Do Not Bash Muslims

[setst777]

Nothing in the Qur'an is overruled. There is not a single abrogation in the Qur'an.

So very naive. Even Muslims are naive about their own faith.

The Quran teaches that Allah causes some earlier (mainly Meccan) commands (Quranic verses) to be replaced with, or superceded by, later (mainly Medinan) revelation (commands) from Allah.

Qur'an 13:39
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

Qur'an 16:101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages) - they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Islam can never be peaceful

Islamic doctrine states that Muhammad was the last (seal) of the prophets and so there will be none after him. Therefore, whatever Muhammad revealed as the commands of Allah can never be rescinded or modified now or in the future despite the efforts of some contemporary liberal Muslims to re-interpret Islamic doctrine and law toward a more peaceful agenda based on Muhammad's earlier abrogated revelations from Allah.

In essence, there is no such thing as different degrees of Islam such as 'liberal,' 'moderate,' 'conservative' or 'fundamental.' Islam by its very nature must submit to the teachings, commands and actions of Muhammad, and there can be no change. Therefore, there is no Islam other than Fundamental Islam. Every Muslim knows this, even though an individual Muslim may not fully observe their faith and practices.

Quran 4:65 But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accet (them) with full submission.

What do we learn from this? We learn that Islam means submission. Islam itself is founded on the Quran and Hadith.

If some Muslims appear to be moderate, there are one of two reasons for this appearance:

1) Some Muslims are not as faithful or knowledgeable as others regarding their faith, and have been 'Westernized.'

2) Some Muslims are deliberately being deceptive about their beliefs to appear peaceful and inclusive so as not to alert, warn, or create hostility in unbelievers to themselves and the Islamic faith. This is a Muslim tactic called Tuqyah.

Tuqyah and Abrogation

When talking with Christians, Jews, or other unbelievers in foreign lands, Muslims are trained to use deception (tuqyah) regarding the intent of Islamic Law toward unbelievers (infidels). They do this to keep their true intentions hidden so the infidels will not become alerted to their true agenda and become defensive and hostile toward them.

One of the ways Muslims use Tuqyah is by sharing the earlier abrogated peaceful verses out of the Quran to give you the false impression that they are a harmless religion of peace that needs your love and acceptance just as their own Holy Book teaches.

After convincing the West that they are a religion of peace, and that terrorists are Muslims cannot possibly be true Muslims, they then use the legal system of the West to give them protected status and special rights by:

1) claiming a religious status protected by Western laws.
2) claiming they are a minority so they can claim protection under minority laws.
3) claiming Islam as an ethnicity/race so they can be protect under hate crimes laws.
4) claiming that they are a disadvantaged people in need of protection.

This multi-prong deception gives Islam a powerful advantage as they gain presence and dominion in foreign lands.

Regarding Islamic Nations, they may use Tuquah in the form of a truce with another more powerful nation or society. But the truce is only temporary until that Islamic Nation has enough power to conquer and destory the other nation according to Sharia Law

Reliance of The Traveler
Truces
o9.16 Umar Barakat explains that truces are only ever temporary, for the benefit of the Muslim war effort, since it is “a matter of the gravest consequence because it entails the non-performance of jihad”.

So, in reality, Islam is actually a political system that is couched in religion. Islam is not an ethnicity.

The Islamic doctrines and laws are clearly discriminatory, promoting hate against all who are not Islamic. Anyone who resists Islam, or attempts to unveil Islam for what they really stand for (telling the truth about Islam) will invoke defensive Jihad in many varied ways (legally, culturally, socially) in an attempt to crush the threat.

The Sharia Law justifies the following actions to squash resistance (in stages) to its agenda against unbelievers: as follows:

Reliance of The Traveler (Sharia Law)
q5.0 The Act Of Censuring (others)
q5.1 The censure has various degrees of severity:
q5.3 Explaining That Something Is Wrong
q5.4 Forbidding The Act Verbally
q5.5 Censuring With Harsh Words
q5.6 Righting The Wrong By Hand “such as by breaking musical instruments”
q5.7 Intimidation by making realistic threats
q5.8 Assault “to directly hit or kick the person”
q5.9 Force of arms “when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others”.

As Sharia Law indicates, Muslims will add to this, when necessary, threats of harm, demonstrations, terrorism, suicide attacks, killings, rapings, bombings, et cetra, until they accomplish there goal of crushing the threat against their purpose of conquering that country for Islam. The actions grow ever more severe as Muslims gain greater numbers, dominance and power in infidel lands. And it works.

 

[setst777]

There are minor disagreements.

Minor disagreements? Is that why Muslims sects kill Muslims of other sects for not believing exactly like they do?

LOOK at Islam in Islamic countries. They are constantly at war with each other over "minor" differences.

 

[Yytz6]

The Quran teaches that Allah causes some earlier (mainly Meccan) commands (Quranic verses) to be replaced with, or superceded by, later (mainly Medinan) revelation (commands) from Allah.

Where does it teach that?

Qur'an 13:39
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

Qur'an 16:101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages) - they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

I was hoping to see the "abrogated verses" since that's what my comment was about -

Islam can never be peaceful

Islamic doctrine states that Muhammad was the last (seal) of the prophets and so there will be none after him. Therefore, whatever Muhammad revealed as the commands of Allah can never be rescinded or modified now or in the future despite the efforts of some contemporary liberal Muslims to re-interpret Islamic doctrine and law toward a more peaceful agenda based on Muhammad's earlier abrogated revelations from Allah.

In essence, there is no such thing as different degrees of Islam such as 'liberal,' 'moderate,' 'conservative' or 'fundamental.' Islam by its very nature must submit to the teachings, commands and actions of Muhammad, and there can be no change. Therefore, there is no Islam other than Fundamental Islam. Every Muslim knows this, even though an individual Muslim may not fully observe their faith and practices.

Quran 4:65 But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accet (them) with full submission.

What do we learn from this? We learn that Islam means submission. Islam itself is founded on the Quran and Hadith.

If some Muslims appear to be moderate, there are one of two reasons for this appearance:

1) Some Muslims are not as faithful or knowledgeable as others regarding their faith, and have been 'Westernized.'

2) Some Muslims are deliberately being deceptive about their beliefs to appear peaceful and inclusive so as not to alert, warn, or create hostility in unbelievers to themselves and the Islamic faith. This is a Muslim tactic called Tuqyah.

Tuqyah and Abrogation

When talking with Christians, Jews, or other unbelievers in foreign lands, Muslims are trained to use deception (tuqyah) regarding the intent of Islamic Law toward unbelievers (infidels). They do this to keep their true intentions hidden so the infidels will not become alerted to their true agenda and become defensive and hostile toward them.

One of the ways Muslims use Tuqyah is by sharing the earlier abrogated peaceful verses out of the Quran to give you the false impression that they are a harmless religion of peace that needs your love and acceptance just as their own Holy Book teaches.

After convincing the West that they are a religion of peace, and that terrorists are Muslims cannot possibly be true Muslims, they then use the legal system of the West to give them protected status and special rights by:

1) claiming a religious status protected by Western laws.
2) claiming they are a minority so they can claim protection under minority laws.
3) claiming Islam as an ethnicity/race so they can be protect under hate crimes laws.
4) claiming that they are a disadvantaged people in need of protection.

This multi-prong deception gives Islam a powerful advantage as they gain presence and dominion in foreign lands.

Regarding Islamic Nations, they may use Tuquah in the form of a truce with another more powerful nation or society. But the truce is only temporary until that Islamic Nation has enough power to conquer and destory the other nation according to Sharia Law

Reliance of The Traveler
Truces
o9.16 Umar Barakat explains that truces are only ever temporary, for the benefit of the Muslim war effort, since it is “a matter of the gravest consequence because it entails the non-performance of jihad”.

So, in reality, Islam is actually a political system that is couched in religion. Islam is not an ethnicity.

The Islamic doctrines and laws are clearly discriminatory, promoting hate against all who are not Islamic. Anyone who resists Islam, or attempts to unveil Islam for what they really stand for (telling the truth about Islam) will invoke defensive Jihad in many varied ways (legally, culturally, socially) in an attempt to crush the threat.

The Sharia Law justifies the following actions to squash resistance (in stages) to its agenda against unbelievers: as follows:

Reliance of The Traveler (Sharia Law)
q5.0 The Act Of Censuring (others)
q5.1 The censure has various degrees of severity:
q5.3 Explaining That Something Is Wrong
q5.4 Forbidding The Act Verbally
q5.5 Censuring With Harsh Words
q5.6 Righting The Wrong By Hand “such as by breaking musical instruments”
q5.7 Intimidation by making realistic threats
q5.8 Assault “to directly hit or kick the person”
q5.9 Force of arms “when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others”.

As Sharia Law indicates, Muslims will add to this, when necessary, threats of harm, demonstrations, terrorism, suicide attacks, killings, rapings, bombings, et cetra, until they accomplish there goal of crushing the threat against their purpose of conquering that country for Islam. The actions grow ever more severe as Muslims gain greater numbers, dominance and power in infidel lands. And it works.

not this irrelevant rubbish I believe you already posted in this same thread earlier.

 

[Yytz6]

Minor disagreements? Is that why Muslims sects kill Muslims of other sects for not believing exactly like they do?

LOOK at Islam in Islamic countries. They are constantly at war with each other over "minor" differences.

They're at war over major differences - which have nothing to do with the Quran and very little to do with Islam.

 

[setst777]

Which verses are those?

Well first of all this one was for the children of Israel. Similar verse, very similar, is found in the Torah.

Secondly the verse says unless it is for punishment.

Thirdly the topic continues as follows to the next verse:

5:33 "Those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and go about the earth spreading mischief -indeed their recompense is that they either be done to death, or be crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off from the opposite sides or be banished from the land. Such shall be their degradation in this world; and a mighty chastisement lies in store for them in the World to Come."

Another very naive 'Muslim.'

You write:
<<
Which verses are those?

Well first of all this one was for the children of Israel. Similar verse, very similar, is found in the Torah.

Secondly the verse says unless it is for punishment.

Thirdly the topic continues as follows to the next verse
>>

My Response:

Islam teaches Muslims to fight all those of false worship. The real religion is only Islam.

Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshiping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshiping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Notice that "religion" means worshiping the Islamic Allah. Believing in, or worshiping, anything else is NOT true religion according to Muhammad and so is to be fought and condemned. There is no middle road or doubt about Islam's motives. Islamic motives are founded on the commands of Allah to all Muslims recorded in their Holy Book - The Quran.

The Qur'an clearly teaches that all unbelievers are the cursed, fit for hell and are to be destroyed.

Muslims are taught that all non-Muslims, including Jews and Christians, are the lowest form of life, fit to burn in hell.... Sounds pretty peaceful and inclusive:

Qur'an 98:
5 And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allah, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him, ex: Trinity), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat: and that is the right religion.
6. Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad from among the people of the Scripture - Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun (idolatry or polytheism) will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Qur'an 8:55 Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve - so they shall not believe.

In contrast to non-muslims, the best of peoples evolved for mankind are only Muslims:

Qur'an 3:110
“Ye (Muslims) are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.”

When you consider the Muslim lands today, do you get the impression that they are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind?

Muslims like to say they are peaceful and would never kill one who is innocent. That is true.

In Islam, the only one who is innocent is a Muslim.

Quran 48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.

That is why Muslims today who immigrate to western European countries, or the US, have little regard or respect for unbelievers (non-Muslims).

 

[setst777]

Where does it teach that?
I was hoping to see the "abrogated verses" since that's what my comment was about -
not this irrelevant rubbish I believe you already posted in this same thread earlier.

You write:
<<
I was hoping to see the "abrogated verses" since that's what my comment was about -
>>

Let's start with one good Example of Islamic Deception - Tuqyah

Muslims quote Quran 5:32 to promote the deception that Islam believes in a universal principal that all life is sacred to Allah. It says

Qur'an 5:32 "If any one slew a person... it would be as if he slew a whole people; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of a whole people..."

Quoting this verse is Tuqyah (an allusion in order to confuse and to mask their true agenda)

"Quran 5:32" is a quote from the following Jewish sources: Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; Yerushalmi Talmud 4:9, Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 37a.

The deception is found by reading the full context of Quran 5:32, which makes clear that this beautiful universal love was for the Jews only to follow - not Muslims:

Quran 5:32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.

Notice the very next verse (same chapter), which is NOT for Jews but for Muslims...

Quran 5:33. The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Notice that Quran 5:32 is for Jews only, while Quran 5:33 is for Muslims only - that they are to kill, crucify and to dismember others: “the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides.” Those who make war or do mischief in the land. This injunction is dutifully followed by ISIS.

"Quran 5:33" although couched in a specific context or incident at that time, provides one of many Quranic texts that defines the basis for Islamic Sharia Blasphemy Laws, in which people are executed for insulting or questioning Islam, or for being an Apostate, or a hypocrite. We see this happening in Muslim lands today, and such has been happening for hundreds of years.

Abrogated verses

Qur'an 2:106
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Qur'an 13:39
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

Qur'an 16:101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages) - they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

This is an obvious cover-up for Muhammad changing his mind and reversing previous doctrine. If Allah were really the all-knowing God, he would have known already that his Eternal Qur'an contradicted the Old and New Testament Scriptures; and so, no need to have to change his mind later about his attitude toward Jews and Christians.

Examples of Abrogation

Peaceful verses from Meccan period

Qur'an 29:46 We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One"

Qur'an 2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (gnostic sect), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

Qur'an 5:69 Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah, in His Messenger Muhammad and all that was revealed to him from Allah), and those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians - whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

These earlier verses sound inclusive and peaceful and non-judgmental, so Muslims will use those verses to deceive the West into believing they are a religion of peace from their own Holy Book.

What the Muslim will not tell you is that later violent verses revealed by Muhammad while in Medina clearly (abrogate or replace) the passive earlier verses. The later verses indiscriminately call for war (Jihad) on unbelievers by all able-bodied Muslims.

The later Qur'anic verses oppose what Christians and Jews believe, and curse both groups as being worthy of eternal condemnation and burning fire. In other words, later verses teach that anyone who is not a Muslim will be condemned - "the loser."

Quran 3:85 "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! (Muslims) fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment (to believe in Allah and His Messenger or be destroyed) to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Qur'an 9:
29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Although ALL Qur'anic verses are couched in an historical setting, the command is universal as Islamic History teaches us. All the Caliphs after Muhammad went on a rampage killing, raping and destroying civilizations across all the Middle East up to China and all the way to Italy.

In reality, millions of infidels who were conquered by Islam in 2/3 of the Christian world within 100 years under threat of slavery, torture and death, did profess Islam as their faith. Millions did this to avoid persecution by Muslims. That is why we have so many Muslims today. Current generations of Muslims are descendents of those ancestors who were originally 'forced' into conversion to Islam at the point of a sword years earlier.

Quran 8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

What "Quran 8:39" is saying is that if you refuse to believe you will receive the punishment of Allah by means of Muhammad and all Muslims. And if that means subjugating and killing everyone who will not believe, then that is how "religion" will be for Allah alone in the whole world. (Quran: 8:39).

In the Islamic wars, the Muslims kills over 120 million people (including those black slaves who died on ships destined for the slave trade). More about that later. Hundreds of millions more people were torn from their culture, their homes, their familes. They (people mainly from Christian lands - mostly girls and boys) were forced into slavery, and sex slaves to be raped, traded, sold and bought repeatedly on the slave market as commodities.

 

[Yytz6]

Another very naive 'Muslim.'

You are representing your religion, Jesus I believe?

You write:
<<
Which verses are those?

Well first of all this one was for the children of Israel. Similar verse, very similar, is found in the Torah.

Secondly the verse says unless it is for punishment.

Thirdly the topic continues as follows to the next verse
>>

My Response:

Islam teaches Muslims to fight all those of false worship.

No. It doesn't.

Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshiping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshiping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

You made a little mistake there. This quotation is invalid.

Notice that "religion" means worshiping the Islamic Allah. Believing in, or worshiping, anything else is NOT true religion according to Muhammad and so is to be fought and condemned.

they didn't change your dictionaries.

There is no middle road or doubt about Islam's motives. Islamic motives are founded on the commands of Allah to all Muslims recorded in their Holy Book - The Quran.

Yes.

The Qur'an clearly teaches that all unbelievers are the cursed, fit for hell and are to be destroyed.

Yes, but mainly in the hereafter.

Muslims are taught that all non-Muslims, including Jews and Christians, are the lowest form of life, fit to burn in hell....

Rubbish.

Qur'an 98:
5 And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allah, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him, ex: Trinity), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat: and that is the right religion.
6. Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad from among the people of the Scripture - Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun (idolatry or polytheism) will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

Look, you can't just twist the words and add to them. All text within a quote should be identical to the original source; the Quran. If you quote an unidentical modified version you should add a source.

 

[setst777]

You are representing your religion, Jesus I believe?
No. It doesn't.
You made a little mistake there. This quotation is invalid.
they didn't change your dictionaries.
Yes.
Yes, but mainly in the hereafter.
Rubbish.Look, you can't just twist the words and add to them. All text within a quote should be identical to the original source; the Quran. If you quote an unidentical modified version you should add a source.

You write:
<<
Look, you can't just twist the words and add to them. All text within a quote should be identical to the original source; the Quran. If you quote an unidentical modified version you should add a source.
>>

All quotes are mainly from the Noble Quran in English online.

 

[setst777]

You are representing your religion, Jesus I believe?
No. It doesn't.
You made a little mistake there. This quotation is invalid.
they didn't change your dictionaries.
Yes.
Yes, but mainly in the hereafter.
Rubbish.Look, you can't just twist the words and add to them. All text within a quote should be identical to the original source; the Quran. If you quote an unidentical modified version you should add a source.

You wrote:
<<
Look, you can't just twist the words and add to them. All text within a quote should be identical to the original source; the Quran.
>>

I didn't add those extra words in the Qur'anic quotes. Those were added by your own Islamic Scholars.

 

[Yytz6]

Let's start with one good Example of Islamic Deception - Tuqyah

Muslims quote Quran 5:32 to promote the deception that Islam believes in a universal principal that all life is sacred to Allah. It says

Muslims appreciate the Qur'an to the level that they don't quote parts of it like the Christian apologetics do.

Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) is one that doesn't change. That He says to Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) how He guided the children of Israel is not to say He wanted from the children of Israel something other than to the rest of the peoples. There is no words in the Quran that are just for *someone*. The Qur'an, the entirety of it is for all mankind.

Qur'an 5:32

If any one slew a person... it would be as if he slew a whole people; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of a whole people..."

Quoting this verse is Tuqyah (an allusion in order to confuse and to mask their true agenda)

What is Taqiyya - let's see:
Are Muslims allowed to lie for Islamic causes? Taqiyya explained

" According to Lane’s Lexicon, Taqiyya comes from the root word meaning “to be cautious, to guard.” When a Muslim’s life is being threatened, it is permissible to deny Allah and His Messenger if that will save his life or protect him from harm. Such permission was necessary at the time when Muslims were being persecuted, tortured, and killed simply for being a Muslim. Muslims are never allowed to lie for political or religious reasons, but rather only for security reasons.

It is only in these specific circumstances, in which a Muslim faces harm and persecution, that he or she is allowed to lie in self-defense. The general rule is that a Muslim should always speak the truth and be just, even when truth and justice are not in favor of the Muslims.​

O you who believe, be persistently standing firm in justice as witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or your parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. Follow not your desires, lest you not be just, and if you distort your testimony or refuse to give it, then Allah is aware of what you do.
Surat An-Nisa 4:135

The Prophet told us that truthfulness leads to Paradise and falsehood leads to Hellfire. If a Muslim continues to lie and cheat, then Allah will record him as a liar and punish him on the Day of Judgment."​

"Quran 5:32"

is a quote from the following Jewish sources: Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; Yerushalmi Talmud 4:9, Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 37a.

It's not a quote it's Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) repeating his previous words.

Notice the very next verse (same chapter), which is NOT for Jews but for Muslims...

Quran 5:33.

The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

As said before the whole Qur'an is for all peoples. However, even if looked at the way you do - this verse is a warning to the people who wage war against Islam.

Abrogated verses

Qur'an 2:106
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Previous revelation - not within the Qur'an.

Qur'an 16:101
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages) - they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

The unbelievers accused Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) of forgery because the Qur'an was revealed in stages. So the same theme comes up again and again from different perspectives. They didn't understand it. They thought Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) should send down the revelation immediately as a whole, not in stages.

So substituting here means also that; revealing a verse regarding another to elaborate farther.

This is an obvious cover-up for Muhammad changing his mind and reversing previous doctrine. If Allah were really the all-knowing God, he would have known already that his Eternal Qur'an contradicted the Old and New Testament Scriptures; and so, no need to have to change his mind later about his attitude toward Jews and Christians.

Well he says both books have been changed - besided neither was revelation to begin with. They are writings from people.

Qur'an 29:46 We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One"

Qur'an 2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (gnostic sect), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

Qur'an 5:69 Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah, in His Messenger Muhammad and all that was revealed to him from Allah), and those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians - whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

These earlier verses sound inclusive and peaceful and non-judgmental, so Muslims will use those verses to deceive the West into believing they are a religion of peace from their own Holy Book.

What the Muslim will not tell you is that later violent verses revealed by Muhammad while in Medina clearly (abrogate or replace) the passive earlier verses. The later verses indiscriminately call for war (Jihad) on unbelievers by all able-bodied Muslims.

The later Qur'anic verses oppose what Christians and Jews believe, and curse both groups as being worthy of eternal condemnation and burning fire. In other words, later verses teach that anyone who is not a Muslim will be condemned - "the loser."

Quran 3:85 "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Meaning who does not submit to Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala). The translation is misleading.

Quran 8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

If you had read the next verse you wouldn't have needed to bring this up. The Qur'an needs to be studied as a whole. Not in bits and pieces.

 

[Yytz6]

You wrote:
<<
Look, you can't just twist the words and add to them. All text within a quote should be identical to the original source; the Quran.
>>

I didn't add those extra words in the Qur'anic quotes. Those were added by your own Islamic Scholars.

Which one? If it's false you should add a source.

 

[Joyousperson]

Hi Joyousperson,

You are totally right on about Islam Ideology as being the foundation for most terrorism in the world, since all other religions do not have such an Ideology to conquer the world for their religion.

The Quran and the Hadith command and teach Muslims to accomplish this will of Allah through terror, through populating foreign countries, through political means, through deception (taqiyya), through demonstrations, violence, threats, destruction of the foreign countries culture, and eventually war. All this is taught in Islamic Ideology in order.

However, I take issue with your following comment...

<<
Within this limitation, Muslims need to be educated to mindfully focus solely on the soteriological and good elements.
>>

My reply:
The use of deception in using the Qu'an's peaceful verses will fail, since most Muslims will eventually figure out the reality.

Why? The reason most Muslims will eventually see through this deception is that they will eventually learn that later verses abrogate earlier verses - so if two verses disagree or teaches contrary to the other, then the later verse abrogates the earlier verse.

Muslims are not as naive as you might think...

Muslims today typically uses Taqiyya (deception), picking convenient verses from the Quran to try to prove they are peaceful. Those peaceful verses were made when Muhammad was still in Mecca, was a minority, and had no power.

Since the later Qur'anic verses are quite violent, commanding Muslims to fight Christians, Jews, and all unbelievers, until the whole world is for Islam, then those are the verses that hold the authority.

More Muslims then you think are already aware of this and are supportive of terrorism and the destruction of the West and of Israel, even though they may not actively pursue terrorism themselves. Once you see the consensus results of Muslims throughout the world, you will immediately see that most support Shariah Law - which, among other things, embodies the hate that we find in the later verses.

Once you educate the remaining naive Muslims as to what the Quran actually teaches about their faith, then they will have two choices...

1) to leave Islam

2) to live out their faith and become terrorists.

Living as hypocrites will no longer be an option, because they know they will not be accepted by Allah unless they obey.

My feeling is that the more Muslims that find out about what is expected of them to follow Muhammad and the Qur'an, the more will turn to terrorism, or will actively support terrorism while waiting for orders from the next Caliph to fight for Allah to kill the non-Muslims in the countries they now reside.

Yes, more Muslims will also leave Islam once they found out about Islams true teachings. But many more of the over 1 billion Muslims in the world will follow their faith more accurately in the supporting or pursuing terrorism.

So, in essence, educating Muslims about the true Ideology of their religions will, in effect, wake up a sleeping giant in our midst - many living all over Europe and the United States.

Besides this, the Western nations have been put under the spell of Satan, so that even those who claim to be Christian are easily deceived by Islam and - despite claiming to be against hate - are actually ending up supporting the most hateful and destructive force the world will ever see - the rise of the Anti-Christ.

I truly believe the only thing that will stop Islam is the return of Christ. The battle lines are being prepared, and Islam's intentions have repeatedly been made clear by the leaders of hard core Islamic countries - the destruction of Israel, the West, and true Christians.

The Islamic nations that surround Israel will one day form a united coalition against Israel, with the help of Europe (which will do their bidding), and will plan to utterly destroy Israel forever.

However, the True God has other plans. That PLAN will be the great Battle of Armageddon.

The world will learn that Israel (ZION) is the place God has chosen as His Eternal Resting place with His faithful followers...

Psalm 132:12-14 (NASB)

12 “If your sons will keep My covenant
And My testimony which I will teach them,
Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forever.”
13 For the Lord has chosen Zion;
He has desired it for His habitation.
14 “This is My resting place forever;
Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.

Revelation 21:2-9 (NASB)
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them… 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.

Hebrews 4:9-11 (NIV)
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that place of rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

I agree with your points.

My point re educating Muslims on the true nature of the ideology of Islam to highlight its inherent evil and violent elements.
Then we have to take steps to ensure they are not influenced by those evil and violent elements.

As I had mentioned in the longer run [>50 -75 years?], Muslims must be educated to voluntarily adopt other non-violent religions.

In the meantime, it is not practical for all Muslims, who are in need of a religion, to shift to another religion suddenly.
Thus there is a need for a transitional phase, i.e. to focus on the soteriological aspects of Islam only and avoid the evil and violent elements.

 

[Joyousperson]

I think you meant to put the sahada and the five pillars of Islam.

My point was, a Muslim is a person who has to enter into a contract [covenant] with Allah to comply with the stipulated covenanted terms which is in the Quran.
The Shahada is one or the most common form of a declaration to enter into the covenant with Allah.

The five pillars of Islam is the most fundamental set of precepts a Muslim has to comply with. To be a complete Muslim one has to comply with all of the terms within the 6236 verses of the Quran, which include the 6 pillars of Iman [Mushin], the various pillars of taqwa [muttagin].

DNA?

The DNA of all human contain all the codings to drive the primal impulses. e.g. to survive, eat, sex, breathe, fear, fight or flight, aggression and others.

The fight within the "fight or flight" response together with the aggression response are the fundamental drive that set up the potential in all humans to commit evil and violence.

The evil and violent impulse is an inherent potential in ALL humans but not active in all but active only a percentage of people conservatively 20%.

It is this natural % that is active in people who are vulnerable or prone to evil and violence that there is banning and censorship of evil and violent elements in movies [PG ratings], computer games, media, News, sports, books, etc.

Even if the main message of a movie or other media could be good prevails over evil, many authorities are censoring or ban the evil and violent elements to avoid it influencing the vulnerables.

The Quran contain loads of evil and violent elements, therefore these should be censored to avoid it influencing the 20% or pool of 320 million Muslims who are vulnerable, especially within the stake of either eternal life in paradise or eternal burning in Hell.

The reality and evidences of the vulnerable Muslims acting out the evil and violent elements by SOME evil prone Muslims is so glaring and many innocent non-Muslims and also Muslims [takfir] are killed.

But the dilemma is the Quran is supposed to be immutable, cannot be edited by humans, thus the evil and violent elements in the Quran are exposed to the vulnerable Muslims [a pool of 320 million].

To avoid the evil and violent elements in the Quran influencing the vulnerable, the evil and violent elements must be censored or banned.

 

[Joyousperson]

The Bible actually contains more violent imagery than the Quran, even in the New Testament. And far right Christian nationalist groups in the US are actually considered a significant domestic terrorist threat in the US by the FBI.

Contents wise, yes, the Bible especially the OT contain more and much perverted evil and violent imagery than the Quran. But these are not applicable in terms of doctrines, principles and commands from God.

Note my argument on who is a Christian
Who is a Christian?
The core of Christianity as effective for a Christian is only in the Gospels of Jesus Christ. The rest, epistles, acts, and relevant verses from the OT are merely supporting appendixes and exposition of the main doctrine in the Gospels.

The Gospels contain an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love all - even enemies' which override all other verses in the Gospels which are 'grey' [if any] and seemingly contain violent elements.

The Christian God thus has taken preventive steps as above to ensure its religion, i.e. Christianity itself is not to be blame for the acts of Christians who committed those acts from their own free will and human nature.
In this case, you cannot blame Christianity per se, but the blame is on the individual Christian who has to face God on Judgement Day. If the Christian has a good reason, e.g. for the greater good, self defense, etc., s/he may be forgiven if not will be punished in hell.

On the other hand, the evil and violent elements in the Quran are not images, but are doctrinal commands that a Muslim must adopt where the conditions of threat [vaguely defined] against Islam exist. This is why SOME Muslims will kill non-Muslims for drawing cartoons of Muhammad which is a threat to Islam.

 

[Joyousperson]

Interpretations of the Quran vary wildly, from the theocratic to the mystical.

Yes the interpretations of the Quran can vary from 1/100 to 100/100 from the original intentions of Allah.

What counts is what is the intended message of Allah within the 77000 words in 6236 verses delivered via Muhammad to people.

To understand the intended message of the Quran of Allah, we need to read, research and investigate the 77,000+ words and 6,236 verses of the Quran thoroughly on an objective, logical, rational, and philosophical [epistemological] basis.
I have done that.

From my research, what I noted is 3400++ or 20% of the 6236 verses are devoted to non-Muslims in a contemptuous mode filled with all sorts of derogatory terms.

One has to question, why is a supposedly 'religion of peace' resorting to such an antagonistic attitude toward non-Muslim and invoking the primal 'us versus them' into the Muslim mind?

There are less than 10 notable verses that has an apparent inkling of positiveness [consideration] to the non-Muslims. But these are very conditional and are overridden by the tsunami of the 3400++ evil and violent verses [of various degrees].

 

[Hieronymus]

This thread has the same exact title and the same exact content that this one does: Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims

That one was shut down for good reason, what's the point in starting another?


Since greater than 99% of the world's Muslims aren't participating in violent jihad, shouldn't that tell you something?

Not yet anyway.
At the moment they conquer Europe through replacement migration schemes and by procreation.

Even if you are correct with your interpretation of Islam, why would you ever want to convince the 99% of Muslims who are not violent that they are wrong for practicing their religion peacefully?

What if they become the majority in western countries?
They may want to do as Muhammad told them and rule over the indigenous people, introduce Sharia and getting rid of infidels.

Why are you so adamant about Islam and so determined to convince people, both Muslims and non-Muslims alike, that the Islamic extremists and terrorists are teaching true Islam?

Why are they called fundamentalists?
Because they strive to do what Muhammad told them.

Why do legitimize the teachings of extremists and push the extremist narrative on non-Muslims and the more 90% of Muslims who reject this teaching?

Do they really reject it?
How about the new immigrants?
Fundamentalist Muslims are growing in numbers in kufar territory (Europe).

What is motivating you to push a such a violent and distorted interpretation of Islam and what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?

The teachings ARE violent though.
Shouldn't people be aware of that?
So many people just assume the Quran is just the continuation of the Bible, because that's what they're told to smoothen the replacement migration scheme.
But it isn't.
What it is, is a political movement doubling as a religion (or a religion doubling as a political movement) with the ambition to realize a global Islamic state.
It seems our only hope, as indigenous Europeans, is that there will be a large majority of moderate peace loving Muslims, too many to be killed by fundamentalists.
It also depends on the funding of fundamentalist groups.

 

[Joyousperson]

Lying, cheating, hating and killing for Allah, basically.

Those aren't teachings of Islam.

The Quran do not directly condone lying and cheating, but permit such in certain conditions when scheming against non-Muslims.

However, hating [antagonistic, showing contempt and the likes] and killing for Allah is very EXPLICITLY commanded in the Quranic verses. Here is only a small sample, there are many such verses. [note context accounted for];

35:26. Then seized I [Allah] those [infidels] who disbelieved, and how intense was My abhorrence!​

2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.​

9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay [kill - faoqtuloo ] the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye [Muslims] find them, and take them [infidels as] (captive), and besiege them [infidels] , and prepare for them [infidels] each ambush. But if they [infidels] repent and establish worship and pay the poor due [zakat], then leave their [infidels] way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Abrogate 2:191] [aka The Sword Verse - Ibn Katheer ]

The term [l-qitālu] is warfare accompanied by a sense of aggression and killing.​

 

[Joyousperson]

This thread has the same exact title and the same exact content that this one does: Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims

That one was shut down for good reason, what's the point in starting another?

The Mod explained, since I am listed as a 'Free Thinker' I cannot post in that section which is only for Fundamental Christians to argue with other Christians. So my post was "Closed."

 

[Joyousperson]

The above is based on bad logic re ad populum fallacy that the past ulema [clerics, scholars] are more right than anyone else.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, vox populi,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").​

The above situation is similar to what is happening within Scientific Knowledge where many of the past popular beliefs have been proven wrong via scientific objective test, verifications and justification based on empirical evidences.

While religious doctrines cannot be tested like scientific knowledge, it can be verified with the most logical and rational approaches based on philosophical tools, e.g. epistemological approaches.

So the point is, while the extremist groups and the likes are probably relying on intuitive subjective approaches, their interpretation of Islam can be verified objectively using philosophical approaches which are more realistic than the so-called moderate majority.

 

[setst777]

Muslims appreciate the Qur'an to the level that they don't quote parts of it like the Christian apologetics do.
A

You write:
<<
Muslims appreciate the Qur'an to the level that they don't quote parts of it like the Christian apologetics do.
>>

setst RE: I gave good examples of how Muslims quote only parts of the Qur'an that show peaceful and inclusive language toward Jews and Christians from Muhammad's earlier revelations while in Mecca. There are many more.

Muslims deliberately neglect to inform their naive listeners that those peaceful verses were abrogated with later verses that curse Christians and Jews, and call for their destruction by Allah through Muhammad and all Muslims.

If you say they weren't abrogated, how does that make sense? Those peaceful and inclusive verses cannot be reconciled with later verses that curse and call for the destruction of Christians and Jews.

The logical conclusion is that Allah did not know that the Christian and Jewish Scriptures contradicted His own revelations until later on. When Allah found out that Christians and Jews disagreed with Allah's revelations, then Allah wanted them subjugated, enslaved, raped and killed.

Obviously then, the Quran is not Allah's revelations at all; but rather, these are the sayings of Muhammad who claimed to be a prophet, but had finite knowledge of what the Jewish and Christian Scriptures actually taught since he could not read them for himself - never learned how to read or write (the unlettered prophet).

You write:
<<
Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) is one that doesn't change. That He says to Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) how He guided the children of Israel is not to say He wanted from the children of Israel something other than to the rest of the peoples. There is no words in the Quran that are just for *someone*. The Qur'an, the entirety of it is for all mankind.
>>

setst RE: These are the words that contemporary Muslims propagate, but that is not the teaching of Allah in the Qur'an.

Allah clearly declares in Qur'an 5:48 that the New Testament and Old Testament Scriptures existed at the time of Muhammad and that the Qur'an confirms them, and is a watcher over them - of which each group of believers (Jews, Christians and Muslims) are to believe in until the end...

Qur'an 5:48 And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture [ma bayna yadayhi: "that which is with you," [the Taurat (Torah) and the Gospel (Injeel)] and [Mohayminan: trustworthy in highness and a witness or watcher] over it (the previous Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.

So, the Jewish and Christian Scriptures were not abrogated, but are rather confirmed and protected by Allah and are in force until the final day.

Yet, Muslims today, in direct violation of the Qur'an and the Islamic Faith, teach that the OT and NT Scriptures are corrupted, thus (in actuality) accusing Allah of being a liar and lacking power to protect His word as He promised in the Qur'an.

Qur'an 10:64 No change can there be in the Words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme victory.

Qur'an 6:34 Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you (O Muhammad ), but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt, till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words of Allah. Surely there has reached you the information (news) about the Messengers (before you).

Qur'an 6:115 And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

Qur'an 10:64 For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present world (i.e. righteous dream seen by the person himself or shown to others), and in the Hereafter. No change can there be in the Words of Allah, this is indeed the supreme triumph.

When Muslims today say that the Scriptures of the Jews and the Scriptures of the Christians have been corrupted, or do not exist today, they are refuting the clear word of Allah in the Qur'an.

When Muslims say that our Scriptures are corrupted, do they mean that Allah was confused, or that Allah did not know the Jewish and Christians Scriptures:

1) were Allah's word?
2) were corrupted?
3) do not exist?

Because, according to the Quran, Allah taught much about the Jewish and Scriptures that existed during the time of Muhammad - that these Scriptures are Allah's word and so cannot be corrupted, and that the Christians and Jews must hold fast to their Scriptures or be lost, and that all Muslims were commanded to believe in all of Allah's word contained in His Books.

Qur'an 3:84 Say: "We (Muslims) believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes,and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Qur'an 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...."

Muhammad had something to say about Muslims (the Muslims of today) that may not be easy for them to hear while, at the same time, confirming the authority and preservation of the Torah and Gospel that was with the Jews and Christians at the time of Muhammad...

Sunan Jami` at-Tirmidhi
[One of "the six books" (Kutub al-Sittah - the six major hadith collections of Sunni Islam]
Volume 5, Book 41, Hadith 2653 (Sahih Narration)

Start of Quote<<
Narrated Jubair bin Nufair: from Abu Ad-Darda who said: "We were with the Prophet (Peace be upon him) when he raised his sight to the sky, then he said: 'This is the time when knowledge is to be taken from the people [Muslims], until what remains of it shall not amount to anything."
So Ziyad bin Labid Al-Ansari said: 'How will it be taken from us [Muslims] while we recite the Qur'an. By Allah we recite it, and our women and children recite it?' He (Peace be upon him) said: 'May you be bereaved of your mother O Ziyad! I used to consider you among the Fuqaha [Jurists] of the people of Al-Madinah. The Tawrah [Torah] and Injil [Gospel] are with the Jews and Christians, but what do they avail of them?'"
Jubair said: "So I met 'Ubadah bin As-Samit and said to him: 'Have you not heard what your brother Abu Ad-Darda said?' Then I informed him of what Abu Ad-Darda said. He said: 'Abu Ad-Darda spoke the truth.
If you wish, we shall narrate to you about the first knowledge to be removed from the people: It is Khushu'[a heart of humble reverence and submission to Allah while offering daily salah (prayers)], soon you will enter the congregational Masjid, but not see any man in it with Khushu'.'"
>>End of Quote

Muhammad rightfully taught here that Muslims would become willfully ignorant because they proudly resist (will not humbly and reverently submit to) what Allah revealed in the Qur'an.

At the same time, notice that Muhammad clearly declares the obvious - that "The Tawrah [Torah] and Injil [Gospel] are still with the Jews and Christians" just as the Qur'an is with the Muslims, even though Muhammad also thought the Jews and Christians and Muslims lacked knowledge.

So, when Muslims attack the Torah and the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come down to us from our Lord, and by which Allah commanded we are to live by to be saved, they are actually publically confessing that they believe only part of Allah's Word and reject the rest?

Qur'an 2:85...Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

So, in summary. . .

Muhammad became hostile to Christians and Jews - because they righteously rejected Muhammad as a prophet for teaching contrary to the true Holy Scriptures - the Old and New Testament Scriptures. And that is why Muslims are hostile to Christians and Jews, and will even deny that Allah protects his Word (Torah and Gospel) in defiance to Allah out of unjustified hatred for Christians and Jews.