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Wrigley said:He had no such thing.
You don't see the connection of a judging person being judgemental of others (in certain circumstances) because he himself is throwing out accusations that he hopes may shadow his own failings?
1THEREFORE thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
(Romans2:1)
MormonFriend said:However, he could do so with Biblical endorsement.
Wrigley said:DA said:Utter nonsense!
Complete rubbish!
Did you expect anything else?
TOmNossor said:From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:
Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.[/font]
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7114.asp
Note the last phrase, to become god. LDS deification is a unification with God the Father, too.
Happyinhisgrace,happyinhisgrace said:First, let me reiterate that it is wholly inappropriate for you to question my honesty as you have done. I believe one of two things caused this and you may provide third if I am wrong. One possible cause (which I do not think is most likely) is that your questioning of my honesty speaks volumes about your honesty and integrity.
LOL, you just did the same thing that you told him he had no right to do.
Grace
Der Alter:Der Alter said:Another out-of-context quote from Mormons-Я-Us. I will shortly be linking to my previous posts concerning this endless laundry list of partial, out-of-context, quotes. Most people who cut and paste them have never read the primary sources.
Observe that Jerome quotes Psalm 82 to document his statement. When read in context this Psalm is addressed to corrupt human judges who, judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked, [they] know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in darkness: Somebody please explain to me how men who have become perfected, and progressed and were made gods, by the Father, (according to LDS) can be corrupt? If the subject of this Psalm are actually gods, how can God demote them and cause them to die like ordinary men?This Psalm refers to ordinary men, judges, who were called Elohim, and the majority of ECF who speak of deification quote this Psalm. Note that the Jewish scholars never interpreted this Psalm to mean deification or that men can becomes gods.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; [Elohim] and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
John Gill, Exposition of the Whole Bible,-Psa 82:1 - God standeth in the congregation of the mighty,.... The Syriac version renders it, "in the congregation of angels"; they are mighty, and excel in strength, and there is a large company of them, even an innumerable one, and who surround the throne of the Majesty on high. Christ, who is God over all, was among those on Mount Sinai, and when he ascended to heaven; and with these he will descend when he comes a second time, Psa_68:17. The Targum [Aramaic translation during the Babylonian captivity. DA] interprets it of the righteous thus,
"God, whose majesty (or Shechinah) dwells in the congregation of the righteous that are strong in the law.'' . . .
he judgeth among the gods: which the Syriac version renders "angels" again; and so Aben Ezra interprets it of them, who are so called, Psa_8:5, but rather civil magistrates are meant, the rulers and judges of the people, who go by this name of "elohim", or gods, in Exo_21:6, and are so called because they are the powers ordained of God, are representatives of him, are his vicegerents and deputies under him; should act in his name, according to his law, and for his glory, and are clothed with great power and authority from and under him; and therefore are before styled the "mighty".
reign, and princes decree justice; by whom princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth; and to whom they are all accountable, and will be themselves judged by him another day, Pro_8:15 so the Targum,
"in the midst of the judges of truth he judges.''
(a)בעדת אל "in congregatione Dei", Pagninus, Cocceius, Gejerus, Michaelis; so Vatablus, Junius & Tremellius, Piscator, Ainsworth.
Psa 82:6 - I have said, ye are gods,. . .The Targum is, "I said, as angels are ye accounted"; and so judges and civil magistrates had need to be as angels, and to have the wisdom of them; see 2Sa_14:20. Jarchi interprets it of angels, but magistrates are undoubtedly meant:
and all of you are children of the most High; the Targum here again renders it,
"the angels of the most High:''
As for the other ECF quotes, here are posts where I have discussed many of these that are quoted here, partially and out-of-context. Very, very few if any ECF in the 1st three centuries of the church wrote of men becoming gods, without qualification. The teaching of the LDS church on this is unBiblical, unhistorical heresy.
http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1308395&postcount=117
http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1284684&postcount=97
http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1281414&postcount=93
Happyinhisgrace:happyinhisgrace said:Joseph Smith embraced many things that the people in his area rejected. Peep stones, treasure hunting, divination etc. What is your point? Are you saying that because he embaced pagan beliefs and others didn't, that makes him somehow more reliable?
Many scholors also say there is no God. Many scholors say there is only one God. Many scholors say that DNA proves that native americans came from Eastern Asia and not at all from the middle east. Many scholors say that evolution is the only answer to how man came into being. Do you also believe all of these things because many scholors say it is so?
I believe the Bible, the Word of God. If what an says does not match up with what the word of God teaches, then it is of no use to me. I have made the choice to follow God, not man.
God Bless-
Grace
This is a good point. I wish I was so clever. I in truth did not have that in mind when I posted what I did about Der Alter.MormonFriend said:You don't see the connection of a judging person being judgemental of others (in certain circumstances) because he himself is throwing out accusations that he hopes may shadow his own failings?
I cannot speak for TOm when I said: "However, he could do so with Biblical endorsement." I am just pointing out that this concept is taught in the Bible.
Happyinhisgrace,happyinhisgrace said:This Psalm refers to ordinary men, judges, who were called Elohim, and the majority of ECF who speak of deification quote this Psalm. Note that the Jewish scholars never interpreted this Psalm to mean deification or that men can becomes gods.
Absolutly!!!!! Del Alter, you got that right. The jewish people believed and still believe in one and only one God. The whole reason the people wanted to kill Christ was because he claimed the same nature and attributes as God and the jewish people believed in only one God EVER and thought it blastfamy for Jesus to claim these atributes that only the one true God could possess. By everything Jesus said about himself, he was claiming to be the very nature of God and the jews never believed in more than one God, never. The first Christians were jews and they didn't believe in more than one God. Context people, context!
Del Alter, keep up the good work, your posts are very right on with God's word.
God Bless-Grace
Der Alter,Der Alter said:I have noted the last phrase and I have also noted the very next paragraph. What we have here is a blatant, dishonest, partial quote deliberately ignoring the context of the statement in order to try to prop up the LDS heresy that men can become gods. Do you truly not understand this, TOm?This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.EO does not teach that men can or do become gods. Basil's view is orthodox as defined by the paragraph which follows. "Partakers of the divine nature." As I said elsewhere, I partake of water but I am not a river, lake, or ocean. I partake of meat but I am not a cow.
These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.
TOmNossor said:Happyinhisgrace,
You noticed that! Terrific! I thought it would be obvious that this was intentional and well understood when I used the identical phrase Der Alter used, speaks volumes about your honesty and integrity. Of course we might note that I unlike Der Alter was very clear that I did not actually think it was him attempted to be dishonest that resulted in his mischaracterization of me.
BTW, I didn't actually have the Biblical quote in mind, but that is interesting too.
Charity, TOm
TOmNossor said:Happyinhisgrace,
The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=Gods, but that was untenable.
I recognize that you do not like the interpretation of Gods word that LDS, Catholics, EO, and the ECF present, but it is at least as valid as yours.
Charity, TOm
The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=Gods, but that was untenable.TOmNossor said:Happyinhisgrace,
The problem with this gods=judges is that it is untenable. Jerome did not mean this. His words to not support this. You yourself tried to change his words by making gods=Gods, but that was untenable.
I recognize that you do not like the interpretation of Gods word that LDS, Catholics, EO, and the ECF present, but it is at least as valid as yours.
Charity, TOm
TOmNossor said:Happyinhisgrace:
Joseph Smith embraced many things that the people in his area rejected. Peep stones, treasure hunting, divination etc. What is your point? Are you saying that because he embaced pagan beliefs and others didn't, that makes him somehow more reliable?
TOm:
Actually, if he at some point believed in the things you listed, it would be consistent with the culture in which he lived. So if that where my point I would be mistaken.
I said,
But despite the environment in which Joseph Smith lived where deification was rejected, Joseph Smith claimed not that pagans believe in deification, but that the early church did.
So my point is that he had no access to documents largely held by the Vatican. He sight unseen declared that the early church believed in deification and he was restoring this belief. Now that the ECF can be studied we see that his claim is true. It makes him reliable because he did not have an earthly way to come to this truth. This becomes another one of a long list of highly unlikely coincidences or an indication of the truth of what Joseph Smith claimed. Get it now?
Happyinhisgrace:
Many scholors also say there is no God. Many scholors say there is only one God. Many scholors say that DNA proves that native americans came from Eastern Asia and not at all from the middle east. Many scholors say that evolution is the only answer to how man came into being. Do you also believe all of these things because many scholors say it is so?
TOm:
Yes, but I am pointing to patristic scholars who see deification in the ECF. Der Alter is well read and intelligent, but he is at odds with the consensus among patristic scholars. I have posted a great many ECF quotes that show deification. Der Alter seems willing to assign the term judges to any use of the word gods he is uncomfortable with. I point to scholars to back up what the words clearly say. I agree that scholars are not infallible. But when Der Alter says that I have not read every word of the ECFs, he is actually correct. I do recognize that many patristic scholars have done this and still come to the same conclusion that I do.
Happyinhisgrace:
I believe the Bible, the Word of God. If what an says does not match up with what the word of God teaches, then it is of no use to me. I have made the choice to follow God, not man.
TOm:
I believe in the Bible too, but the Bible speaks of deification.
Charity, TOm
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