Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

[stan1953]

I have a question for anyone of any belief. I'd love a whole bunch of answers b/c I find it a facinating question. I do like to read what other denominations believe so this is not a trap of some sort. I chose to ask this question in this thread b/c I think it has a lot to do with Free Will.

"Is God in control of everything?" ...going as far to ask, is God in control of every molecule, atom, piece of dust, etc. in the universe?

God created the universe and everything IN it. Thus He created the Laws of Physics, or at least the ones we know about. They are self functioning. He created the Law of Gravity, the Laws of Motion, and every other law we know of and I'm sure many we still haven't discovered. God is NOT a puppet master, He is NOT the Wizard of Oz. He created everything so that it would work the way it is supposed to work. Just like He created man. Man runs on his own. Being in control does not mean He makes everything happen.

And one more question (sorry just thought of something else)-

"Did God cause the Jews, Caiphas, Pontius Pilot, etc. to crucify Christ? Since He had it planned from the foundations, did he look down the corridor of time and see these people doing this and say "Ok, well these are the people that are going to crucify my Son." OR, did he hand pick each Jew that was present shouting 'crucify Him' and purposefully cause Pilot to deliever Christ over to them to be crucified? I know God DID choose Judas as the one who would betray Jesus and that he was destined for destruction (John 17:12). So why can't God choose anyone else for "destruction"? Why can He choose certain people in the Bible for destruction (Romans 9:21-24), but then right here,right now that does not apply?

Sorry...turned into lots a questions...anyone can answer any of these, you don't have to answer all of them. Thanks so much!

All God's plans are based on His foreknowledge. He is not arbitrary like some people like to think He is. God doesn't make ANYONE do ANYTHING. Destined in God's plans is again based on His Foreknowledge. If anyone wants to believe we are all robots running amuck I guess they really don't believe that God truly loves us, but that He wanted something like angels but in physical form. Does anyone think God made a mistake when He created angels?

 

[stan1953]

So this is my question...why WOULD God change? He destined some for destruction...and according to Romans 9, (v.14)What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (v.18) He has mercy on whomever He wills and hardens whomever He wills. (v.22)What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction...

AGAIN, God doesn't change. Those he chooses for common or ignoble purposes are those He knows will follow that path. AGAIN, Foreknowledge.

 

[stan1953]

There is a bunch of contortionism involved in your eisegesis. You seem to think Jesus is somehow interested in restoring or advancing man's freewill. Jesus came to set the captives free. Free from sin, death, and the devil. Plus, Paul calls us slaves to righteousness...doesn't sound like freewill to me. You simply don't have foundational Biblical support for what you are saying, for some reason you are safeguarding a manmade maleficient concept that does not even exist, nonetheless you believe it to be beneficent.


Jesus speaking to Jewish ears is asked by the Jews about being in held in bondage as descendants of Abraham. Jesus tells the Jews if they abide in His Word and listen to Him, they will be truly free indeed. Nothing about a freewill.

John 8:31-35

Amplified Bible (AMP)

31So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word [hold fast to My teachings and live in accordance with them], you are truly My disciples.
32And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
33They answered Him, We are Abraham's offspring (descendants) and have never been in bondage to anybody. What do You mean by saying, You will be set free?
34Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Whoever commits and practices sin is the slave of sin.35Now a slave does not remain in a household permanently (forever); the son [of the house] does remain forever.

35Now a slave does not remain in a household permanently (forever); the son [of the house] does remain forever.
36So if the Son liberates you [makes you free men], then you are really and unquestionably free.



Freedom in Christ is not freewill. Your will is not free, but is controlled by your mind and heart. The will is subservient to the heart and mind. The cross is not to establish or advance man's will; free or otherwise.

Who is practising eisegesis? You keep ignoring the scriptures you want to and look for ones that you think fit your belief. You keep on doing those gymnastics and see how far it gets you. You want to use Paul when he agrees with your belief, but NOT when he directly contradicts your belief. You even quote John 8:36 above, but apparently you think free does NOT include our will. According to you, FREE, is not really free.
How sad. That my friend is true eisegesis, of your OWN free will!

 

[bottomofsandal]

Who is practising eisegesis? You keep ignoring the scriptures you want to and look for ones that you think fit your belief. You keep on doing those gymnastics and see how far it gets you. You want to use Paul when he agrees with your belief, but NOT when he directly contradicts your belief. You even quote John 8:36 above, but apparently you think free does NOT include our will. According to you, FREE, is not really free.
How sad. That my friend is true eisegesis, of your OWN free will!

Where did Jesus say He came to give us freewill ? Freedom in Christ is not freewill !!! The will is not free, rather it is a servant of the heart and mind. Jesus said "out of the heart proceed", "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". What do you believe freewill to be ? It is not a Bible term or concept. Although "Trinity" is not mentioned specifically, there is evidence. Where in The Bible is freewill mentioned ? I believe you are actually referring to the heart and the mind of man. These govern man.



We are commanded to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. Where is the will involved in loving and serving God ? This might possibly be something as innocent as a misappropriation of terms. There is no freewill.


Matthew 22:37

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

 

[stan1953]

Where did Jesus say He came to give us freewill ? Freedom in Christ is not freewill !!! The will is not free, rather it is a servant of the heart and mind. Jesus said "out of the heart proceed", "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". What do you believe freewill to be ? It is not a Bible term or concept. Although "Trinity" is not mentioned specifically, there is evidence. Where in The Bible is freewill mentioned ? I believe you are actually referring to the heart and the mind of man. These govern man.
We are commanded to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. Where is the will involved in loving and serving God ? This might possibly be something as innocent as a misappropriation of terms. There is no freewill.

I just gave you scripture. IF you confess Christ...freewill... Love your neighbor...freewill, Love your wife as Christ loved the church....Freewill, the Bible is FULL of instructions for US to obey. This obedience, REQUIRES free will. Funny that you get the concept of the Trinity, but not Freewill. Why would the Bible have to instruct us in ALL areas of our life if we didn't have free will? We wouldn't need God's Word if free will didn't exist. God would NOT have to have commnaded Adam to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge IF he didn't have freewill. Your problem is that you CANNOT reconcile your free will with your walk in Christ so you tell yourself I don't have free will so I can't be held liable. Well if you or ANY person can't be held liable for what they do, then there is NO free will. The FACT is though that we can, we are and we will be held accountable.
You seem to be able to navigate scripture fairly well, based on how you practise eisegesis, so I guess the ONLY issue for you is to be honest in Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to make the scriptures that clearly show our free will, clear to you. I pray God will.

 

[Albion]

I just gave you scripture. IF you confess Christ...freewill... Love your neighbor...freewill, Love your wife as Christ loved the church....Freewill, the Bible is FULL of instructions for US to obey. This obedience, REQUIRES free will.

Sometimes people do use the word in that way, but it's not what is meant, theologically, when we get into these freewill vs. election threads.

What it means is that Man has the ability to choose Christ on his own (if you believe that). The opposite would be election, by which is meant that God chooses whomever He wills to have saving faith. That would not be done by any of us by use of our "free will." To say that we are exercising freewill when we, for example, confess Christ, misses the point of freewill.

Of course we are not windup dolls or robots having no intellectual abilities, but when it comes to having a relationship with Christ, is it our doing (freewill) or His (Election)?

 

[stan1953]

Sometimes people do use the word in that way, but it's not what is meant, theologically, when we get into these freewill vs. election threads.

What it means is that Man has the ability to choose Christ on his own (if you believe that). The opposite would be election, by which is meant that God chooses whomever He wills to have saving faith. That would not be done by any of us by use of our "free will." To say that we are exercising freewill when we, for example, confess Christ, misses the point of freewill.

Of course we are not windup dolls or robots having no intellectual abilities, but when it comes to having a relationship with Christ, is it our doing (freewill) or His (Election)?

Freewill is what I said and meant. Election follows God's foreknowledge and subsequent predestination for those who will believe, to become conformed to the image of His Son. Nothing in scripture supports winning the lottery.
We use John 3:16 all the time but why do we NOT see the words "that WHOEVER believes in Him"

 

[Lee52]

Sometimes people do use the word in that way, but it's not what is meant, theologically, when we get into these freewill vs. election threads.

What it means is that Man has the ability to choose Christ on his own (if you believe that). The opposite would be election, by which is meant that God chooses whomever He wills to have saving faith. That would not be done by any of us by use of our "free will." To say that we are exercising freewill when we, for example, confess Christ, misses the point of freewill.

Of course we are not windup dolls or robots having no intellectual abilities, but when it comes to having a relationship with Christ, is it our doing (freewill) or His (Election)?

My brother in Christ Jesus, Stan1953 makes some very valid points that you are not addressing. If we have intellectual abilities, that by default means that we have free will to accept or reject salvation in Christ Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf. Please consider Paul's letter to the various congregations in Galatia and his statements about free to do all things in Christ, YET, not all things are good for us to do. Free will. Please consider Paul's letters to the congregations in Corinth and telling them that they are bought with a price and no longer should be doing things that are not edifying to the Body of Christ, His Church, His bride. Free will.

As Brother Stan said, John 3:16-21:
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Carried out IN GOD, not BY GOD.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Albion]

My brother in Christ Jesus, Stan1953 makes some very valid points that you are not addressing. If we have intellectual abilities, that by default means that we have free will to accept or reject salvation in Christ Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf.

No it does not. That's what I was trying to get across. When it is said, for example, that choosing to follow Christ shows that we have to have freewill indicates a logical fallacy as well as a misunderstanding of the term. You cannot choose Christ unless God calls you. You may think you made the move entirely on your own--and you might intellectually decide that Jesus was impressive, etc. from reading history--but that's not faith. Faith comes only if God allows and provides the ability to choose Christ. So, it may look like an exercise of freewill is the reason you chose Christ, but you can't say logically that it wacertainly done freely or if, on the contrary, God made your choice for you by drawing you to him.

Second, the theological misuse of the term. Free and Will can be made to apply to a lot of ideas, depending on how the speaker wants to use the words, but in Christian theology, freewill and its opposite, election, refer not to everyday choices that we all make but specifically to the one choice that matters most--a relationship with Christ. You can't really speak of choosing to go to church or deciding to tithe or any other action that takes some decision-making as though these are examples of "freewill" in action. Freewill in the proper context deals only with the bond with Christ that saves.

 

[Lee52]

Albion,
In the beginning did GOD intend to have a perfect fellowship with mankind?

Please stop with just the answer to that question. It calls for a very simple, "yes" or "no" answer.

Please indulge me, as I will proceed only one step at a time.

I desire no argument between brothers in Christ, merely a simple, concise discussion.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Albion]

Albion,
In the beginning did GOD intend to have a perfect fellowship with mankind?

yes.

I desire no argument between brothers in Christ, merely a simple, concise discussion.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Lee52]

yes.

And I agree with you on this, because without saying it specifically, there are enough supporting Scriptures to know it.

So, did GOD make man in His own image?

If yes, what does that mean?

 

[bottomofsandal]

I just gave you scripture. IF you confess Christ...freewill... Love your neighbor...freewill, Love your wife as Christ loved the church....Freewill, the Bible is FULL of instructions for US to obey. This obedience, REQUIRES free will.

Sorry bro, obedience requires ability and willingness. Yes, The Bible is full of instructions, none of which the carnal mind and heart are able to fulfill. Are you really saying sinful man, in a sinful state, can please Holy God ?

Funny that you get the concept of the Trinity, but not Freewill. Why would the Bible have to instruct us in ALL areas of our life if we didn't have free will? We wouldn't need God's Word if free will didn't exist. God would NOT have to have commnaded Adam to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge IF he didn't have freewill.

No one has said or implied Adam and Eve DID NOT have a freewill because they did !!! How did that turn out ? Your illustration supports the failure of freewill... you can surely see that !!! One command, and not even a hard one, and freewill failed miserably. Then sin entered the world, along with it the condition of man changed, and man no longer had a freewill. The heart and mind of man were inexorably changed. Man now had a bent away from God. No more freewill decisions after this episode in Eden.

Your problem is that you CANNOT reconcile your free will with your walk in Christ so you tell yourself I don't have free will so I can't be held liable. Well if you or ANY person can't be held liable for what they do, then there is NO free will. The FACT is though that we can, we are and we will be held accountable.

I love your passion bro, but you are getting into a perilous area here and making insinuations about things that are simply not true and frankly are borderline judgemental.

You seem to be able to navigate scripture fairly well, based on how you practise eisegesis, so I guess the ONLY issue for you is to be honest in Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to make the scriptures that clearly show our free will, clear to you. I pray God will.

A godly man will take a rebuke (Psalm 141:5). Rather than be catty and pray for The Spirit to teach me, why don't you teach us ? The passage in John dealt with The Jews as descendants of Abraham and being in bondage to no one, not freewill as you claimed. The bit from Colossians 3:14 about putting on love does not support freewill either. Go back to verse 3 which states, "for you died". How does a dead man have freewill ? I am not saying you are a workman who cannot rightly divide or handle The Word of truth, but what I will humbly submit to you is that you have been taught something and you cling to it tenaciously but that when it comes time to defend the pov...you can't. If you do not agree the will is governed by the heart and mind, then you are using an erroneous designation. Please disclose the location of the will. Where is it ?

 

[Albion]

And I agree with you on this, because without saying it specifically, there are enough supporting Scriptures to know it.

So, did GOD make man in His own image?

and likeness.

If yes, what does that mean?

God made man with an eternal soul and intelligence.

 

[bottomofsandal]

No it does not. That's what I was trying to get across. When it is said, for example, that choosing to follow Christ shows that we have to have freewill indicates a logical fallacy as well as a misunderstanding of the term. You cannot choose Christ unless God calls you. You may think you made the move entirely on your own--and you might intellectually decide that Jesus was impressive, etc. from reading history--but that's not faith. Faith comes only if God allows and provides the ability to choose Christ. So, it may look like an exercise of freewill is the reason you chose Christ, but you can't say logically that it wacertainly done freely or if, on the contrary, God made your choice for you by drawing you to him.

Second, the theological misuse of the term. Free and Will can be made to apply to a lot of ideas, depending on how the speaker wants to use the words, but in Christian theology, freewill and its opposite, election, refer not to everyday choices that we all make but specifically to the one choice that matters most--a relationship with Christ. You can't really speak of choosing to go to church or deciding to tithe or any other action that takes some decision-making as though these are examples of "freewill" in action. Freewill in the proper context deals only with the bond with Christ that saves.

I like your post(s)...I don't know how to use the rep stuff yet !!!

 

[Lee52]

and likeness.



God made man with an eternal soul and intelligence.

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 1:26-28 ESV

Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. Genesis 5:2-3 ESV

BTW, the exact same Hebrew words are used in both Genesis 1 about man and GOD as are used in Genesis 5 about Adam and Seth. The words are: Image=tselem and likeness=demut

 

[Lee52]

Sorry bro, obedience requires ability and willingness. Yes, The Bible is full of instructions, none of which the carnal mind and heart are able to fulfill. Are you really saying sinful man, in a sinful state, can please Holy God ?

No one has said or implied Adam and Eve DID NOT have a freewill because they did !!! How did that turn out ? Your illustration supports the failure of freewill... you can surely see that !!! One command, and not even a hard one, and freewill failed miserably. Then sin entered the world, along with it the condition of man changed, and man no longer had a freewill. The heart and mind of man were inexorably changed. Man now had a bent away from God. No more freewill decisions after this episode in Eden.

I love your passion bro, but you are getting into a perilous area here and making insinuations about things that are simply not true and frankly are borderline judgemental.

A godly man will take a rebuke (Psalm 141:5). Rather than be catty and pray for The Spirit to teach me, why don't you teach us ? The passage in John dealt with The Jews as descendants of Abraham and being in bondage to no one, not freewill as you claimed. The bit from Colossians 3:14 about putting on love does not support freewill either. Go back to verse 3 which states, "for you died". How does a dead man have freewill ? I am not saying you are a workman who cannot rightly divide or handle The Word of truth, but what I will humbly submit to you is that you have been taught something and you cling to it tenaciously but that when it comes time to defend the pov...you can't. If you do not agree the will is governed by the heart and mind, then you are using an erroneous designation. Please disclose the location of the will. Where is it ?

“Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:14-16 ESV

 

[stan1953]

No it does not. That's what I was trying to get across. When it is said, for example, that choosing to follow Christ shows that we have to have freewill indicates a logical fallacy as well as a misunderstanding of the term. You cannot choose Christ unless God calls you. You may think you made the move entirely on your own--and you might intellectually decide that Jesus was impressive, etc. from reading history--but that's not faith. Faith comes only if God allows and provides the ability to choose Christ. So, it may look like an exercise of freewill is the reason you chose Christ, but you can't say logically that it wacertainly done freely or if, on the contrary, God made your choice for you by drawing you to him.

God's calling only makes us aware, just like your mother used to call you for dinner when you were young. Did you always go in right away? Free will choice is throughout scripture. How about Ex 35:29 or Lev 22:23 or 1 Chron 29:9 or Ezek 46:12 and of course Philemon 1:14... But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

Second, the theological misuse of the term. Free and Will can be made to apply to a lot of ideas, depending on how the speaker wants to use the words, but in Christian theology, freewill and its opposite, election, refer not to everyday choices that we all make but specifically to the one choice that matters most--a relationship with Christ. You can't really speak of choosing to go to church or deciding to tithe or any other action that takes some decision-making as though these are examples of "freewill" in action. Freewill in the proper context deals only with the bond with Christ that saves.

The misuse happens when you imply there is a difference between excercising our freewill within our society or not having freewill with God. As I explained very clearly prior to this post, election is BASED on foreknowledge, Romans 8:28-30, We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose. For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
Freewill is freewill...the meaning doesn't change based on the circumstances in which it exists. It doesn't change to fit your belief in so-called election. The Greek word for 'freewill' or 'willingly' is the Greek word 'hekousios" which is an adjective that connotes "voluntarily". You can't volunteer for something when you don't have freewill. Your position is NOT supported in scripture or in the common understanding of Greek and English grammar and diction.

 

[Albion]

God's calling only makes us aware, just like your mother used to call you for dinner when you were young.

That's one theory.

Free will choice is throughout scripture. How about Ex 35:29 or Lev 22:23 or 1 Chron 29:9 or Ezek 46:12 and of course Philemon 1:14... But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

remember what I said about which situations represent "free will" in the usual sense and others that mean it in another one that has nothing to do with receiving faith.

As I explained very clearly prior to this post, election is BASED on foreknowledge,

Some have tried to finesse the issue that way, but I'm still on the side of God being sovereign, not believing that he chooses us because we earn it and he knew that we'd do so, etc., if that's what you mean by your use of the word.

 

[stan1953]

That's one theory.

Only to you. A fact to me. There are tons of people that accept Evolution as fact when it is and always has been a THEORY.

remember what I said about which situations represent "free will" in the usual sense and others that mean it in another one that has nothing to do with receiving faith.

Situational ethics or interpretations don't exist in the Bible. Only in men's minds. Again exegesis is to be used when reading God's word, not eisegesis. We don't apply our concepts to God's word, God's word forms our concepts.
Stating a concept DOESN'T prove it and NOT supplying scriptures to validate one's concept definitely doesn't warrant that it be given any serious consideration.

Some have tried to finesse the issue that way, but I'm still on the side of God being sovereign, not believing that he chooses us because we earn it and he knew that we'd do so, etc., if that's what you mean by your use of the word.

God is Sovereign. God is everything. God is Omniscient, He is NOT ruled by time. He exists outside of time as we know and understand it. He is also a God of order. His plan of Salvation was thought out and established way before He created the earth and ALL that is in it, including Adam and Eve, who He gave free will to. NO ONE can EARN salvation. None of us deserve it. It is there because GOD so LOVED the WORLD, that WHOEVER believes should not perish but have everlasting life. Everything God does is about US and about having a reciprocal loving relationship with His children. His rules, OUR choice and choice is contingent on FREEWILL. Just like I don't believe in "The devil made me do it", I don't believe in "God made me do it". God didn't MAKE Abraham sacrifice His son Isaac. He commanded and Abraham chose to obey. In Gen 22:15-18 God made all those promises to Abraham, because he obeyed, an act of his OWN FREE WILL and faith. What puts FEET to FAITH...Obedience and obedience comes from our FREE WILL.