do I hear an echo? ~ site changes?

[Tonks]

As far as I see this, the site is trying to unite 2 complete opposites& that is causing most all the trouble.

I almost wish they'de consider a split of CF into liberal/unorthodox &
conservative/orthodox & keep them apart than try to pretend the 2
will ever mesh politically or spiritually in either worldview & MOST of
the conservatives I know who've left have left due to the
this war. (probly equally liberal as well).

I think that both the liberals and conservatives need to get over themselves. It is a website. I see more people concerned about their theological worldview than actually acting like Christians. Frankly, I see many people on both sides that treat unbelievers better than they do Christians.

CJ has a point that when something is hemorraging, people do tend to go with the tide & just bail ship with the rest to find another
popular site.

If that is the route that people want to go more power to them. If the people that are most offended leave...maybe peace will return.

I'd also like to say that some transparency regarding staff is also
very necessary - as it is, the power has shifted far too much on both sides over the past year & 1/2.

Noted. However...you may be concerned with "power shifts" but staff is concerned with running the site. The only time "conservative or liberal" is generally mentioned is when we're discussing how this particular forum is in yet another meltdown because people feel the need to engage in the "batten down the hatches...the liberals are coming!" nonsense.

The elections of mods didn't work well (mods had too little control & were at the utter mercy of members in that fiasco of a time) -
then what we have now which is everything is blind on member's ends, we can't speak out in any posts, rules have been changing to start reading more into posts to decide violations, & we can't explain our reported posts, let alone even know they were reported or anything.

We ran a report (in the Theology section) back in the end of 2006 / beginning of 2007 to see how reports were breaking down...was there a violation, not a violation etc. ~70% reports ended up being no violation. I'd venture to guess, however, if I looked at this particular forum that a substantially greater number of the reported posts would turn out to be violations. I don't particularly care for liberal theology as in many cases I find the Gospel to be absent. However, I really don't like how some people use this particular forum as their own little soapbox to trash anything that they disagree with. It is a good thing that I haven't been listened to as I've suggested that it be closed several times as I don't really think that it brings much (either for inreach or outreach) to CF at large.

The control needs to be balanced & being at staff's mercy to this
extent is truly unsettling; esp. when you know some dislike you.

The atmosphere here feels like it's changed - almost feel stifled.

There are plenty of forums on the internet and I don't see people hollering about rules, staff, "conspiracies," "balance" or anything else. Indeed...I know many people that post at other sites with no problems but they come here and act like jerks.

If you are feeling stifled...it is a big internet. Staff doesn't really have the time or desire to get into the "us versus them, conservative vs liberal" argument anymore. There have been over 1,000 unique registered members that have logged into the site today and I'd venture to guess that 95% of them are happily posting away. Those 95% percent of people are more important than the 5% that do nothing but complain all of the time.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't think it's a good to have people modding sections they aren't allowed to be members of it's just asking for trouble. I'm going to wait see but I have feeling this going cause far more problems than it solves.

if it's becuz of low numbers of mods, then it may be necessary
to have to do.

We'll just have to wait & see - but no transparency w/ staff PLUS
having them oversee these areas is a concern to me.

 

[Nadiine]

I think that both the liberals and conservatives need to get over themselves. It is a website. I see more people concerned about their theological worldview than actually acting like Christians. Frankly, I see many people on both sides that treat unbelievers better than they do Christians.

You think this is about US? Your posts seem to relay apathy in a way.
This isn't about US - it's about preservation of God's word on a site that is claiming its Christian.
It's about the message this "Christian" forum sends the lost as people post
that fornication is just fine & dandy - & don't bother to get married,
you can live together instead, & Christian wife swapping is just great,
homosexuality is a gift from God & blah blah blah.........

It's ONLY becuz of God's truth that I care enough to battle this crap
daily becuz it can harm alot of people spiritually.

If you don't have that passion, then fine - but don't snub others
who do for giving a crap, ok?
It's not about ME - it's about others souls who are taught falsely in
God's name which CF seems to be fine with.

Honestly, I wish I didn't give a crap so I could just free up my
time to do other things.

I don't particularly care for liberal theology as in many cases I find the Gospel to be absent.

I reject it becuz most declare the Bible has errors & isn't God's truth, they don't use the bible much or they ignore blatant verses to promote moral sin.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.


Well, IMHO, the "goal" is to facilitate conversation....

On the one hand, people should be upheld in their desire to express their view - however unpopular or stupid (lol). Some can be rather passionate and opinioniated. People come here with a wide range of "agendas." Staff exists to insure they can share their views.

On the other hand, conversation can stop if it turns personal or diverts from the topic or seems INTENTIONALLY upsetting. Rules exist in all these websites - each written in their own way - to try to keep the discussion "on topic" and polite.

Finding that "balance" ain't always easy. PERSONALLY, I'd rather "sin" on the side of freedom than police-state. IMHO, jerks usually shoot themselves in the foot and do themselves more harm than good - and often (but not always!!!!!) eventually go away; and a certain "think skin" is required in some of our forums (GT for example). I think CF has ebbed and flowed here. When I first joined 3+ years ago, it was more open and embracing, thing are more limiting now (I liked it better before, lol).

What I've never appreciated about the "CF WAY" is the police-like hand and the secrecy of it all. I think posters need to know they have been reported and specificly for what. They need to have a "voice" in the Report. And the goal should should be to HELP the poster and conversation, not police the place. YES, I know, jerks exist. And, ultimately, they need to be handled as such. But I think typically, we have good people that maybe got a little overly passionate or frustrated. In stead of an official staff PM with "YOU'RE BAD - WE"RE GONNA BAN YOU!" maybe there could be a "Someone was offended a bit by something you posted, we know you didn't intend that, so could we talk about that? How can you make your point in a way that doesn't offend and that encourages conversation rather than cut it off?" No, I'm not nieve to think that will always work. But I think the change in 'tude would be helpful, and I DO think it would work SOME of the time. CF is the only place where all adjudication is done SECRETIVELY and without the accused even been aware he is under trial, much less able to speak at such. (We do allow that in the appeals process, but he/she is unable to read the original Report).

Again, I LIKE mixing up the teams. It is good to get a balance. Not only to hopefully prevent bias but also to give perspective. I WANT the Team to know what the Lutheran perspective here is, so that I don't get misunderstood. I WANT knowledgable Catholic to be on the Team so that the Catholic perspective is represented and understood.


I'll be blunt here: If people want a "wall of protection" around their denomination and those that belong to it, where discussion with others is not permitted, then why don't they go to a denominational website? IF I wanted to "protect" my Lutheran thoughts and not allow such to be "challenged" then I'd go to one of the many Lutheran websites. They exist for every denomination and perspective. IMHO, that's NOT what CF is for and never has been.


IMHO, a big part of the "problem" at CF is that it has never been clearly understood what we are here for. Erwin had a very clear, focused vision and when the site was small and he was actively involved, it worked and grew to become the most popular Christian website in the world. It was ecumenical, embracing, welcoming, and "rules" were kept to a minimun. We were here to learn and share and grow. But, it seems to me, as he "bowed out," others filled the void. And they often did not have that "agenda." For them, this was about apologetics or defending from the attacks of others - and soon the "war" was on. As far as I can tell, there is no vision or focus or purpose now. It's smaller, lots feel pretty "beat up" and quieter now. The lid is kept screwed on pretty tight - making any meaningful discussion pretty hard to do. IF CF is just going to be a "hi, ain't Jesus cool - and so are you!" website, then I think it is destined to continue to decline. I like this site. I like the people - a lot. I like that it strives for that balance of permitting opinions and lively/real discussion but with respect. After firmly leaving (not altogether of my own free will), I actually RETURNED to here. I want it to work. I think it can. I pray it does.






.

 

[Nadiine]

To CJ --

all I see at this stage are skeleton crews on both sides & the same
names fighting back & forth over moral sin.
One essentially doesn't believe anything is sin outside the obvious
(murder, rape, kidnapping & keeping minorites from voting lol)

One says it is sin. Now what?

But you said this:

Again, I LIKE mixing up the teams

Which teams? Jehovah Witnesses? Mormons? Buddhists?
The issue becomes the definition of what CF is declaring
a Christian is. Becuz if you claim you're one, THEN YOU ARE ONE.

So you have people claiming Christian Buddhism is great,
sexual immorality is actual morality condoned by God...
the bible is full of error & not all of it is God's truth, etc. etc.

All a site like that is doing is promoting confusion & chaos
along w/ fighting.
Outsiders like the lost stop by & see WWIII w/ "Christian" against
"Christian" & figure "they can't agree on ANYTHING - how can they
tell me anything when they can't even figure it out"???

What help is that to the lost? I don't look at this site for strictly
"debate" purposes; unless there's clarity in what a Christian is,
all there is is confusion & infighting.

That's how I see this after being here this long thru all the wars.
& if this works on other sites (ecumenism), I'd like to see what's going
on there. & possibly it's in the early stages of coming around to
the fighting that will errupt later as sides are formed.
I think it's the ultimate fruition of the 2 together.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

To CJ --

all I see at this stage are skeleton crews on both sides & the same
names fighting back & forth over moral sin.
One essentially doesn't believe anything is sin outside the obvious
(murder, rape, kidnapping & keeping minorites from voting lol)

One says it is sin. Now what?

I wonder if both sides shouldn't be allowed to state their view: respectfully?

But you said this:

Which teams? Jehovah Witnesses? Mormons? Buddhists?
The issue becomes the definition of what CF is declaring
a Christian is. Becuz if you claim you're one, THEN YOU ARE ONE.

.

... in my day, the Nicene Creed was used to define "Christian" - will some "flex" on a couple of the issues there. I thought that was good. Why it was dropped for the "whatever you say" definition, I don't know. I was "away" from CF for nearly 2 years.

What help is that to the lost? I don't look at this site for strictly
"debate" purposes, unless there's clarity in what a Christian is,
all there is is confusion & infighting.

... a valid point, and I AM sensitive to it.

Once upon a time (LOL), CF existed for us to DISCUSS those disagreements - openly, honestly and respectfully. Rules tried to empower BOTH the openly and the respectfully parts of that. Staff were seen as counselors and facilitators. Of course, this is now. What I DO think is that Staff is just as good as then. We have good people on staff here (I know a lot of them). I think CF has just lost it's way a bit. I don't claim "balance" is ever easy, and I admit that discussions CAN get "messy." I think understanding is wroth the mess.

IMHO (and I respect those that disagree), I don't want CF to be a "Jesus is cool - and so are you!" site. They already exist. And you MAY be right that they give the nonchristian a better "view" of Christianity (I would question that, BTW). But I"m not a big fan of "Mr. Roger-ism" or relativism. I'm not a big supporter of sweeping everything under the rug while singing "Kumbyha" together. And again, those sites exist. A LOT of them. IF that's what is desired, I'd just invite people to go there.

That's how I see this after being here this long thru all the wars.

.... I too have the scars.

Some of them from "friendly fire"






.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Subscribing

 

[Nadiine]

I wonder if both sides shouldn't be allowed to state their view: respectfully?

they have -- ad nauseum.

The problem is, it's continued for so long that it became
the war that it did. For every time one says homosexuality
is fine, the other says it's sin.
K............ now what? (300 posts later - 10 threads later.....) etc.

It's just become chronic. It all starts out less heated, the
tension grows over time.

... in my day, the Nicene Creed was used to define "Christian" - will some "flex" on a couple of the issues there. I thought that was good. Why it was dropped for the "whatever you say" definition, I don't know. I was "away" from CF for nearly 2 years.

Yes, and in a way it's probly a good thing for you.
I'll just note this, the ones who haven't left, are dog tired
of the same stuff for the 2 yrs you haven't been going
thru it.
So their perception & emotions aren't as laid back as yours
will be with a fresh attitude after this long. I hope you get my meaning - so please try to have some understanding in some
who have gotten fried out from the trenches. LOL

... a valid point, and I AM sensitive to it.

Once upon a time (LOL), CF existed for us to DISCUSS those disagreements - openly, honestly and respectfully. Rules tried to empower BOTH the openly and the respectfully parts of that. Staff were seen as counselors and facilitators. Of course, this is now. What I DO think is that Staff is just as good as then. We have good people on staff here (I know a lot of them). I think CF has just lost it's way a bit. I don't claim "balance" is ever easy, and I admit that discussions CAN get "messy." I think understanding is wroth the mess.

K, let me share this to what I emphasised in purple

We're way PAST "understanding" now. We understand what they claim & why they claim it (both sides).
WE FLATLY DISAGREE & call it false teaching (on both sides).

IMHO (and I respect those that disagree), I don't want CF to be a "Jesus is cool - and so are you!" site. They already exist. And you MAY be right that they give the nonchristian a better "view" of Christianity (I would question that, BTW). But I"m not a big fan of "Mr. Roger-ism" or relativism. I'm not a big supporter of sweeping everything under the rug while singing "Kumbyha" together. And again, those sites exist. A LOT of them. IF that's what is desired, I'd just invite people to go there.

As I see it, there's plenty of disagreement within the Christian scope. On social/political & spiritual topics.
I'm not for silencing anyone - I am for clarity on what a Christian actually is on a site claiming to be a Christian forum.

Otherwise, as I mentioned earlier, all the lost see are "Christians" fighting over EVERYTHING. And I mean everything. Morality, bible authenticity/authority/inerrancy, doctrinal issues, politics & whatever else.
All they see is complete disunity & don't know WHO to listen to.
Who could blame them?

.... I too have the scars.

I remember well CJ -
unfortunely, it's just continued for some of us to this day.

 

[desmalia]

I just wish I could stay signed in for more than .5 seconds without having to use a very unreliable proxy server! grrrrrr

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

they have -- ad nauseum.

The problem is, it's continued for so long that it became
the war that it did. For every time one says homosexuality
is fine, the other says it's sin.
K............ now what? (300 posts later - 10 threads later.....) etc.

It's just become chronic. It all starts out less heated, the
tension grows over time.



Yes, and in a way it's probly a good thing for you.
I'll just note this, the ones who haven't left, are dog tired
of the same stuff for the 2 yrs you haven't been going
thru it.
So their perception & emotions aren't as laid back as yours
will be with a fresh attitude after this long. I hope you get my meaning - so please try to have some understanding in some
who have gotten fried out from the trenches. LOL







K, let me share this to what I emphasised in purple

We're way PAST "understanding" now. We understand what they claim & why they claim it (both sides).
WE FLATLY DISAGREE & call it false teaching (on both sides).


As I see it, there's plenty of disagreement within the Christian scope. On social/political & spiritual topics.
I'm not for silencing anyone - I am for clarity on what a Christian actually is on a site claiming to be a Christian forum.

Otherwise, as I mentioned earlier, all the lost see are "Christians" fighting over EVERYTHING. And I mean everything. Morality, bible authenticity/authority/inerrancy, doctrinal issues, politics & whatever else.
All they see is complete disunity & don't know WHO to listen to.
Who could blame them?



I remember well CJ -
unfortunely, it's just continued for some of us to this day.

.... heard. Felt.




.
.

 

[Nadiine]

I just wish I could stay signed in for more than .5 seconds without having to use a very unreliable proxy server! grrrrrr

this must be contagious, I just got cut off & lost my post



Somehow they need to find that glitch - I wonder if others have the
same problem?

 

[desmalia]

this must be contagious, I just got cut off & lost my post

<img src=\"http://img.christianforums.com/images/smilies/onion/dead.gif\" border=\"0\" alt=\"\" title=\"dead\" smilieid=\"119\" class=\"inlineimg\" />

Somehow they need to find that glitch - I wonder if others have the
same problem?

Yes, there\'s at least a handful of us, probably a lot more. For some it\'s intermittent, but for some like me, it\'s constant and never improves.

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, there\'s at least a handful of us, probably a lot more. For some it\'s intermittent, but for some like me, it\'s constant and never improves.

gosh, maybe that's where everyone went



I feel for you Des - I wish I could fix it.

 

[CyberPaladin]

I have been having the same problem I get booted every couple of minutes.

 

[Nadiine]

I have been having the same problem I get booted every couple of minutes.

I'm sure if certain people are being kicked off then they have
something in common since it isn't happening to everyone.

I wonder what it is?

 

[desmalia]

I\'m sure if certain people are being kicked off then they have
something in common since it isn\'t happening to everyone.

I wonder what it is?

I think so too. As far as I can tell, it may be related to IP addresses being banned. My ISP sends out a generic IP, so I suspect that if someone else in my general area has been banned, it may be affecting my connection. Not sure, but that seems the most likely thing since I can stay logged in through the proxy server with no problem. I would be very interested to know how many people are having these problems since there doesn\'t seem to be one place for all of us to report in about it. GM is working hard looking into this, which is MUCH appreciated.

 

[PETE_]

Just as in the world in general, there are many churches out there presenting all sorts of different messages. The lost can stumble into any one of them or hear them on tv/radio. We are not going to be able to shut them down or prevent them from declaring what is Christian. We have a similar thing going on here.

We are told to spread the gospel. Thankfully we are not judged by God on how well we present it, only the willingness to do it. No amount of truth posted on this board will change someones heart if God has not touched it first.

I think we all need to quit trying to win the battle, speak the truth with Christian love, and let God do what He wills from there. You never know, He may have it in mind to use CF to convert some of those presenting that false gospel that would never step foot in one of our churches.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Don't forget people getting reported, counseled, and their posts deletd or edited for flaming for simply saying something is a sin when the Bible itself says it's a sin....and now a humanist, buddhist, or person from another faithgroup can mod my posts? And it's not supposed to be a reason to be concerned?

Let me be frank here...

We've had protestants modding in OBOB and TAW for months...and with very few complaints, and those not because of the doctrinal differences, but because they didn't agree with the interpretation of CF Rules.

This is still a CO area with a CO staff...so a humanist or buddhist modding posts in this area has a chance...of...say 0

As for the rest...wow...way left field...

Thanks for the insults and lack of faith y'all...lemme just say it's appreciated.

From the Site's Preamble:

Preamble
This site has the goal of facilitating discussions between various Christian faiths as determined by adherence to Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. Those of you who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.

 

[Nadiine]

Just as in the world in general, there are many churches out there presenting all sorts of different messages. The lost can stumble into any one of them or hear them on tv/radio. We are not going to be able to shut them down or prevent them from declaring what is Christian. We have a similar thing going on here.

We are told to spread the gospel. Thankfully we are not judged by God on how well we present it, only the willingness to do it. No amount of truth posted on this board will change someones heart if God has not touched it first.

I think we all need to quit trying to win the battle, speak the truth with Christian love, and let God do what He wills from there. You never know, He may have it in mind to use CF to convert some of those presenting that false gospel that would never step foot in one of our churches.

Hi PETE
To what I bolded there, yes - but we've had people reported & warned
while trying to do just that in refuting false teachings.
& yes I have seen some use the bible hatefully & as personal slams,
I'm not talking about those which should be moderated.

As far as anything else, yes God can use anything good or bad to
reach someone. But that doesn't change the stagnant back & forth
stage the Theology area has gotten into with the few that are left.
The frustration & tension just builds - then people start blowing up &
reports start, then they get warnings & complain & eventually leave.

Someone should write a manual on this stuff lol
A 12 step plan to keep you from blowout.

My solution for now is just play my FPS vid games I got at
Christmas

 

[Nadiine]

Let me be frank here...

We've had protestants modding in OBOB and TAW for months...and with very few complaints, and those not because of the doctrinal differences, but because they didn't agree with the interpretation of CF Rules.

This is still a CO area with a CO staff...so a humanist or buddhist modding posts in this area has a chance...of...say 0

As for the rest...wow...way left field...

Thanks for the insults and lack of faith y'all...lemme just say it's appreciated.

From the Site's Preamble: