Do masons build?

Skip? Skip? Signed off again.

Must be another of those "I often like to think about what is posted before I respond to it" situations.

But all right. You're off the hook. You're apparently a government-recognized opponent of churches and associations that hold religious views you disapprove of. But OTOH, I don't take any pleasure from your squirming to avoid simple explanations, so I'll drop it.

Skip Sampson said:

Assess the facts presented by both sides and decide for yourself. You've made conclusions on the Tea Party, even though you are not a member. So too, you can make conclusions on Masonry from the facts presented.

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LOL. I make my conclusions regarding the Tea Party based on the posters they carry and the candidates they support.

1. Albion denies there are penalties in the obligations of the degrees, even though the same ritual containing them refers to them as such in the discussion concerning temperance. Too, the EA sign (hand across the throat) is also in reference to those penalties. These are facts that you can research and confirm yourself; thus, you can determine for yourself who is telling the truth.

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If the rituals are secret they are not going to post them online which suggests that what I might find online comes from sources hostile to the Masons and therefore suspect.

3. Simpleman25 claims that the EA candidates in his jurisdiction have seen the EA ritual and have been coached by a lodge member to memorized their parts in the upcoming degree. In fact, candidates never see the ritual of the degree before hand unless they look it up online themselves. I've never heard of a lodge that showed a candidate a cipher ritual (i.e., a ritual book written in simple code) before his degree work nor would any other Mason on this forum state that happens in their jurisdiction. What Simpleman25 refers to occurs after the degree work, in which the man must recite from memory key parts of the degree, often including the obligation. As above, you now have two different statements that you can assess, two different views that you can believe or not believe. What will you do?

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Simpleman is in a better position to know what is done in his lodge and I have
no reason to think he would lie.

While you are at it, ask him on what basis he refers to EMFJ as a cult.

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Cult is a word which Christians throw around too easily, but in my experience most counter-cult movements tend to be very cultish.

Would you consider my religion a 'cult'?

See for yourself what facts he has based that charge on and how forthcoming he is to support his claims.

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I realize you have them over a barrel here because they are not supposed to reveal the details of their rituals to non-Masons. Therefore it is not so easy to refute misinformation.

The internet has made ignorance unforgiveable, as the truth, which rarely hides, but is often obfuscated, is far more available to its seeker.

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Mmmm. If I relied on the internet to get my information about Islam . . .

Beyond that, consider why Albion and Simpleman25 are acting in such a manner. I think it is by design, and the Masons on this forum have decided that refusal to discuss these matters isn't working, so they are concentrating on destroying my credibility.

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Seems to me you were the one who called Simpleman a liar.

Albion said:

"Cornerstone Ministries, Fayetteville, NC, research, writing & teaching about cults and false religions (i.e., non-Christian), and my income from it averaged $0.00 per month, which is the norm for my ministry work."

It's all over the internet that your address is the same as their address. If that can be explained, please do so and settle this for us. What is YOUR organization's registered address, if not their address?. And how can you use their name, even if the address is different.

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I think there is more than one Cornerstone Ministry in Fayetteville. One appears to be a black church. Judging by his politics, Skip Sampson is white. I guessing Skip Sampson's 'organization' bears the same name because it is basically a one-man operation which operates out of his home. He probably named it that when he lived in Virginia and didn't change it when he moved to Fayetteville although another group bears that name there.

smaneck said:

If the rituals are secret they are not going to post them online which suggests that what I might find online comes from sources hostile to the Masons and therefore suspect.

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Actually, there is hardly anything that IS secret, and certainly not the ritual. Masonic organizations have filmed them and distributed these films through the History Channel, for example. I can think of only a few words that are actually what might be called secret...and that has had nothing to do with Skip's demands. What Simpleman wrote is what Simpleman experienced, and what I wrote is what I experienced, but Skip has already decided what he wants for an answer. That he accuses both Simpleman and myself of lies when there have been none is, of course, regrettable.

smaneck said:

I think there is more than one Cornerstone Ministry in Fayetteville. One appears to be a black church. Judging by his politics, Skip Sampson is white. I guessing Skip Sampson's 'organization' bears the same name because it is basically a one-man operation which operates out of his home. He probably named it that when he lived in Virginia and didn't change it when he moved to Fayetteville although another group bears that name there.

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Could be. But if so, I can't imaging going to the lengths he did to avoid such a simple answer.

Albion said:

What Simpleman wrote is what Simpleman experienced, and what I wrote is what I experienced,

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Yeah, I sort of figured that the differences in what the two of you stated was because different Lodges did it a little differently.

Albion said:

Could be. But if so, I can't imaging going to the lengths he did to avoid such a simple answer.

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I don't think Skip wants people to realize that his "organization" is really just a personal obsession.

smaneck said:

I don't think Skip wants people to realize that his "organization" is really just a personal obsession.

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Hmmm. Here's what IRS says about such organizations:

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.

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People are claiming Biblical Christianity. This is not an easy phrase to define. If it were there would not be as many denominations. Since my church has zero issue with Masonry guess I am in line with Biblical Christianity. Better yet I know it is not a guess, I am in line with Biblical Christianity.

smaneck said:

Yeah, I sort of figured that the differences in what the two of you stated was because different Lodges did it a little differently.

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In a nutshell you described the hurdle that skip can't seem to navigate. He relies to much on GL documents, believing them to be the final word.

My lodge for example openly states that only Christians will be allowed to join. Other masons on this forum don't have that guideline in their lodge. What does skip do? Call me a liar. While my brothers on here may not agree with what we do, they know how we accomplish it. Skip doesn't have a clue how. Why? He's not been there to know.

For a person like skip its easier for his delusions to believe everything is black and white. Well, in the real world we all know that's false.

He proclaims to want a discussion. Albion and I have offered it to him. He has declined by his own rules. He can't remain honest.

What's comical is that my brother Albion and I don't see eye to eye on certain issues. We've even had a minor flare up. Since we are brothers, we can stand shoulder to shoulder vs a common opponent. Yet skip thinks we are somehow in cahoots. Fact is only time we've talked is here in an open forum. That doesn't fit in skips conspiracy theory. Then again skip has never let something as trivial as the truth get in the way of his nonsense.

He's still wondering why I believe emfj and e511 are cults. I've explained it in great detail nnumerous times. Instead he uses it as a distraction when he's cornered. Another trademark play from their playbook.

Albion said:

Hmmm. Here's what IRS says about such organizations:

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I think what that means is that they can't personally make money off of it, not that it doesn't serve his personal obsession. Skip may be telling the truth when he says that he does not make any money off of his 'ministry.' I'm guessing he set it up as a 501c as much to give it legitimacy and respectability as anything else. Also, it probably allows him to take a tax write-off for any personal expenses he might incur in this crusade.

americanvet said:

People are claiming Biblical Christianity.

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Ah, you know full well what Biblical Christianity is. It is my Christianity versus your Christianity.

Okay, not mine because I'm a Baha'i. But you get the picture.

Seriously, in my experience it is the kind of Christianity that would have us living in the second century when women were subordinate to men, when slavery was okay, etc. I say second century, rather than first century because they are largely relying on those texts of the NT that weren't written until the second century.

Albion said:

In my online experience, it's understood that questions are taken in order.

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Were that the case, you'd have answered mine, as I had asked you about your jurisdiction some time ago. Yet another opportunity for you to live up to your own rules.

I am first now trying to find out who this person is who runs a one-man non-profit organization but spends no or almost no money on the purpose for that organization to exist...an organization that you say--and your press releases--say has the address and name of a functioning church, but which has no connection to you (so you have said). You do not even reveal your church affiliation, yet your tax-supported pastime is lecturing people that your version of Christianity is the true one. Yes, I'd like to have answers.

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Well, I can help you out there.
1. The person running it is me.
2. I never said I spent no money on my ministry; rather, I said I had no income from it. You really should stick to the facts, for a change.
3. I have issued no press releases.
4. I have not claimed that my ministry has the same address as a church in Fayetteville. That claim was made by you, and is simply incorrect. In fact, you don't know my address, only that I live in Fayetteville.
5. My church affiliation is posted on this forum. Maybe one of your friends will help you look it up.
6. It's neither tax-supported nor a pastime. A little effective research on your part.... oh, never mind.
7. I have no version of Christianity of my own, though I do follow Biblical Christianity.
8. Judging on what you've spewed out today, I really don't think you want answers at all. You apparently have all you want.

It's all over the internet that your address is the same as their address. If that can be explained, please do so and settle this for us.

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Ok. My explanation is this: you don't know how to make effective internet searches, nor do you know how to assess the results.

What is YOUR organization's registered address, if not their address?

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Well, let's see: you stated that the church's address is the same as that of my ministry, then turn around and ask me what my address is. And you fail to see how silly that looks? You don't strike me as a very introspective person. As to my address, you'll have to find that out on your own. I will give you a hint, though: it's in Fayetteville, NC.

And how can you use their name, even if the address is different.

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Easy: it's not just their name. Do another internet search and see how many there are out there. Perhaps you will achieve some measure of enlightenment.

Are you ordained?

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Nope.

there's plenty about it that frankly doesn't appear to add up.

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Might be due to deficiencies in your math skills. Why not? You've already shown deficiencies in logic, reason, research and analysis.

I'm willing to suffer such insults in order to get to the truth of this matter.

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The only insults here are those to our intelligence by the contents of your posts. I'd be embarrassed to have written such garbage, but then my standards are far higher than yours.

But perhaps I've misjudged you; maybe you don't realize that April Fool's day isn't today. Or maybe you are trying to get out in front of the occasion by these posts. If so, you've done well, grasshopper, with your hilarious posts. Cordially, Skip.

smaneck said:

I make my conclusions regarding the Tea Party based on the posters they carry and the candidates they support.

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How can you make such conclusions since you are not a member? My point was this: you make conclusions based on the facts as you perceive them, as do we all. I do not have to be a Mason to know what it teaches.

If the rituals are secret

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Masons keep telling me they are not. Many of the rituals I own were sold to me by Grand Lodges. The only secret parts therein deal with certain words, modes of recognition and so forth.

Simpleman is in a better position to know what is done in his lodge and I have no reason to think he would lie.

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I have every reason to think he has done so. I guess you aren't going to ask him about his charges of me belonging to a cult.

Would you consider my religion a 'cult'?

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No.

Therefore it is not so easy to refute misinformation.

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How true, and Simpleman25 and Albion are counting on it.

Seems to me you were the one who called Simpleman a liar.

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What I said is this:

Skip said:

If I am right, and no lodge has an EA candidate memorize his obligation before he is initiated, that would make Simpleman a liar.

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Have you noted how the other Masons have avoided comment on his claim? Rather telling, I'd say. I hope Simpleman25 knows what happens to liars when they die. Cordially, Skip.

smaneck said:

Seriously, in my experience it is the kind of Christianity that would have us living in the second century when women were subordinate to men, when slavery was okay, etc.

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Gracious. Americanvet weighs in and you can do nothing but insult him. Is that how your religion teaches you to treat those of different beliefs?

Seriously, you have no clue as to what Biblical Christianity teaches. Cordially, Skip.

Skip Sampson said:

How can you make such conclusions since you are not a member? My point was this: you make conclusions based on the facts as you perceive them, as do we all. I do not have to be a Mason to know what it teaches.

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Here is the difference. The Freemasons is a secret society. The Tea Party is not. If I want to attend a Tea Party meeting I am welcome to do so. You are not welcome to attend a Freemason meeting.

Many of the rituals I own were sold to me by Grand Lodges.

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Yeah, but it doesn't sound to me like there is that much uniformity. And if this information is so freely given as you suggest, doesn't that give lie to your assertion that candidates have no idea what they are swearing to until they are standing there naked and blindfolded?

The only secret parts therein deal with certain words, modes of recognition and so forth.

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Again, then why are you talking about candidates not knowing what they are getting into?

I have every reason to think he has done so. I guess you aren't going to ask him about his charges of me belonging to a cult.

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Naah, that because I see counter-cult movements as cultish myself.

But I'm glad to hear you don't consider my religion a cult. Now is Freemasonry a cult?

What I said is this:Have you noted how the other Masons have avoided comment on his claim? Rather telling, I'd say.

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What it tells me is that it is likely that candidates are not always given a script to memorize. But since I have no reason to think Simpleman is a liar, I would presume they do so at his Lodge.

Skip Sampson said:

Gracious. Americanvet weighs in and you can do nothing but insult him. Is that how your religion teaches you to treat those of different beliefs?

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I doubt very much if he was insulted. If so, he can tell me himself.

Seriously, you have no clue as to what Biblical Christianity teaches.

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I know what the Bible says and I know what your denomination teaches (he is Southern Baptist, people.) I wouldn't equate that with Biblical Christianity in any case. You will say the Bible teaches that homosexuality is an abomination, and I will point out that the Bible also teaches that eating catfish is an abomination. You will condemn the one and continue to do the other, I suspect.

Isn't picking and choosing fun?

Skip Sampson said:

1. The person running it is me.

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OK. That was answered before.

2. I never said I spent no money on my ministry; rather, I said I had no income from it. You really should stick to the facts, for a change.

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I never asked if you spent any money on your "ministry." I asked what you did with the income ("No one would maintain such an organization except for the financial benefits...but you don't spend any [or is it 'little'?]. You can't just stockpile contributions for no purpose as I understand tax-free organizations.")

3. I have issued no press releases.

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Then some have been issued for you.

4. I have not claimed that my ministry has the same address as a church in Fayetteville.

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I didn't say that you did.

5. My church affiliation is posted on this forum. Maybe one of your friends will help you look it up.

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It would have taken you fewer keystrokes just to answer, rather than avoiding an answer.

4. It's neither tax-supported nor a pastime. A little effective research on your part.... oh, never mind.

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You have a tax-exempted, federally recognized organization that amounts to you alone, and you don't consider that to be taxpayer-supported?

Well, let's see: you stated that the church's address is the same as that of my ministry, then turn around and ask me what my address is.

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I was giving you the opportunity to settle the matter rather than simply make accusations, as you do, and refuse all answers.

I will give you a hint, though: it's in Fayetteville, NC.

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That wasn't in question. It whether or not it's the same as the church in Fayetteville by that name.

Easy: it's not just their name. Do another internet search and see how many there are out there.

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In Fayetteville, NC? I doubt that there are more, but again you prefer to avoid answering. And considering the stream of insults and accusations you closed your post with, I'm interpreting that to mean you've ended the dialogue.

Albion said:

And BTW I don't need to wear merit badges and a little scarf around my neck to be a Mason.

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It doesn't seem to bother Washington.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...090915-05-george-washington-freemason_big.jpg

smaneck said:

Ah, you know full well what Biblical Christianity is. It is my Christianity versus your Christianity.

Okay, not mine because I'm a Baha'i. But you get the picture.

Seriously, in my experience it is the kind of Christianity that would have us living in the second century when women were subordinate to men, when slavery was okay, etc. I say second century, rather than first century because they are largely relying on those texts of the NT that weren't written until the second century.

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Absolutely. This is why there are different church groups. It's like the Baptist saying they are Biblical and the Methodist are not. They are both Christian groups who happen to view parts of the Bible different. Just like the Masons here see no conflict with their faith and the lodge. I would not want someone in my lodge who thought it was against their faith to be there.