Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

[alphanoodle]

[According to OT it is imperative that man be truly free, since real love demands it. I do not know anyone that has an absolutely freewill, only Adam and Eve would qualify. After the fall we have a limited freewill, but even this will is not free since it is governed by the heart and mind, not vice versa. The will is a servant to the heart and mind. The mind controlled by The Spirit is life and peace. Ergo, the will is really not “free” to do as it pleases.[/quote]

I totally agree. You know, it's worth noting how that we so-called Calvinists come to the same conclusions independently, from merely reading the scriptures, while those who oppose us seem to be all over the road with philosophical and emotional views, often crossing over the line into Calvinism, and then reversing it when they realize they have just assigned God too many rights.
You have stated something that I did in another post in different words, but parallel; that when we are born of God, he gives us new natures; namely, his heart of flesh, and puts his spirit in us so we, not only can, but will do his will. Ezekiel 36. This is the only hope to not fail to keep the law as Israel did. We are made new men, with the law of God integrated and hardwired into our souls. That precludes freewill in the same way that an unregenerate sinner is hardwired to sin and reject God's law, even if he is s teacher of the law, because he is 'in the flesh' Rom 7, 8. These things are biblical, and the bible comes together nicely with them. The bible would be only a few pages wide otherwise. I just read another scripture, in the Psalms that testifies to it. Psa 105:25 'He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.' This even attributes the evil will of sinners to the Sovereign will of God.
The problem is really that people confuse 'desire' with 'will'. They think it is wrong of God to impose his will, because that would mean contradicting our desire; but in that God controls 'their hearts' it is clear that he not only turns the volition, but the desire as well. We do it because we want to do it, and we love it. When God gives Joseph, or Daniel or captive Israel favor in the sight of their captors, he must involve their will and their affections.
'The heart of princes is as rivers of water in the hand of God, turning them wherever he wants it to go' Amen

 

[iLogos]

[According to OT it is imperative that man be truly free, since real love demands it. I do not know anyone that has an absolutely freewill, only Adam and Eve would qualify. After the fall we have a limited freewill, but even this will is not free since it is governed by the heart and mind, not vice versa. The will is a servant to the heart and mind. The mind controlled by The Spirit is life and peace. Ergo, the will is really not “free” to do as it pleases.

I totally agree. You know, it's worth noting how that we so-called Calvinists come to the same conclusions independently, from merely reading the scriptures, while those who oppose us seem to be all over the road with philosophical and emotional views, often crossing over the line into Calvinism, and then reversing it when they realize they have just assigned God too many rights.
You have stated something that I did in another post in different words, but parallel; that when we are born of God, he gives us new natures; namely, his heart of flesh, and puts his spirit in us so we, not only can, but will do his will. Ezekiel 36. This is the only hope to not fail to keep the law as Israel did. We are made new men, with the law of God integrated and hardwired into our souls. That precludes freewill in the same way that an unregenerate sinner is hardwired to sin and reject God's law, even if he is s teacher of the law, because he is 'in the flesh' Rom 7, 8. These things are biblical, and the bible comes together nicely with them. The bible would be only a few pages wide otherwise. I just read another scripture, in the Psalms that testifies to it. Psa 105:25 'He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.' This even attributes the evil will of sinners to the Sovereign will of God.
The problem is really that people confuse 'desire' with 'will'. They think it is wrong of God to impose his will, because that would mean contradicting our desire; but in that God controls 'their hearts' it is clear that he not only turns the volition, but the desire as well. We do it because we want to do it, and we love it. When God gives Joseph, or Daniel or captive Israel favor in the sight of their captors, he must involve their will and their affections.
'The heart of princes is as rivers of water in the hand of God, turning them wherever he wants it to go' Amen[/QUOTE]

I think you speak on behalf of too many men, and on behalf of God too much, a problem most Calvinists have, not all.

 

[alphanoodle]

I think you speak on behalf of too many men, and on behalf of God too much, a problem most Calvinists have, not all.

You do too much insulting, a problem most anti-Calvinists have, my friend. I'm not here for that.

 

[alphanoodle]

I'd like to step back for a moment and clarify some things concerning our Christian correspondence.
I just joined this forum a few days ago, because I was in search of an online place to find fellowship and edification. I think that Paul's description of the functioning church in Ephesians 4 is beautiful, 'the body growing together up to the head (Christ) by that which each part supplies' God has given each of us who are truly His children, a measure of his Holy Spirit - the Comforter. I would know nothing of the character and morality but for the fruit being born by his Spirit through my renewed heart.
He gives me the power to love (agape) my spiritual siblings, and even my bitter enemies, and to gently instruct those who oppose themselves, so long as I abide in the vine, which is my Lord.
I don't hate anybody; and I have people who literally have tried to kill me, and countless friends who have betrayed me; and I don't even know any of you people, so what should I have against you? Shall I wish to burn you at the stake over a few words, a mere difference of opinion? Is that the fruit of the Spirit of truth and love?
My Spirit tells me that I can speak the truth(as I believe it, be I right or wrong), in love. Agape love, says Paul, is not easily angered, and its fruit is love, peace, and self control.
James says the wisdom that is from above is both peaceable and easy to be entreated! How good it is when brethren can dwell together in unity. But this doesn't negate the natural diversity in perception and beliefs. In the end, these issues will all be put to rest when we in unison fall before the glorious throne of the God we debate, singing, 'Glory, praise, power, and honor to the God and the Lamb who has redeemed us.' It's impossible for me to be right all the time, being human, but I'm not about to depart from the nature and love and the fear of God in me, so as to begin a hostile correspondence with someone I will love and embrace throughout eternity. In the end, I really don't care how right or wrong any of us are. Are you born of the Spirit? That is the ultimate question. Are you written in the book of life? Are you bananas for Jesus? Then so am I, and you are my brother, sister, and I cannot love the begetter without loving his begotten ones. It's been a slice, beloved!

 

[iLogos]

I think you speak on behalf of too many men, and on behalf of God too much, a problem most Calvinists have, not all.

You do too much insulting, a problem most anti-Calvinists have, my friend. I'm not here for that.

No, your here to speak on behalf of too many people and groups.

As evident by your last post.

Oddly, opposing opinions is widely viewed as a insult to many Calvinists, not all, but certainly many.

The popular opinion of Calvinists towards those who do not agree with them..

"you just don't understand Calvinism, if you only took the time to read about it."

A common misconception, we disagree because we never bothered to research Calvinism. It seems it is beyond their grasp to consider we have studied Calvinism and it is precisely why we disagree so strongly.

or..

"people hate Calvinists"

another common misconception, while it is true many Calvinists are arrogant, no more so then say other Christians, I never met a person who "hates" calvinists. Sure they may strongley dislike the errors of Calvinism, but no hate towards our brothers who are blinded by it.

In all fairness I have met many outstanding Calvinists who Ihave the greatest admiration and respect for. They do not make it their mission to preach calvinism, and as it turns out they just happen to be only soft Calvinists. Which is certainly closer to the truth

 

[Albion]

No, your here to speak on behalf of too many people and groups.

As evident by your last post.

Oddly, opposing opinions is widely viewed as a insult to many Calvinists, not all, but certainly many.

The popular opinion of Calvinists towards those who do not agree with them..

"you just don't understand Calvinism, if you only took the time to read about it."

A common misconception, we disagree because we never bothered to research Calvinism. It seems it is beyond their grasp to consider we have studied Calvinism and it is precisely why we disagree so strongly.

or..

"people hate Calvinists"

I don't bill myself as a Calvinist, but I think it's beyond denying that Calvinistic beliefs are usually misunderstood by other Christians AND that Calvinists are popularly thought to be fanatics, oddballs, or bigots.

 

[iLogos]

I don't bill myself as a Calvinist, but I think it's beyond denying that Calvinistic beliefs are usually misunderstood by other Christians AND that Calvinists are popularly thought to be fanatics, oddballs, or bigots.

Like I said in my previous post, applies even more so to this one lol.

 

[alphanoodle]

Like I said in my previous post, applies even more so to this one lol.

I'm sorry that I offended you. I'm sorry that I have a differing view of scripture. I'm sure you're right. I probably am a real jerk because I'm a Calvinist. I didn't come here to make enemies out of fellow believers, and I'm trying to make peace. I'll accept whatever charge you level, and i ask that you appeal to God on my behalf to make me more like you feel I should be. If it sounds like a said something so terrible that you see me this way, I honestly, before God was not aware of it. If that is not enough for you then, well, I guess I have to leave it in God's hands because God knows that my heart is trying to obey him with the right attitude. I am a christian, and I never even read Calvin, like I told you. what I believe, I never learned from some theology book. I just picked up the bible one day and read Romans 9. Everything has evolved from there - period. The first time someone called me a Calvinist I had to ask, what the heck is that? I know a little of what they mean now, but I don't get my doctrine from men. It is entirely possible that I misinterpreted the whole bible. I accept that possibility, but until God removes my blindness, can you just put down your sword?

 

[iLogos]

I'm sorry that I offended you. I'm sorry that I have a differing view of scripture. I'm sure you're right. I probably am a real jerk because I'm a Calvinist. I didn't come here to make enemies out of fellow believers, and I'm trying to make peace. I'll accept whatever charge you level, and i ask that you appeal to God on my behalf to make me more like you feel I should be. If it sounds like a said something so terrible that you see me this way, I honestly, before God was not aware of it. If that is not enough for you then, well, I guess I have to leave it in God's hands because God knows that my heart is trying to obey him with the right attitude. I am a christian, and I never even read Calvin, like I told you. what I believe, I never learned from some theology book. I just picked up the bible one day and read Romans 9. Everything has evolved from there - period. The first time someone called me a Calvinist I had to ask, what the heck is that? I know a little of what they mean now, but I don't get my doctrine from men. It is entirely possible that I misinterpreted the whole bible. I accept that possibility, but until God removes my blindness, can you just put down your sword?

What a change of tone from your previous post you accused me of being insulting..

You do too much insulting, a problem most anti-Calvinists have, my friend. I'm not here for that.

I have no idea how to take you as you are all over the map.

 

[alphanoodle]

What a change of tone from your previous post you accused me of being insulting..



I have no idea how to take you as you are all over the map.

If saying that you insulted someone is an offensive remark, then I'm sorry. I didn't mean that offensively or as an attack at all. It was just a reaction to your preceding remark about Calvinists. Nor was my post to the other brother prior to that meant as a slam on anyone. I directed the statement only to him, because it was an honest observation I made. It, like everything I say, is merely a human, subjective opinion.
We are all bound by our conscience to believe what we perceive to be true. It's not our fault that we believe that way, We are only accountable to be sincere, even if sincerely wrong. It doesn't help in sharing what may be a differing, or even weird belief, when someone stereotypes us and dismisses us as if they have known us prior to the discussion. Whether that is what you meant, or even if you don't care, that is how I, and I'm sure the others you disagree with were made to feel with your constant generalizations about Calvinists. As I said from the start, I'm don't subscribe to Calvin, never even heard of Calvin until recently, and don't want my beliefs to be corrupted by Calvin's teachings, since people seem to see them as being worthy of such disdain. So far it seems that people use this forum to merely rant about Calvinism, so I would rather just be me: I am not some one dimensional moron in the cult of Calvin. I am a born again disciple of Jesus Christ. I love and fear the Lord, and I have great dread of saying or doing anything that will offend or harm one of my brethren in Christ, because we are one in the Lord, and the Judge is standing at the door.
If I even accidentally slight anyone so as to break that fellowship, Satan gets a foothold, my prayers are not accepted till I make amends, and I don't sleep or rest. I love my brethren. I never really had any earthly family so God provided me with His body as my only family, and I take these matters with deadly seriousness.
I know that it's stupid to believe I can have loving fellowship with everyone at this 'Christian Forum', but I'm bent on trying, because it tests and trains my character to do so. We don't have to argue over matters of disagreement. The well of Christ is far too deep to lose fellowship over such a trivial matter. Whether we are predestined or self electing, it doesn't affect the fact that we still got into the ark.
My heart rips to pieces that there is any cause to divide in the church, and I just see the Enemy laughing in victory. I will gladly shut up and go on to another thread that isn't such a source of emotional contention.
I don't know you, but if you are born again, I love you dearly, and you are important to me eternally. I don't want our first meeting in heaven to be tainted by misunderstandings or differences of opinion or slighted feelings.
I take all the blame. Just know that I meant nothing in a hateful or offensive spirit, beloved. If we know perfect doctrine, and have not love, it counts for nothing. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

 

[iLogos]

Then lets stop it here shall we?

Lets just move on.

 

[stan1953]

It seems that according to most Protestant churches, they do disagree with the notion of "Free-Will". However, I haven't seen this with most Christian Protestant Church members. It seems that most people seem to agree with the notion that one can choose their own destiny, rather than God having chose it for us already.

But, maybe my understanding of things is wrong, and someone on here can correct it? Are you a protestant, and do you disagree with the notion of Free Will? If not, then what denomination are you from, specifically? What does your church say about the notion of Free Will and is your belief aligned with that of your church's?

I have been a Christian for over 40 years. I am Pentecostal by belief and we for the most part believe in true free will. That is to say WE choose what to do in our lives. There is NO elect as far as salvation is concerned and once we are saved we continue in our walk based on our choices. We also believe that we can choose to walk away from Christ. Free will is sacrosanct to our life.

 

[iLogos]

Calvinism has more holes in it then swiss cheese. One really has to work hard and over time to keep it afloat! The deal breaker is of course free will

 

[VCViking]

Calvinism has more holes in it then swiss cheese. One really has to work hard and over time to keep it afloat! The deal breaker is of course free will

You know, you could always go over to the sub-forum, "Debate with a Calvinist", http://www.christianforums.com/f789/. The only problem is you can't insult people. This way, your thread has less of a chance of being closed for review and you could prove all those unbiblical Calvinists wrong. Oh...but do not quote Spurgeon because he was a Calvinist to.

 

[iLogos]

You know, you could always go over to the sub-forum, "Debate with a Calvinist", http://www.christianforums.com/f789/. The only problem is you can't insult people. This way, your thread has less of a chance of being closed for review and you could prove all those unbiblical Calvinists wrong. Oh...but do not quote Spurgeon because he was a Calvinist to.

Spurgeon was a soft Calvinist. I've read many of his sermons which is why i do respect and admire him. His primary concern was preaching the gospel.

 

[stan1953]

Calvinism has more holes in it then swiss cheese. One really has to work hard and over time to keep it afloat! The deal breaker is of course free will

Yes well I'll take the Bible over Tulips anyday!

 

[DeaconDean]

You know, you could always go over to the sub-forum, "Debate with a Calvinist", http://www.christianforums.com/f789/. The only problem is you can't insult people. This way, your thread has less of a chance of being closed for review and you could prove all those unbiblical Calvinists wrong. Oh...but do not quote Spurgeon because he was a Calvinist to.

I'll say a big AMEN to that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[myhopeisfound]

If saying that you insulted someone is an offensive remark, then I'm sorry. I didn't mean that offensively or as an attack at all. It was just a reaction to your preceding remark about Calvinists. Nor was my post to the other brother prior to that meant as a slam on anyone. I directed the statement only to him, because it was an honest observation I made. It, like everything I say, is merely a human, subjective opinion.
We are all bound by our conscience to believe what we perceive to be true. It's not our fault that we believe that way, We are only accountable to be sincere, even if sincerely wrong. It doesn't help in sharing what may be a differing, or even weird belief, when someone stereotypes us and dismisses us as if they have known us prior to the discussion. Whether that is what you meant, or even if you don't care, that is how I, and I'm sure the others you disagree with were made to feel with your constant generalizations about Calvinists. As I said from the start, I'm don't subscribe to Calvin, never even heard of Calvin until recently, and don't want my beliefs to be corrupted by Calvin's teachings, since people seem to see them as being worthy of such disdain. So far it seems that people use this forum to merely rant about Calvinism, so I would rather just be me: I am not some one dimensional moron in the cult of Calvin. I am a born again disciple of Jesus Christ. I love and fear the Lord, and I have great dread of saying or doing anything that will offend or harm one of my brethren in Christ, because we are one in the Lord, and the Judge is standing at the door.
If I even accidentally slight anyone so as to break that fellowship, Satan gets a foothold, my prayers are not accepted till I make amends, and I don't sleep or rest. I love my brethren. I never really had any earthly family so God provided me with His body as my only family, and I take these matters with deadly seriousness.
I know that it's stupid to believe I can have loving fellowship with everyone at this 'Christian Forum', but I'm bent on trying, because it tests and trains my character to do so. We don't have to argue over matters of disagreement. The well of Christ is far too deep to lose fellowship over such a trivial matter. Whether we are predestined or self electing, it doesn't affect the fact that we still got into the ark.
My heart rips to pieces that there is any cause to divide in the church, and I just see the Enemy laughing in victory. I will gladly shut up and go on to another thread that isn't such a source of emotional contention.
I don't know you, but if you are born again, I love you dearly, and you are important to me eternally. I don't want our first meeting in heaven to be tainted by misunderstandings or differences of opinion or slighted feelings.
I take all the blame. Just know that I meant nothing in a hateful or offensive spirit, beloved. If we know perfect doctrine, and have not love, it counts for nothing. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

alphanoodle, you have a tremendous love as well as a great respect for brothers and sisters who are on this forum. Your posts are thought out and very personal and if someone is going to slam you for what you write instead of lovingly debate you then may our Lord and Savior forgive them. Keep up with the Bible reading. One of my favorite passages lately has been Ezekiel 36:22-Ezekiel 37. Beautiful. v.5 "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live." v.14 "And I will put my Spirit with in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." Keep up the heartfelt posts. I believe you make our Savior smile.

 

[bottomofsandal]

I have been a Christian for over 40 years. I am Pentecostal by belief and we for the most part believe in true free will. That is to say WE choose what to do in our lives. There is NO elect as far as salvation is concerned and once we are saved we continue in our walk based on our choices. We also believe that we can choose to walk away from Christ. Free will is sacrosanct to our life.

Maybe, but The Bible saith otherwise...


Proverbs 16:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 A man’s heart plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.

 

[stan1953]

Maybe, but The Bible saith otherwise...


Proverbs 16:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 A man’s heart plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.

Saith otherwise?

I think the Lord both plans and directs. James 4:15, "Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”

Either way it is up to us to obey and follow. He may direct our steps but we walk.