Islam Do Not Bash Muslims

[Joyousperson]

Not according to every single study ever done on the subject of why Muslims became Christians. Most attribute their conversion to Christ Himself and/or seeing Christ in others.

I have already shown how you cherry pick verses out of the Qur'an out of context to support your position; earlier you took a post I made out of context to make it sound like I support your position that terrorism is increasing in the world, and here you take a single line out of an article citing several studies on why Muslims become Christians in an attempt to support your position.

So who is the one being dishonest here?


The study listed the reasons of converting in the order of importance. From the two studies that included "dissatisfaction of Islam" in their lists:

J. Dudley Woodberry, Russell G. Shubin, and G. Marks study (2007): "The researchers ranked the order of influences stated by their correspondents on their conversions"

Reinhold Strahler's Study (2009): "Significant factors in all conversion processes, sorted by frequency"

Once again, "dissatisfaction of Islam" wasn't at the top of any lists on any of the studies, so your 99% is incorrect right off the bat. One of the studies even stated: "92% of converts from Islam cited the Biblical Jesus as the focal point of their conversion.

In those studies, "Dissatisfaction with the practice of Islam" included the following: lack of having an intimate relationship with God, assured salvation, and forgiveness of sins. Jesus Christ fulfills all of these things that are missing in Islam, and this is why those dissatisfied with Islam came to Christ. There were some that became Christians because of the oppressive nature of Islam, but Jesus Christ and seeing Christ in others were the primary and overwhelming factors.

Note I did not insist every Muslim who converted to Christianity is based on their understanding of Islam as evil and violent.
I believe most Muslims who converted would be aware of the negatives re evil and violence from the ideology of Islam, but many would not have have cited this fact as the main reason nor even bring it up.
However I have given evidences where Muslims who converted to Christianity cites the evil and violent elements in the ideology of Islam as the main reason they left Islam.

Note you did mention there is a rise in violence as a recent event and that is sufficient to extrapolate that rise into the future and justified by the ongoing numbers of evil and violent attacks by those evil prone Muslims.

Here again you have linked to an "ex-Muslim" who is soliciting for money. This one has a Patreon account and a GoFundme account that he asks people to donate to. He's just parroting the talking points and material of David Wood, Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller. In fact, David Wood even endorses the "ex-Muslim" in the video you shared.

View attachment 257100

I have mentioned these types of "ex-Muslims" in the past:

You have to be careful where you get your information from. You will notice every one of these "ex-Muslims" who have created websites or have Youtube channels are in it for personal gain. When you can show me an ex-Muslim that isn't soliciting for money, trying to sell a book, and/or doesn't have direct connections to notorious anti-Islamic propagandists like David Wood, Pam Geller, or Robert Spencer to name a few, then I might take the time to watch their video and see why they are saying what they are about Islam.

As a missionary working in the Muslim community I have met many ex-Muslims who have become Christians and listened to their testimonies. I also know a few ex-Muslims who are now missionaries taking the gospel to Muslims. None of them say anything like what the "ex-Muslims" in the videos you are sharing are saying about Islam. The reason for this is because they are not seeking fame and fortune like the ones in the videos you share. The ex-Muslims I know are motivated by love for others and not money, so they have no need to slander their former religion.

Christianity need Christians to defend Christianity as a religion against the evil and violence from the ideology of Islam.
To be effective, Christianity need full time Christians who are knowledgeable in the ideology of Islam.
These full time Christians therefore need funds to support their activities.
Note if without Youtube and internet medium, they would have written books or seek donations by other means.
Btw, if these full time Christians do not deserved it, no one will donate since it is voluntarily and not influenced by peer pressure in a church.
Frankly you are insulting your religion again by condemning these full time defenders of the Christianity specifically against Islam.

It is possible there are cheats and fraudsters who relied on rhetoric and charisma, but I am certain the ones I mentioned are not because what they expressed can be objectively verified by any one.

All Muslims desire to achieve taqwa, so what? It just means that a Muslim submits their life to Allah and his statutes and in turn he increases them in guidance leading them away from sin and towards a more righteous life. It's an ongoing process in every Muslims life. It's very similar to the concept of sanctification in Christianity.

Note submit is not sufficient. It show your knowledge of Islam is not deep.

Note;

40:14. The wandering Arabs [3RB: l-aʿrābu; Arabs] say: We believe [amanna].
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not [AMN: tumino], but rather say `We submit [SLM: aslama],' for the faith [ AMN: l-imanu] hath not yet entered into your hearts [qulūbikum]. Yet, if ye [Bedouins] obey [TW3: tuṭīʿū] Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.​

Muslims has entered into a covenant to obey the covenanted terms of Allah and Messenger in the Quran and the Ahadith.

Objectively, the best Muslims striving towards Tagwa will need to comply more serious with more of the stipulated terms of the covenants from the Quran and other texts.

There are 6236 verses in the Quran and all the terms to be complied with are within these 6236 verses.

These verses contain verses that exhort Muslims to kill and oppress non-Muslim under vague conditions and lend themselves into a STALEMATE and enabling real evil and violent acts to be committed without any human being able to judge who is right or wrong.

The reality is there is a pool of 320 millions evil prone Muslims with an active evil tendency, thus can turn violent any time the slightest threat is perceived. This reality of evil and violent from these evil prone Muslim is so evident and glaring.

The definition of chaos is complete disorder and confusion. Either we are not living in the same world, or you are spending too much time watching the news and reading negative stories on the internet. We are living in the most peaceful time in human history. If the world was in chaos, that wouldn't be possible.

Chaos is a loose term and there are degrees of chaos.

 

[Joyousperson]

I left when I decided to reject Islam a few years ago, not that I was ever Muslim to begin with as it’s something forced on you when your born into a Muslim family. I reject the label ex Muslim, but deciding to reject Islam was after I grew dissatisfied with the teachings of the religion itself and it’s controversial history and the disturbing life of its prophet. I only later decided to convert to Christianity after a while of searching through different religions.

Thanks for your response which in a way support my thesis, i.e. the evil and violent elements are so evident in the Quran and Ahadith and justified with real evidences of acts of Muslims who shouted Allah-u-Akbar and verses from the Quran and Ahadith.

 

[JosephZ]

Note I did not insist every Muslim who converted to Christianity is based on their understanding of Islam as evil and violent.
I believe most Muslims who converted would be aware of the negatives re evil and violence from the ideology of Islam, but many would not have have cited this fact as the main reason nor even bring it up.

This is pure speculation on your part, and without support.

However I have given evidences where Muslims who converted to Christianity cites the evil and violent elements in the ideology of Islam as the main reason they left Islam.

I'm sure that there are some who have left Islam for that reason, but the percentage would be minuscule as study after study has shown. You have provided links to "ex-Muslims" who are seeking internet fame and profit.

Note you did mention there is a rise in violence as a recent event and that is sufficient to extrapolate that rise into the future and justified by the ongoing numbers of evil and violent attacks by those evil prone Muslims.

Throughout history the frequency of terrorist attacks has waxed and waned and the primary ideologies behind them change as well. Since Islamic extremism and terrorism on the scale we have seen since 9/11 is a recent phenomenon, that is 100% proof positive that the religion of Islam was not the culprit. After all, the Qur'an and other Islamic texts weren't rewritten within the past 20 years. If Islam was at the root cause, then the terrorism we have seen post 9/11 would have revealed its self much earlier.

Christianity need Christians to defend Christianity as a religion against the evil and violence from the ideology of Islam.
These full time Christians therefore need funds to support their activities.
Note if without Youtube and internet medium, they would have written books or seek donations by other means.
Frankly you are insulting your religion again by condemning these full time defenders of the Christianity specifically against Islam.

Here is how the Bible tells me to defend my faith.

"In your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" (1 Peter 3:15)

The "ex-Muslims" you have linked to are tied either directly or indirectly to David Wood and his "ministry".

Here is a short video of David Wood's Acts 17 Apologetics team "defending their faith" at an Arab festival. Do you think carrying a pigs head on a stick and insulting people, including children, represents true Christianity?

The "ex-Muslims" you linked to are often rude and use foul language in their videos when "defending" Christianity. They slander the religion of 1.8+ billion people in the world and often insult them as well.

Who's Insulting Christianity again?

Btw, if these full time Christians do not deserved it, no one will donate since it is voluntarily and not influenced by peer pressure in a church.

The reason people donate to these types of youtube channels and websites is because many have been falsely led to believe that we are in a war with Islam. They see the people behind these websites as soldiers in this fight and that's why they send them money.

To be effective, Christianity need full time Christians who are knowledgeable in the ideology of Islam.

The people behind these youtube channels and websites may or may not be knowledgeable in Islam. If they are, then they are intentionally lying to people. I continue to study Islam to this day so that I may more effective at reaching Muslims with the gospel. Prior to God appointing me as a missionary, I had already studied Islam through taking courses in Islamic Studies from various schools of thought, so all along and without my understanding, God had been preparing me for the mission he assigned me to today. The people behind those videos and websites are deceiving you.

It is possible there are cheats and fraudsters who relied on rhetoric and charisma, but I am certain the ones I mentioned are not because what they expressed can be objectively verified by any one.

You don't know anything about the people in those videos except what they tell you. Some give fake names like Christian Prince and you have no way of verifying a word they say. You can't be certain about anything they say or do. The material they share and verses they pull out of the Qur'an are the exact same ones the anti-Islamic propagandists use. You feel they are being objectively verified because they support your position. Muslims and those who know what Islam teaches can recognize their errors. I suggest you visit a mosque or an Islamic center in your community and watch the videos with some of the Muslims there. They will tell you the same things I have told you here.

Note submit is not sufficient. It show your knowledge of Islam is not deep.... We believe [amanna].
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not [AMN: tumino], but rather say `We submit [SLM: aslama],' for the faith [ AMN: l-imanu] hath not yet entered into your hearts [qulūbikum]. Yet, if ye [Bedouins] obey [TW3: tuṭīʿū] Allah and His messenger,
Muslims has entered into a covenant to obey the covenanted terms of Allah and Messenger in the Quran and the Ahadith.

Here is my comment again:

All Muslims desire to achieve taqwa, so what? It just means that a Muslim submits their life to Allah and his statutes and in turn he increases them in guidance leading them away from sin and towards a more righteous life. It's an ongoing process in every Muslims life. It's very similar to the concept of sanctification in Christianity.

I summarized exactly what that verse says, A Muslim submits their life to Allah (Yields to his authority) and his statutes (laws and decrees). In other words, taqwa is when a Muslim believes in Allah, submits their life to him, and follows his laws and decrees; i.e. obeys.

Please read my posts ore closely.

Objectively, the best Muslims striving towards Tagwa will need to comply more serious with more of the stipulated terms of the covenants from the Quran and other texts.

Yes, this is true and they also know how to put the words of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts into historical context.

These verses contain verses that exhort Muslims to kill and oppress non-Muslim under vague conditions and lend themselves into a STALEMATE and enabling real evil and violent acts to be committed without any human being able to judge who is right or wrong.

Once again, unlike Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists, Muslims know how to put the words of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts into historical context. This is why 99.99% of the world's Muslims are not involved in violent jihad.

Chaos is a loose term and there are degrees of chaos.

The world is not in chaos today by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Barney2.0]

I see that you are 18 years old and living in Saudi Arabia. First off, I'm happy to hear that you decided to follow Jesus.

Have you always lived in Saudi Arabia? The reason I ask is because the brand of Islam you would be exposed to in that country doesn't reflect on all of Islam and how it is taught elsewhere. In Saudi Arabia, as you know, the government pushes their extreme interpretation of Islam through propaganda and even requires it to be taught in the schools there. Unfortunately this brand of Islam is exported from Saudi Arabia with the aid of the Saudi government, so it's affects can be felt far and wide.

Thank you for your words, but you know Saudi is not as extreme or as violent as real Islam would look like or be, it might be the closest we’d see to an ideal Islamic state, but still a bit off in certain ways. However the Saudi legal code is done by Sharia law nothing is taken out of context or done unsupported by Islamic sources. Saudi tries its best to implement Islam to the book whenever it can, so why you blaming Saudi for pushing an extreme form of Islam, they’re just following the Quran and Sunnah at the end of the day. If you want to blame something blame the source that inspired them to implement Islam as it truly is, don’t blame them for trying to implement Islam as it truly is and as best as possible in the modern world.

 

[JosephZ]

If you want to blame something blame the source that inspired them to implement Islam as it truly is, don’t blame them for trying to implement Islam as it truly is and as best as possible in the modern world.

Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam.

The judicial system is largely governed by Shari’ah as interpreted by judges trained as religious scholars in the Hanbali Sunni school of jurisprudence... The government restricts most forms of public religious expression inconsistent with its interpretation of Sunni Islam. Saudi officials base these restrictions on their interpretation of hadith (sayings of the Prophet), stating that such a stance is what is expected of them as the country that hosts the two holiest mosques in Islam, in Mecca and Medina.

The vast majority of Muslims in the world don't interpret the Qur'an and other Islamic texts in the way the Saudi government does. The Hanbali school was founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal in the 9th century and it's practice is found primarily in the Salafists and Wahhabists movements. Followers of this school of thought are mainly found in Saudi Arabia and fewer than 5% of Muslims adhere to it. It's been rejected by most of the world's Muslim population and many Muslims don't even consider Salafis or Wahhabists to be Muslims.

Wahhabism, the official religion of Saudi Arabia, is an exceptionally virulent, narrow and militant interpretation of Islam based on the teachings of an austere 18th-century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). Over time, it has morphed into an all-encompassing politico-religious theology that considers all other faith groups deviant, has no tolerance for other cultures, no respect for human rights, no love for democracy and an abiding distaste of Western values. It is harsh, puritanical, unforgiving and violent.

The ultimate goal of Wahhabism is one global community with one creed (Wahhabism) ruled by one Khalifah (ruler), presumably the House of Saud. It makes for a grand strategy not just for hegemony in the Middle East but for global domination.

Over the last few decades, Saudi Arabia has spent more than US$100 billion exporting Wahhabism to all corners of the globe. Thousands of mosques, seminaries, universities, schools and community centers have been built, while thousands of preachers, teachers and activists have been educated, trained and dispatched across the world along with Wahhabi-approved textbooks and other literature.

Government and non-governmental sources claimed that financial support estimated at nearly 100 million USD annually was making its way to Deobandi and Ahl-e-Hadith clerics in the region from “missionary” and “Islamic charitable” organizations in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ostensibly with the direct support of those governments.

The network reportedly exploited worsening poverty in these areas of the province to recruit children into the divisions’ growing Deobandi and Ahl-eHadith madrassa network from which they were indoctrinated into jihadi philosophy, deployed to regional training/indoctrination centers, and ultimately sent to terrorist training camps in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).

You Can’t Understand ISIS If You Don’t Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

 

[Joyousperson]

Thank you for your words, but you know Saudi is not as extreme or as violent as real Islam would like, it might be the closest we’d see to an ideal Islamic state, but still a bit off in certain ways.
However the Saudi legal code is done by Sharia law nothing is taken out of context or done unsupported by Islamic sources. Saudi tries its best to implement Islam to the book whenever it can, so why you blaming Saudi for pushing an extreme form of Islam, they’re just following the Quran and Sunnah at the end of the day.
If you want to blame something blame the source that inspired them to implement Islam as it truly is, don’t blame them for trying to implement Islam as it truly is and as best as possible in the modern world.

Wow.. you truly "hit that nail on the head."

As I had stated a Muslims is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah and is obliged to comply with all the covenanted terms in the Quran and Ahadith to the best of his ability.

There are 6236 verses in the Quran.
We can use these 6236 verses as a checklist each to be ticked whether the Muslim comply with how many of the verses.
If a Muslim agree and comply with all the 6236 verses, then, we can conclude objectively he is a 100% Muslim in terms of the Quran.
We can do the say for the Ahadiths.

My rough findings and estimate is this;

1. The moderates comply with 40% of the 6236 verses.
2. Saudi Arabia comply with 75% of the verses
3. I.S.I.S comply with 90% of the verses of the Quran
4. The one who comply with 100% of the verses of the Quran would be the most genuine Muslim and I bet he will do worst evil than I.S.I.S
​

The above is very objective.
The above can be done by getting Muslims [sufficient numbers] to tick off the checklist of the 6236 verses of the Quran and the verses of the Ahadiths.

Some Muslims will bring in the historical context factor but note the reality of the STALEMATE dilemma which would still enable terrible evil and violent acts to be committed by SOME from a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims.

The moderates comply with only 40% of the 6236 verses is because they are merely lay-Muslims and not serious Muslims. They are ignorant of the verses of pure Islam and they are more influenced by their progressive human nature.

 

[Joyousperson]

This is pure speculation on your part, and without support.

It so obvious to the world and Muslims that SOME [from a pool of 320 million evil prone] Muslims had committed terrible evil and violent acts and quoting verses from the Quran and Ahadith, and in the name and to defend Islam.
Those Muslims who converted to Christianity would definitely be informed of the above thus will be one of the reasons [major or minor] why they converted to Christianity.

I'm sure that there are some who have left Islam for that reason, but the percentage would be minuscule as study after study has shown. You have provided links to "ex-Muslims" who are seeking internet fame and profit.

You ignored other sources that I have provided, e.g. those thousands who were victims of I.S.I.S and had converted to Christianity.

Throughout history the frequency of terrorist attacks has waxed and waned and the primary ideologies behind them change as well. Since Islamic extremism and terrorism on the scale we have seen since 9/11 is a recent phenomenon, that is 100% proof positive that the religion of Islam was not the culprit. After all, the Qur'an and other Islamic texts weren't rewritten within the past 20 years. If Islam was at the root cause, then the terrorism we have seen post 9/11 would have revealed its self much earlier.

It is the same for diseases and major epidemics that has waxed and wane throughout history. Note measles, ebola, smallpox, TB, and other dangerous diseases that are a threat with the malignant bacteria and viruses that cannot be eliminated by strike whenever the opportunity arises from spots of weaknesses.

It is the same with Islam with its very malignant inherent ethos of the evil and violent against humanity. This malignancy will be trigger whenever that are spots of weaknesses and there are lots of them around the world.
Obama was a weak spot that enable the Muslim Brotherhood to infiltrate the WhiteHouse, and fortunately Trump has not disinfected it. Obama also facilitated the creation of I.S.I.S.
The malignancy of Islam is spreading all over the world at the present and the evidence is so glaring.

Note the very predictable scale of the corelation between the % of Muslims and the % of evil and violent acts in any locations.


[/quote]Here is how the Bible tells me to defend my faith.

"In your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" (1 Peter 3:15)[/quote]
What matter is the truth must prevails regardless of how it is delivered, preferably without negative emotions.

You are not acknowledging the truths of the 3400++ evil and violent verses in the Quran and the dilemma of the stalemate that results in avoidable real terrible evil and violent acts by SOME evil prone Muslims committed on innocent non-Muslims in the name of Islam.

The "ex-Muslims" you have linked to are tied either directly or indirectly to David Wood and his "ministry".

Here is a short video of David Wood's Acts 17 Apologetics team "defending their faith" at an Arab festival. Do you think carrying a pigs head on a stick and insulting people, including children, represents true Christianity?

I thought you are obliged to tell the truth?
The above video is not from David Wood's Acts 17 and there is no evidence they approve of the negative acts within the video.

[/quote]The "ex-Muslims" you linked to are often rude and use foul language in their videos when "defending" Christianity. They slander the religion of 1.8+ billion people in the world and often insult them as well.

Who's Insulting Christianity again?[/quote]
Those who critique Islam which I have linked, critique by referencing to verses in the Quran and Ahadiths, thus objective.
If Islam is inherently evil and violent, telling the truth of it as such is not a slander.
Prove to me, telling the truth of an ideology is slander.
Yes, the truth hurts but it is not the fault of those critique to told the truth.

You are insulting Christianity by not telling the truth.

The reason people donate to these types of youtube channels and websites is because many have been falsely led to believe that we are in a war with Islam. They see the people behind these websites as soldiers in this fight and that's why they send them money.

Problem is you are always making sweeping statements.
The critiques I have referenced always refer to the sources of Islam and show them on screen. People may donated to them for various reason but the intellectual integrity of the critiques l linked are intact.

I will never reference any critique who just speak his mind without any reference to the source within my sight [i.e. on screen] which i and verify myself.

The people behind these youtube channels and websites may or may not be knowledgeable in Islam. If they are, then they are intentionally lying to people. I continue to study Islam to this day so that I may more effective at reaching Muslims with the gospel. Prior to God appointing me as a missionary, I had already studied Islam through taking courses in Islamic Studies from various schools of thought, so all along and without my understanding, God had been preparing me for the mission he assigned me to today. The people behind those videos and websites are deceiving you.

How can you be so ignorant and blind and lying.
How can David Wood and CP be lying when they read off the references on screen from the original sources of Islam?
If you are doubtful you can fact check by reading the sources they mentioned from any reliable books cited or Islamic sites.

You don't know anything about the people in those videos except what they tell you. Some give fake names like Christian Prince and you have no way of verifying a word they say. You can't be certain about anything they say or do. The material they share and verses they pull out of the Qur'an are the exact same ones the anti-Islamic propagandists use. You feel they are being objectively verified because they support your position. Muslims and those who know what Islam teaches can recognize their errors. I suggest you visit a mosque or an Islamic center in your community and watch the videos with some of the Muslims there. They will tell you the same things I have told you here.

I have explained above.
They cannot be lying because they are quoting the reference on the screen visible to all and which is available to any one to fact check the sources on their own.

If I visit any mosques or discuss with any Muslim I would definitely expect them to quote the Quran and Ahadith in its full context. They will have to show me how they can resolve the STALEMATE and dilemma I have raised.
The first thing is they must be aware is they as human being cannot judge Allah's words at all thus do not have authority to insist Muslims who do not agree with them are wrong.

Btw, if I were to discuss with a moderate Muslim I can easily convinced him/her to the truer Islam that is more evil and violent by invoking "Are your really saved?" and that to be more secure of salvation, a Muslim must comply fully with the Quran and Ahadith, plus the Quran is not a history book but perfected as doctrine of Islam.

Here is my comment again:

I summarized exactly what that verse says, A Muslim submits their life to Allah (Yields to his authority) and his statutes (laws and decrees). In other words, taqwa is when a Muslim believes in Allah, submits their life to him, and follows his laws and decrees; i.e. obeys.

Please read my posts ore closely.

Obeying he statutes = laws and decrees meant
including complying with the loads of evil and violent elements [3400++ or 55% of the Quran] and those in the Ahadith.
Note the avoidable STALEMATE dilemma, thus the real consequences of evil and violent acts by SOME from a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims.

Yes, this is true and they also know how to put the words of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts into historical context.

I insist the Quran is not a history book but a perfected doctrine of covenanted terms for all Muslim to comply with.
Even if I agree to the historical elements [in reality I don't] there is still the 20% i.e. 320 million of Muslims who do not take it in the historical context. In this case, the evil and violent ethos is still manifested by these evil prone Muslims as real terrible evil and violent acts.

Once again, unlike Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists, Muslims know how to put the words of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts into historical context. This is why 99.99% of the world's Muslims are not involved in violent jihad.

I say again, the Quran is not a history book.
It is perfected 5:3 as a doctrine of Islam with decrees and commands [where 55% of the verses contain evil and violent elements] to be complied by all Muslims.
This is confirmed by the voluminous, terrible real empirical acts of evil and violence by SOME Muslims from a pool of 320 milions.

Note again, the evils and violent acts committed by SOME Muslims as inpired by Islam directly is not merely terrorist acts. The evil acts comprised of a gamut and range of terrible evil acts from mild to the the extreme of genocides.

Your 99.99% is toothless.
I have stated the critical danger and threat arise from the malignant combination of the loads of evil and violent elements within Islam influencing a natural percentile of 320 million evil prone Muslims.

The world is not in chaos today by any stretch of the imagination.

Sweeping statement again. If there is no chaos then it must be peaceful?

Fact and reality is the world is a mixed of chaos and peace, i.e. my guess, 60% chaos and 40% peaceful in various contexts. There is no much tensions, political, trade, cultural, religion, etc., around the world.

 

[Barney2.0]

Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam.

The judicial system is largely governed by Shari’ah as interpreted by judges trained as religious scholars in the Hanbali Sunni school of jurisprudence... The government restricts most forms of public religious expression inconsistent with its interpretation of Sunni Islam. Saudi officials base these restrictions on their interpretation of hadith (sayings of the Prophet), stating that such a stance is what is expected of them as the country that hosts the two holiest mosques in Islam, in Mecca and Medina.

The vast majority of Muslims in the world don't interpret the Qur'an and other Islamic texts in the way the Saudi government does. The Hanbali school was founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal in the 9th century and it's practice is found primarily in the Salafists and Wahhabists movements. Followers of this school of thought are mainly found in Saudi Arabia and fewer than 5% of Muslims adhere to it. It's been rejected by most of the world's Muslim population and many Muslims don't even consider Salafis or Wahhabists to be Muslims.

Wahhabism, the official religion of Saudi Arabia, is an exceptionally virulent, narrow and militant interpretation of Islam based on the teachings of an austere 18th-century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). Over time, it has morphed into an all-encompassing politico-religious theology that considers all other faith groups deviant, has no tolerance for other cultures, no respect for human rights, no love for democracy and an abiding distaste of Western values. It is harsh, puritanical, unforgiving and violent.
https://www.ucanews.com/news/the-wahhabi-threat-to-southeast-asia/73276
The ultimate goal of Wahhabism is one global community with one creed (Wahhabism) ruled by one Khalifah (ruler), presumably the House of Saud. It makes for a grand strategy not just for hegemony in the Middle East but for global domination.
https://www.ucanews.com/news/the-wahhabi-threat-to-southeast-asia/73276
Over the last few decades, Saudi Arabia has spent more than US$100 billion exporting Wahhabism to all corners of the globe. Thousands of mosques, seminaries, universities, schools and community centers have been built, while thousands of preachers, teachers and activists have been educated, trained and dispatched across the world along with Wahhabi-approved textbooks and other literature.

Government and non-governmental sources claimed that financial support estimated at nearly 100 million USD annually was making its way to Deobandi and Ahl-e-Hadith clerics in the region from “missionary” and “Islamic charitable” organizations in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ostensibly with the direct support of those governments.

The network reportedly exploited worsening poverty in these areas of the province to recruit children into the divisions’ growing Deobandi and Ahl-eHadith madrassa network from which they were indoctrinated into jihadi philosophy, deployed to regional training/indoctrination centers, and ultimately sent to terrorist training camps in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).

You Can’t Understand ISIS If You Don’t Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

The Hanbali school of thought is one of the four schools of Orthodox Sunni Islam and isn’t that different to the other three schools of thought in major rulings, theology, or in interpretations of the Quran and Sunnah. You should also check your numbers it is much bigger then 5% of Muslims, it’s also the most common form of Islam spreading in the West currently:

But in any case it doesn’t matter how many Muslims follow it or not, it’s still Orthodox Islam. Also there’s no such thing as Wahhabism it’s called Salafism, the following of the early Muslim community, I’d challenge you to find one Saudi Sheikh or Salafi that actually calls himself a Wahhabi. There’s no such thing as Wahhabism it’s real Salafi Islam from the sources nothing more. Can you please tell us or show us where Saudi and Salafi Muslims got it wrong in interpreting the Quran and Sunnah with sources and an example?

 

[JosephZ]

The Hanbali school of thought is one of the four schools of Orthodox Sunni Islam and isn’t that different to the other three schools of thought in major rulings, theology, or in interpretations of the Quran and Sunnah.

The differences are significant. You only have to look at the way things are done in Saudi Arabia compared to the rest of the Muslim world to see that.

Also there’s no such thing as Wahhabism it’s called Salafism, the following of the early Muslim community, I’d challenge you to find one Saudi Sheikh or Salafi that actually calls himself a Wahhabi.

It exists, and I already know it's followers do not call or consider themselves to be Wahhabists. There are Wahhabi Missionaries working in the same communities I do here in Mindanao. They prefer to be called either Salafis or Muwahhidun. Fortunately very few Muslims here are buying what they are selling.

That map you provided doesn't really give any detail as far as percentages or what high, medium, and low represents. High compared to what? Low compared to what? It's pretty useless and looks more ominous than what is actually taking place on the ground in those countries, even in Saudi Arabia most Muslims don't follow Salafism/Wahhabism.

Can you please tell us or show us where Saudi and Salafi Muslims got it wrong in interpreting the Quran and Sunnah with sources and an example?

It would be a waste of time as many threads I have participated in here have shown.

The Hanbali school of thought is one of the four schools of Orthodox Sunni Islam and isn’t that different to the other three schools of thought in major rulings, theology, or in interpretations of the Quran and Sunnah. You should also check your numbers it is much bigger then 5% of Muslims,

Living in Saudi Arabia it may seem that way, but it may not even be 5%. I was probably being too generous with that percentage.

Today, the five schools of Islamic thought accepted by all Muslims are the Ja'fari, comprising 23% of the Muslims; the Hanafi, comprising 31% of the Muslims; the Maliki, comprising 25% of the Muslims; the Shafi'i, comprising 16% of the Muslims; and the Hanbali, comprising 4% of the Muslims. The remaining small percentage follow other minority schools, such as the Zaydi and the Isma'ili.

it’s also the most common form of Islam spreading in the West currently:

Yes, it's like a cancer and it's spreading because Saudi Arabia is spending billions of dollars sending out missionaries, providing scholarships, and building schools around the globe teaching this brand of Islam.

I asked you earlier how long you have been living in Saudi, have you always lived there?

 

[Joyousperson]

Living in Saudi Arabia it may seem that way, but it may not even be 5%. I was probably being too generous with that percentage.

Today, the five schools of Islamic thought accepted by all Muslims are the Ja'fari, comprising 23% of the Muslims; the Hanafi, comprising 31% of the Muslims; the Maliki, comprising 25% of the Muslims; the Shafi'i, comprising 16% of the Muslims; and the Hanbali, comprising 4% of the Muslims. The remaining small percentage follow other minority schools, such as the Zaydi and the Isma'ili.

4%?? You have the tendency to be hasty and bias, your data is from 1998, 21 years ago.

Where we are now more informed with the internet and communications, note the recent with recent stats, Hanbali is 20%. See this link.

Islamic Sects, Schools, Branches & Movements — Information is Beautiful

As Al Masihi had stated the schools of thought is not critical. What is critical is the orthodoxy, i.e. fundamentalism and the natural evil prone Muslims within Islam itself and present in the whole Muslim population.

The natural percentage as demonstrated is at least 20% conservatively and that is a pool of 320* millions evil prone Muslims.
* subject to refinements which are not critical to the significant of the total.

Can you please tell us or show us where Saudi and Salafi Muslims got it wrong in interpreting the Quran and Sunnah with sources and an example?

It would be a waste of time as many threads I have participated in here have shown.

You are running away from the above truths.

As I had stated many times, a Muslims is one who has entered into a covenant [contract] with Allah with the obligation to comply with all the covenanted terms as in the Quran [6,236 verses] and the Ahadiths [appx. 27,000 verses].

Objectively, the degree of Muslim-ness or Islam-ness of a Muslim is determined by the number of % of the verses in the Quran and Ahadiths, s/he had complied with.
This can be easily done [with a computer], i.e. take the Quran's 6236 and Ahadith's 27,000 verses as a checklist and each Muslim to tick them one by one.
Allah being all knowing and all-powerful would have no problem determining who is the better Muslim who is obliged to the following;

20:75. But whoso cometh unto Him a believer, having done good works [l-ṣāliḥāti], for such are the high stations [DRJ; l-darajātu; rank]

66:9. O Prophet! [NBA: l-nabiyu] Strive [JHD: jāhidi] against the disbelievers [KFR; kuffar; infidels] and the hypocrites [NFQ; munafiqin], and be stern with them [infidels]

2:216. Warfare [l-qitālu] is ordained [kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good [Khayr] for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad [ShaRR] for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

9:29. Fight [l-qitālu] against

such of those [infidels] who have been given the Scripture [Jews & Christians]
[such] as [those infidels who] believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and
[such] as [those infidels who] forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and
[such] as [those infidels who] follow not the religion [deena] of truth,​

until

they [infidels] pay the tribute [Jizya, aljizyata] readily, being brought low [SGhR; ṣāghirīna: subdued].​

9:29 is not a historical thing but a universal doctrinal principle of Islam, i.e. a covenanted term all Muslims must abide with.
l-qitālu translated as warfare is a bit milder from the actual Arabic meaning. l-qitālu denote killing in an aggressive manner with an essence of evil.

Note the details [] I have put into the above verses, the parsing for easier reading, the cross referencing, etc. I have done for almost all the verses in the Quran.​

Note the above is merely a sampling of verses, but taken within the context of the 3400 evil laden verses and the ethos of the whole Quran, they represent the essence of the divine duty [one of] of a genuine Muslim of being a Mushin with Taqwa.

The fact is there are loads of evil and violent elements in the Quran [3400++ or 55% of the 6236 verses], an it is worst in the Ahadith.
Note the fact of the STALEMATE that is unavoidable which will result in inevitable evil and violent acts by SOME from the pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims.

 

[Barney2.0]

The differences are significant. You only have to look at the way things are done in Saudi Arabia compared to the rest of the Muslim world to see that.


It exists, and I already know it's followers do not call or consider themselves to be Wahhabists. There are Wahhabi Missionaries working in the same communities I do here in Mindanao. They prefer to be called either Salafis or Muwahhidun. Fortunately very few Muslims here are buying what they are selling.

That map you provided doesn't really give any detail as far as percentages or what high, medium, and low represents. High compared to what? Low compared to what? It's pretty useless and looks more ominous than what is actually taking place on the ground in those countries, even in Saudi Arabia most Muslims don't follow Salafism/Wahhabism.


It would be a waste of time as many threads I have participated in here have shown.


Living in Saudi Arabia it may seem that way, but it may not even be 5%. I was probably being too generous with that percentage.

Today, the five schools of Islamic thought accepted by all Muslims are the Ja'fari, comprising 23% of the Muslims; the Hanafi, comprising 31% of the Muslims; the Maliki, comprising 25% of the Muslims; the Shafi'i, comprising 16% of the Muslims; and the Hanbali, comprising 4% of the Muslims. The remaining small percentage follow other minority schools, such as the Zaydi and the Isma'ili.


Yes, it's like a cancer and it's spreading because Saudi Arabia is spending billions of dollars sending out missionaries, providing scholarships, and building schools around the globe teaching this brand of Islam.

I asked you earlier how long you have been living in Saudi, have you always lived there?

We’re talking about doctrine here not how things are done by Muslims, ultimately everything lies on the sources. You obviously don’t know anything about the other three schools of Sunni Islam and the reason things are done differently in other Islamic countries is because the sharia is not applied fully, it’s way of application depends on where you are depending on how secular the country is. Salafi is the official doctrine of the stage of Saudi Arabia, if most people didn’t like it then it wouldn’t still be the state doctrine would it? Some Saudis obviously don’t like, but they don’t have much say in the matter. The map compares the Salafi trend of Islam among the general Islamic community and how popular it is, high obviously means it’s highly popular in those respective countries and low means it’s not that followed by the general Muslim community, but the fact it’s highly popular in many Islamic countries is rather alarming. All major Islamic preachers that I can think of were Salafis, Zakir Naik, Yusuf Estes, Abderahman green, Ahmed Deedat is identified as a Salafi, but his personal beliefs leave me skeptical of which specific sect he followed. But as I said it’s not how many Muslims follow it, it’s is if Islam as practiced by Salafis violates or deviates from historical Islam as we know it, which it doesn’t. T

 

[JosephZ]

Salafi is the official doctrine of the stage of Saudi Arabia, if most people didn’t like it then it wouldn’t still be the state doctrine would it? Some Saudis obviously don’t like, but they don’t have much say in the matter.

The people have no say in the matter because Saudi Arabia is a monarchy and as long as that's the case, things will likely remain the same. It's not in place because the majority of the population likes it or approves of it.

How long have you lived in Saudi Arabia?

The map compares the Salafi trend of Islam among the general Islamic community and how popular it is, high obviously means it’s highly popular in those respective countries and low means it’s not that followed by the general Muslim community,

Can you provide a source showing a key to that map. Salfi Islam isn't popular in any of those countries.

the fact it’s highly popular in many Islamic countries is rather alarming.

It's not.

 

[JosephZ]

if I were to discuss with a moderate Muslim I can easily convinced him/her to the truer Islam that is more evil and violent by invoking "Are your really saved?" and that to be more secure of salvation, a Muslim must comply fully with the Quran and Ahadith, plus the Quran is not a history book but perfected as doctrine of Islam.

Good luck with that. Extremist have been preaching that to Muslims for centuries and they haven't been able to convince even 1% of the Muslim world yet.

Fact and reality is the world is a mixed of chaos and peace, i.e. my guess, 60% chaos and 40% peaceful in various contexts. There is no much tensions, political, trade, cultural, religion, etc., around the world.

According to this report about 840 million people, or 12% of the world population, lived in conflict zones in 2016: https://www.prio.org/utility/DownloadFile.ashx?id=1550&type=publicationfile This means that 88% of the world's population live in peaceful regions. This would not be possible if the world was in chaos. Even in regions of conflict, there are still areas peace and tranquility to be found. The world is a pretty orderly place considering there are more than 7 billion people from such vastly different cultures on this planet.

4%?? You have the tendency to be hasty and bias, your data is from 1998, 21 years ago.

Where we are now more informed with the internet and communications, note the recent with recent stats, Hanbali is 20%. See this link.

Islamic Sects, Schools, Branches & Movements — Information is Beautiful

Most sources cite somewhere around 5% and this was the percentage in the last Islamic course I took in 2017. Below are a couple of more recent sources to be found online:

The world’s 1.6 Billion Muslim population can be approximately divided into the following main sects:
1) Hanafi Sunni Muslims : 35%
2) Shafei Sunni Muslim : 25%
3) Shia Muslims : 20%
4) Maliki Sunni Muslims : 15%
5) Hambali Sunni Muslims: 4%
6) Salafi Muslims : 1%

The Hanbali school was founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal in the 9th century. It is primarily found in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and has some presence in the countries surrounding the KSA, such as Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Yemen, and Oman. It is the smallest Sunni school by far, estimated to contain fewer than 5% of the world’s Muslims as adherents, but as they are concentrated in areas of great wealth and power it has a stronger influence on global Islamic thought than might be expected.

That link you shared doesn't show that 20% of Muslims adhere to the Hanbali school of thought. It shows 15% of Sunni Muslims follow the Hanbali school of thought. According to your source 10 to 12% of the world's Muslims follow the Hanbali school of thought rather than 20%.

I question that site, because first, it's called "informationisbeautiful." It's just a site that provides info-graphics. It's not a site that concentrates on Islam or world religions. Secondly, I couldn't find any other source online that puts the number at more than 5%. And finally, I checked the sources the site used to come to that conclusion (Wikipedia, Pew Research, the Gale Encyclopaedia of Religion) and none of them give a percentage of how many Muslims adhere to the Hanbali school of thought.

Regardless of whether it's 4% or as much as 12%, it's only a small minority of the Muslim world that adheres to the Hanbali school of thought.

 

[Joyousperson]

Good luck with that. Extremist have been preaching that to Muslims for centuries and they haven't been able to convince even 1% of the Muslim world yet.

Your 1% of extremists is a toothless figure. Btw 1% = 16 million still a significant quantum!
It is not a question of what the present so-called extremists are doing.

There is an inherent evil, violent and malignant essence within the ideology of Islam, i.e. the 6236 verses of the Quran and verses from the Ahadith.
A Muslim is one who is covenanted with Allah to comply with the above verses.

As I had argued there is a trend of the heightening of the sense of the desperation for salvation to paradise with eternal life and this is correlated with the zeal for greater compliance to as many of the covenanted terms which included loads of evil and violent verses in the Quran, i.e. 3400++ negatively directed at the non-Muslims.

Point is when they are more zealous to comply with more the covenanted terms, their behaviors are equated as an extremists. It is not so much of the extremists preaching them to be extremists.

That Muslims become extremists is because of the nature of the ideology of Islam and the greater zeal of the Muslims to comply with the covenanted terms.

Note this 2017 Pew Research which show the preference for Sharia Laws which imbued with evils and violence toward non-Muslims. There are many countries with > 70% and I approximate the average to be 40% all across the 1.5 b of Muslims.
I bet you do not understand the full impact of the acceptance of and by so many Muslims and the evil and violent on non-Muslims from the Sharia Law.

Note those who support the acts of I.S.I.S;
Note Indonesia indicates only 4% but it has a population of around 200 million Muslims.

You only defense for being an apologetic of Islam is that there are only 1% of Muslims who are extremists. This is baseless and toothless as I have show above.

One of my point is, the ideology of Islam is inherently [a large part] evil, violent and malignant where a Muslim is bound to and must comply with in his/her covenant with Allah.

I have already argued there is a natural pool of 20% or 320 million of evil prone Muslims who are easily triggered to commit the obligated evil and violent acts.

Note under the desperation of salvation and for eternal life, a Muslim will do whatever it takes to please Allah and given the STALEMATE, the evil and violent acts from Muslims against non-Muslims are inevitable.

Therefore you cannot insist Islam is a peaceful religion but you have to recognize the fact Islam is inherently [large part] evil, violent and malignant.

 

[BioLeap]

One of the greatest misunderstanding in discussing the issue of Islamic-based terror, evil and violent acts, is barking up the wrong tree, fire fighting and missing the critical root cause, thus allowing the problem to fester and grow.
In most cases [presumption all religions are peaceful], the attention is always on the terrorists themselves whom I believe are victims of an evil laden ideology.

Here is my argument;

A Muslim is a person who had entered into a covenant with Allah to comply with the covenanted terms as in the Quran [final authority of Islam] with support from the Ahadiths.

Note the following conditions surrounding who is a Muslim, his/her obligation and actions;

1. DNA wise ALL humans are embedded with an existential crisis,

2. The most effective strategy to deal with the existential crisis is at of a promise of salvation to soothe the existential pains with the assurance of eternal life.

3. To be assured of the promise of salvation, believers MUST enter into a covenant with God/Allah to comply with the stipulated covenanted terms in the holy texts.

4. The covenanted terms of the ideology of Islam contain loads of evil and violent elements, (evidence available) [in contrast while that of Christianity is purely pacifist.]

5. DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil and violent acts. [argument available]

6. Appx 20% of all humans are born with an active evil tendency [evidence available] who will be naturally drawn towards evil and violent elements and commit them.

7. Potentially, SOME of the 20% of all Muslims [300 million!!!] will likely commit evil and violence in alignment with their obligation to gain salvation. Note the seriousness of this number when even a lone wolf can create terrible terrors.
​

From the above, ALL humans are 'cursed' with an embedded existential crisis naturally and thus all will seek solutions to deal with the existential crisis.

The majority take the religious or spiritual, where the Abrahamic followers [thus Muslims] has to enter into a covenant with their God to comply with the covenanted terms to gain salvation with eternal life.

It is very evident there are SOME [from a pool of 300 million!!] Muslims who had committed terrible terroristic and other forms of evil and violent acts.
Here is a crude stat but [even if reduced to 50% or 10% ] in essence is very valid to justify the above point;

However from the logical syllogism re point 1-6, it is very logical we cannot blame the Muslims who as vulnerable human beings are seeking salvation to deal with an inherent existential crisis.

Alternatively and in contrast where any one who had followed the Christianity path, they will NOT be influenced in any way to commit any evil or violent act since the overriding moral maxim of Christianity is purely pacifist in nature.​

In the above case of evil and violent acts committed by SOME Muslims, we cannot primarily blame those Muslims.
The critical cause for the Muslims in committing terrible evil and violence is point 4, i.e. the ideology of Islam that contain loaded evil and evil elements that would compel and inspire SOME [from a pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evil and violent [in their eyes a divine duty] to secure their salvation and eternal life in paradise.

As a control point [in theory], if there is no Islam with the evil and violent element in its ideology, there will be no Islamic-based evil and violent terror at all. In fact there will be no purely religious driven evil and violent acts at all. This is because no other mainstream religion condone evil and violence in their ideology, the only exception is Islam.​

Of course, those extremist Muslims and others who commit evil and violent acts must be accountable for their crimes but for humanity sake in seeking effective solutions, the primary blame should never be pointed at the extremist Muslims but the attention should be on the root cause, that is in the ideology of Islam. If we blame the extremist Muslims, then we are fire-fighting the symptoms rather than tackling the ultimate root cause.

Note there other factors in the above model which are the inherent existential crisis, the evil potential. But these are DNA based element thus difficult to control and change.

Affiliation with a religion is a serious emotional and psychological affair but it can be changed or modified for the better. There are many who have converted in and out of religions.

My point;
In any discussion of Islamic based evil and violent acts, we must differentiate the Muslims as human beings from the ideology of Islam [as ideas and beliefs].
(note the guilty Muslims must be accountable to the laws of the land)

Per the model above, we must not put the primary blame and direction attention at the Muslims and even extremist Muslims for the evil and violent acts they committed in the name of their religion.

The main attention and focus must be on the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam.

One problem is the ideology of Islam within the Quran [& supporting texts] is extremely difficult to grasp in its totality. Thus the first attention is to ensure the Quran and its essence is easily understood by all. This is a difficult task, but must be undertaken with an academic, objective and philosophical basis.

Views?

​

What is this (existential crisis*) is that a thing?

 

[Joyousperson]

According to this report about 840 million people, or 12% of the world population, lived in conflict zones in 2016: https://www.prio.org/utility/DownloadFile.ashx?id=1550&type=publicationfile This means that 88% of the world's population live in peaceful regions. This would not be possible if the world was in chaos. Even in regions of conflict, there are still areas peace and tranquility to be found. The world is a pretty orderly place considering there are more than 7 billion people from such vastly different cultures on this planet.

How can you be so blind and narrow minded.

In addition to conflicts and potential conflicts, note the below;
Political and economically the chaos is very obvious.
The politically parties in the USA, Europe and other continents are heavily divided. You deny this??

The Weather and climate conditions are also chaotic.

There are so many aspects of the conditions within our Earth that is chaotic.

Most sources cite somewhere around 5% and this was the percentage in the last Islamic course I took in 2017. Below are a couple of more recent sources to be found online:

The world’s 1.6 Billion Muslim population can be approximately divided into the following main sects:
1) Hanafi Sunni Muslims : 35%
2) Shafei Sunni Muslim : 25%
3) Shia Muslims : 20%
4) Maliki Sunni Muslims : 15%
5) Hambali Sunni Muslims: 4%
6) Salafi Muslims : 1%

The Hanbali school was founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal in the 9th century. It is primarily found in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and has some presence in the countries surrounding the KSA, such as Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Yemen, and Oman. It is the smallest Sunni school by far, estimated to contain fewer than 5% of the world’s Muslims as adherents, but as they are concentrated in areas of great wealth and power it has a stronger influence on global Islamic thought than might be expected.

That link you shared doesn't show that 20% of Muslims adhere to the Hanbali school of thought. It shows 15% of Sunni Muslims follow the Hanbali school of thought. According to your source 10 to 12% of the world's Muslims follow the Hanbali school of thought rather than 20%.

I question that site, because first, it's called "informationisbeautiful." It's just a site that provides info-graphics. It's not a site that concentrates on Islam or world religions. Secondly, I couldn't find any other source online that puts the number at more than 5%. And finally, I checked the sources the site used to come to that conclusion (Wikipedia, Pew Research, the Gale Encyclopaedia of Religion) and none of them give a percentage of how many Muslims adhere to the Hanbali school of thought.

Regardless of whether it's 4% or as much as 12%, it's only a small minority of the Muslim world that adheres to the Hanbali school of thought.

12% is a a large quantum of 192 million!!! You got to be serious with such a large number when it took only 18++ to do a 911 and a single lone-wolf can cause a terrible terror.

However, note I am not focus on the Hanabali.
What I am focusing on is the natural % of evil prone Muslims within the whole 1.6 billion of Muslim around the world.
I had already demonstrated a natural 20% are born with an active evil tendency, thus 320 million active potentials.

In addition, with Islam even the good humans can be easily be triggered to be violent when reminded of their salvation and the necessity to comply with more of the covenanted terms of the divine contract with Allah.

There are many who did self-study of the Quran and Ahadith themselves [i.e. not preached by extremists] and realized they have to be more serious and zealous with the covenanted terms, i.e. mainly to hate non-Muslims as displayed by the 3400++ verses of the Quran.

In terms of salvation and its algorithm in the brain, there is a noticeable increasing trend of believers getting more and more zealous, and in the case of Islam, many Muslims will get more evil and violent in nature.

 

[Joyousperson]

What is this (existential crisis*) is that a thing?

DNA wise all humans beings has the potential of an existential crisis. It is a psychological state.
DNA wise 90% of all humans are born with an active existential crisis.
The most effective balm to soothe the pains of this existential crisis is via religions.

The basis of the inherent existential crisis is this;
DNA wise All humans strive to survive at all costs and the awareness of death under various threats spontaneously heightens one's fear so as to prompt one into actions to avoid death thus to survive.
All humans has the potential to avoid the threats of deaths thus relieving the fears whenever it is raised.

Fortunately and unfortunately for All humans [as distinct from non-humans] they are endowed with self-awareness and the knowledge that mortality is inevitable.

Since,
awareness of death naturally generate terrible fears,
then
the awareness of certain death, would bring greater terrible existential fears, i.e. an existential crisis which a person cannot avoid nor resolve by him/herself.​

This is the basis of the existential crisis, a cognitive dissonance of not wanting to die but being self-aware that physical mortality is inevitable.

DNA wise all humans are also endowed with inhibitors to suppressed such fears of inevitable mortality but there are leakage at the subconscious levels.
This leakage is the existential crisis that mortality is inevitable thus the natural defense strategy is to seek solutions to the existential crisis.
Fortunately religions provide various solutions, e.g. the Abrahamic religions and others provide a promise of eternal life to resolve the problem of inevitable mortality.

The contrast in dealing with the existential crisis is;
Christianity promised salvation and eternal life to believers under the condition of an overall pacifist maxim.
Islam on the other hand, promised salvation and eternal life to believers under very vague conditions that could influence SOME [pool of 20% or 320 million evil prone] believers to commit evil and violent to earn greater assurance to their salvation.

There are other religions [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism and others] that provide a non-theistic approach to deal with the existential crisis.

Those who are ignorant or are indifferent to the existential crisis often end up as drug addicts, turn to pain killers, crimes, and commit various evil acts or they are just naturally good humans.

 

[JosephZ]

Your 1% of extremists is a toothless figure. Btw 1% = 16 million still a significant quantum!
It is not a question of what the present so-called extremists are doing.

You only defense for being an apologetic of Islam is that there are only 1% of Muslims who are extremists. This is baseless and toothless as I have show above.

The 1% is in reference to violent extremists.

How is that possible if more than 99% of the more than 1.6 billion Muslims in the world aren't engaging in violent jihad?

better than 99% of Muslims in the world live in harmony with their neighbors and have nothing to do with violent jihad.

The number of violent extremists is actually closer to 1/10th of one percent (160,000). It's based on the information provided by the US State Department, the number of known extremists who belong to or have sworn their allegiance to terrorist groups of all ideologies is less than 200,000 world wide.


The following are what one would consider to be "toothless" claims as you haven't provided any source for these numbers. You said you did your own research on the verses, but you have yet to upload them. Until you do, they will remain "toothless."

As I had argued there is a trend of the heightening of the sense of the desperation for salvation to paradise with eternal life and this is correlated with the zeal for greater compliance to as many of the covenanted terms which included loads of evil and violent verses in the Quran, i.e. 3400++ negatively directed at the non-Muslims.

I have already argued there is a natural pool of 20% or 320 million of evil prone Muslims who are easily triggered to commit the obligated evil and violent acts.

I had already demonstrated a natural 20% are born with an active evil tendency, thus 320 million.

they have to be more serious with the covenanted terms, i.e. mainly to hate non-Muslims as displayed by the 3400++ verses of the Quran.

Note this 2017 Pew Research which show the preference for Sharia Laws which imbued with evils and violence toward non-Muslims. There are many countries with > 70% and I approximate the average to be 40% all across the 1.5 b of Muslims.
I bet you do not understand the full impact of the acceptance of and by so many Muslims and the evil and violent on non-Muslims from the Sharia Law.

Yes, most Muslims do believe in Sharia, just as most Christians believe in God's law; but I'm pretty sure what you believe about Sharia is not the same as that of Muslims. Sharia is not much different than halakhah in Judaism or the magisterium found in Catholicism.

Sharia comes mostly from the Qur’an and Sunnah and is a guide used by Muslims to become closer to God through teaching values, providing a code of conduct, and giving religious commandments which guide Muslims on how to live their day to day lives. The word Sharia literally translates into "the path" or "the way" and only applies to Muslims. It has no application to non-Muslims, so it's not something to be feared.

When the question about God's Law is asked of Christians, the results are similar.

Note those who support the acts of I.S.I.S;
Note Indonesia indicates only 4% but it has a population of around 200 million Muslims.

Having a favorable view of ISIS doesn't necessarily make someone violent or a threat. Most extremists and those who hold extreme points of view are non-violent.

From the same poll, we find that there are even Christians and Buddhists that have a favorable view of ISIS.

Note those who support the acts of I.S.I.S;
Note Indonesia indicates only 4% but it has a population of around 200 million Muslims.

Once again, having a favorable view of ISIS, while that's an extreme point of view, doesn't mean an individual is violent or will ever engage in violence.

Note under the desperation of salvation and for eternal life, a Muslim will do whatever it takes to please Allah and given the STALEMATE, the evil and violent acts from Muslims against non-Muslims are inevitable.

After 1,400 years less than 1% of Muslims have become violent. This would be inline with just about any segment of society. better than 99% of Muslims will never act out in violence towards non-Muslims. We know this to be true, because that's what we are seeing today, and have been seeing historically.

Therefore you cannot insist Islam is a peaceful religion but you have to recognize the fact Islam is inherently [large part] evil, violent and malignant.

How do you explain that greater than 99% of Muslims in the world living in peace and harmony with their neighbors if Islam teaches that violence, salvation, and eternal life is a result of violent jihad against non-Muslims? This would not be possible if what you say is true.

12% is a a large quantum of 192 million!!! You got to be serious with such a large number when it took only 18++ to do a 911 and a single lone-wolf can cause a terrible terror.

Less than 1% of that 12% have resorted to violence of any kind. Once again, having an extreme point of view doesn't make a person violent.

[

 

[Joyousperson]

The 1% is in reference to violent extremists.

The number of violent extremists is actually closer to 1/10th of one percent (160,000). It's based on the information provided by the US State Department, the number of known extremists who belong to or have sworn their allegiance to terrorist groups of all ideologies is less than 200,000 world wide.

Note terrorist groups of all ideologies is irrelevant in this argument which is specifically applicable to Islamic terrorism.

Your 1% is ridiculous. Show me the reference and link again.

Note it is reported;

The United Nations has said that more than 40,000 foreign fighters from 110 countries may have travelled to Syria and Iraq to join terrorist groups.
How many IS foreign fighters are left?​

If that is 10%, the potential figure is already 400,000. But there is a larger percentage within Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and others.
Your 160,000 is a ridiculous number.

I challenge you to the following;
If you believe there are only 1% of terrorists,
I dare you to go to a square in the main city of Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and start condemning Islam and prophet Muhammad.
If you insist 1% then only 1 or two from the crowd will threatened you with death.
I am very certain it is very likely a large percentage >80% of the people present will mob and kill you.

The following are what one would consider to be "toothless" claims as you haven't provided any source for these numbers. You said you did your own research on the verses, but you have yet to upload them. Until you do, they will remain "toothless."

Actually you can read and count them from reading the Quran thoroughly. I have already given a sample of 15 verses from Chapter 2 and the rest of the 3400++ are along the same line, i.e. condenming the non-Muslims antagonistically of various degrees. I will get them published in time.
In the meantime, you can read from Bill Warner's site which included some related verses without the infidel content.

Yes, most Muslims do believe in Sharia, just as most Christians believe in God's law; but I'm pretty sure what you believe about Sharia is not the same as that of Muslims. Sharia is not much different than halakhah in Judaism or the magisterium found in Catholicism.

Sharia comes mostly from the Qur’an and Sunnah and is a guide used by Muslims to become closer to God through teaching values, providing a code of conduct, and giving religious commandments which guide Muslims on how to live their day to day lives. The word Sharia literally translates into "the path" or "the way" and only applies to Muslims. It has no application to non-Muslims, so it's not something to be feared.

When the question about God's Law is asked of Christians, the results are similar.

View attachment 257291

Note I mentioned very strongly, whatever Christian laws the Christians followed, they are limited by the overriding pacifist maxim of love all, even enemies.

Sharia Laws has no such overall limitations on Muslims and non-Muslims. Note the stoning to death for adultery, homosexuals and others. The canning of 100 lashes for various non-compliance and many other evil acts which are condoned by Sharia Laws. The chopping of hands for thefts.
You agree with all these heinous laws and punishments.

Having a favorable view of ISIS doesn't necessarily make someone violent or a threat. Most extremists and those who hold extreme points of view are non-violent.

You don't have a good moral compass.
Supporting ISIS meant giving them the moral, financial and other support for them to commit their evil acts.
These is just like the majority of Germans who support the Nazi party and its ideology. If the majority do not support them, they would not dare to commit the terror they have done.

From the same poll, we find that there are even Christians and Buddhists that have a favorable view of ISIS.



View attachment 257290

Once again, having a favorable view of ISIS, while that's an extreme point of view, doesn't mean an individual is violent or will ever engage in violence.

So what?
There are good and bad people in every good but they has nothing to do with Christianity and Buddhism per se.

After 1,400 years less than 1% of Muslims have become violent. This would be inline with just about any segment of society. better than 99% of Muslims will never act out in violence towards non-Muslims. We know this to be true, because that's what we are seeing today, and have been seeing historically.

Note less than 1% of Nazis committed actual violent acts [the ICC only punished a few hundred Germans] but then we condemned the ideology of Nazism.

What is critical here is we must condemn the ideology of Islam which has an evil and violent ethos that could influence any Muslim from a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violent.

How do you explain that greater than 99% of Muslims in the world living in peace and harmony with their neighbors if Islam teaches that violence, salvation, and eternal life is a result of violent jihad against non-Muslims? This would not be possible if what you say is true.

You are in denial and not facing reality.
I have shown you stats and polls where there are a reasonable % of Muslims supporting ISIS and various terror groups based on the same ideology of Islam.

Based on my empirical based inference there are 20% of Muslims who has a natural active evil tendency and that is a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims.
True a small % of this pool will have the guts to commit extreme evil, but note if 10% of this pool, it is 32 million which is still a critical quantum.
The overall danger is this 320 million will provide moral, financial and other support to those who will commit the actual acts of evil and violence as an obligation of being a Muslim in compliance to verses in the Quran.

Btw, my focus in evil and violent acts by evil prone Muslims in compliance to Allah's command is not merely on terrorist acts but cover the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts, e.g. rapes, oppression, misogynistic, deprivation of basic human rights, curbing of the freedom of speech and religion, and many others.

Less than 1% of that 12% have resorted to violence of any kind. Once again, having an extreme point of view doesn't make a person violent.
[

As I had argued, it is very natural, only a small percentage of the whole population of any violent groups will act out the evil and violent acts.
What matter is the higher % of believers who support the evil and violent nature of the ideology.
The higher % of evil prone believers also provide a pool for the generation of those extremist who will commit the act.

What is most critical is the evil and violent elements within the ideology of Islam.

All groups, i.e. Christianity, Buddhism and other religions do not condone evil and violent acts in absolute terms.
There are 20% of Christians and Buddhist who are evil prone, but they cannot commit evil and violent acts in the name of Christianity and Buddhism respectively.

On the other hand, Islam is different. The ideology of Islam contains loads of evil and violent elements that influence and inspire Muslims who are evil prone to commit evil and violent acts in the name of Islam and Allah.

The inherent problem is the "STALEMATE" where no humans on earth can stop the evil prone from committing evil and violence in the name of Allah and Islam!!

Therefore as long as Islams and Muslims exist, there will be inevitable evil and violent acts committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.

 

[Joyousperson]

JosephZ,
I suggest you listen to this interview where this very learned Iman speaks the truth of Islam very objectively.
Otherwise show me where he is wrong in his view of Islam?