Do demons exist?

[Michie]

Do demons exist? Of course. Accepting that, we infer that angels exist, too.

Continued below.
Do Demons Exist?

 

[Larry Yoder]

They most certainly do! Ever feel unsettled, anxious, just not in sync; ask the Lord to send Angels to drive the demons away, suddenly you will feel anew! Pray for a protective shield to keep all that is evil from you.

 

[Dave-W]

Is that even a question?

 

[joinfree]

Do demons exist? Of course. Accepting that, we infer that angels exist, too.

Continued below.
Do Demons Exist?

John:
- Trinity is Verity? Prove then the Trinity to Trinity.
Bob:
- He is automatically proven to exist. Existent things come from God of Theism. Latter is Absolute Good, so devils (and atheists and other unrepentant sinners) can not exist. Devils are problem and can murder, but they do not exist.
The war of Gods: idol of Atheists vs. God of Theists

 

[Michie]

Weird. Why not read the op?


From the article:
How do these matterless creatures exist? Well there is direct and massive evidence of Scripture, but that testimony is not likely to be accepted by people not of The Book. There have also throughout history have been many (let us call them) sightings and interactions. These are dismissed as being the product of overwrought minds or are called mistakes or frauds. These charges are not always false.

Since these primary sources are in dispute, can we deduce the existence of demons in other ways? I think so. Here is an outline if that argument originated by St. Thomas understanding that a full treatment would require a book


We start with the premise that our intellects and wills are not material. They are not made of stuff...

 

[Michie]

I hope the above excerpts help. Actually reading the op would help even more.

 

[joinfree]

I hope the above excerpts help. Actually reading the op would help even more.

Thanks. But my contribution to the field is this: angels are made of virtual matter, look the theory of virtual matter: Is it true that the scientists discovered parallel worlds, and who lives in them?

 

[Michie]

But this is the Catholic forum and posted from a Catholic source. The subject is discussing St. Thomas' pov. But I'll check out your link out of curiosity.

Thanks. But my contribution to the field is this: angels are made of virtual matter, look the theory of virtual matter: Is it true that the scientists discovered parallel worlds, and who lives in them?

 

[joinfree]

But this is the Catholic forum and posted from a Catholic source. The subject is discussing St. Thomas' pov. But I'll check out your link out of curiosity.

Let me quote this source, to my memory: "I have no idea how Spirits interact with material world, or from what staff they are made. But they surely interact and they do exist."

 

[Michie]

And? Any thoughts? Getting ready to check out your link now.

Let me quote this source, to my memory: "I have no idea how Spirits interact with material world, or from what staff they are made. But they surely interact and they do exist."

 

[Michie]

Thanks. But my contribution to the field is this: angels are made of virtual matter, look the theory of virtual matter: Is it true that the scientists discovered parallel worlds, and who lives in them?

Well I could barely make heads or tails out if that. But as I said, I posted from a Catholic source in the Catholic forum about the thoughts of St. Thomas. Not really connecting here.

 

[joinfree]

Well I could barely make heads or tails out if that. But as I said, I posted from a Catholic source in the Catholic forum about the thoughts of St. Thomas. Not really connecting here.

Just trust me as a blind human trusts his dog: angels are made of virtual matter, and they move things via Freewill.

 

[Monna]

William Briggs' arguments do not convince me in the slightest. They are certainly not proofs of the existence or nature of angels and demons.

 

[Michie]

Smh.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Thanks. But my contribution to the field is this: angels are made of virtual matter, look the theory of virtual matter: Is it true that the scientists discovered parallel worlds, and who lives in them?

Angels are immaterial. That means that they aren't made of any matter of any sort.

For some reason moderns think that "immaterial" means "made of matter, but a really weird type of matter." You see the same sort of reaction when people claim that we should be weigh the soul, and when being told that of course we can't since it's immaterial and only material things have weight, you get the answer "I know it's weigh a really small amount, but we still should be able to weigh it."

It's also similar to how in response to the claim that it is impossible for anything to arise out of nothing, you sometimes get responses like "but scientists have observed things in vaccums." Vacuums aren't nothing, they are a thing. Even if you define them as "a space with no matter in it" they would still be a space which is a thing. Nothing means nothing, just as immaterial means no matter.

 

[MoonlessNight]

William Briggs' arguments do not convince me in the slightest. They are certainly not proofs of the existence or nature of angels and demons.

This might give you a tipoff as to the background of this article:

We also discovered in Summa Contra Gentiles, and elsewhere, that angels and demons learn all at once, in a flash, as it were.

This is referring to his ongoing series on Aquina's Summa Contra Gentiles which goes through much of the material in far greater detail than this one article. What is presented here is a summary. Of the things which are summarized, nothing would be controversial to someone following along with the series (as readers to WM Briggs's site would be) or to a faithful Catholic (as members of OBOB presumably are). Since this was a link to WM Briggs's site which appears in OBOB, it's not unreasonable to suppose that the audience would primarily consist of people from those groups.

You are like a person who barges into the last day of course on Quantum Mechanics and shouts "none of what you said today proves that there are quarks in the first place!"

 

[MoonlessNight]

As for the actual article, I was surprised at this line, since I know that Briggs is quite familiar with A-T metaphysics:

Somehow our spiritual natures interact with our physical selves. How? I haven’t the slightest idea.

It is hard to see how immaterial things could have an efficient cause on things. This creates mysteries for modern philosophy, since efficient causation is all they have. Either you get people like Descartes and his followers who believe in the immaterial but cannot explain how it interacts with the material, or the materialists who don't believe in the material and so in one way solve the "interaction problem" but have the problem of dealing with things which are clearly immaterial (like our conscious experiences).

In the metaphysics of Aquinas and Aristotle on the other hand, we have three more causes: material, formal and final. While immaterial things obviously can't properly have material causes on material things (a material cause of a thing simply being the matter it is made out of), they can have easily interact with them through formal and final causes. For example, the soul is the formal cause of the living body.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

I saw a movie once called "Angels and Demons" so YES they do!!!!

 

[joinfree]

I saw a movie once called "Angels and Demons" so YES they do!!!!

Does Pope allow own Catholics watch the romans of David Brown? Isn't he being called "heretic"?

 

[joinfree]

Angels are immaterial. That means that they aren't made of any matter of any sort.

For some reason moderns think that "immaterial" means "made of matter, but a really weird type of matter." You see the same sort of reaction when people claim that we should be weigh the soul, and when being told that of course we can't since it's immaterial and only material things have weight, you get the answer "I know it's weigh a really small amount, but we still should be able to weigh it."

It's also similar to how in response to the claim that it is impossible for anything to arise out of nothing, you sometimes get responses like "but scientists have observed things in vaccums." Vacuums aren't nothing, they are a thing. Even if you define them as "a space with no matter in it" they would still be a space which is a thing. Nothing means nothing, just as immaterial means no matter.

The faith is faithfulness to KNOWLEDGE, so the Church Dogmas are scientifically PROVEN KNOWLEDGE. Science is quest for knowledge, not a method. Knowledge of any human is the knowledge, which has his God. Any human has God in his heart, atheists have idol of atheism in their hearts. Who is making atheists say "there is no god"? Science proof? No
The war of Gods: idol of Atheists vs. God of Theists

The knowledge of Eastern Orthodox Church is: 1) God has miraculously made World from Absolute Nothing. 2) angels are not Holy Spirit. Therefore, they are not the "Absolute Immaterial Beings". Angels are not omnipresent, so they take the observable forms.