Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

[alphanoodle]

alphanoodle, you have a tremendous love as well as a great respect for brothers and sisters who are on this forum. Your posts are thought out and very personal and if someone is going to slam you for what you write instead of lovingly debate you then may our Lord and Savior forgive them. Keep up with the Bible reading. One of my favorite passages lately has been Ezekiel 36:22-Ezekiel 37. Beautiful. v.5 "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live." v.14 "And I will put my Spirit with in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." Keep up the heartfelt posts. I believe you make our Savior smile.

Your words are far, far too kind. Unfortunately I no longer contribute to this thread, so it was just by chance that I saw your entry today. After looking around I just noticed that there are too many battles going on, and too many negative words being spoken in this forum, EVEN IN THE PERSECUTION THREADS!!!, where I went to get myself back on track. How sad. People are so busy making personal attacks, that they aren't even addressing the original subject anymore, or scripture for that matter, or even God! Everything has become horizontal, as if God no longer exists or matters. My heart cannot bear it anymore. I cannot make an impact. Why would they even have a section devoted to apologetics anyway? The Calvinists have created their own invitation only forum so they can preach to the choir without being slandered by their brethren. Do words like brother or sister even mean anything in the body of God?
I want to 'present every man perfect in Christ', to build up, not tear down, to remind, not evade, to stir up every believer unto love and good works, and even more as I see the day approaching. These are not optional mandates.'They will know we are christians, not by our perfect unessential doctrine, but by our love' for love is of God, and God is love. He who loves, has been perfected in God, and God in him. Isn't that beautiful doctrine?
Love is the fulfillment of the law. Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. He makes his sun to shine on the just and the unjust. How shall we ever find the power to overcome the evil offenses of our enemies, and overcome our natural inclination to hate them, if we cannot show love for our brothers who love us? What an odd theology we embrace.
As for me, I spent many years in a cult, and they told us that we were the ONLY ones with the truth [then I met several other cults who made the same claim!], the only ones to be saved. Having been an antichrist, alien worshipping, eastern mysticism practicing atheist before, this idea that all these new found, SINCERE, fellow believers in Jesus were to be damned (This includes everyone on this forum) caused my heart a restless grief. I searched history books about the church and couldn't understand how it was that the very people who were burned at the stake for having brought the bible down to us, were going to hell since the weren't born before our cult was created! My heart was so overflowing for Christ that anyone who had even the faintest affinity for the name brought caused my heart to explode with love for them. I was never satisfied with knowing just one church full. I had to visit every church, and every saint 'ON A DAILY BASIS'. One of my brothers actually reprimanded me because i did not follow Solomon's counsel and 'remove my foot from my brother's house lest he grow weary of me and hate me.' When I argued that we don't love each other enough, he exclaimed, 'You see me every day!!!' You would think I'd grasp that logic, but instead, in my youthful zeal and ignorance of human culture, I replied, 'Well maybe I should visit twice a day!'
Ironically, it was through my refusal to disassociate myself from other believers, no matter what church, that God was able to set me straight. But even then I merely divided my time between my old cult congregation, and my evangelical church - learning truth from one in the morning, and arguing with an entire church in the evening. But you know, they still loved me. So when I see people here who claim to have such correct doctrine, and yet not a kind word out of high esteem for God's lambs, it is more than I can bear.
It is abject and egregious sin and evil, from Satan the murderer. For, to hate is to murder, and no murderer has eternal life living in him! Those who claim to know scripture so perfectly have a very ironic disregard for the essential, central things commanded by God in it! I refuse to be out-loved by cults and 'isms'. I refuse, because LOVE is my Father, dwelling in me. Whether I drive, or speak, or worship, this is my creed. This is my doctrine. This is my fear of God. This is my nature in the spirit.
Anyway, I have visited possibly hundreds of churches since my awakening, and I have friends who are of literally every denomination, cult, and ethnicity. I was my happiest when I belonged to a Chinese, and later to a Guamanian church. Actually two Chinese churches. One was hyper conservative, the other apostolic. I love apostolic believers. My evangelical brethren used to gather in circles to condemn then. Me too. One day I decided (by the grace of God alone) to go walk in another man's sandals before I made a condemnation. I was too far from the issue to really make a just charge. Then I found myself just walking down the street for dozens of miles, adding a different church to my itinerary for each day of the week. If I had no place to go for that night, I just walked until I found an open door, and added them to my schedule.
I realized by this, that I was wrong in my belief that the miracles no longer exist; not because I saw any among them, (although a brother had a prevision of me entering the church moments before I did; not to mention God gave me many prophecies before and since), but because I just didn't see a single place in scripture where Jesus or the apostles said there would be a cut off date in later centuries. In America few realize that all around the world, in persecuted lands, the miracles are in full effect, and often are the cause of salvation to these unchurched peoples.
Oddly enough, none of my apostolic brethren had a clue that I was not one of them (but I am one of them). They assumed that I too spoke in tongues, but I had prayed for years for this, and many hands were laid on me, and not even a tingle.
When I asked God the reason, He told me, 'The miracles are not proof of my Spirit. The FRUIT of the Spirit is proof.' Demons can imitate the miracles, and they do, but they simply cannot fake divine love, peace, mercy, humility, gentleness, long-suffering, self control, and perseverance under persecution, to name a few. So, before they found out that I was an evangelical by origin, they all told me that I was 'full of the Spirit'. I only emphasized that they be born again. They could not match my evangelism ministry, and this was what made them respect me since.
The funny note I'll end on is that before I heard any sermon condemning it, I used to think that Jesus Christ Superstar was the most accurate and beautiful portrayal of Jesus and his disciples that ever was. I used to feel ashamed until I watched it again, and I now I feel it even more strongly! I never fail to weep when I see it.
You're welcome to add your testimony (lengthy and detailed as you like) to my page. Maranatha!

 

[VCViking]

The Calvinists have created their own invitation only forum so they can preach to the choir without being slandered by their brethren.

Not true. All the sub-forums are that way. It was the doing of CF. Also, the Reformed/Calvinist forum has a "Ask a Calvinist" and a "Debate a Calvinist," sub-forums. So all are welcome to debate or ask, not just the choir.

 

[stan1953]

They assumed that I too spoke in tongues, but I had prayed for years for this, and many hands were laid on me, and not even a tingle.
When I asked God the reason, He told me, 'The miracles are not proof of my Spirit. The FRUIT of the Spirit is proof.' Demons can imitate the miracles, and they do, but they simply cannot fake divine love, peace, mercy, humility, gentleness, long-suffering, self control, and perseverance under persecution, to name a few. So, before they found out that I was an evangelical by origin, they all told me that I was 'full of the Spirit'. I only emphasized that they be born again. They could not match my evangelism ministry, and this was what made them respect me since.
The funny note I'll end on is that before I heard any sermon condemning it, I used to think that Jesus Christ Superstar was the most accurate and beautiful portrayal of Jesus and his disciples that ever was. I used to feel ashamed until I watched it again, and I now I feel it even more strongly! I never fail to weep when I see it.
You're welcome to add your testimony (lengthy and detailed as you like) to my page. Maranatha!

The sad fact is that apostolic succession is NOT very clear 2000 years later. I had hands layed on me when I first got saved(40 + years ago) and received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues as shown in Acts 2 and other places in Acts. At the same time there was a peer in my church who did not, even though he had apparently received Christ as savior. The same people prayed for him as prayed for me. I could only see two possible issues...he never really was saved, or he couldn't accept and believe in what the Holy Spirit could do in him. I do NOT know to this day if he ever received the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately this issue has caused GREAT division and non biblical interpretations that originated some 400+ years ago. The Bible is our guide to God and His workings and will. We see patterns and parables and events that show us what God has done and will do. He is the same "Yesterday, Today and Forever." Hebrews 13:8.
Also for clarification, the tongues spoken of in Acts 2 was NOT a gift, it was a mansifestation, a causal happening to the infilling. This event as well as all others mentioned in regards to receiving the infilling in Acts, shows the same causal effect, speaking in tongues. It is NOT a condition of receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit, it is a causal effect. What is interesting in Acts 8:18 is that Simon the Sourcerer, KNEW that the Holy Spirit had been imparted to those Peter & John layed their hands on. How? Well the inference if that they spoke in tongues, consistant with the other times mentioned in Acts. Even more, Simon wanted to PAY for this ability to lay hands on people and have them receive the Holy Spirit. Obviously he was NOT one of them that received the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Obviously even though he was saved, his heart was not right nor ready to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts doesn't show that Simon repented, ONLY that he asked Peter & John to "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

 

[alphanoodle]

Not true. All the sub-forums are that way. It was the doing of CF. Also, the Reformed/Calvinist forum has a "Ask a Calvinist" and a "Debate a Calvinist," sub-forums. So all are welcome to debate or ask, not just the choir.

Oh, thank you for the correction. After seeing the brutality, I had just assumed it was a safe haven to share commonly head convictions.
Oh, and I'm not saying that they do not readily challenge those who are willing, and not always willing, to do so intelligently and courteously.
I just don't have the energy, I guess. The world has enough bitterness and war. I'm sick from the hate.

 

[alphanoodle]

What is interesting in Acts 8:18 is that Simon the Sourcerer, KNEW that the Holy Spirit had been imparted to those Peter & John layed their hands on. How? Well the inference if that they spoke in tongues, consistant with the other times mentioned in Acts. Even more, Simon wanted to PAY for this ability to lay hands on people and have them receive the Holy Spirit. Obviously he was NOT one of them that received the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Obviously even though he was saved, his heart was not right nor ready to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts doesn't show that Simon repented, ONLY that he asked Peter & John to "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

Yeah, I don't know what separates us who don't have the manifestation from those who do. I only know of the things that did manifest; and the spirit of prophecy was definitely one. Teaching was one. I never even understood the bible, nor could I remember anything, before I was saved. I do remember that distinct feeling that something heavy was lifted off me. But I have so envied my friends that some times in my prayers, I would grow angry with God and demand 'Why?!' Why don't you fall upon me like that? I want to experience it. I need it for ministry!' But then it was as if God said to me, 'How many people have your friends led to the me? How well do they understand my words?' Still, I fasted and prayed day and night, and went from church to church, pastor to pastor, hand to hand... and nothing.... Maybe God knows that I would misuse it if I had it, or that I, like many, would begin to focus on the manifestation, and forget the Person. I don't know. I still pray for it after all these decades. I just want something more. But that isn't where my faith is, though. You know what I mean?

 

[myhopeisfound]

Oh, thank you for the correction. After seeing the brutality, I had just assumed it was a safe haven to share commonly head convictions.
Oh, and I'm not saying that they do not readily challenge those who are willing, and not always willing, to do so intelligently and courteously.
I just don't have the energy, I guess. The world has enough bitterness and war. I'm sick from the hate.

I know exactly what you are saying about not having the "energy" and just plain sick of the "hate". Sometimes people just have honest questions! I will say that it is difficult to not show some type of passion whether it comes off hateful (hopefully not) or just plain intense. ESPECIALLY, when it comes to the subject of Free Will. This topic hits the heart of the matter on so many issues of faith. Not only the heart of the matter but the heart of the person debating. That person's heart tends to show through on how he or she deals with the debate, as well. When I don't understand something or have the energy to go on with a debate, I turn to God. B/c as you and I know, it is not on our own that we are able to express what we believe. We have help from the Spirit! John 16:13 says "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." Well, you are bornagain, you HAVE the Spirit...and He will guide you into all truth.

I guess we are getting off the FREE WILL subject here, sorry...

 

[3rdHeaven]

It seems that according to most Protestant churches, they do disagree with the notion of "Free-Will". However, I haven't seen this with most Christian Protestant Church members. It seems that most people seem to agree with the notion that one can choose their own destiny, rather than God having chose it for us already.

But, maybe my understanding of things is wrong, and someone on here can correct it? Are you a protestant, and do you disagree with the notion of Free Will? If not, then what denomination are you from, specifically? What does your church say about the notion of Free Will and is your belief aligned with that of your church's?

I was not aware of this. Most Protestants with the exception of those trapped in the Calvinist fallacy understand and accept free will. Even in blatant Calvinist leaning Churches most of the Church goers there go there to worship God not follow Calvin teachings and pay little or no attention to any of that TULIP nonsense. Only the hardcore Calvinists follow that and elevate themselves over every one else. In my travels i have found most Protestants are far from that! Thank God!

 

[Albion]

I was not aware of this. Most Protestants with the exception of those trapped in the Calvinist fallacy understand and accept free will. Even in blatant Calvinist leaning Churches most of the Church goers there go there to worship God not follow Calvin teachings and pay little or no attention to any of that TULIP nonsense. Only the hardcore Calvinists follow that and elevate themselves over every one else. In my travels i have found most Protestants are far from that! Thank God!

I was going to say--before catching up on the recent posts--that most Protestant churches do not believe in Calvinism, although non-Calvinists and especially Catholics seem to want to believe that they do. Also that most individual Protestants are not Calvinists, including many who attend Calvinist churches (the point you made here). I say this as one who is sympathetic to most of Calvin's points, if not entirely sold on all of them.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Saith otherwise?

I think the Lord both plans and directs. James 4:15, "Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”

Either way it is up to us to obey and follow. He may direct our steps but we walk.

That makes no sense...it certainly doesn't solve the freewill debate !

How exactly are you walking ? In the flesh or in The Spirit ?



If we are walking in The Spirit, where does our "frewill" fit in?



Romans 8:14 New King James Version (NKJV)

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

[stan1953]

Yeah, I don't know what separates us who don't have the manifestation from those who do. I only know of the things that did manifest; and the spirit of prophecy was definitely one. Teaching was one. I never even understood the bible, nor could I remember anything, before I was saved. I do remember that distinct feeling that something heavy was lifted off me. But I have so envied my friends that some times in my prayers, I would grow angry with God and demand 'Why?!' Why don't you fall upon me like that? I want to experience it. I need it for ministry!' But then it was as if God said to me, 'How many people have your friends led to the me? How well do they understand my words?' Still, I fasted and prayed day and night, and went from church to church, pastor to pastor, hand to hand... and nothing.... Maybe God knows that I would misuse it if I had it, or that I, like many, would begin to focus on the manifestation, and forget the Person. I don't know. I still pray for it after all these decades. I just want something more. But that isn't where my faith is, though. You know what I mean?

Yes I do, and all I can do is encourage you to find someone FULL of faith and have them lay hands on you if you have never had this done. I also encourage you to respond in faith to the laying on of hands. Our own fear about the unknown, can prevent us from realizing the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Remember, Jesus said you WILL receive the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Advocate

 

[stan1953]

That makes no sense...it certainly doesn't solve the freewill debate !

How exactly are you walking ? In the flesh or in The Spirit ?



If we are walking in The Spirit, where does our "frewill" fit in?



Romans 8:14 New King James Version (NKJV)

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

What exactly doesn't make sense to you?

I walk in the Spirit and the flesh...haven't attained perfection yet.

Well we're NOT automatons. When we submit to the Spirit, we use our free will. You can't obey if you don't use your free will. Remember we DON'T walk according to the letter of the law, but according to the Spirit of the law, BOTH require obedience.

 

[3rdHeaven]

What exactly doesn't make sense to you?

I walk in the Spirit and the flesh...haven't attained perfection yet.

Well we're NOT automatons. When we submit to the Spirit, we use our free will. You can't obey if you don't use your free will. Remember we DON'T walk according to the letter of the law, but according to the Spirit of the law, BOTH require obedience.

I think a lot of people have no idea what walking in the spirit is. They may imagine a zombie with no mind of his own, they may imagine a robot programmed a certain way. It's simply putting on the mind of Christ and trying to act like Him and think like Him. None of us no matter how hard we try will be able to do that every second of our lives. I wish God did over ride our free will or take mine away! So that i could be more robotic if it meant I would have the mind of Christ every second! It doesn't work that way. God gave us free will so we can learn to love. He could have easily made us perfect from the start if He wanted too. He chose to do it the best way possible, through love by giving us the ability to chose each path he presents us.

 

[stan1953]

I think a lot of people have no idea what walking in the spirit is. They may imagine a zombie with no mind of his own, they may imagine a robot programmed a certain way. It's simply putting on the mind of Christ and trying to act like Him and think like Him. None of us no matter how hard we try will be able to do that every second of our lives. I wish God did over ride our free will or take mine away! So that i could be more robotic if it meant I would have the mind of Christ every second! It doesn't work that way. God gave us free will so we can learn to love. He could have easily made us perfect from the start if He wanted too. He chose to do it the best way possible, through love by giving us the ability to chose each path he presents us.

 

[bottomofsandal]

I think a lot of people have no idea what walking in the spirit is. They may imagine a zombie with no mind of his own, they may imagine a robot programmed a certain way. It's simply putting on the mind of Christ and trying to act like Him and think like Him. None of us no matter how hard we try will be able to do that every second of our lives. I wish God did over ride our free will or take mine away! So that i could be more robotic if it meant I would have the mind of Christ every second! It doesn't work that way. God gave us free will so we can learn to love. He could have easily made us perfect from the start if He wanted too. He chose to do it the best way possible, through love by giving us the ability to chose each path he presents us.

You are correct when you say people don't understand what it means to "walk in The Spirit". What saith The Lord ? True worshippers worship in Spirit and in truth. God is Spirit. Spiritual truths in Spiritual words.



Romans 8:5-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.






We don't "put on" the mind of Christ, The Bible says we have it already. Maybe you are referring to the armor of God in Ephesians ?


1 Corinthians 2:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.



Freewill does not exist, and freewill certainly does not evolve as you say in order that we learn how to love. People outside of The Church believe themselves to love...how did they evolve without God's grace ? We don't learn to love, God's love changes us and enables us to really love. Why would you believe man's carnal and sinful freewill would somehow learn to love with the love of God ?



2 Timothy 1:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.



Romans 5:5

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[myhopeisfound]

I have a question for anyone of any belief. I'd love a whole bunch of answers b/c I find it a facinating question. I do like to read what other denominations believe so this is not a trap of some sort. I chose to ask this question in this thread b/c I think it has a lot to do with Free Will.

"Is God in control of everything?" ...going as far to ask, is God in control of every molecule, atom, piece of dust, etc. in the universe?

And one more question (sorry just thought of something else)-

"Did God cause the Jews, Caiphas, Pontius Pilot, etc. to crucify Christ? Since He had it planned from the foundations, did he look down the corridor of time and see these people doing this and say "Ok, well these are the people that are going to crucify my Son." OR, did he hand pick each Jew that was present shouting 'crucify Him' and purposefully cause Pilot to deliever Christ over to them to be crucified? I know God DID choose Judas as the one who would betray Jesus and that he was destined for destruction (John 17:12). So why can't God choose anyone else for "destruction"? Why can He choose certain people in the Bible for destruction (Romans 9:21-24), but then right here,right now that does not apply?

Sorry...turned into lots a questions...anyone can answer any of these, you don't have to answer all of them. Thanks so much!

 

[Albion]

I have a question for anyone of any belief. I'd love a whole bunch of answers b/c I find it a facinating question. I do like to read what other denominations believe so this is not a trap of some sort. I chose to ask this question in this thread b/c I think it has a lot to do with Free Will.

"Is God in control of everything?" ...going as far to ask, is God in control of every molecule, atom, piece of dust, etc. in the universe?

And one more question (sorry just thought of something else)-

"Did God cause the Jews, Caiphas, Pontius Pilot, etc. to crucify Christ? Since He had it planned from the foundations, did he look down the corridor of time and see these people doing this and say "Ok, well these are the people that are going to crucify my Son." OR, did he hand pick each Jew that was present shouting 'crucify Him' and purposefully cause Pilot to deliever Christ over to them to be crucified? I know God DID choose Judas as the one who would betray Jesus and that he was destined for destruction (John 17:12). So why can't God choose anyone else for "destruction"? Why can He choose certain people in the Bible for destruction (Romans 9:21-24), but then right here,right now that does not apply?

Sorry...turned into lots a questions...anyone can answer any of these, you don't have to answer all of them. Thanks so much!

God IS in charge of everything. The real question is "Does God script or program everything (or does he allow some to operate on their own after he's set them into operation?)."

 

[stan1953]

We don't "put on" the mind of Christ, The Bible says we have it already. Maybe you are referring to the armor of God in Ephesians ?

That's right, Col. 3:14 says, Above all, put on love—the perfect bond of unity.

Freewill does not exist, and freewill certainly does not evolve as you say in order that we learn how to love. People outside of The Church believe themselves to love...how did they evolve without God's grace ? We don't learn to love, God's love changes us and enables us to really love. Why would you believe man's carnal and sinful freewill would somehow learn to love with the love of God ?

Well Jesus says in John 8:32, You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” That INCLUDES our will.
Paul said in Philemon 1:14, But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will. Paul said it, I believe it!

Love is what Paul tells us to "put on". I'll give you an analogy...in construction, when you need to build cement components of your building, you put up wooden forms and then fill them up with concrete. That is what we are to do as Christians. We "put on" the form and let Jesus fill it up, when it is set and real in our lives, we take down the forms. Jesus' love then becomes part of the foundation of our lives. Why would anyone want to believe that God did NOT restore us to the pre-sin state that Adam and Eve existed in? The Bible clearly says his salvation DOES that. Justified, Just as if I'd never sinned.
Life in Christ is NOT a lottery or crap shoot....it is our free will acceptance of God's gift. Freely we sinned, freely we accept salvation. Why would God change? Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever! Heb. 13:8

 

[myhopeisfound]

Why would God change? Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever! Heb. 13:8

I know God DID choose Judas as the one who would betray Jesus and that he was destined for destruction (John 17:12). So why can't God choose anyone else for "destruction"? Why can He choose certain people in the Bible for destruction (Romans 9:21-24), but then right here,right now that does not apply?

So this is my question...why WOULD God change? He destined some for destruction...and according to Romans 9, (v.14)What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (v.18) He has mercy on whomever He wills and hardens whomever He wills. (v.22)What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction...

 

[bottomofsandal]

Well Jesus says in John 8:32, You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” That INCLUDES our will.
Paul said in Philemon 1:14, But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will. Paul said it, I believe it!

There is a bunch of contortionism involved in your eisegesis. You seem to think Jesus is somehow interested in restoring or advancing man's freewill. Jesus came to set the captives free. Free from sin, death, and the devil. Plus, Paul calls us slaves to righteousness...doesn't sound like freewill to me. You simply don't have foundational Biblical support for what you are saying, for some reason you are safeguarding a manmade maleficient concept that does not even exist, nonetheless you believe it to be beneficent.


Jesus speaking to Jewish ears is asked by the Jews about being in held in bondage as descendants of Abraham. Jesus tells the Jews if they abide in His Word and listen to Him, they will be truly free indeed. Nothing about a freewill.

John 8:31-35

Amplified Bible (AMP)

31So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word [hold fast to My teachings and live in accordance with them], you are truly My disciples.
32And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
33They answered Him, We are Abraham's offspring (descendants) and have never been in bondage to anybody. What do You mean by saying, You will be set free?
34Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Whoever commits and practices sin is the slave of sin.35Now a slave does not remain in a household permanently (forever); the son [of the house] does remain forever.

35Now a slave does not remain in a household permanently (forever); the son [of the house] does remain forever.
36So if the Son liberates you [makes you free men], then you are really and unquestionably free.



Freedom in Christ is not freewill. Your will is not free, but is controlled by your mind and heart. The will is subservient to the heart and mind. The cross is not to establish or advance man's will; free or otherwise.

 

[Lee52]

I have a question for anyone of any belief. I'd love a whole bunch of answers b/c I find it a facinating question. I do like to read what other denominations believe so this is not a trap of some sort. I chose to ask this question in this thread b/c I think it has a lot to do with Free Will.

"Is God in control of everything?" ...going as far to ask, is God in control of every molecule, atom, piece of dust, etc. in the universe?

And one more question (sorry just thought of something else)-

"Did God cause the Jews, Caiphas, Pontius Pilot, etc. to crucify Christ? Since He had it planned from the foundations, did he look down the corridor of time and see these people doing this and say "Ok, well these are the people that are going to crucify my Son." OR, did he hand pick each Jew that was present shouting 'crucify Him' and purposefully cause Pilot to deliever Christ over to them to be crucified? I know God DID choose Judas as the one who would betray Jesus and that he was destined for destruction (John 17:12). So why can't God choose anyone else for "destruction"? Why can He choose certain people in the Bible for destruction (Romans 9:21-24), but then right here,right now that does not apply?

Sorry...turned into lots a questions...anyone can answer any of these, you don't have to answer all of them. Thanks so much!

I think if you ask yourself a question as to why GOD created man, it might go a long way in helping you understand Genesis 1:27. When you understand Genesis 1:27, I think you will need to understand Genesis chapters 2 and 3, also.

Did GOD create mankind in order to destroy mankind? OR, did GOD create mankind in order to have perfect fellowship with mankind in a perfect give and take relationship?

The basic question is: "Did GOD make Adam and Eve sin?

If GOD predestines every move mankind makes, then He created Adam and Eve fully intent on making them sin. They had no choice in the matter. GOD made Adam and Eve so that He could make them sin and die and bring destruction on mankind so that He could masochistically come and die, as Christ Jesus, at the hands of mankind, a cruel and agonizing death on the cross to reconcile mankind for the sin that HE, GOD, made Adam and Eve commit. If this is true, GOD predestines everything. We humans were never intended to have a relationship with GOD, but are merely GOD's toys.

Does that make sense?

OR

Does it make sense that GOD has foreknowledge and allows us to make free will mistakes and then provides a means to reconcile our relationship with Him?