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Do Church of Christ Believe....
- Thread starter jesusfreak0791
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While I can speak only for myself, I will share with you what I believe about this particular topic. We are told what to do to please God in passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, and James 5:13. Acts 16:25 is an example of two Christians doing what these passages teach. Therefore, I believe those who have faith in God, sincerely desire to please Him, obey Him, and are continually thankful for the grace He extends to us won't have to be anxious over being rejected by Him and being condemned to hell.
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Many do believe that, but many don't. Depends on which congregation you attend and how conservative or progressive they are.
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crawfish
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I think there's a small, very vocal (and combative) minority who believe it, a larger group who would deny it and an even larger group who simply stays silent on it.
There is no overall "CofC" doctrine where all such things are spelled out. The more conservative/legalistic churches believe that and many other such absolutes. My CofC has an instrumental service.
There is no overall "CofC" doctrine where all such things are spelled out. The more conservative/legalistic churches believe that and many other such absolutes. My CofC has an instrumental service.
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Thanks you guys. This has been a really big question for me towards the COC. I've heard many things about the COC and was just wanting to get it cleared up.
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AJB4
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About 20% probably do think that those who use instruments go to hell, as they are the same figure who think that they're the only true Christians. With the RM forums here, I doubt that you'll find too much uniformity on various issues such as these. Generally, the RM agrees on church autonomy, believers baptism, and weekly communion. Beyond that, it's every man for himself.
To be honest, I think it's disgusting. Certainly not what Jesus intended (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:10).
To be honest, I think it's disgusting. Certainly not what Jesus intended (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:10).
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In my 20+ years of attending and preaching at various Churches of Christ... I've personally only come across 2 people that might suggest as much. 1 of them in the forums (whose never said so explicitely and may just be misunderstood by me) and the other is a "missionary" from the US who "planted" a church in our town, where there already is a CofC (but we use instruments ). Incidentally, he's been here for 10 years (I think) and his church peaked at 5 members (including him and his wife).
). Incidentally, he's been here for 10 years (I think) and his church peaked at 5 members (including him and his wife).
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AJB4
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LOL Splayd. Two thumbs up for you.In my 20+ years of attending and preaching at various Churches of Christ... I've personally only come across 2 people that might suggest as much. 1 of them in the forums (whose never said so explicitely and may just be misunderstood by me) and the other is a "missionary" from the US who "planted" a church in our town, where there already is a CofC (but we use instruments
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hugheschase9
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St least 20% of people think that but I don't. Who ever believes in god therefore should not go to Hell.
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OneInTheLordJC
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There have been many threads about this particular subject as it pertains to the Church of Christ. There have been good arguments on both sides. And the CoC is not the only church that doesn’t use instruments. But there was one answer on this thread that I felt was hateful to the more conservative belief.
About 20% probably do think that those who use instruments go to hell, as they are the same figure who think that they're the only true Christians.
Where did you come up with your statistic? It looks like you are making the assumption that there are only a few and that they are exclusive people. (By the way, all Christians are exclusive to a point. You have to be a follower of Christ to be a Christian, and that does cut some people out! J)
To be honest, I think it's disgusting. Certainly not what Jesus intended (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:10).
The division he was referring to was because there were “contentions” among members. People were coming to church mad at each other. Although, I do agree that a church body should have the same core beliefs, it is not what you believe that dictates what is right, but what the Bible says on the subject.
Forgive me if I was misled by your statements. I don’t think anything bad about you, I just read into anger for your fellow brothers and sisters, which I truly hope is not there. I just wanted to clear up some of the things that you said.
About 20% probably do think that those who use instruments go to hell, as they are the same figure who think that they're the only true Christians.
Where did you come up with your statistic? It looks like you are making the assumption that there are only a few and that they are exclusive people. (By the way, all Christians are exclusive to a point. You have to be a follower of Christ to be a Christian, and that does cut some people out! J)
To be honest, I think it's disgusting. Certainly not what Jesus intended (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:10).
The division he was referring to was because there were “contentions” among members. People were coming to church mad at each other. Although, I do agree that a church body should have the same core beliefs, it is not what you believe that dictates what is right, but what the Bible says on the subject.
Forgive me if I was misled by your statements. I don’t think anything bad about you, I just read into anger for your fellow brothers and sisters, which I truly hope is not there. I just wanted to clear up some of the things that you said.
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Yeah - I'm really not sure about AJ's stat's either or where they come from... BUT in fairness to AJ - there are some CofC's who actually believe they are the only Christians and it sounds like his own church is one of them. Ackowledging their beliefs isn't hateful and repeating them isn't causing division... the church is doing that on it's own.
As I relayed earlier - there is a very small church in my town that feels that way. They honestly teach that of the dozen (or so) churches in our town, they alone are the only true christians. The reason our church isn't christian: instruments. To suggest that the rest of us are the ones causing division is kinda silly.
To be honest - the real challenge for me was to recognise that this church's beliefs aren't indicative of all non-IM churches. As this was the only non-IM church I was aware of for some time, there was a natural tendency to assume all others were like that. I know better now - mostly through this forum. For someone like AJ, who attends a church like that, it would be an even bigger challenge... BUT recognising that "only 20%" are like that (however arbitary the figure) is certainly a start towards trying to make sense of it all, rather than anything malicious.
Peace
As I relayed earlier - there is a very small church in my town that feels that way. They honestly teach that of the dozen (or so) churches in our town, they alone are the only true christians. The reason our church isn't christian: instruments. To suggest that the rest of us are the ones causing division is kinda silly.
To be honest - the real challenge for me was to recognise that this church's beliefs aren't indicative of all non-IM churches. As this was the only non-IM church I was aware of for some time, there was a natural tendency to assume all others were like that. I know better now - mostly through this forum. For someone like AJ, who attends a church like that, it would be an even bigger challenge... BUT recognising that "only 20%" are like that (however arbitary the figure) is certainly a start towards trying to make sense of it all, rather than anything malicious.
Peace
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AJB4
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OneInTheLordJC said:
I didn't really come up with that statistic. It's what I've read elsewhere. It's just an estimate. Of course I'm not sure if it's a true statistic.
OneInTheLordJC said:
You may have noticed in my post that you quoted was that there was a wink. I would have thought that was an indication that it was a joke.
BTW, I am angry. I'm angry that I've been raised my entire life in a church that sincerely teaches that they are the only group of people on this earth who are saved, and I am angry over the inner distress this has caused me over the past year. I'm also angry that whenever I try and question it, they try and tell me that "I don't believe in God" or "I don't believe in scripture" or that "I'm denying the Lord". I'm hoping, however, that Jesus Christ is worth the struggle.
OneInTheLordJC, just out of curiosity, do you think that those using instruments in church will go to hell, and do you think that only those part of the non-instrumental CoC will be saved?
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OneInTheLordJC
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Sorry, this is long...
I am truly sorry for the way that your church behaves when you ask them legitimate questions about faith and doctrine. I don’t know what would prompt them to say such things when you ask them reasonable questions. Usually when people are in that type of discussion and they don’t have a sound argument for what they believe (meaning that they are only comfortable in what they were taught and to question that belief might shake the foundation of their whole perspective) they will make dramatic proclamations about things.
I don’t think that answering yes or no to the question you prompted me is going to be suffice in truly telling you what I believe. Sometimes you believe something so hard until you come across an exception to the rule or simply just a situation where your answer that you have held on to so dearly doesn’t seem to make sense anymore. I grew up in a conservative CoC where none of its members even questioned the lack of instruments. I just thought that we simply did not use them. It set us apart from Baptists or Methodists or Catholics in the area. I never thought it to be a salvation issue.
I, of course, went to a conservative CoC college (guess as you will) and my rebellion was to go to churches with instrumental worship. I mean, it can’t hurt, can it? Then I came across the argument against instrumental worship. There’s a certain website (by a primitive Baptist church if you can believe that) http://www.albatrus.org/english/church-order/worship/instrumental%20_music_in_nt_worship.htm.
It had very sound reasoning why instruments are not used in the worship service. I could go into the several different reasons, but you can read the website, it’s pretty well-written.
Do I think you are going to go to hell if you use instruments in worship? Is it right for me to dictate whether one person goes to heaven or another goes to hell? No. Do I think it’s wrong to use instruments in a worship service? Yes. I think that it’s risky to do something that is not what the apostolic church used. I have personally seen churches “go that route” and get lost on the wrong path. In my experiences, the issue isn’t just the instruments, but there was usually other thoughts and beliefs behind it as well.
Honestly, both sides need balance. Churches shouldn’t be crude when sharing beliefs, and people shouldn’t be assuming that the whole “20%” behave in the same fashion. Ultimately, what I believe plus a nickel is worth five cents. It’s what the Bible says that we should truly come together and understand. I hope you find a church that accepts you and loves you for the family that you are.
Peace.
I am truly sorry for the way that your church behaves when you ask them legitimate questions about faith and doctrine. I don’t know what would prompt them to say such things when you ask them reasonable questions. Usually when people are in that type of discussion and they don’t have a sound argument for what they believe (meaning that they are only comfortable in what they were taught and to question that belief might shake the foundation of their whole perspective) they will make dramatic proclamations about things.
I don’t think that answering yes or no to the question you prompted me is going to be suffice in truly telling you what I believe. Sometimes you believe something so hard until you come across an exception to the rule or simply just a situation where your answer that you have held on to so dearly doesn’t seem to make sense anymore. I grew up in a conservative CoC where none of its members even questioned the lack of instruments. I just thought that we simply did not use them. It set us apart from Baptists or Methodists or Catholics in the area. I never thought it to be a salvation issue.
I, of course, went to a conservative CoC college (guess as you will) and my rebellion was to go to churches with instrumental worship. I mean, it can’t hurt, can it? Then I came across the argument against instrumental worship. There’s a certain website (by a primitive Baptist church if you can believe that) http://www.albatrus.org/english/church-order/worship/instrumental%20_music_in_nt_worship.htm.
It had very sound reasoning why instruments are not used in the worship service. I could go into the several different reasons, but you can read the website, it’s pretty well-written.
Do I think you are going to go to hell if you use instruments in worship? Is it right for me to dictate whether one person goes to heaven or another goes to hell? No. Do I think it’s wrong to use instruments in a worship service? Yes. I think that it’s risky to do something that is not what the apostolic church used. I have personally seen churches “go that route” and get lost on the wrong path. In my experiences, the issue isn’t just the instruments, but there was usually other thoughts and beliefs behind it as well.
Honestly, both sides need balance. Churches shouldn’t be crude when sharing beliefs, and people shouldn’t be assuming that the whole “20%” behave in the same fashion. Ultimately, what I believe plus a nickel is worth five cents. It’s what the Bible says that we should truly come together and understand. I hope you find a church that accepts you and loves you for the family that you are.
Peace.
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Apollos1
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The RM was established upon the premise of Bible authority – having “Bible” for everything that you teach and practice in religion.
Simply put, “We shall speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent.” This was applied to the worship and work of the church.
In Matthew 28:18-20 it was recognized that Jesus Christ had been given ALL authority in ALL places (heaven and earth). That didn’t leave any for me or anyone else. What Jesus say – goes!
The matter of instrumental music involves the worship of the church. Outside of scripture we don’t know how to worship God, or even that He wants to be worshipped, unless God has revealed that to us in His word.
In the matter of the specific type of music God authorizes in scripture, I believe God has authorized vocal music only in worship - Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16.
If there are scriptures that some believe authorize mechanical music in worship, they should present those scriptures for consideration. But typically, no appeal is made to Bible authority for instrumental music to be used in worship… opinion and rationalization usually prevail. I can at least have some respect for those that offer scripture for what they practice, even if I disagree with them.
I don’t spend my time condemning people to Gehenna. God alone will be the Judge of all men - I don't intend to stick my nose into His end of business. But because I believe that instruments of music can not be authorized by scripture, I believe that using such puts their eternal soul at risk. Simply put, God never gave permission to use instruments!
In everything we teach and practice in religion, we are to have His authority – Colossians 3:17.
(Aside: When Noah entered the ark unto the saving of his house, I doubt the small number (8 people) made him want to stay out.)
Simply put, “We shall speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent.” This was applied to the worship and work of the church.
In Matthew 28:18-20 it was recognized that Jesus Christ had been given ALL authority in ALL places (heaven and earth). That didn’t leave any for me or anyone else. What Jesus say – goes!
The matter of instrumental music involves the worship of the church. Outside of scripture we don’t know how to worship God, or even that He wants to be worshipped, unless God has revealed that to us in His word.
In the matter of the specific type of music God authorizes in scripture, I believe God has authorized vocal music only in worship - Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16.
If there are scriptures that some believe authorize mechanical music in worship, they should present those scriptures for consideration. But typically, no appeal is made to Bible authority for instrumental music to be used in worship… opinion and rationalization usually prevail. I can at least have some respect for those that offer scripture for what they practice, even if I disagree with them.
I don’t spend my time condemning people to Gehenna. God alone will be the Judge of all men - I don't intend to stick my nose into His end of business. But because I believe that instruments of music can not be authorized by scripture, I believe that using such puts their eternal soul at risk. Simply put, God never gave permission to use instruments!
In everything we teach and practice in religion, we are to have His authority – Colossians 3:17.
(Aside: When Noah entered the ark unto the saving of his house, I doubt the small number (8 people) made him want to stay out.)
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crawfish
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Apollos1 -
I also don't see where the Bible authorizes church buildings. Or pews. Or crackers instead of bread. Or youth ministers. Or four-part harmonies.
At some point, you have to ask yourself, "if it was so important to God, then why didn't He make it more clear?"
The problems I see with instruments actually have nothing to do with instruments themselves. They can become a distraction, a way to focus on things other than the Gospel, a matter of pride, materialism, and many other such sinful things; but you don't need instruments to have those things anyway. I've seen many "doctrinally correct" CofC's who justify their own sins by looking down on what they perceive are the sins of others.
I also don't see where the Bible authorizes church buildings. Or pews. Or crackers instead of bread. Or youth ministers. Or four-part harmonies.
At some point, you have to ask yourself, "if it was so important to God, then why didn't He make it more clear?"
The problems I see with instruments actually have nothing to do with instruments themselves. They can become a distraction, a way to focus on things other than the Gospel, a matter of pride, materialism, and many other such sinful things; but you don't need instruments to have those things anyway. I've seen many "doctrinally correct" CofC's who justify their own sins by looking down on what they perceive are the sins of others.
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ParsonJefferson
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There is, of course, also very sound reasoning behind the use of instruments in worship.
It really comes down to the question of whether or not the silence of Scripture means something is prohibited.
The acappella brethren feel silence means it IS prohibited, while others of of us feel becomes a matter of discernment. We do hold to the Restoration Movement plea of "Where the Scripture speaks, we speak. Where the Scripture is silent, we are silent."
The favorite Scriptures cited - on both sides of the aisle - are not conclusive.
There are many things used for & during modern worship that the New Testament does not say we should use - nor direct us to use. Still, we use them. For instance, we are not explicitly told to use electronic sound systems, communion trays or cups, pews, hymnals, etc.
Personally, I have found that it comes down to a pointless argument that we waste far too much time on.
It really comes down to the question of whether or not the silence of Scripture means something is prohibited.
The acappella brethren feel silence means it IS prohibited, while others of of us feel becomes a matter of discernment. We do hold to the Restoration Movement plea of "Where the Scripture speaks, we speak. Where the Scripture is silent, we are silent."
The favorite Scriptures cited - on both sides of the aisle - are not conclusive.
There are many things used for & during modern worship that the New Testament does not say we should use - nor direct us to use. Still, we use them. For instance, we are not explicitly told to use electronic sound systems, communion trays or cups, pews, hymnals, etc.
Personally, I have found that it comes down to a pointless argument that we waste far too much time on.
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