Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

[Splayd]

What implications? It's a logic question, not a theological debate.
I think we can agree that it's not religious bigotry to state a religious truth. If it has in fact been twisted or isn't true then bigotry might be found there, but if in fact the opinion you disagree with is actually truth - it's not bigotry.
I'd suggest that your reasoning about this religious "bigotry" is circular. From what I can see it goes like this:
A) I don't think it's true. (Go to B)
B) If it's not true then it must be bigotry. (Go to C)
C) If it's bigotry it mustn't be true because God isn't a bigot. (Go to B)

 

[mike1reynolds]

I already answered your questions repeatedly and yet still you twist them dishonestly. Look, the statement is true and not bigoted. But the implicatons may or may not be bigoted. The implications are either (1) all non-Christians go to Hell or (2) only some do. The statement is not innately bigoted. Implication 1 is, implication 2 is not.

 

[mike1reynolds]

It's a logic question, not a theological debate.

Do you assume that theology is not logical? Perhaps that is the source of the problem. You should try applying logic to theology. If you don't then you are no better than an atheist. They think that logic doesn't apply to the subject either.

 

[Splayd]

OK then let me reword my question to directly address the "implications".

If implication 1 is actually true, is it bigotry?

I'll concede that it is if it's false, but if it's true - it's simply true. Again I point to my last post. Your conclusion that it is bigotry can only be reached if it is already established to be false. As the conclusion is dependant on the outcome it can't be used as evidence to reach that outcome. That would be circular reasoning.

Considering the majority of us in this thread haven't already reached the conclusion that implication 1 is false, the conclusions that might follow aren't viable arguments to help us reach that conclusion. First you need to establish that "your truth" is truth before we can recognise your conclusion.

 

[mike1reynolds]

You are turning the subject on its head. If it is true then God is a bigot. God is not a bigot so it can't be true. There is no way to prevent it from being bigotry, all it can do is drag your concept of God down with it into a false god. If it is true then your god is a demon and not the true God.

 

[Splayd]

Do you assume that theology is not logical?

No - I agree that theology is logical.

My statement was saying that my question was ONLY ogical, there was no loaded theology in it.
My question could just as well have been: Is it bigotry to say that monkeys eat bananas... if it's true?
I was questioning your logical understanding of bigotry and truth, not the theology.

 

[mike1reynolds]

How is saying that monkeys eat bananas a condemnation of monkeys?

 

[Splayd]

If it is true then God is a bigot.

OK - so if God shares a truth that you agree with - it's not bigotry, but rather it's calling a spade a spade.
BUT if God shares a truth that you don't agree with, God is a bigot.

ie: If it's true that pagans are wrong and you agree then God isn't a bigot... BUT if it's true that unbelievers aren't saved and you don't agree then God is a bigot.

Got ya! The only consistency here is that what you believe is more important than whatever the truth may or may not be.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Like an intellectual you have totally divorced your reasoning from the concrete issues, which are morality and whats in your heart vs. the immorality and hate induced by demonic religions, such as Islamic terrorism. Yet you say that morality and whats in your heart doesn't count, all that counts is what name you propitiate, what label you give to the propitiated being. That is what the devil would like you to believe because he can get you to worship him even as you say God's name. That is how Islam operates.

Just because you say God doesn't mean that you are worshiping God. In Mt. 7:21-23 they call on Jesus all the time and yet they never worshiped Jesus, they worshiped demons. Demons of pride and self-importance. Your labels for God are meaningless if your heart is not open to Him, in which case you are worshiping demons even as you say God's name.

 

[Splayd]

No mike - I haven't addressed any of my biblical beliefs in this brief discourse. All I've limited my discussion to is whether it's reasonable to use "bigotry" as an argument even before we've established whether something is or isn't God's truth.

I'd surmise that until you've established your actual argument it isn't; and until we can get away from using "bigotry" as the means to reach your conclusion there's little point even considering the rest.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Condemning a moral person is bigotry. There is no way around it. You have to create intellectual abstractions divorced from reality in order to justify yourself. You cannot morally justify your view.

 

[mike1reynolds]

You assert that God can condemn a moral person and make this condemnation of morality somehow moral. If you condemn a moral person it is bigotry. There is no way around it. You have to create intellectual abstractions divorced from reality in order to justify yourself. You cannot morally justify your view. You have to make appeals to moral relativism, which is always a justification for immorality.

It is one thing to say that God is hard to fathom, but quite something else to say that He has taken something inherently immoral and made it moral. This is moral relativism. God is not relative, He is Absolute.

Your argument is akin to the atheist’s argument about how God can’t create an immovable object and an unstoppable object. You have replaced the immovable object and unstoppable object with bigotry and justice. Then you take the reverse tack, asserting that God can turn bigotry and immorality into morality and justice. You assert that God can condemn a moral person and make this condemnation of morality somehow moral. This is no different in character from the atheist’s argument. They are two sides of the same coin.

It is just intellectual machinations, like the Greek sophists that Paul riles against who know nothing of morality. Their “worldly wisdom” is intellectual abstractions with no moral content. Ultimately God has nothing to do with any of your arguments. You are only arguing sophist abstractions. If you stick strictly to morality then your argument unravels. GOD DEMANDS MORALITY. GOD'S MORALITY IS NOT RELATIVE.

 

[Splayd]

OK - you win!
Your perspective and reasoning are flawless. God always intended that the key would be to disregard everything He says and go with your personal perspective of morality no matter how inconsistent it is.
He's no bigot, but rather He deliberately misleads us by telling us things clearly in His word, defining them as He goes when the whole time He actually wants those that are faithful enough to study what He says to not believe Him and dig around for isolated verses that determine that He is subject to our own sense of morality.
I don't know why I didn't see it before.
Mike - you won't acknowledge sound doctrine, context, a weight of biblical evidence or logic. You're covering your ears and yelling "la la la - my personal moral perspective is bigger than God Himself so I don't even care what you've got to say." There's clearly no point trying to work through any of it with you.

I apologise for wasting your time and mine and wish you all the best.

 

[Lynn73]

Splayd, you've said it beautifully. It seems we're casting pearls here and getting nowhere.

 

[Lynn73]

You are turning the subject on its head. If it is true then God is a bigot. God is not a bigot so it can't be true. There is no way to prevent it from being bigotry, all it can do is drag your concept of God down with it into a false god. If it is true then your god is a demon and not the true God.

Wow, so you're calling the God of the Bible a demon? After all, He's made it real clear in His word that those who believe are saved and those who don't will be condemned. You don't like this, so God is a demon.

 

[Lynn73]

You assert that God can condemn a moral person and make this condemnation of morality somehow moral.[/quote]

God's made it clear how to be saved. Morality isn't it so He's perfectly just in condemning those who reject His provision for salvation. Your theology is unbiblical, deeply twisted around, and you'll be held accountable for people that you sway away from the truth. This is very serious business.

 

[mike1reynolds]

God always intended that the key would be to disregard everything He says and go with your personal perspective of morality no matter how inconsistent it is.

That is a far cry from going with your own personal immorality and claiming that God has declared it moral, while you willfully ignore scripture to justify yourself.

He's no bigot, but rather He deliberately misleads us by telling us things clearly in His word

You mean like: Matthew 7:21-23, 1 John 4:6-8, Romans 2:14-16, Luke 12:47-48, Romans 1:19 and Jeremiah 17:10? You accuse me of ignoring scripture, which I have never done. I’ve addressed ever scripture presented to me, but you can’t address any of these. You can’t explain away God’s word and just flatly pronounce that God agrees with you, that 75% of Christondom is wrong. Especially when your opinion is immoral.

defining them as He goes when the whole time He actually wants those that are faithful enough to study what He says to not believe Him and dig around for isolated verses that determine that He is subject to our own sense of morality.

Ah yes, now I’m an atheist. You can’t justify your immorality, so all you can do is insult.

Mike - you won't acknowledge sound doctrine, context, a weight of biblical evidence or logic.

Saying that God makes your immorality moral is hardly logic.

You're covering your ears and yelling "la la la - my personal moral perspective is bigger than God Himself

Such hypocrisy! You distort God’s words to suite your own desires. You just want to be self-important and pat yourself on the back about how superior you are to perfectly moral people.

The Civil War was fought because preachers all over the South preached from the pulpit that blacks don’t have souls using precisely the same reasoning as you do. Twisting God’s word and saying that God makes immorality moral.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Wow, so you're calling the God of the Bible a demon?

No, I am saying that you have twisted God's word into something it is not to justify immoraliy. That would indicate the presence of a demon.

 

[mike1reynolds]

God's made it clear how to be saved. Morality isn't it

That is an excellent excuse for immorality!

 

[mike1reynolds]

Wow, so you're calling the God of the Bible a demon? After all, He's made it real clear in His word that those who believe are saved and those who don't will be condemned. You don't like this, so God is a demon. You're more twisted than I realized.

After giving it some thought, I decided to report this. I'm pretty thick skinned and I can take as much as I dish out, but this is way over the line. Who knows, maybe they'll lock the thread, but I think that the moderators will remember this too.