? I dare say one would have to be illiterate or so for such a misunderstanding to take place at all. So I assume they know full well what they're doing and because of what.

Why they do it instead of the Christians in the west is more likely to be because of sociological reasons and not of religions reasons. If you put Christians living like Afghans or Pakistanis or Pestinians - give them a bible but they're not gonna read it for long.

A Muslim is one who had entered into a contract with Allah to comply with the covenanted terms as in the Quran.

There are many cases of unradicalization of terrorists and others who had committed evil and violent acts [this is good for humanity], but that do not absolve the existence of the evil and violent commands in the Quran and Islam.

With the inherent desperation related to soteriology, it is likely more are radicalized in a range of ways than those who had been unradicalized.

 

[Joyousperson]

This is true, but those examples are of political governments whose leaders base their laws on local interpretations of the Qur'an and haddiths. These rules and laws of course vary from culture to culture and will often contradict what Islam teaches, but I think you would agree that non-Muslims living in western countries have nothing to fear when it comes to Shari'a.

Again your thinking is narrow and selfish.

How come you are not compassionate to all the minorities living in majority Muslim countries who are badly effected by Sharia Laws.

Here is an elderly Christian canned under Sharia Law.
Watch: Christian women caned for selling alcohol in Indonesia

As for Western Countries, Sharia Law will pervade slowly into the rights of those in Western countries like the 'boiling frog' analogy.

At present the effects of Sharia Laws are already impacting those in the Western countries. Note the 'Sharia Zones' imposed by Muslims in Europe and UK.
Even in the US and UK, the eating of pork and certain symbols of crosses are restraint by Muslim apologists pandering and appeasing to Muslims within the shade of Sharia Laws.

Schools have been told that they should ban crosses and crucifixes, but allow Muslim children to wear symbols, even though they are not compulsory.
School ban for crosses but not Muslim lockets​

 

[JosephZ]

Note when you state I am legitimizing what the extremists are doing, meant I am endorsing, condoning and agreeing with their evil acts. That is a lie.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying? I have made it perfectly clear to you what you are legitimizing.

Whether you realize it or not, you are legitimizing extremists and their perverted teachings by equating extremism with the religion of Islam. I hope you will take a pause and enroll in some courses on Islamic Studies so you will have a better understanding of what Islam actually teaches. What you have been posting here comes straight from the mouths of Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists and it's counter productive in fighting against Islamic extremism.

Once again, I NEVER said you were legitimizing acts of Islamic terrorism, I said you are legitimizing extremists and their perverted teachings by equating extremism with the religion of Islam which is true.

Why do legitimize the teachings of extremists and push the extremist narrative on non-Muslims and the more 90% of Muslims who reject this teaching?

I have never once suggested that you endorse, condone, or agree with the evil acts that Islamic extremists carry out. What you are doing is legitimizing the extremists and their teachings. At the present time greater than 90% of the world's Muslims and most people in the world consider these extremists and their teachings to be illegitimate. What you are trying to convince people of is that the extremists are credible and their teachings are legitimate interpretations of Islam. Your approach is counterproductive in the fight against violent extremism.

Thus my proposal and solution is for all to recognize this fact and find solutions to resolve it.

Since you claimed to have taken the course I recommended to you offered by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism, why are you still blaming Islam and wanting to eliminate a religion rather than address the root causes violent extremism?

Having taken that course you should have learned that religion is rarely the root cause of violence and extremism and there are many other factors that go into the equation.

Countries that experience high levels of terrorism share one or more of the following characteristics: occupation, authoritarianism, repression, tyranny, and/or corruption. When it comes to terrorism and violent extremism, it's historical and political factors, not religious or even militant religious ideologies that are the primary driving forces. Rather than putting so much time and energy into trying to convince 1.8 billion Muslims and the rest of the world that their religion is to blame, I would suggest that you channel those efforts into addressing the political conditions and injustices that terrorist groups exploit instead.

I repeat this response from Setst;
setst RE: Islam is not defined by what individual Muslims may believe or not. Rather, Islam is founded on what the Qur'an and Muhammad actually taught.

If a person wants to gain a better understanding of what the Qur'an and Muhammad teaches, who would be the best source for them to turn to? Muslims who were born into Islam and have practiced this religion their entire lives and Islamic Scholars and clerics who have devoted their entire lives to knowing and understanding their religion; or non-Muslims on an online forum who use anti-Islamic propaganda sites to support their arguments? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.

If greater than 90% of the world's Muslims are interpreting the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad differently than you are along with every legitimate school that offers courses in Islamic Studies and Religious History, then it's a pretty safe bet that you are wrong in what you believe about Islam.

Note your 90% is contentious.

What you have been describing in every thread you have started is Wahhabism. This sect is found within the Salafi movement that fewer than 90% of the world's Muslims follow. There is no disputing that the extremist interpretation of Islam you are describing is rejected by greater than 90% of the world's Muslims today and always have been.

The genuine good Muslims are likely to be 20%. The evil prone Muslims are 20%.

I have no words for this assumption you have made.

I believe the majority of Muslims are not aware of the facts of Islam as in the 6236 verses of the Quran.

I'm certain that the majority of Muslims know more about Islam and what can be found in the Qur'an than you do.

Note this recent news re a very famous Bollywood actress; Muslim Bollywood actress Zaira Wasim, 18, has announced she will quit acting, saying that the profession "threatened" her relationship with her religion.
Indian actress quits Bollywood to 'follow faith'
Note this one example of the willingness to give up a potentially good career and earnings for religious sake to comply with the tenet of her religion to 'save' herself.

Where does it say this actress gave up her career to save herself? She is doing what many people who decide to dedicate their lives to their religion or to God do. Just because she gave everything up doesn't mean it was done in an attempt to gain salvation.

What the world need is ZERO Islamic related evil and violent acts. Because the root cause are the evil and violent elements in the Quran which is immutable, then the most effective solution in the long run is to wean off Islam to Christianity and other pacifist religions, spirituality, and the likes.

If 99% of the worlds Muslims are living in peace and harmony with their neighbors, once again, what leads you to believe Islam is the problem? Like I have said, Muslims don't interpret the Qur'an the way you do. I have also shown you in other threads where research has shown that the more religious a person is, the less prone they are to becoming involved in violent extremism.

The problem of the evil and violence of Islam is not confined to terrorism but to the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by Muslims in the name of religion. Are you aware of extent of these evil and violent acts?

Umm yes, don't you remember where I have responded to you about this in other threads? Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims ; Islam - Sri Lankan Massacre Revenge ; and in this post here I.S.I.S has Nothing to Do With Islam?

Note the above facts and don't forget about them.

Those are not facts, those are your opinions based on faulty logic.

It a silly and stupid counter to the argument and besides it is none of your business that I had posted in various forums. [note I am seldom active in more than one site] It is a wise intellectual effective strategy to gather different views from a larger sample.

That's the thing, you aren't gathering different views, you are pushing your baseless theories on people and when they disagree with you, you insult them by calling them ignorant, clueless, or stupid. You are not open to learning or hearing any other point of view that goes against your own even when it comes from experts in the fields of psychology, terrorism/counter terrorism, and Islam.

As for what you post on other forums as being none of my business, I only discovered your obsession when I was trying to find out where your wild claims were coming from. Usually you can copy a sentence from a person's post and find out the source for their information through a google search. When I took some of your statistics and did a search, these are some of the hits I got.

Literally everything you have shared on this forum can be found word for word on many others. Same titles, same content. When I clicked on some of these topics I found people in good faith from all kinds of backgrounds trying to teach you where you are in error, and just like here, you reject them and often insult them. Even some of your responses to me appear to be copied and pasted from responses you gave to people on other forums. This is why I questioned you about what you are hoping to accomplish and what your agenda is.

Note your sticking to one forum has produced a narrow, constricted and constipated thinking like what you are expressing at the moment.

My knowledge and perspective on this subject doesn't come from this forum, it comes from real life experience, traveling the world, and getting my education from multiple sources over a period of more than three decades.

 

[Yytz6]

Note this recent news re a very famous Bollywood actress;

Muslim Bollywood actress Zaira Wasim, 18, has announced she will quit acting, saying that the profession "threatened" her relationship with her religion.
Indian actress quits Bollywood to 'follow faith'​

Note this one example of the willingness to give up a potentially good career and earnings for religious sake to comply with the tenet of her religion to 'save' herself.
Out of the 1.6 billion there will be SOME who will get more zealous and comply or be compelled to adopt those verses which are evil and violent to get a greater assurance of being 'saved'.

You think she's evil? Don't the Christians agree that the film industry is 'evil' so to speak - and all the American parents are hysterical over violence in movies and video games affecting their children. Psychologists agree that kids should be protected from such influence. But they are generally not.

 

[JosephZ]

Again your thinking is narrow and selfish. How come you are not compassionate to all the minorities living in majority Muslim countries who are badly effected by Sharia Laws.

I am and you know this already.

Countries like Brunei that impose the death penalty for homosexuals need more attention brought to them and there should be a global effort to push them to change their barbaric laws.

I am strongly against the barbaric practices imposed by the governments that impose them as are many of the Muslims that live in those countries. Those laws are based on the hard-line Wahhabi interpretation of Shar'ia.

Opening up another thread doesn't change my position on the issues of discussion.

As for Western Countries, Sharia Law will pervade slowly into the rights of those in Western countries like the 'boiling frog' analogy.

Western countries would have to have a much larger Muslim population than they do now for their laws to be negatively influenced by Shari'a and we are centuries away from any western country even approaching a Muslim majority status if it were to ever occur at all.

At present the effects of Sharia Laws are already impacting those in the Western countries. Note the 'Sharia Zones' imposed by Muslims in Europe and UK.

Examples of these "Shari'a Zones" please.

Even in the US and UK, the eating of pork and certain symbols of crosses are restraint by Muslim apologists pandering and appeasing to Muslims within the shade of Sharia Laws. Schools have been told that they should ban crosses and crucifixes, but allow Muslim children to wear symbols, even though they are not compulsory.
School ban for crosses but not Muslim lockets

Since this isn't an example of Muslims trying to impose Shari'a on non-Muslims, what's the point of using this as an example to show that Islam is somehow a threat?

 

[Joyousperson]

Why are you having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying? I have made it perfectly clear to you what you are legitimizing.

I have never once suggested that you endorse, condone, or agree with the evil acts that Islamic extremists carry out. What you are doing is legitimizing the extremists and their teachings. At the present time greater than 90% of the world's Muslims and most people in the world consider these extremists and their teachings to be illegitimate. What you are trying to convince people of is that the extremists are credible and their teachings are legitimate interpretations of Islam. Your approach is counterproductive in the fight against violent extremism.

You are wrong in stating greater than 90% of Muslims do not agree with the views of the extremists. Where is your evidence to that?

"JZ: What you are doing is legitimizing the extremists and their teachings."​

The above sense can be very misleading.
There is a difference between me stating 'the extremists believe their acts are legitimate in accordance to Allah's commands' and 'you are legitimizing the extremists and their teachings.'

I have already demonstrated why the acts carry out as a religious duty by those evil prone Muslims [extremists and others] are legitimate in accordance to Allah's commands as in the Quran.
What I have done is to present the truths and facts, not "legitimizing" anything in this case.

Since you claimed to have taken the course I recommended to you offered by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism, why are you still blaming Islam and wanting to eliminate a religion rather than address the root causes violent extremism?

I don't agree with the SMART's views in totality. They did not dig deep enough.
The SMART course identified the root cause as coming from "Islamism' [related to non state actors] which as with Bale's view, is an inevitable part of Islam.
I have demonstrated that part of Islam which inspired the evil and violent acts by the evil prone Muslims is very malignant. When it is malignant like cancer cells, the most assured solution is to get rid of it totally.

Having taken that course you should have learned that religion is rarely the root cause of violence and extremism and there are many other factors that go into the equation.

You are deflecting.
The SMART course address all types of terrorism which is not the focus of our discussion here.
To be effective, we need to identify the various types of terrorism and identify the ultimate root cause.
One of the major type of terrorism is the type committed by Muslims. The ultimate root cause of such Islamic-related terrorism is the ideology of Islam.

You should have also have read the point, where the ideology of Islam is one of the reason for Muslim-related terrorism. But the problem is they never refer to the details and essence of the ideology of Islam. In the course and Jeffery Bale's articles and books, no one refer to the verses in the Quran.

Countries that experience high levels of terrorism share one or more of the following characteristics: occupation, authoritarianism, repression, tyranny, and/or corruption. When it comes to terrorism and violent extremism, it's historical and political factors, not religious or even militant religious ideologies that are the primary driving forces. Rather than putting so much time and energy into trying to convince 1.8 billion Muslims and the rest of the world that their religion is to blame, I would suggest that you channel those efforts into addressing the political conditions and injustices that terrorist groups exploit instead.

You missed out the 'ideological' factor of 'truth' and 'identity' which the religious terrorists banked on.
I say the above view is based on ignorance of the most critical characteristics that underlie the above in the case of religious evil and violence, i.e. the soteriological factors which is made worst by evil and violent elements condoned by Allah.

As I had stated my focus is not on terrorism alone but the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims as compelled by the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam driven by soteriological impulses.

In another perspective, terrorism related to Islam and Muslims need to view with seriousness due to the very heavy weightage of the possibilities of the extermination of the human species if terrorist groups were to get access to WMDs. The known terrorists groups has already voice their intention to resort to WMDs strategies.

If a person wants to gain a better understanding of what the Qur'an and Muhammad teaches, who would be the best source for them to turn to? Muslims who were born into Islam and have practiced this religion their entire lives and Islamic Scholars and clerics who have devoted their entire lives to knowing and understanding their religion; or non-Muslims on an online forum who use anti-Islamic propaganda sites to support their arguments? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.

If greater than 90% of the world's Muslims are interpreting the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad differently than you are along with every legitimate school that offers courses in Islamic Studies and Religious History, then it's a pretty safe bet that you are wrong in what you believe about Islam.

The masses and the experts can be wrong.
The best source to understand Islam is via the words of Allah - the ultimate authority on Islam. The words of Allah in this case are in the 6236 verses of the Quran.

Therefore to get to the truths of Islam, we cannot rely on the experts and the masses but must have the gumption to question their views against the truth of Allah's words in the Quran.
To do so we must study the Quran thoroughly ourselves not depend totally on others.

What you have been describing in every thread you have started is Wahhabism. This sect is found within the Salafi movement that fewer than 90% of the world's Muslims follow. There is no disputing that the extremist interpretation of Islam you are describing is rejected by greater than 90% of the world's Muslims today and always have been.

90% again? Where is the evidence?

What I have been describing is What Allah asserted and meant in the Quran.
If it fits with Wahabism, Salafism, or whatever "ism" that is co-incidental. They are not the critical factors, but what Allah stated is that which matters.

I have no words for this assumption you have made.

I have already demonstrated to you the most likely validity of the 20% [estimated] of evil prone Muslims.
If you understand the principles of the Normal Distribution, then the opposite equivalent of evil, i.e. 'good' is likely to be also 20%.

I'm certain that the majority of Muslims know more about Islam and what can be found in the Qur'an than you do.

It is commonly understood, the majority of Muslims do not read the Quran but rather rely on their clerics.
Many who recite the Quran in Arabic also do not understand the Quran thoroughly.

Note it is not easy to understand the real context of the messed up order of the 114 Chapters of the Quran with 6236 verses and 77,449 words.
It took me 3 years of full time to infer the proper context and theme of the Quran by a detailed analysis of the 77,449 words and 6236 verses.

How many Muslims do you think would have done what I have done??
This is why I insist you lack intelligence on this issue.

Where does it say this actress gave up her career to save herself? She is doing what many people who decide to dedicate their lives to their religion or to God do. Just because she gave everything up doesn't mean it was done in an attempt to gain salvation.

That is the difficulty for many to understand the scenario.
Note 30% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are related to salvation [soteriology], thus salvation is critical to a Muslim.
But the impulse of salvation is activated very subliminal thus not a conscious thought.

If 99% of the worlds Muslims are living in peace and harmony with their neighbors, once again, what leads you to believe Islam is the problem? Like I have said, Muslims don't interpret the Qur'an the way you do. I have also shown you in other threads where research has shown that the more religious a person is, the less prone they are to becoming involved in violent extremism.

99%??? You got be more serious with this. Show me the evidence?

I have already demonstrated, to be more Islamic, a Muslim must comply with ALL the 6236 verses of the Quran which contain loads of evil and violent elements.
Therefore the more Islamic a Muslim is, the more evil and violent the Muslim will be.
That is very logical.

Those are not facts, those are your opinions based on faulty logic.

What I have stated is based on the arguments I have presented.
What you have done is simply waving off with your subjective opinion, thus lack intellectual integrity.

That's the thing, you aren't gathering different views, you are pushing your baseless theories on people and when they disagree with you, you insult them by calling them ignorant, clueless, or stupid. You are not open to learning or hearing any other point of view that goes against your own even when it comes from experts in the fields of psychology, terrorism/counter terrorism, and Islam.

Note 'ignorance' stupid [low IQ], clueless, are factual terms and not meant to be derogatory. My point of using those terms is to nudge the opponent to dig deeper and wider on the issue.

How can I agree with others if they are wrong and not based on the truths from a wider perspective.
Note I have never simply waived opinions like you and others, but have always provided evidence and arguments to support my views [including whatever is estimated].

As for what you post on other forums as being none of my business, I only discovered your obsession when I was trying to find out where your wild claims were coming from. Usually you can copy a sentence from a person's post and find out the source for their information through a google search. When I took some of your statistics and did a search, these are some of the hits I got.

View attachment 258934
Literally everything you have shared on this forum can be found word for word on many others. Same titles, same content. When I clicked on some of these topics I found people in good faith from all kinds of backgrounds trying to teach you where you are in error, and just like here, you reject them and often insult them. Even some of your responses to me appear to be copied and pasted from responses you gave to people on other forums. This is why I questioned you about what you are hoping to accomplish and what your agenda is.

As I had stated my forte is Philosophy, where I am a reasonable expert.
It is from there that I came over here to gather more views on 'Who is a Christian' from a Christians in a Christian site.
You will note in the Philosophy Forum I discussed more of various non-Islamic issues than Islamic issues.

It is true, many had complained I accused them of being narrow and shallow minded but that is a fact relative to the rational and objective arguments I have posted in those forums.

Btw, I have been seeking knowledge for a long time and I ensures I have covered whatever holes there are my knowledge base. This is why I am confident when I say the opponent is ignorant, lack width and depth in his/her knowledge base. This is evident from my suggestions that they look into various knowledge they have missed out and present better arguments than throwing opinions.
Note you suggested the SMART course and I went into it, gathered some knowledge but found their knowledge-base is not deep and wide enough.

The SMART approach is empirically-based on data collected from observations and they acknowledge there is a weakness to this. But they were not able to dig deeper and wider to get to the proximate and ultimate root causes.

Btw, from what I have learned from the SMART course, I note you are merely relying on their superficial factors but not the deeper* causes highlighted in the videos and articles. *Deep but not deep enough relative to what I know. Suggest you go through Module 5 again and note the more intricate factors presented.

My knowledge and perspective on this subject doesn't come from this forum, it comes from real life experience, traveling the world, and getting my education from multiple sources over a period of more than three decades.

You seem to appreciate the need for a wider experience and views, so why are you complaining about my discussion in various sites to gather wider views??

You think you have a wider view, but in reality that is not wide enough for this discussion and definitely not deep enough.
For a start, i would suggest you get more familiar with Philosophy-proper as a foundation for your knowledge base.

As I see it, re epistemology and sound knowledge -without a solid Philosophy base, you are like a drowning man struggling to grab at anything to survive.

 

[Joyousperson]

I am and you know this already.

View attachment 258937


Opening up another thread doesn't change my position on the issues of discussion.

Note those countries who installed 'Sharia Laws' do not claim it has anything to do with 'Wahabbism' nor Salafism. That is only your very narrow thinking.
They claimed it is the implementation of Allah's Laws as per the Quran and the Ahadith of Islam.
WHO ARE YOU to claim otherwise?

Fundamentally there is one universal Islam, i.e. the Islam of Allah as represented in the 6236 verses of the Quran and for some is supported by the Ahadith.

You may have condemned the acts of IS and other terrorist groups [which any normal human being would have done] but you are so ignorant to insist their evil and violent acts has nothing to do with Islam in general.
In addition, you do not understand the seriousness of the wider range of the evil and violent acts of Muslims in general acting upon the words of Allah.

Western countries would have to have a much larger Muslim population than they do now for their laws to be negatively influenced by Shari'a and we are centuries away from any western country even approaching a Muslim majority status if it were to ever occur at all.

Do you understand the 'boiling frog' scenario where the threats creep in very slowly until it is terminal and that would be too late to take preventive steps.
To resolve and prevent any problem before it is too late, we need to nip the problem at its roots.

Examples of these "Shari'a Zones" please.

There was already many attempts to set up such zones but they were eliminated by the authorities.
Point is there is the inherent intention of these Muslims and given the opportunity they will set up Sharia Zones where possible.
This zeal is driven by the desperation for salvation [subiminally].

Since this isn't an example of Muslims trying to impose Shari'a on non-Muslims, what's the point of using this as an example to show that Islam is somehow a threat?

Note the "boiling frog" example I mentioned above.

The impact of Sharia Law is merely on factor within the tons of other critical threats from the ideology of Islam culminating to the critical potential threat of an WMD armagedon. If we do not nip this potential at the bud, it would be too late when the WMDs are set off by state and non-state terrorists.

 

[Joyousperson]

Where does it say this actress gave up her career to save herself? She is doing what many people who decide to dedicate their lives to their religion or to God do. Just because she gave everything up doesn't mean it was done in an attempt to gain salvation.

This is where you are ignorant of and do not have the depth and width in understanding human nature.

That is the difficulty for many to understand the scenario.
Note 30% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are related to salvation [soteriology], thus salvation is critical to a Muslim.
But the impulse of salvation is activated very subliminally thus not a conscious thought.

Here is an analogy to understand the width and depth of an essential root;

1. The typical males and females are naturally inclined to groom themselves to look nice and presentable.
2. They do it is a wide variety of ways.
3. This is to the attract the opposite sex,
4. -to facilitate the process of mating
5. -to produce the next generation
6. -to ensure the preservation of the species.
​

Besides grooming, the males and females acts and think in a wide range of manners to attract the opposite sex to serve the ultimate purpose of 6.

The above is the same for the majority of animals.

In the above you will note the depth of linking the superficial acts of the person to the ultimate purpose of preservation of the species.
Such superficial acts can be merely a person combing and maintaining their hair nicely.
The majority of the ignorant will not be able to dive in to link that particular act to the preservation of the species.

It is the same with acts [good and evil] related to religion.
Thus the superficial act of the actress giving up her career can be traced to deeper roots like the above, to very deeper religious, existential roots and the preservation of the species.

It is the same with the evil prone Muslims being influenced by the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam to kill non-Muslims, and these outer acts can be traced to the very deep rooted causes within the psyche of the believers.

I have a detailed flowchart on this to track to the root cause. I won't go into the details here and you can think hard and deep into this to get to the ultimate root causes.

 

[setst777]

This is where you are ignorant of and do not have the depth and width in understanding human nature.

That is the difficulty for many to understand the scenario.
Note 30% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are related to salvation [soteriology], thus salvation is critical to a Muslim.
But the impulse of salvation is activated very subliminally thus not a conscious thought.

Here is an analogy to understand the width and depth of an essential root;

1. The typical males and females are naturally inclined to groom themselves to look nice and presentable.
2. They do it is a wide variety of ways.
3. This is to the attract the opposite sex,
4. -to facilitate the process of mating
5. -to produce the next generation
6. -to ensure the preservation of the species.
​

Besides grooming, the males and females acts and think in a wide range of manners to attract the opposite sex to serve the ultimate purpose of 6.

The above is the same for the majority of animals.

In the above you will note the depth of linking the superficial acts of the person to the ultimate purpose of preservation of the species.
Such superficial acts can be merely a person combing and maintaining their hair nicely.
The majority of the ignorant will not be able to dive in to link that particular act to the preservation of the species.

It is the same with acts [good and evil] related to religion.
Thus the superficial act of the actress giving up her career can be traced to deeper roots like the above, to very deeper religious, existential roots and the preservation of the species.

It is the same with the evil prone Muslims being influenced by the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam to kill non-Muslims, and these outer acts can be traced to the very deep rooted causes within the psyche of the believers.

I have a detailed flowchart on this to track to the root cause. I won't go into the details here and you can think hard and deep into this to get to the ultimate root causes.

Islamic death threats are fairly common against those who do not conform to Islamic Sharia Law

Islamists Smear Egyptian Actress for Removing Hijab

Social media debate over Indian actress who quit for Islam - News Need News

Death threat won't stop me being Muslim and wearing bikinis, says Saira Khan

Muslim woman receives death threats after leading prayers in Kerala

A Muslim woman reportedly received death threats for exposing her stomach on Instagram

 

[JosephZ]

You are wrong in stating greater than 90% of Muslims do not agree with the views of the extremists. Where is your evidence to that?

90% again? Where is the evidence?

As I had stated my focus is not on terrorism alone but the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by evil prone Muslims as compelled by the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam driven by soteriological impulses.

Note those countries who installed 'Sharia Laws' do not claim it has anything to do with 'Wahabbism' nor Salafism. That is only your very narrow thinking.

99%??? You got be more serious with this. Show me the evidence?

Everything above was extensively covered in this thread of the same title Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims There was plenty of supporting evidence given there, however; regardless of the evidence or its source you rejected it, therefore; I see no need to copy and paste my responses from there to further entertain you in this thread. You can always go back and read what I posted in the other thread if you desire to see how I have already responded to your above questions and comments.

There is a difference between me stating 'the extremists believe their acts are legitimate in accordance to Allah's commands' and 'you are legitimizing the extremists and their teachings.' I have already demonstrated why the acts carry out as a religious duty by those evil prone Muslims [extremists and others] are legitimate in accordance to Allah's commands as in the Quran. What I have done is to present the truths and facts, not "legitimizing" anything in this case.

If you believe that Islam teaches the same thing as what extremists teach and then go on multiple forums pushing the narrative that the extremist are closer to being true Muslims and are correct in their interpretation of the Qur'an, then you are by definition legitimizing the extremists and their teachings.

You are deflecting.
The SMART course address all types of terrorism which is not the focus of our discussion here.
To be effective, we need to identify the various types of terrorism and identify the ultimate root cause. One of the major type of terrorism is the type committed by Muslims.

You should have learned from the course that the religion of Islam is not at the root of Islamic extremism/terrorism.

You should have also have read the point, where the ideology of Islam is one of the reason for Muslim-related terrorism. But the problem is they never refer to the details and essence of the ideology of Islam. In the course and Jeffery Bale's articles and books, no one refer to the verses in the Quran.

That would be because study after study including interviews with countless Islamic extremists has shown that the religion of Islam is not the root cause of Islamic extremism.

The masses and the experts can be wrong.

Yes, but in this case the masses and the experts have indisputable evidence on their side.

Therefore to get to the truths of Islam, we cannot rely on the experts and the masses but must have the gumption to question their views against the truth of Allah's words in the Quran. To do so we must study the Quran thoroughly ourselves not depend totally on others.

How many times do I have to tell you this? My knowledge of Islam doesn't come only from others, I have studied the Qur'an thoroughly. In fact I had read it in its entirety before you were 11 years old and had already completed courses in Islamic Studies and lived in a majority Muslim country by the time you were 12. My education, world travels and experiences continued until now and for the past 7+ years I've been serving as a missionary in Muslim communities primarily in Mindanao (Although this has extended into Malaysia and Indonesia from time to time) and living in a majority Muslim village in Davao City. I'm certain that I have talked face to face with more Muslims about their religion and what they believe in the past month alone than you have your entire life. Based on that, it's easy for me to conclude that you have gotten all of your education on Islam from the internet and anti-Islamic propaganda sites. This can be confirmed by the fact that you use many of the more notorious anti-propaganda sites and anti-propagandists for sources to support your position rather than scholarly articles and experts in the fields of Islamic Studies, history, terrorism, and violent extremism.

What I have stated is based on the arguments I have presented.
What you have done is simply waving off with your subjective opinion, thus lack intellectual integrity.

In addition to my personal knowledge on this subject I have provided supporting evidence from several studies and experts in the fields of Islamic Studies, history, terrorism, and violent extremism. You have rejected them all.

Note 'ignorance' stupid [low IQ], clueless, are factual terms and not meant to be derogatory. My point of using those terms is to nudge the opponent to dig deeper and wider on the issue. How can I agree with others if they are wrong and not based on the truths from a wider perspective.

It is true, many had complained I accused them of being narrow and shallow minded but that is a fact relative to the rational and objective arguments I have posted in those forums.

I have been seeking knowledge for a long time and I ensures I have covered whatever holes there are my knowledge base. This is why I am confident when I say the opponent is ignorant, lack width and depth in his/her knowledge base. This is evident from my suggestions that they look into various knowledge they have missed out and present better arguments than throwing opinions.

Dunning–Kruger effect?

from what I have learned from the SMART course, I note you are merely relying on their superficial factors but not the deeper* causes highlighted in the videos and articles. *Deep but not deep enough relative to what I know. Suggest you go through Module 5 again and note the more intricate factors presented.

That course isn't the only one I have taken. I have taken many courses on terrorism and violent extremism from multiple sources over the years and have attended several forums addressing these issues. I only recommended that course to you because it's free and available online. I'm in no way relying on this single source to reach the conclusions I have on violent extremism.

You seem to appreciate the need for a wider experience and views, so why are you complaining about my discussion in various sites to gather wider views??

Why am I complaining? It's because you don't care about the views of others. What's worse is you keep copying and pasting this nonsense on forum after forum along with links to anti-Islamic propaganda sites. What you are doing is counter productive to combating Islamic extremism. It also creates additional confusion among those who have little knowledge of the religion of Islam and further division between non-Muslims and Muslims. What you are doing on this forum and many others serves no good purpose whatsoever.

There was already many attempts to set up such zones but they were eliminated by the authorities. Point is there is the inherent intention of these Muslims and given the opportunity they will set up Sharia Zones where possible.
This zeal is driven by the desperation for salvation [subiminally].

Is this the best you can do? The so called "Shari'a Zones" in that video were started by a hand full of extremists and immediately rejected by the Muslim community. It was Muslims that helped rid the streets of these wackos. There hasn't been a serious attempt by Muslims anywhere in Europe to set up "Shari'a Zones" and if there ever was, they would be immediately dealt with by the entire community both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

This is where you are ignorant of and do not have the depth and width in understanding human nature. That is the difficulty for many to understand the scenario... Thus the superficial act of the actress giving up her career can be traced to deeper roots like the above, to very deeper religious, existential roots and the preservation of the species.

I'm pretty certain that the complex reasoning you gave has nothing at all to do with what led this actress to sacrifice her career.

 

[Joyousperson]

Everything above was extensively covered in this thread of the same title Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims There was plenty of supporting evidence given there, however; regardless of the evidence or its source you rejected it, therefore; I see no need to copy and paste my responses from there to further entertain you in this thread. You can always go back and read what I posted in the other thread if you desire to see how I have already responded to your above questions and comments.

You claimed 99% of Muslims know "what is Islam" correctly in accordance to Allah's message.
Your previous arguments do not support your 99% or 90% thesis at all.
I am asking for new and additional supporting arguments and evidence.

Note some views here;
What percentage of Muslims has read the entire Quran?
Here is one comment;

Almost all Muslims have recited the Quran in Arabic.
However the sad part is that 99 percent have not read the translation in their own language to understand what it says.
https://www.quora.com/What-percenta...lim-religious-authorities-say-it-must-be-read​

Almost all Muslims will say they have read the Quran, probably referring to the verses when they prayed.

Most of the findings from google do not convince me 99% of all Muslim read the Quran seriously in their own language to understand the Quran thoroughly.

Here is one findings from PEW research;
Commitment to Islam

It is obvious from the research a large % never read the Quran.

A reasonable % is claimed to have read and listen the Quran but not everyday. A % do read the Quran everyday. Even then, I don't believe they studied the Quran and understand the message therein thoroughly.

If you believe that Islam teaches the same thing as what extremists teach and then go on multiple forums pushing the narrative that the extremist are closer to being true Muslims and are correct in their interpretation of the Qur'an, then you are by definition legitimizing the extremists and their teachings.

I don't agree with the usage of 'legitimizing.'
Don't you think it is something positive if I promote the view of 'Do Not Bash Muslims' to all of humanity.

The truth will and must always prevail. Show me where I have been false in presenting those mentioned extremists do not comply with the commands in the Quran than the 'moderate' Muslims.

Ultimately, WHO ARE YOU, me or others to judge whether they are right or wrong in terms of those contentious verses.

You should have learned from the course that the religion of Islam is not at the root of Islamic extremism/terrorism.

Taking up the course does not mean I must believe in everything that is presented to me in the course.
The Course assumed the majority practice Islam-proper and the extremist practice Islam but a perverted form of islam, i.e. Islamism.
But they are wrong here because they did not dig deep enough to understand the ideology of Islam and its true inherent ethos of evil and violence.

From what you are posting, I don't see you have a good grasp of the principles within the course. It is obvious you are very bias thus missed out one the main principles.

In Module 2;

2.B: Bill Braniff (University of Maryland),
i. "Introduction to Radicalization" & ii. "Ideology"

Dr. Neumann is a star researcher and he's described these key ingredients of Radicalization as follows.
· Grievance,
· Ideology and
· Mobilization.

If it's a religious ideology, they have this exclusive knowledge to instill God's will on Earth.
Ideology is given a lot of attention in terrorism studies and ideology is a set of beliefs that describes the world.
Ideologies are important for several reasons.

First, they can help to polarize society.

To create an us versus them mentality, or an in-group and an out-group mentality.
And that can help recruitment and radicalization.
That can also help mobilization of resources for a terrorist organization that seeks to advance that ideology.
Oftentimes describes what's wrong with the world, as well as, what the world is supposed to look like, but most importantly it [ideology] provides a blueprint for action so that you can make the world right.

So ideologies are not just a set of descriptive ideas, but they're also a set of ideas that foster action.​

What is lacking in the course is the detailed research into the specific ideology that drove terrorists into action. In the case of evil and violent acts committed by certain Muslims, the ideology is from the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
In this case the researchers did not dig deep into the ideology of Islam, i.e. the 6,236 verses [& Ahadith] for the set of ideas that triggered the Islamic terrorists to get into action in killing non-Muslims and committing other evil acts.

I suggested you go through the whole course again, if not at least module 5 to understand what you have missed out or are lacking.

That would be because study after study including interviews with countless Islamic extremists has shown that the religion of Islam is not the root cause of Islamic extremism.

You are merely making baseless sweeping statements.

That most Islamic extremists quote verses from the Quran [the core of Islam] to justify their acts as a religious duty is proof there is something in the religion that drove them to do the killings. If the individual Muslim do not quote the Quran directly they are influenced by their leaders who are well versed in the Quran, e.g. Osama bin Laden, Al Bagdadi, and others.

Yes, but in this case the masses and the experts have indisputable evidence on their side.

What are the evidence.
Note I have demonstrated your 99% claim that all Muslims are well verse and understood the Quran thoroughly is wrong, i.e. very wrong.

How many times do I have to tell you this? My knowledge of Islam doesn't come only from others, I have studied the Qur'an thoroughly. In fact I had read it in its entirety before you were 11 years old and had already completed courses in Islamic Studies and lived in a majority Muslim country by the time you were 12. My education, world travels and experiences continued until now and for the past 7+ years I've been serving as a missionary in Muslim communities primarily in Mindanao (Although this has extended into Malaysia and Indonesia from time to time) and living in a majority Muslim village in Davao City. I'm certain that I have talked face to face with more Muslims about their religion and what they believe in the past month alone than you have your entire life. Based on that, it's easy for me to conclude that you have gotten all of your education on Islam from the internet and anti-Islamic propaganda sites. This can be confirmed by the fact that you use many of the more notorious anti-propaganda sites and anti-propagandists for sources to support your position rather than scholarly articles and experts in the fields of Islamic Studies, history, terrorism, and violent extremism.

I am aware you claimed to have studied the Quran personally and from external sources.
But from you have posted, you have not dug into the depth of Islam, i.e. the 6236 verses of the Quran.

To go a bit deeper I would suggest you read this very famous book from a thematic perspective,

In the Ethico-Religious Concepts in the Qur'án by Toshihiko Izutsu analyzes the guiding spirit of the Islamic moral code, the basic ethical relationship of man to God. Izutsu asserts that, according to the Qur'anic conception, God is of an ethical nature and acts upon man in an ethical way. The resulting implications for man are enormous, requiring devotion not merely to God but to living one's life ethically. Izutsu shows that for the Qur'an our ethical response to God's actions is religion itself; it is at the same time both ethics and religion. Izutsu explores these themes by employing ethnolinguistics, a theory of the interrelations between linguistic cultural patterns, to analyse the semantic structure of major concepts in the Quar'an. Islam, which arose in the seventh century, represents one of the most sweeping religious reforms ever to appear in the East. The Quar'an shows in vividly concrete terms how time-honoured tribal norms came into bloody conflict with new ideals of life, and finally yielded to the rising power. This transitional epoch is of particular importance in the whole of Islamic thought, a time during which the key terms of a traditionally fixed system of values were transformed in their connotative structure, modified in their combinations, and finally integrated into an entirely different system. Originally published in 1959 as The Structure of the Ethical Terms in the Koran.
Ethico-Religious Concepts in the Qur'an​

Note the interesting feature of Google-Books where there is a list of common terms are listed [in the lower part] in corresponding larger fonts, i.e. believe, God, Islam, Kufr, Kafir, days of judgment, Jahiliyah, god fearing, Muslims, Quran, polytheism, Sfirah, taqwa -they are the critical terms within the ideology of Islam. As I had been pointing out, note the focus on non-Muslims [re Kafir, jahiliyah] as a threat to the religion of Islam, thus warranting actions to eliminate this threat to secure the Muslims' eschatological status.

I have already stated my approach to understanding Islam and the Quran is via my own personal research and detailed analysis supported by external sources.

In addition to my personal knowledge on this subject I have provided supporting evidence from several studies and experts in the fields of Islamic Studies, history, terrorism, and violent extremism. You have rejected them all.

These are not deep enough.

Dunning–Kruger effect?

My views are supported by evidence and argument. All you need to do is to prove them wrong. I will be very pleased if you can prove any wrong, then I would have gain new correct knowledge.
If I state, 1 + 1 = 2, that is the truth, any claims re attitude is immaterial;.

That course isn't the only one I have taken. I have taken many courses on terrorism and violent extremism from multiple sources over the years and have attended several forums addressing these issues. I only recommended that course to you because it's free and available online. I'm in no way relying on this single source to reach the conclusions I have on violent extremism.

Regardless of what you read or courses attended, I can only judge you based on what you have posted here which at present is very shallow and narrow.

Why am I complaining? It's because you don't care about the views of others. What's worse is you keep copying and pasting this nonsense on forum after forum along with links to anti-Islamic propaganda sites. What you are doing is counter productive to combating Islamic extremism. It also creates additional confusion among those who have little knowledge of the religion of Islam and further division between non-Muslims and Muslims. What you are doing on this forum and many others serves no good purpose whatsoever.

Note what I have posted is objective and any one can agree and argue against it based on the arguments and evidence I have provided.

I believe I am contributing to humanity's well being by presenting the truths of Islam-proper with arguments and evidences.
Are you complaining I should not promote the theme 'Do not Bash Muslims' to the rest of the world?

Is this the best you can do? The so called "Shari'a Zones" in that video were started by a hand full of extremists and immediately rejected by the Muslim community. It was Muslims that helped rid the streets of these wackos. There hasn't been a serious attempt by Muslims anywhere in Europe to set up "Shari'a Zones" and if there ever was, they would be immediately dealt with by the entire community both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

What is real and critical here is the intent as driven by the ideology of Islam.
Those from the pool of 320 Muslims will strike whenever there is an opportunity and power for them to impose Sharia Laws on everyone to assure their own eschatological needs.
This is what IS did with the Caliphate in Syria-Iraq when there was a political weakness.
The fact is the ideology of Islam in combination with the pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims are an eternal potential awaiting to strike Sharia Laws on all given the opportunity.
With political power, many Muslim majority countries has already installed Sharia Law and imposed it on non-Muslims.

I'm pretty certain that the complex reasoning you gave has nothing at all to do with what led this actress to sacrifice her career.

I have raised the term 'subliminal' in many occassion.
Are you aware of subliminal advertising, where the customer is influenced by the advertiser to choose their goods over the competitor, with the buyer thinking s/he is making his/her own choice.

I will talk about the modern concept of the unconscious, and how the way we experience the world is largely driven by the mind’s subliminal processes.
Subliminal Effects​

Such subliminal effects are very prevalent in choice and decision-making related to religious matters compelled by eschatological drives. E.g. the majority of female Muslims think it is their choice to wear the hijab, but that is not the case, where they have been zombified by the subliminal effects deep down their conscious mind to meet their eschatological needs.
Note I have done a lot of research into this subject.

 

[setst777]

Everything above was extensively covered in this thread of the same title Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims There was plenty of supporting evidence given there, however; regardless of the evidence or its source you rejected it, therefore; I see no need to copy and paste my responses from there to further entertain you in this thread. You can always go back and read what I posted in the other thread if you desire to see how I have already responded to your above questions and comments.


If you believe that Islam teaches the same thing as what extremists teach and then go on multiple forums pushing the narrative that the extremist are closer to being true Muslims and are correct in their interpretation of the Qur'an, then you are by definition legitimizing the extremists and their teachings.

You should have learned from the course that the religion of Islam is not at the root of Islamic extremism/terrorism.

That would be because study after study including interviews with countless Islamic extremists has shown that the religion of Islam is not the root cause of Islamic extremism.

Yes, but in this case the masses and the experts have indisputable evidence on their side.

How many times do I have to tell you this? My knowledge of Islam doesn't come only from others, I have studied the Qur'an thoroughly. In fact I had read it in its entirety before you were 11 years old and had already completed courses in Islamic Studies and lived in a majority Muslim country by the time you were 12. My education, world travels and experiences continued until now and for the past 7+ years I've been serving as a missionary in Muslim communities primarily in Mindanao (Although this has extended into Malaysia and Indonesia from time to time) and living in a majority Muslim village in Davao City. I'm certain that I have talked face to face with more Muslims about their religion and what they believe in the past month alone than you have your entire life. Based on that, it's easy for me to conclude that you have gotten all of your education on Islam from the internet and anti-Islamic propaganda sites. This can be confirmed by the fact that you use many of the more notorious anti-propaganda sites and anti-propagandists for sources to support your position rather than scholarly articles and experts in the fields of Islamic Studies, history, terrorism, and violent extremism.

In addition to my personal knowledge on this subject I have provided supporting evidence from several studies and experts in the fields of Islamic Studies, history, terrorism, and violent extremism. You have rejected them all.

Dunning–Kruger effect?

That course isn't the only one I have taken. I have taken many courses on terrorism and violent extremism from multiple sources over the years and have attended several forums addressing these issues. I only recommended that course to you because it's free and available online. I'm in no way relying on this single source to reach the conclusions I have on violent extremism.

Why am I complaining? It's because you don't care about the views of others. What's worse is you keep copying and pasting this nonsense on forum after forum along with links to anti-Islamic propaganda sites. What you are doing is counter productive to combating Islamic extremism. It also creates additional confusion among those who have little knowledge of the religion of Islam and further division between non-Muslims and Muslims. What you are doing on this forum and many others serves no good purpose whatsoever.

Is this the best you can do? The so called "Shari'a Zones" in that video were started by a hand full of extremists and immediately rejected by the Muslim community. It was Muslims that helped rid the streets of these wackos. There hasn't been a serious attempt by Muslims anywhere in Europe to set up "Shari'a Zones" and if there ever was, they would be immediately dealt with by the entire community both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

I'm pretty certain that the complex reasoning you gave has nothing at all to do with what led this actress to sacrifice her career.

Hi Joseph,

You wrote something that bothered me enough to respond, because you have repeated this before...
<<
How many times do I have to tell you this? My knowledge of Islam doesn't come only from others, I have studied the Qur'an thoroughly.
>>

setst RE: Your knowledge of Islam, from what you have written about it so far, is very limited. In fact, you sound like those Muslims who use Taqyah, quoting only those earlier Quran Mecca verses, have completely disregard the later commands of Allah and Muhammad.

It is obvious why you, and also western leaders and scholars, so confused, ignorant, and naive regarding Islam...

You have been naively led by Islamic scholars in the West who have effectively used Taqyah on you, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

If REALLY you look at the Qur’an, you’ll find:

1) verses revealed at Mecca (bits and pieces from Judeo/Christian and Pagan lore and from the Bible and many other sources;

2) verses from Medina (a manual for totalitarian control, subjugation, warfare, and world conquest).

3) Mecca and 2 Medina are intermingled, as the Qur’an is not printed in chronological order but rather in order of longest-to-shortest chapters.

If all its verses are analyzed and quantified, however, you’ll find that the vast majority of the Qur’an’s contents – and even more of its companion books, the Hadith and the Sira, which clarify any ambiguities found in the Qur’an, are clearly about totalitarian control and war.

Ambiquities Clarified between Meccan and Madinan doctrine. . .

The Meccan verses are the earlier verses. These verses, which sound so religious, are lifted from the Bible and mythical tales. This is the Meccan period. The Meccan period verses have been replaced and cancelled–abrogated–by the intolerant, murderous ones from the Medinan period.

This is explained in the Qur’an itself, which reports that Allah revealed to Muhammad that wherever two verses contradict each other, the later one abrogates the former. All the violent, Medinan verses came after the more peaceful ones, which were from Mecca. So if one verse disagrees with another, then the later verse takes precedence.

Qur’an 2:106 Whatever verse we shall abrogate, or cause [thee, Muhammad] to forget, we will bring a better than it, or one like unto it. Dos’t thou not know that God is almighty?

Qur'an 13:39
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

Quran 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another - and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages) - they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

The Hadith of Bukhari, volume 6, # 489, says that 2:106 refers to this abrogation of revelation to be within the Qur’an itself, and “abrogation” is explained as the substituting the newer one for older:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said, “Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave (out) some of what he recites”. Ubai says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever”. But Allah said: “None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar” (Qur’an 2:106). (Bukhari: vol. 6, Hadith 527, p. 489; book LXI)

The law of Abrogation is an obvious cover-up for Muhammad changing his mind and reversing previous doctrine, particularly against Christians and Jews, whom earlier were regarded saved brothers in the faith.

If Allah were really the all-knowing God, he would have known already that his Eternal Qur'an contradicted the Old and New Testament Scriptures; and so, no need to have to change his mind later about his attitude toward Jews and Christians.

So we see a dramatic shift in doctrine from the time Muhammad resided in Mecca, to the time he spent in Madina. Muhammad explained this reversal by the doctrine of abrogation.

The reason is because, in the 7th century CE, when Muhammad desired Christians and Jews to accept him as their prophet. The Christians and Jews refused. Muhammad changed the facts of the Torah and the Gospel in his message that conflicted with their Scriptural beliefs and doctrines. Therefore, the Jews and Christians could not, in good conscience, accept Muhammad as a prophet.

Submission and Obedience to Muhammad is NOT Optional

Muhammad took this rejection of him as an insult and also as a threat to his prophet status. Muhammad demanded submission, but the Jews and Christians would not submit. For example:

Qur'an 3:132 And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad ) that you may obtain mercy.

Qur'an 4:80 He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad ), has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad ) as a watcher over them.

Quran 4:65 But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

Qur'an 8:20 O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad ) while you are hearing. 21 And be not like those who say: "We have heard," but they hear not. 22 Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allah are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).

Qur'an 24:52 And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful ones. 53 They swear by Allah their strongest oaths, that if only you would order them, they would leave (their homes for fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: "Swear you not; (this) obedience (of yours) is known (to be false). Verily, Allah knows well what you do." 54. Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad ) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)."

Abu Salamah ibn 'Abdur-Rahman heard Abu Hurayrah says that the Messenger of Allah said:
"Whoever obeys me has obeyed Allah. Whoever rebels against me has rebelled against Allah. Whoever obeys my Amir (teaching) has obeyed me. Whoever rebels against my Amir has disobeyed me."
[Sahih Muslim and Sahih Al-Bukhari]

The Prophet said:
"When I forbid you to do something, avoid it. When I command you to do something, then do it as much as you are able." [Muslim and Al-Bukhari]

Obeying the Messenger Muhammad is obeying Allah since Allah commands that Muhammad be obeyed. True obedience is obedience to Allah's command and therefore obedience to His Prophet.

So, if we look at Islam as a whole, what we find is essentially a totalitarian political system for war, subjugation of all others, and world conquest and domination disguised in a thin veneer of vaguely religious-sounding ornamentation from the Meccan period that was abrogated and has no power.

It must be said, that even the ‘do this for Allah’ verses are – quite unlike what we usually call ‘religion’ – demands for blind obedience to Muhammad and justification for all manner of cruelty done with the aim of spreading Islam. Islam is, in reality, a pseudo-religious/political cult that is centered on Muhammad as the last prophet.

Taqyah
Taqyah is used in Promoting the “Veneer” of Islam as a peaceful religion to cover-up its true nature of brutality, destruction and subjugation

Quran 3:28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution (takiah – deception), that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Regarding Quran 3:28, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, vol. 2, 141, comments as follows:

“‘Unless you indeed fear a danger from them’ meaning, except those believers who in some 51 areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly.…‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’”

“Mohammed said, ‘War is deceit.’” (Bukhari vol. 4:267 and 269)

“He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.” (Bukhari vol. 3:857 p.533)

The common Muslim belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:

1st, to save one’s life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition to a foreign land.

By means of a teaching of Muhammad called, “Takiah” (which includes lying to promote Islam to prevent hostility against Muslims), Muslims today have become efficient and creative at promoting Islam with a “veneer” of peaceful religion when they are still a minority. . .

Once Muslims gain enough power in a foreign land, you will see that they will demand more and more with the threat of retaliation if they do not get their way.

 

[Joyousperson]

setst RE: Your knowledge of Islam, from what you have written about it so far, is very limited. In fact, you sound like those Muslims who use Taqyah, quoting only those earlier Quran Mecca verses, have completely disregard the later commands of Allah and Muhammad.

Hi Joseph,

You wrote something that bothered me enough to respond, because you have repeated this before...
<<
How many times do I have to tell you this? My knowledge of Islam doesn't come only from others, I have studied the Qur'an thoroughly.
>>

setst RE: Your knowledge of Islam, from what you have written about it so far, is very limited. In fact, you sound like those Muslims who use Taqyah, quoting only those earlier Quran Mecca verses, have completely disregard the later commands of Allah and Muhammad.

It is obvious why you, and also western leaders and scholars, so confused, ignorant, and naive regarding Islam...

You have been naively led by Islamic scholars in the West who have effectively used Taqyah on you, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

If REALLY you look at the Qur’an, you’ll find:

1) verses revealed at Mecca (bits and pieces from Judeo/Christian and Pagan lore and from the Bible and many other sources;

2) verses from Medina (a manual for totalitarian control, subjugation, warfare, and world conquest).

3) Mecca and 2 Medina are intermingled, as the Qur’an is not printed in chronological order but rather in order of longest-to-shortest chapters.

If all its verses are analyzed and quantified, however, you’ll find that the vast majority of the Qur’an’s contents – and even more of its companion books, the Hadith and the Sira, which clarify any ambiguities found in the Qur’an, are clearly about totalitarian control and war.

Ambiquities Clarified between Meccan and Madinan doctrine. . .

The Meccan verses are the earlier verses. These verses, which sound so religious, are lifted from the Bible and mythical tales. This is the Meccan period. The Meccan period verses have been replaced and cancelled–abrogated–by the intolerant, murderous ones from the Medinan period.

This is explained in the Qur’an itself, which reports that Allah revealed to Muhammad that wherever two verses contradict each other, the later one abrogates the former. All the violent, Medinan verses came after the more peaceful ones, which were from Mecca. So if one verse disagrees with another, then the later verse takes precedence.

Qur’an 2:106 Whatever verse we shall abrogate, or cause [thee, Muhammad] to forget, we will bring a better than it, or one like unto it. Dos’t thou not know that God is almighty?

Qur'an 13:39
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

Quran 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another - and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages) - they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

The Hadith of Bukhari, volume 6, # 489, says that 2:106 refers to this abrogation of revelation to be within the Qur’an itself, and “abrogation” is explained as the substituting the newer one for older:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said, “Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave (out) some of what he recites”. Ubai says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever”. But Allah said: “None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar” (Qur’an 2:106). (Bukhari: vol. 6, Hadith 527, p. 489; book LXI)

The law of Abrogation is an obvious cover-up for Muhammad changing his mind and reversing previous doctrine, particularly against Christians and Jews, whom earlier were regarded saved brothers in the faith.

If Allah were really the all-knowing God, he would have known already that his Eternal Qur'an contradicted the Old and New Testament Scriptures; and so, no need to have to change his mind later about his attitude toward Jews and Christians.

So we see a dramatic shift in doctrine from the time Muhammad resided in Mecca, to the time he spent in Madina. Muhammad explained this reversal by the doctrine of abrogation.

The reason is because, in the 7th century CE, when Muhammad desired Christians and Jews to accept him as their prophet. The Christians and Jews refused. Muhammad changed the facts of the Torah and the Gospel in his message that conflicted with their Scriptural beliefs and doctrines. Therefore, the Jews and Christians could not, in good conscience, accept Muhammad as a prophet.

Submission and Obedience to Muhammad is NOT Optional

Muhammad took this rejection of him as an insult and also as a threat to his prophet status. Muhammad demanded submission, but the Jews and Christians would not submit. For example:

Qur'an 3:132 And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad ) that you may obtain mercy.

Qur'an 4:80 He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad ), has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad ) as a watcher over them.

Quran 4:65 But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

Qur'an 8:20 O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad ) while you are hearing. 21 And be not like those who say: "We have heard," but they hear not. 22 Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allah are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).

Qur'an 24:52 And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful ones. 53 They swear by Allah their strongest oaths, that if only you would order them, they would leave (their homes for fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: "Swear you not; (this) obedience (of yours) is known (to be false). Verily, Allah knows well what you do." 54. Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad ) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)."

Abu Salamah ibn 'Abdur-Rahman heard Abu Hurayrah says that the Messenger of Allah said:
"Whoever obeys me has obeyed Allah. Whoever rebels against me has rebelled against Allah. Whoever obeys my Amir (teaching) has obeyed me. Whoever rebels against my Amir has disobeyed me."
[Sahih Muslim and Sahih Al-Bukhari]

The Prophet said:
"When I forbid you to do something, avoid it. When I command you to do something, then do it as much as you are able." [Muslim and Al-Bukhari]

Obeying the Messenger Muhammad is obeying Allah since Allah commands that Muhammad be obeyed. True obedience is obedience to Allah's command and therefore obedience to His Prophet.

So, if we look at Islam as a whole, what we find is essentially a totalitarian political system for war, subjugation of all others, and world conquest and domination disguised in a thin veneer of vaguely religious-sounding ornamentation from the Meccan period that was abrogated and has no power.

It must be said, that even the ‘do this for Allah’ verses are – quite unlike what we usually call ‘religion’ – demands for blind obedience to Muhammad and justification for all manner of cruelty done with the aim of spreading Islam. Islam is, in reality, a pseudo-religious/political cult that is centered on Muhammad as the last prophet.

Taqyah
Taqyah is used in Promoting the “Veneer” of Islam as a peaceful religion to cover-up its true nature of brutality, destruction and subjugation

Quran 3:28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution (takiah – deception), that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Regarding Quran 3:28, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, vol. 2, 141, comments as follows:

“‘Unless you indeed fear a danger from them’ meaning, except those believers who in some 51 areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly.…‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’”

“Mohammed said, ‘War is deceit.’” (Bukhari vol. 4:267 and 269)

“He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.” (Bukhari vol. 3:857 p.533)

The common Muslim belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:

1st, to save one’s life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition to a foreign land.

By means of a teaching of Muhammad called, “Takiah” (which includes lying to promote Islam to prevent hostility against Muslims), Muslims today have become efficient and creative at promoting Islam with a “veneer” of peaceful religion when they are still a minority. . .

Once Muslims gain enough power in a foreign land, you will see that they will demand more and more with the threat of retaliation if they do not get their way.

Well said with very relevant supports from the original Islamic sources.

JosephZ as usual will merely wave opinions and relied on those [bias scholars] who are bent on Taqiyya.

 

[JosephZ]

Your knowledge of Islam, from what you have written about it so far, is very limited. In fact, you sound like those Muslims who use Taqyah, quoting only those earlier Quran Mecca verses, have completely disregard the later commands of Allah and Muhammad.

I'm just curious, how many years of your life have you spent living in majority Muslim regions of the world? How many hours have you spent sitting face to face with a Muslim or in a forum setting discussing the religion of Islam with Muslims?

western leaders and scholars, so confused, ignorant, and naive regarding Islam...

What about the more than a billion and a half Muslims in the world who would disagree with what you are posting here? What about scholars like Dr. Abu Ameen Bilal Philips who was educated in Saudi Arabia? I have taken courses offered by his online school whose target audience is Muslims.

The founder of this school and the professor of those courses is Dr. Bilal Philips, a Sunni Salafi fundamentalist. He was even arrested here in Davao City and banned from returning to the Philippines because of his suspected ties to extremists.

DAVAO CITY: Police and immigration agents on Sunday arrested in this city Canadian Muslim scholar and professor Dr. Abu Ameen Bilal Philips, whom authorities suspect has ties with some Muslim radical extremist groups. Philips, who has been banned from entering the United States and the United Kingdom, was conducting a lecture in a predominantly Muslim village when he was invited for questioning and subsequently held in custody by authorities.

Since countering violent extremism is incorporated into our ministry here, the above is the reason why I enrolled in his courses so that I could have a better understanding of what he teaches since he is popular among many of the Muslims in the communities we work in.

Dr. Philips received his B.A. degree from the Islamic University of Medina and his M.A. in Islamic Theology from the King Saud University in Riyadh, completed his PhD at the University of Wales, St. David's University College. He taught Islamic studies for a decade at an Islamic high school in Riyadh and was an Arabic and Islamic studies teacher in the American University of Dubai for 10 years.

All of the lectures from those courses were given by Dr. Philips, and even he doesn't teach what you are saying on this forum. Quite the opposite actually.

In addition, I have spent much of my life living and working in Muslim majority regions of the world, so my knowledge and experiences with Islam doesn't only come from a western school of thought.

You have been naively led by Islamic scholars in the West who have effectively used Taqyah on you, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

When I copy and past your content into a search engine, one site keeps coming up at the top of the list of results. "AnsweringIslam"

While you do put your own spin into your replies, it's impossible not to see the similarities between your posts in this thread and the content at the answeringislam site.

Do Not Bash Muslims
The Quranic witness to the authority of the Holy Bible

Do Not Bash Muslims
The Qur'an: Grammatical Errors

Even your last post where you discussed Taqiyya reflected some of the material found at this link:
Rebuttal to Shabir Ally: Shabir Ally's Favorite Questions

AnsweringIslam is not an Islamic source. In it's about me section it says "We are Evangelical Christians." Much of the material found on that site comes from well known anti-Islamic propagandists such as David Wood, Bill Warner, etc...

It appears that you have fallen for the misinformation campaign that has been pushed by anti-Islamic propagandists since 9/11.

By means of a teaching of Muhammad called, “Takiah” (which includes lying to promote Islam to prevent hostility against Muslims), Muslims today have become efficient and creative at promoting Islam with a “veneer” of peaceful religion when they are still a minority. . .

Here is a response I gave on Taqiyya in another thread:

Taqiyya is a concept used to discredit Muslims and most Muslims have never even heard of it.

The word taqiyya isn't found anywhere in the Qur'an, but here is the definition:

Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”

That definition is very specific as to when a lie is permissible.

Below is the ONLY verse found in the Qur'an that suggests that lying is acceptable and even then it is better to choose death rather than to lie as the hadith below it states:

"As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but only, to him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth upon all such falls God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them" (Qur'an 16:106)

"There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license to deny one's faith under duress, but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that instead of choosing death." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

The following hadiths make it clear that lying is forbidden:

Verily, truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man may speak the truth until he is recorded with Allah as truthful. Verily, lying leads to wickedness and wickedness leads to the Hellfire. A man may tell lies until he is recorded with Allah as a liar. (Sahih al-Bukhari 5743, Sahih Muslim 2607)

"Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)

Aisha reported: There was no behavior more hateful to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, than dishonesty. A man would tell a lie when speaking in the presence of the Prophet and he would not be satisfied until he knew that he had repented. (Sunan al-Tirmidhī)

The following hadith says it is one of the greatest of sins.

"Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!" (Wasaelush Shia)

There you have it plain as day, lying is forbidden in Islam; and only when a Muslim faces harm and persecution and only as a last resort is lying permissible.

There are exceptions where a Muslim can tell a minor lie to keep peace and harmony among others, an example of this would be like if a wife asks her husband if a certain dress makes her look fat, and he answers "no" even when it's obvious that it does. Flat out lying and deceit is not acceptable though.