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Why not?seekingpurity047 said:I guess people who begin genocides and never repent of it are in heaven right?
Hmm...
To the glory of God,
Randy
Don't forget, the vast majority of Jews exterminated by Hitler were not Christians, and thus God will punish them just as he will punish Hitler.quarter21 said:Does not God love the jews whom hitler murdered? Would not God see justice done on hitler?
Matthew 7:21-23 The Message Bible said:"Knowing the correct password--saying "Master, Master,' for instance--isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience--doing what my Father wills. I can see it now--at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, "Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? "You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'
So you think that God is an intellectual who condemns people for what is in their head rather than what is in their hearts?Flicker said:Don't forget, the vast majority of Jews exterminated by Hitler were not Christians, and thus God will punish them just as he will punish Hitler.
Matthew 7:23 The Message Bible said:"You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'
(BTW, the Message translation of the Bible is by far my favorite. It does a much better job of capturing the subtle nuances of the languages that are being translated from. For example, I had a debate with an atheist who asserted that Jesus was racist because he called a Greek Syrian woman a dog in Mark and Matthew. All translations on Biblegateway.com said dog except the Message, which accurately translated it as “whelping puppy”.)
quarter21 said:People don't go to hell because they aren't Christians or simply because they don't know Jesus... that would be a cruel God. People go to hell because they lie, steal, murder, hate (hatred in the bible even is considered murder in God's eye, matt 5, 1 Jn 3:15,.... if you don't agree, who raises the bar of what is right and what is wrong), ext. What good judge would not feel angry if his children committed murder, and not do what is right in sending them to jail. Yet what judge deep down would also not feel remorse, and sadness as well as grief, because his children committed wrong, and are now rotting away in jail?
People go to hell because that is just punishment. Look into a newspaper.. if it says that someone recieved a fine of 50 dollars you can assume the crime was small. If the person recieved life sentence, you can tell the person has done something wrong. Well america seems to judge what is right and what is wrong. Yet if you see in revelations 21:8... all liars will have their part in lake of fire..... meaning a lie is actually really serious though we treat it as if nothing. Perhaps you say a lie is not that bad. Some crazy murderers think what they have done is not that bad.... yet we are the ones that set the standard.
Jesus is like the lawyer that can work on our defense. Other religions can't because many work on works to get to heaven.... almost like someone that committed drug pushing that states "yes judge, but I gave money to the poor".
Christianity is true because it provides the most logical way to know God and realize how Holy He is.
If I murdered your family (only an example), and I mentioned to the judge that I am sincerely sorry.... and he let me off the hook... how would you feel for a judge with such lack of justice? would you be able to welcome me as your friend? My family owned a hair salon.. my mom was not happy comming into her very first own business ever and finding shampoo stolen which comes out of her pocket.. she didn't realize people were going to treat her that way. And that was something small.
If God is holy and just.. He will punish the people like hitler, people that have murdered innocent children, rapists, but where do we draw the line? What about people that sell drugs to little children? Yes of course that is wrong. If you think it is only wrong as each person views it.. .would you want someone doing all described above to your loved ones and to you? Where does the line stop... God is not going to stop at the drug dealers, but also thieves, adulterers, and liars.
This leaves everyone out? yes, Bible says we have all sinned. Most religions can attest to that. Yet we can't bribe God, as mentioned above. Punishment must take place, and Jesus took it for us. As if He took the bullet for us.
People go to hell because they do wrong, not because they dont know Jesus.. just like someone goes to jail becaue they do wrong not because they don't have a good lawyer.
Was hell created by a tripped out man? Does that make sense again? Using my past example... like a judge that would send hitler to jail for life... is that judge tripped out for creating a punishment system for hitler? Or is the person stating this question not believe in a loving God? Does not God love the jews whom hitler murdered? Would not God see justice done on hitler?
Does anyone have a problem with my analogies?
He certainly claimed too. He once even said, “I have come to finish the work that Christ started.” So according to you, Hitler is in Heaven.Lynn73 said:If Hitler had trusted Christ as Savior on his deathbed, he would've gone to heaven.
I quoted scripture in this regard. You ignore and contradict the verse in Matthew that says that one must do the Father wills, God’s bidding, which is to love selflessly.Lynn73 said:mike1reynolds, selfless love, keeping the commandments, and the golden rule do not get us into heaven. That isn't Scriptural.
Then what is the distinction that Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:21-23 where some people who profess to be Christian will be accepted by the Lord and others will not? Clearly grace and profession of faith are insufficient if one is egotistical and conceited about one’s faith.Lynn73 said:The shed blood of Christ gets us into heaven. There isn't any amount of good works or being good that will entitle you to one minute of heaven. It's a gift we receive by faith in Jesus Christ. There's only one way to heaven and that is through the Door, Jesus Christ. You can keep the golden rule, be selfessly loving and still go to hell.
mike1reynolds said:He certainly claimed too. He once even said, “I have come to finish the work that Christ started.” So according to you, Hitler is in Heaven.
I quoted scripture in this regard. You ignore and contradict the verse in Matthew that says that one must do the Father wills, God’s bidding, which is to love selflessly.
Then what is the distinction that Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:21-23 where some people who profess to be Christian will be accepted by the Lord and others will not? Clearly grace and profession of faith are insufficient if one is egotistical and conceited about one’s faith.
I ignore no such thing, but I dont give it an interpretation like it was idol worship sacrifice. Jesus died to save the world from certain destruction. His sacrifice balanced the collective bad works of humans that would have resulted in automatic destruction of the Earth.Lynn73 said:That's not all that's in the Father's will but it doesn't change that you ignore Scripture that clearly show that only through Christ is anyone saved. You ignore the gospel which is Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the third day.
And He will only save those who have worked at being like Him, which is selfless and loving.Lynn73 said:No one will be saved by loving if they ignore God's provision which is Christ who said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him.
You side stepped the who question with the word really. So who is really a Christian and who is not? How do you have any notion of Gods criteria for who is real and who isnt in this regard if you reject the only criteria that He gave, which is to work at being and thinking like His selfless and loving way of being and thinking?Lynn73 said:The distinction is that not everyone who professes to be Christians really are. Their actions will show that they are real. The Lord will tell some of these people that he NEVER knew them. They weren't really His no matter what they professed or what they did in His name. He knows who really belongs to Him and who doesn't.
mike1reynolds said:To say that you are automatically saved simply by holding an intellectual belief is contradicted by Matthew 7:23.
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mike1reynolds said:I ignore no such thing, but I don’t give it an interpretation like it was idol worship sacrifice. Jesus died to save the world from certain destruction. His sacrifice balanced the collective bad works of humans that would have resulted in automatic destruction of the Earth.
And He will only save those who have worked at being like Him, which is selfless and loving.
You side stepped the who question with the word really. So who is really a Christian and who is not? How do you have any notion of God’s criteria for who is real and who isn’t in this regard if you reject the only criteria that He gave, which is to work at being and thinking like His selfless and loving way of being and thinking?
mike1reynolds said:To say that you are automatically saved simply by holding an intellectual belief is contradicted by Matthew 7:23.
mike1reynolds said:In idol worship, one propitiates a god and supposedly receives benefit by this propitiation alone, without having to do anything else.
If being born-again is not a belief system, then what is it?BarbB said:It's not an intellectual belief to be born-again. Without Jesus, it's impossible to be born again. Without being born-again, you are not saved.
He was a tangible example of how we should try to be. God can’t teach by example in this regard, we had to have a living breathing flesh and blood example.BarbB said:You seem to be espousing a Christianity of works - love and you will be saved. But where's Jesus?
You act as though I have not described atonement for our sins. The sins of intolerance and conceit are alive and well today just as they were then, and that is what Jesus died for.Lynn73 said:What in the word are you talking about? Truly the "gospel" you seen to be promoting is foreign to me and what I see in the Bible. Jesus didn't die to save the world from destruction, he died to save us from our sins. His sacrifice had nothing to do with balancing collective bad works to avoid earthly destruction. It had everything to do with atoning for our sins before a Holy God.
You can only construe my statements as unbiblical by altering them. Intellectuals make these kinds of straw man arguments all the time, it is a very intellectual process.Lynn73 said:Sorry, it sounds good but that's not what the Bible says. He saves those who truly believe in Him and trust His atoning sacfrifice for their sins. Like it or not, friend, this is what the Bible says.
Far better than you. Your statement here is just an insult. You self-righteously assume that anyone who differs with you is an ignorant fool. That is how arrogant intellectuals feel too.Lynn73 said:There are plenty of people who, no doubt, work at being like Him and who are loving but won't see heaven because they never trust Him as Savior. Do you know what the gospel is?
To believe in Jesus is to practice what he taught, which is selfless love. All of your intellectual machinations cant change that simple and obvious fact.Lynn73 said:I side step nothing. The Bible makes it clear what one must do to be a Christian and it's all about the gospel of Jesus Christ, not what you're promoting. Selfless loving, as wonderful as that is, doesn't make anyone a Christian. When the Philippian jailor asked what he must do to be saved, the answer came back that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not that you must selflessly love. You aren't, imho, promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ and the true plan of salvation is revealed in Scripture.
I agree that True belief is embracing Gods selfless love, which is a feeling and not a thought. But you are full of thoughts, not selfless compassion. How are your beliefs anything more than intellectual concepts?Lynn73 said:Who said anything about intillectual belief saving? Mental assent doesn't save. True belief does, however, which is a lot more than just intellecutal belief.
You have turned the spiritual path on its head, intellectual beliefs flow from what is in ones heart, not the other way around. True belief as you put it comes from an experience, from feeling the presence of God and His peace and love. You cant get too this simply by paying lip service and adopting a belief system.Lynn73 said:All the other things such as works, love, becoming more like Christ flows from being saved, they aren't the means of getting saved.
You seem angry to me. And your opinions do not come across as humble, they come across as extremely judgmental. That is why evangelicals have such a bad rap with the majority of Christians who are turned off by this.Lynn73 said:In my humble opinion, you should carefully reread the New Testament and see if you're really promoting the true gospel. Check out Galatians 1:6-9. That is serious. Frankly, I'm concerned.
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