Do Christians desire to replace God with Jesus?

Strong in Him

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Please quote a verse where Scripture says, "Jesus is God".

Jesus used God's name, claimed God's authority, e.g in forgiving sins, and did miraculous things to show God's power.

Just because some Jews erroneously claimed that does not make it so.

They tried to stone him twice for blasphemy, John 5:18; John 8:58-59. Then they crucified him for it, John 19:7.
They did more than claim it - they killed him for it.

The Jews were constantly misunderstanding Yeshua's words.

Like I said; they knew. That's why they were so upset and offended - if Jesus was God, they would have had to listen to him.
 
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Strong in Him

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The Son's exaltation from a lower position to a highly exalted position fulfills the type of the life of Joseph who went from a slave to second in command in Egypt. The life of Joseph is an uncanny parallel to the life of Yeshua.

There may be some similarities.
But Joseph was a much wanted child; born after his mother thought she couldn't have children, spoilt by his father, disliked by his jealous brothers, who sold him into slavery but didn't actually kill him. He was falsely accused of rape, thrown into prison and came to Pharaoh's attention for his gift of interpreting dreams. He was made Pharaoh's second in command, rescued all of Egypt, and his own family, from famine and was reunited with his father and brothers.

Jesus' birth wasn't planned; he was the eldest in the family, probably had to take over the trade when Joseph, his step father, died. Later he left it behind to travel as an itinerant preacher, because this was his ministry and calling from God. He was hated by some, praised and followed by others, arrested on false charges - even though the witnesses could not agree, given a false trial and then executed.

Personally I would say that Jesus' life was closer to that of Moses, than Joseph.
 
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gadar perets

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Jesus used God's name, claimed God's authority, e.g in forgiving sins, and did miraculous things to show God's power.
Please quote Scripture when you reply. Used God's name? Do you mean he spoke His name or used His name in referring to himself?

As for forgiving sins, anyone can forgive sins IF the Father gives him authority to do so.

Many others have also done miraculous things to show God's power (Moses, Elijah, Paul, Peter, etc.). BTW, Yeshua said he could do nothing. It was his Father working through him that did the miracles (John 5:19; John 5:30; John 8:28).

They tried to stone him twice for blasphemy, John 5:18; John 8:58-59. Then they crucified him for it, John 19:7.
John 19:7 says he made himself the "Son of God". That was a true statement and one of the reasons the Jews wanted him crucified.

In John 5:17-18, Yeshua declared God to be his Father. In other words, he was declaring himself to be the Son of God. The Jews erroneously took that to mean he was making himself equal to God. At no time in Scripture did Yeshua ever say he was equal to God. Just the opposite is true. Yeshua declared his Father was greater than he (John 10:29; John 13:16; John 14:28).

John 8:58-59 does not state why they sought to stone him. You can assume they thought he was making himself God or equal to God. I believe they stoned him because they couldn't take his words anymore.

The context of John 8 shows that Yeshua;

1) accused the Pharisees of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
10) accused them of not knowing YHWH (vs.55).
11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua’s words leading
them to believe;

1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Yeshua’s words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn’t restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him.
 
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gadar perets

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There may be some similarities.
But Joseph was a much wanted child; born after his mother thought she couldn't have children, spoilt by his father, disliked by his jealous brothers, who sold him into slavery but didn't actually kill him. He was falsely accused of rape, thrown into prison and came to Pharaoh's attention for his gift of interpreting dreams. He was made Pharaoh's second in command, rescued all of Egypt, and his own family, from famine and was reunited with his father and brothers.

Jesus' birth wasn't planned; he was the eldest in the family, probably had to take over the trade when Joseph, his step father, died. Later he left it behind to travel as an itinerant preacher, because this was his ministry and calling from God. He was hated by some, praised and followed by others, arrested on false charges - even though the witnesses could not agree, given a false trial and then executed.

Personally I would say that Jesus' life was closer to that of Moses, than Joseph.
I have a full study on all the parallels. If you are interested, PM for the URL.
 
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Strong in Him

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Please quote Scripture when you reply. Used God's name? Do you mean he spoke His name or used His name in referring to himself?

I mean that in Exodus 3:14 God revealed his name to Moses; "I am who I am".
Jesus used this name about himself often - I am the resurrection and the life, John 11:25; I am the true vine, John 15:1; I am the Way, the truth and the life, John 14:6. In the OT, God is described as a shepherd; Jesus said "I am the good shepherd, John 10:14.

As for forgiving sins, anyone can forgive sins IF the Father gives him authority to do so.

That's not what the Jews said in Mark 2:7 - "he's blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Many others have also done miraculous things to show God's power (Moses, Elijah, Paul, Peter, etc.).

Yes. God worked through them to do miracles to show that they were his prophets; his chosen.
And Jesus said, "the miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me," John 10:25.

The Jews sometimes had a discussion on this very subject. Some thought he was a sinner and a lunatic; others said "how could a sinner do these things?"
When Jesus opened the eyes of the man born blind, and the Jews asked the man about his healing he said, "we know God does not listen to sinners, he listens to the godly man who does his will" John 9:31. Later he said, "If this man were not from God, he could do nothing", John 9:33

Jesus was from God because he did miracles in God's name. If he had not been, or if he had said, or taught, anything that was false or of which God disapproved, he would not have been able to do any miracles.

BTW, Yeshua said he could do nothing. It was his Father working through him that did the miracles (John 5:19; John 5:30; John 8:28).

Jesus was both man and God. As a man, he could not do miracles in his own power. He said that his Father worked through him; the Father is God. There is only ONE God.

John 19:7 says he made himself the "Son of God". That was a true statement and one of the reasons the Jews wanted him crucified.

The Jews said that he claimed to be the Son of God, and that is why he had to die because such a claim was blasphemy - you have just disproved your own argument.

In John 5:17-18, Yeshua declared God to be his Father. In other words, he was declaring himself to be the Son of God. The Jews erroneously took that to mean he was making himself equal to God.

No, they knew that he was making himself equal with God.
John 5:18 - "not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God".

At no time in Scripture did Yeshua ever say he was equal to God. Just the opposite is true. Yeshua declared his Father was greater than he (John 10:29; John 13:16; John 14:28).

There is ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father has a different role to the Son, but he is not greater (as in superior or more powerful) because the Father and Son are One - Jesus said this.
But as I said, Jesus was ALSO 100% human. Paul says that he did not hold onto equality with God, but emptied himself, Philippians 2:6. Jesus was restricted as every other human is restricted - he had a human body, got tired, hungry, could not be in two places at once etc etc. In that respect, his Father, who was only God, WAS greater than him.

John 8:58-59 does not state why they sought to stone him. You can assume they thought he was making himself God or equal to God. I believe they stoned him because they couldn't take his words anymore.

You can assume that they couldn't take his words any more; that's not what the text says.

Jesus had said that if they listened to his words, they were really his disciples. Then they would know the truth and the truth would set them free, John 8:32.
The Jews replied that they were Abraham's descendants and had never been slaves of anyone, (obviously forgetting their time in Egypt), verse 33.
Jesus said that if they were really Abraham's children, they would do the things Abraham had done, and Abraham never tried to kill a man for telling things that he had heard from God, John 8:40. Later on he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad", John 8:56.
The Jews replied with scorn because he "was not yet 50 years old" and he'd claimed to have seen Abraham.
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM., John 8:58.
AT THIS the Jews picked up stones to kill him. The punishment for blasphemy was stoning - see verses already quoted.

The suggestion that they picked up stones because they'd had enough of his teaching, is not in the text. On other occasions, they just criticised him, rebuked him and walked away - why try to kill him immediately after he used God's name and claimed to have seen Abraham?

Yeshua’s words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn’t restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him.

Sorry but that is an assumption.

On another occasion in John 10, Jesus asked "I have shown you many miracles from the Father, for which of these do you stone me?" John 10:32.
The Jews replied, "we do not stone you for your miracles, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:33
The Jews tried to stone him for claiming to be God. Then they charged him with blasphemy and had the Romans kill him for this and for treason.

If Jesus had NOT been God, then it was ONLY a man who died on the cross; a man who had no authority to lay down his life for us, John 10:11, and whose blood could not have been shed for the forgiveness of sin, Matthew 26:28. If Jesus was ONLY a man, he had no authority to give eternal life - meaning that he lied when he said that he could give it and that he IS the life. If Jesus was ONLY a man, God would have not raised him from the dead, as Paul said that he was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection, Romans 1:4. The resurrection proved that everything Jesus said about himself was true.
So if Jesus was ONLY a man; there is no Gospel.
 
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gadar perets

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I mean that in Exodus 3:14 God revealed his name to Moses; "I am who I am".
Jesus used this name about himself often - I am the resurrection and the life, John 11:25; I am the true vine, John 15:1; I am the Way, the truth and the life, John 14:6. In the OT, God is described as a shepherd; Jesus said "I am the good shepherd, John 10:14.
Simply saying, "I am ..." does not make one the great I AM. The blind man in John 9:9 said, "I am" (ego eimi). Should we start worshiping him as the incarnation of the great I AM?

That's not what the Jews said in Mark 2:7 - "he's blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
This is one of several places where the Jews got it wrong. YHWH gave Yeshua ALL authority including the authority to forgive sins. If Yeshua was forgiving sins because he was God, then many men saw God. Yet, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that no man has ever seen God.

Jesus was from God because he did miracles in God's name. If he had not been, or if he had said, or taught, anything that was false or of which God disapproved, he would not have been able to do any miracles.
I agree. I never said Yeshua wasn't from God. He is the Son of God, yet you want me to believe he was God Himself.

Jesus was both man and God. As a man, he could not do miracles in his own power. He said that his Father worked through him; the Father is God. There is only ONE God.
So if the Father is the only ONE God, but you say "Jesus was both man and God, then you have two Gods. The Scriptures teach monotheism.

The Jews said that he claimed to be the Son of God, and that is why he had to die because such a claim was blasphemy - you have just disproved your own argument.
Yes, one reason they put him to death was for saying he was "the Son of God." They did NOT put him to death because he said he "IS God". Big difference.

No, they knew that he was making himself equal with God.
John 5:18 - "not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God".
A false accusation.

There is ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father has a different role to the Son, but he is not greater (as in superior or more powerful) because the Father and Son are One - Jesus said this.
But as I said, Jesus was ALSO 100% human. Paul says that he did not hold onto equality with God, but emptied himself, Philippians 2:6. Jesus was restricted as every other human is restricted - he had a human body, got tired, hungry, could not be in two places at once etc etc. In that respect, his Father, who was only God, WAS greater than him.
Scripture does not tech that Yeshua was 100% human and 100% God. That is man made doctrine.
The version of Philippians 2:6 you referenced reads, "6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped". In other words, he was not equal to God.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM., John 8:58.
That is how trinitarian translators would like it to read. The text only says, "ego eimi", not "I AM" in all capitals.

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Exodus 3:14 reads,

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.

In Septuagint English it reads,

“And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.”

In KJV English it reads,

“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

In John 8:58, “I am” is “εγω ειμι” in Greek. As you can see, “εγω ειμι” in Exodus 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the “ὁ ὤν” or “the Being” or “the Existing One”.


If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great “I am” of Exodus 3:14, he would have said,

“Before Abraham was I am the Being” or “I am the Existing One”.

The suggestion that they picked up stones because they'd had enough of his teaching, is not in the text. On other occasions, they just criticised him, rebuked him and walked away - why try to kill him immediately after he used God's name and claimed to have seen Abraham?
So if they just criticized him on other occasions, why stone him in John 8? Because his use of ego eimi did NOT mean he was claiming to be the great I AM. It was other things that brought them to stone him.

On another occasion in John 10, Jesus asked "I have shown you many miracles from the Father, for which of these do you stone me?" John 10:32.
The Jews replied, "we do not stone you for your miracles, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:33
The Jews tried to stone him for claiming to be God. Then they charged him with blasphemy and had the Romans kill him for this and for treason.
This is another example of the Jews getting it wrong. That is why Yeshua had to correct them with his words in John 10:36 that he was not declaring himself to be God, but the "Son of God". You won't find anywhere in John 10 or anywhere in all of Scripture where Yeshua "claimed to be God". He ALWAYS claimed to be God's Son.

If Jesus had NOT been God, then it was ONLY a man who died on the cross; a man who had no authority to lay down his life for us, John 10:11, and whose blood could not have been shed for the forgiveness of sin, Matthew 26:28. If Jesus was ONLY a man, he had no authority to give eternal life - meaning that he lied when he said that he could give it and that he IS the life. If Jesus was ONLY a man, God would have not raised him from the dead, as Paul said that he was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection, Romans 1:4. The resurrection proved that everything Jesus said about himself was true.
So if Jesus was ONLY a man; there is no Gospel.
First, a man can die, but God cannot. God has inherent immortality. He cannot possibly die. Second, all authority was given to the man, Messiah Yeshua. That authority was not GIVEN to a God who supposedly already had that authority. It was given to him by the "only true God" (Yeshua's Father YHWH). Third, the only requirements to be a sacrifice for sin was 1) to be a male and 2) to be unblemished (sinless). Yeshua met both requirements wheres no other human did. So his sinless blood was efficacious enough to cleanse us from all sin. Fourth, he could give us eternal life because his Father YHWH gave him life in himself just as the Father has (John 5:26). Yeshua did not always have such life. It was given to him. Fifth, God will raise many men from the dead. They do not have to be Gods in order for God to raise them up. Sixth, the Gospel in a single verse is;

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Gospel IS NOT;

For God so loved the world, that He gave Himself, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Yeshua was a sinless, flesh and blood man who now mediates between other men and God,

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua;​

Even now, as he sits as our mediator, he is a "man". We do not have a God mediating between man and God.
 
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radhead

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The Son's exaltation from a lower position to a highly exalted position fulfills the type of the life of Joseph who went from a slave to second in command in Egypt. The life of Joseph is an uncanny parallel to the life of Yeshua.

There is some truth to that, but very little. The truth is that Jesus never attained that worldly power and position that Joseph had attained. So it really bothers me when Christians seem to want to make Jesus into a magical demigod who possesses super worldly powers. During their "millennial reign" it seems as if it's something where they are looking forward to having nothing but worldly powers and magical protection.
 
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Dave-W

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...For example, to me it is pretty clear that "son of man" refers to someone of the lower working classes.
Actually, according to that phrase usage in Daniel, "Son of Man" refers to a divine being; while "Son of God" refers to an earthly King.

See Daniel Boyarin's book "The Jewish Gospels" for a further explanation.
 
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Dave-W

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gadar perets

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There is some truth to that, but very little. The truth is that Jesus never attained that worldly power and position that Joseph had attained.
As Yogi Berra once said, "It ain't over till its over". When Yeshua returns, he will yield his power over the world as second in command in the universe. He will also reveal himself to his brothers (the Jews) just as Joseph did to his brothers. Then all the Jews will be sorrowful for what they did to him and how they treated him all these years, but their sorrow will be turned to joy when Yeshua forgives them as Joseph forgave his brothers. It will be a glorious day!
 
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Strong in Him

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Simply saying, "I am ..." does not make one the great I AM. The blind man in John 9:9 said, "I am" (ego eimi). Should we start worshiping him as the incarnation of the great I AM?

No, but in Jesus' case, it was so. It is also clear from other texts that Jesus was claiming equality with God, and that the Jews knew this.

This is one of several places where the Jews got it wrong. YHWH gave Yeshua ALL authority including the authority to forgive sins. If Yeshua was forgiving sins because he was God, then many men saw God. Yet, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that no man has ever seen God.

No; the Bible describes Moses as a man who saw God face to face. Isaiah also said, "my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty", Isaiah 6:5.
Jesus was God, and was, and is, one with God. Even though they didn't know it then, everyone who saw Jesus, saw God.

I agree. I never said Yeshua wasn't from God. He is the Son of God, yet you want me to believe he was God Himself.

The Bible says he was God himself. As I said, the Jews believed he was God, which is why they accused him of blasphemy, tried to stone him and then crucified him.
Jesus said that he was one with the Father, that he shared God's glory before the world was created, John 17:5 and that he had come from heaven, John 3:13.
The apostle John says that Jesus is God - John 1:1-3, John 1:14.
The apostle Paul says that Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-17.
The author of the book of Hebrews says it - Hebrew 1:2-3.
The Nicean creed, which is accepted by mainline churches and this forum, says it.

So if the Father is the only ONE God, but you say "Jesus was both man and God, then you have two Gods. The Scriptures teach monotheism.

No, because Jesus said, "I and the Father are ONE". There is ONE God, three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Just as my brother is one man, but a father, husband and son. He does not have the same relationship with his children as he has with his wife; he'd be arrested. He does/did not have the same relationship with, and treat our parents in the same way that he treated his children, and did not do the same things for them - e.g tell them to do their homework, teach them to walk/speak/drive.
As a Father he does certain things/behaves in certain ways, as a husband he does different things and behaves in different ways, ditto as a son. Yet he is one man.

Yes, one reason they put him to death was for saying he was "the Son of God." They did NOT put him to death because he said he "IS God". Big difference.

No, in a previous verse that I quoted the Jews said,
"we are not stoning you for any of your miracles, but because you, a mere man, claim to be God".
Son of God is the same as God the Son.

A false accusation.

Which bit is false; the Scripture, which says that Jesus was making himself equal with God, or the fact that I am claiming that the Jews knew this?

Scripture does not tech that Yeshua was 100% human and 100% God. That is man made doctrine.

No, it's a Scriptural doctrine and was taught by the church.
The Apostles had to counter a number of heresies; one of which was that Jesus had not been God, or if he was, he only became divine at his baptism and "lost" his divinity before he was crucified. Another heresy was that Jesus WAS God, (which was correct) but that he had never become a human being, since the body/flesh/matter is corrupt. Both these heresies are still around today; the first is pedalled by the Jehovah's Witnesses, the second by Christian Scientists. Both of these groups are Christian cults and are accepted as such by the churches.

The version of Philippians 2:6 you referenced reads, "6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped". In other words, he was not equal to God.

No, in other words, he did not cling onto and fully use, or exploit, his divinity.

That is how trinitarian translators would like it to read. The text only says, "ego eimi", not "I AM" in all capitals.

But the problem for you is that the Trinity is a major Christian doctrine.
Defence of the Trinity is exactly one of the topics you would expect to find in "Christian Apologetics". The very rules of these forums say;
"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs."

So if they just criticized him on other occasions, why stone him in John 8? Because his use of ego eimi did NOT mean he was claiming to be the great I AM. It was other things that brought them to stone him.

Scripture does not say that it was other things that caused them to try to stone him; that is an interpretation.
In John 8, Jesus forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery, and the rest of the chapter is a discussion about his claims and who Jesus is. The Jews claimed to be children of Abraham, Jesus disputes this because they were not doing the things that Abraham did. He said that Abraham looked forward to his day, (the day when Jesus would come. Jesus' coming and ministry is foretold in the OT.)
The Jews stated that he was not even 50 and claimed he had seen Abraham, and Jesus replied, "before Abraham was born; I AM".
John then says "at this, they picked up stones to stone him", John 8:59. They didn't pick up stones at any other point; they didn't pick up stones to kill the woman who had been caught breaking the law, but threw them at Jesus instead.

This is another example of the Jews getting it wrong.

If they HAD got it wrong, they would not have wanted him killed for blasphemy - although they also charged him with treason, so that the Romans would crucify him.

You won't find anywhere in John 10 or anywhere in all of Scripture where Yeshua "claimed to be God". He ALWAYS claimed to be God's Son.

It is only WE, with our human thinking, that reckon that a son is a different person from, and inferior to, his father. Jesus is God the Son - on earth, he referred to himself as the Son of God, or, most often, Son of Man. Yet he and his disciples knew and taught that he was God. The Jews also believed that this was what he was saying - which is why they opposed and tried to kill him.
Jesus was a Jew. He knew the commandments; he knew there is only one God, yet he claimed equality with God.

First, a man can die, but God cannot. God has inherent immortality. He cannot possibly die.

I know. This is difficult/impossible to understand or explain. Yet just because we, with our finite minds, can't understand it; it doesn't mean it isn't so.
This is the Gospel - God created the world, mankind messed up, God sent Jesus to lay down his life as a perfect sacrifice for sin and reconciled mankind to himself.

Genesis says that God spoke and the world came into being, Genesis 1.
John says that Jesus is the Word of God and it was through him that all things were created, John 1:1-3.
Genesis says "let US make man on OUR image", Genesis 1:26-27, and the word used for God is plural.
John, Paul and the author of Hebrews says that Jesus was with God in the beginning; Jesus said that he shared God's glory before the world began.
And yet Jesus, who was God, was made flesh, John 1:14 and lived among us. not only that, he was the Good Shepherd who willingly laid down his life for the sheep, John 10:11.

The apostles and early church all taught that salvation, peace and reconciliation with God are only possible through Jesus.

That authority was not GIVEN to a God who supposedly already had that authority.

Jesus was ALSO a human being, God and human. This has been the teaching of the church throughout the ages; you reject that doctrine.

Fourth, he could give us eternal life because his Father YHWH gave him life in himself just as the Father has (John 5:26). Yeshua did not always have such life. It was given to him.

Jesus said, "I AM the life", John 14:6.

Fifth, God will raise many men from the dead. They do not have to be Gods in order for God to raise them up.

We will ALL be raised from the dead and meet with God, 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27. What happens after that depends on whether or not we have accepted Jesus. I don't know if God will actually ask the questions, "what did you think of my Son?" or "why should I let you into heaven?" But Scripture teaches, and Jesus made it quite clear, that if someone rejects the Son - and all he stood for and taught - then that person would not have eternal life, and what's more, that the Son would reject him when he stood before the Father.

Yeshua was a sinless, flesh and blood man who now mediates between other men and God,

God is the judge who condemned the world for its sin and said "the wages of sin is death", Romans 6:23, and then he stepped in and paid this price himself, "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
Jesus himself said that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, and that he was the Good Shepherd who - of his own accord - laid down his life for the sheep, John 10:17-18.

Jesus was not JUST a man, who had somehow managed to live a perfect life - which no one else had ever managed - and so God said "at last! He'll do; he can die for sin."
God knew what choice Adam would make in the garden, and had a plan to save us before we even knew we would need a Saviour. He told the serpent that one day he would be crushed by the woman's descendant, Genesis 3:15 - a prophecy that Jesus would defeat Satan on the cross. Peter also said that Jesus was "the Lamb chosen from the foundation of the world", 1 Peter 1:19-20.

Even now, as he sits as our mediator, he is a "man". We do not have a God mediating between man and God.

He is the perfect mediator between man and God; he always was God, took on human flesh, "became man" and is now with the Father as man and God.
Because of Jesus, God KNOWS what it is like to feel pain, disappointment, rejection, hardship, loneliness etc etc; not because he is omniscient and knows all things, but because he has experienced and felt them.
No one can ever say that God is aloof, sits apart from his creation and has no idea what we go through - he has been there, done that; in Jesus.
 
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As Yogi Berra once said, "It ain't over till its over". When Yeshua returns, he will yield his power over the world as second in command in the universe.

ALL the universe was created through him; he is not "second in command".

He will also reveal himself to his brothers (the Jews) just as Joseph did to his brothers.

That's an interpretation.

but their sorrow will be turned to joy when Yeshua forgives them as Joseph forgave his brothers. It will be a glorious day!

And that's not Scriptural.
Any Jew who receives Jesus as the Messiah, trusts in him and believes his words and teachings, will have eternal life - just like anybody else.
But there is no Scripture to suggest that the Jews can just carry on as they are and will all be forgiven one day anyway - even if they reject Jesus. There is also no Scripture which says that people have a second chance after death and will be saved then.
 
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Their imagery is one of the son of the king seated at the right hand of the king. In this case it is Jesus seated next to the Father. The natural conclusion is that Jesus will one day replace the Father in heaven.

Personally, I never felt any fear of God. Not until I first heard the dogma of evangelical Christianity. Before that my image was of a loving God.

Do Christians really desire to kill/remove/replace the image of God so much? Isn't it possible that their image of God is FALSE?

Why do they seem to want God to be removed from his position?

If you had a basic grasp on Christian theology you'd know why this question makes no sense.

Here's a link to the Nicene Creed:
Anglicans Online | The Nicene Creed

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ... No one has at anytime seen God, but the only-begotten, who is at the Father's bosom, has made Him known." -John 1:1,14,18

"This is what John is talking about at the beginning of his Gospel when he calls Jesus the Word of God made flesh. Jesus is God's Word, God's idea of God, how God understands himself. He is how-God-understands-himself become a part of our human history, become human, become the first really thoroughly human part of our history - and therefore, of course, the one hated, despised, and destroyed by the rest of us, who wouldn't mind being divine but are very frightened of being human.

In Jesus, says the Christian, we do not understand God but we can watch God understanding himself. God's understanding of God is that he throws himself away in love, that he keeps nothing back for himself.
" - Fr. Herbert McCabe, God Still Matters, p104

-CryptoLutheran
 
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gadar perets

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No; the Bible describes Moses as a man who saw God face to face. Isaiah also said, "my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty", Isaiah 6:5.
Jesus was God, and was, and is, one with God. Even though they didn't know it then, everyone who saw Jesus, saw God.
So what do you do with all the verses that say no man has seen God or no man can see God and live? Your interpretation of who/what Moses saw is wrong. As for Isaiah, he saw YHWH in a vision, not in person.

The apostle John says that Jesus is God - John 1:1-3, John 1:14.
Only if you read “Jesus” into the text of John 1:1-3.

The apostle Paul says that Jesus is God - Colossians 1:15-17.
Being “the image of the invisible God” and being God Himself are two totally different things. An “image” is not the reality. An image of an apple is not the apple.

The author of the book of Hebrews says it - Hebrew 1:2-3.
Same thing; an image is not the reality.

The Nicean creed, which is accepted by mainline churches and this forum, says it.
Since when is the Nicene Creed inspired text upon which to build doctrine?

No, because Jesus said, "I and the Father are ONE". There is ONE God, three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
John 10:30 does NOT mean they are “ONE God”. It means they are “one” in the same exact sense that believers are to be “one” with the Father and the Son (John 17:11,22). It is a oneness of purpose, not of being.

Just as my brother is one man, but a father, husband and son. He does not have the same relationship with his children as he has with his wife; he'd be arrested. He does/did not have the same relationship with, and treat our parents in the same way that he treated his children, and did not do the same things for them - e.g tell them to do their homework, teach them to walk/speak/drive.
As a Father he does certain things/behaves in certain ways, as a husband he does different things and behaves in different ways, ditto as a son. Yet he is one man.
Your brother is “one” man with three positions. Yet, he is only one person. You want God to be one God, but in three persons.

Son of God is the same as God the Son.
Wishful thinking.

But the problem for you is that the Trinity is a major Christian doctrine.
Defence of the Trinity is exactly one of the topics you would expect to find in "Christian Apologetics". The very rules of these forums say;
"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs."
“Christian Apologetics” is not a “Christians Only” forum.

Christian Apologetics
A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith.

Scripture does not say that it was other things that caused them to try to stone him; that is an interpretation.
In John 8, Jesus forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery, and the rest of the chapter is a discussion about his claims and who Jesus is. The Jews claimed to be children of Abraham, Jesus disputes this because they were not doing the things that Abraham did. He said that Abraham looked forward to his day, (the day when Jesus would come. Jesus' coming and ministry is foretold in the OT.)
The Jews stated that he was not even 50 and claimed he had seen Abraham, and Jesus replied, "before Abraham was born; I AM".
John then says "at this, they picked up stones to stone him", John 8:59. They didn't pick up stones at any other point; they didn't pick up stones to kill the woman who had been caught breaking the law, but threw them at Jesus instead.
“At this” is a questionable translation. Many other versions read, “Then”. You are also assuming the correct translation of verse 58 is, “before Abraham was born; I AM”. Of course, the unwarranted capitalization of “I AM” helps deceive people into thinking Yeshua was claiming to be the great “I AM” of Exodus 3.

So what does John 8:58 really mean? Although I do not believe we can be certain what Yeshua meant due to a variety of reasons, one being the absence of this passage as it appeared in John’s original writing, I offer the following explanation.
Let’s look at the context of Yeshua’s statement. It begins in verse 51 with the thought of eternal life; “If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” The Jews thought since Abraham and the prophets were dead, Yeshua must have a devil. The context is eternal life. Then in verse 56 Yeshua says Abraham “rejoiced to see my day.” He did not say he saw Abraham as the Jews misunderstood. How did Abraham see Yeshua’s day? Hebrews 11:13 says, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” He saw Yeshua’s day by faith.
Yeshua then resumed the context of his initial conversation by saying, “Before Abraham was, I am.” “Was” is from the Greek “ginomai” meaning, “to come into being, … to arise.” What Yeshua actually meant was, “Before Abraham comes into being (at his resurrection unto eternal life), I will.” Confirmation of this understanding comes to us from Figures of Speech Used in the Bible by E.W. Bullinger, pgs. 521,522. Under the heading “Heterosis (Of Tenses),” subheading “The Present for the Future,” he writes, “This is put when the design is to show that some thing will certainly come to pass, and is spoken of as though it were already present.” He then lists some examples such as Mt.3:10b, “therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is [shall be] hewn down;” and Mk.9:31a, “For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is [shall be] delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.” Included among this list of examples of Heterosis is John 8:58. In other words, although properly written, “Before Abraham comes to be, I am,” with “I am” in the simple present tense, the meaning points to the future, “Before Abraham comes to be, I will.”


gadar perets said:
First, a man can die, but God cannot. God has inherent immortality. He cannot possibly die.
I know. This is difficult/impossible to understand or explain. Yet just because we, with our finite minds, can't understand it; it doesn't mean it isn't so.
If that is your approach, then we can come up with any false doctrine and use that same line of reasoning.
 
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gadar perets

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ALL the universe was created through him; he is not "second in command".
Yes, “through him”, not “by him”. Even if you erroneously choose to believe he is not second in command, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 shows he will be in the future.

gadar perets said:
but their sorrow will be turned to joy when Yeshua forgives them as Joseph forgave his brothers. It will be a glorious day!

And that's not Scriptural.
Any Jew who receives Jesus as the Messiah, trusts in him and believes his words and teachings, will have eternal life - just like anybody else.
But there is no Scripture to suggest that the Jews can just carry on as they are and will all be forgiven one day anyway - even if they reject Jesus. There is also no Scripture which says that people have a second chance after death and will be saved then.

I never said they would remain as they are. After YHWH lifts their blindness, they will receive Yeshua as their Savior and be forgiven.
 
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So what do you do with all the verses that say no man has seen God or no man can see God and live? Your interpretation of who/what Moses saw is wrong. As for Isaiah, he saw YHWH in a vision, not in person.

Moses saw God's "back", yet there is Scripture which says that he and God spoke "face to face". That's fact.

Only if you read “Jesus” into the text of John 1:1-3.

I wasn't, that's why I also quoted John 1:14 - The Word became flesh.
John 1:1-3 AND 14 say that the Word was God, was with God and then became flesh. God became human.

Being “the image of the invisible God” and being God Himself are two totally different things. An “image” is not the reality. An image of an apple is not the apple.

The rest of that verse says "the first born over all creation." The next verse says, Colossians 1:16, says "for by him all things were created....... all things were created by him and for him."
So Colossians 1:15-16 speaks about someone who looks, and is, exactly like God, and was not only there when the universe was created, but was instrumental in its creation. These verses, and John 1:1-3 agree.

Since when is the Nicene Creed inspired text upon which to build doctrine?

The Nicene creed is Scriptural, and is recognised and accepted by Christian churches.
Go and read the Statement of faith of these forums - you'll find it under the link right at the top of the board which says "help and rules". The creed is stated, with Scriptural references for each phrase.

John 10:30 does NOT mean they are “ONE God”. It means they are “one” in the same exact sense that believers are to be “one” with the Father and the Son (John 17:11,22). It is a oneness of purpose, not of being.

Yet the Jews knew that Jesus was claiming to be God.
After the resurrection, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as God, and Jesus accepted worship from the disciples. The early church wrote of Jesus as God.

Your brother is “one” man with three positions. Yet, he is only one person. You want God to be one God, but in three persons.

He is - that's what Trinity means.
The Father is divine, The Son is divine and the Spirit is divine; yet there is ONE God.
“Christian Apologetics” is not a “Christians Only” forum.

Christian Apologetics
A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith.

This Christian Apologetics sub forum is in the Outreach section of the forum, which does allow non Christians to question the Christian faith, IF they read the Statement of purpose of the forum, and write a post in another thread to say that they have read, and agree to abide by, it.
One of the entries under this Statement of Purpose says;

"Blasphemy
In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible)."

Again, Christian Forum rules state that;
"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF"

“At this” is a questionable translation. Many other versions read, “Then”. You are also assuming the correct translation of verse 58 is, “before Abraham was born; I AM”. Of course, the unwarranted capitalization of “I AM” helps deceive people into thinking Yeshua was claiming to be the great “I AM” of Exodus 3.

So the Bible translators had an agenda; to DECEIVE people into thinking that Jesus is God?

So what does John 8:58 really mean? Although I do not believe we can be certain what Yeshua meant due to a variety of reasons, one being the absence of this passage as it appeared in John’s original writing, I offer the following explanation.
Let’s look at the context of Yeshua’s statement. It begins in verse 51 with the thought of eternal life; “If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” The Jews thought since Abraham and the prophets were dead, Yeshua must have a devil. The context is eternal life. Then in verse 56 Yeshua says Abraham “rejoiced to see my day.” He did not say he saw Abraham as the Jews misunderstood.

By their response, they understood exactly what Jesus was saying;
"You are not yet 50 years old, and yet you have seen Abraham", John 8:57
This lead Jesus to say, "Before Abraham was born, I AM", and THEN they picked up rocks to stone him. Why didn't he just correct their theology at that point?

If that is your approach, then we can come up with any false doctrine and use that same line of reasoning.

It's not my approach, it's true.

God is Almighty, eternal, infinite; his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts.
We are human, finite and mortal. Though we have been given minds, the ability to discover, question, reason etc, we cannot hope to understand, or work out, God. If we could, if we could store him away in a box under "things we have figured out", he wouldn't be God.
Paul says that we see "through a glass darkly" but that one day we will see "face to face". There are things, doctrines etc, that we don't, and can't, fully understand and figure out. The Trinity is one of these.

It's not a matter of saying "here's a doctrine we will pluck from nowhere and claim that everyone who questions it, doesn't have faith." Doctrines and statements of the Christian faith came into being because people studied the Scriptures and stated what they read there.
The Trinity is Christian doctrine.
The full deity of Jesus is doctrine.
People are at liberty to question and not believe them. But according to the rules of these forums, they cannot deny or rubbish them and claim to be Christian.
 
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gadar perets

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Moses saw God's "back", yet there is Scripture which says that he and God spoke "face to face". That's fact.
Jacob thought he saw God face to face (Genesis 32:30), but it turned out to be an angel (Hosea 12:4). YHWH spoke to all Israel face to face (Deuteronomy 5:4). At that time, they saw nothing but smoke and fire (Deuteronomy 4:12). When YHWH spoke with Moses face to face, all Moses saw was a pillar of cloud (Exodus 33:9). Moses did not see YHWH's back. He saw his fleeting glory after He was past much like we see the wake of a giant ship after it passes. If he actually saw a part of YHWH, then the following Scriptures make no sense (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12; 1 John 4:20). The "fact" is that no man has ever seen God.

I wasn't, that's why I also quoted John 1:14 - The Word became flesh.
John 1:1-3 AND 14 say that the Word was God, was with God and then became flesh. God became human.
The "word" became flesh. A thing (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts) became a human.

The rest of that verse says "the first born over all creation."
He is the first born over the new creation, not the old. If he was first born over the old, then you admit he had a beginning since anything "born" has a beginning.

The next verse says, Colossians 1:16, says "for by him all things were created....... all things were created by him and for him."
So Colossians 1:15-16 speaks about someone who looks, and is, exactly like God, and was not only there when the universe was created, but was instrumental in its creation. These verses, and John 1:1-3 agree.
Previously, you seemed to be quoting the NIV in various posts. Now you quote a different version. The NIV, which I don't use, but is correct in this verse, reads;

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.​

Yes, "image" means "someone who looks, and is, exactly like God", but is only "like" God, not that he "Is" God.

The Nicene creed is Scriptural, and is recognised and accepted by Christian churches.
Go and read the Statement of faith of these forums - you'll find it under the link right at the top of the board which says "help and rules". The creed is stated, with Scriptural references for each phrase.
I know full well what the creed is and says. It is NOT inspired or infallible.

Yet the Jews knew that Jesus was claiming to be God.
After the resurrection, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as God, and Jesus accepted worship from the disciples. The early church wrote of Jesus as God.
As long as you build your doctrines on English translations you will remain in error. The Greek does not teach that Thomas acknowledged "Jesus as God".

He is - that's what Trinity means.
The Father is divine, The Son is divine and the Spirit is divine; yet there is ONE God.
Your brother is one person. The trinity is supposedly three persons. Therefore, your comparison does not fit.

This Christian Apologetics sub forum is in the Outreach section of the forum, which does allow non Christians to question the Christian faith, IF they read the Statement of purpose of the forum, and write a post in another thread to say that they have read, and agree to abide by, it.
One of the entries under this Statement of Purpose says;

"Blasphemy
In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible)."

Again, Christian Forum rules state that;
"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF"
Why are you bringing all this up? To tell me I am not allowed to question the trinity doctrine? The rules state I can discuss it as long as I don't do it disrespectfully. Simply rejecting it and showing why Scripturally is not disrespecting it.

So the Bible translators had an agenda; to DECEIVE people into thinking that Jesus is God?
I do not believe they purposely tried to deceive people. That is simply the natural result of reading one's own beliefs into the text as they translated.

By their response, they understood exactly what Jesus was saying;
"You are not yet 50 years old, and yet you have seen Abraham", John 8:57
This lead Jesus to say, "Before Abraham was born, I AM", and THEN they picked up rocks to stone him. Why didn't he just correct their theology at that point?
The Jews erroneously thought Yeshua was saying he saw Abraham. Yeshua never said that. He said,

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. "
A child of three years old would not ever understand those words to mean Yeshua saw Abraham. "My day" does not mean "me". "Saw it" does not mean "saw me".

God is Almighty, eternal, infinite; his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts.
We are human, finite and mortal. Though we have been given minds, the ability to discover, question, reason etc, we cannot hope to understand, or work out, God. If we could, if we could store him away in a box under "things we have figured out", he wouldn't be God.
Paul says that we see "through a glass darkly" but that one day we will see "face to face". There are things, doctrines etc, that we don't, and can't, fully understand and figure out. The Trinity is one of these.

It's not a matter of saying "here's a doctrine we will pluck from nowhere and claim that everyone who questions it, doesn't have faith." Doctrines and statements of the Christian faith came into being because people studied the Scriptures and stated what they read there.
The Trinity is Christian doctrine.
The full deity of Jesus is doctrine.
People are at liberty to question and not believe them. But according to the rules of these forums, they cannot deny or rubbish them and claim to be Christian.
So, if the trinity is one of those things we cannot understand, why do Christians teach it as fact and disfellowship people who don't believe it. Why does CF call it blasphemy to talk disrespectfully about it if we can't even understand it? You say people studied the Scriptures and brought the trinity doctrine into being. I studied them as well and reject it.
 
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Hawkins

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Their imagery is one of the son of the king seated at the right hand of the king. In this case it is Jesus seated next to the Father. The natural conclusion is that Jesus will one day replace the Father in heaven.

Personally, I never felt any fear of God. Not until I first heard the dogma of evangelical Christianity. Before that my image was of a loving God.

Do Christians really desire to kill/remove/replace the image of God so much? Isn't it possible that their image of God is FALSE?

Why do they seem to want God to be removed from his position?

What makes you think that humans ever understand the anatomy of God. Christianity is about that we believe valid accounts of human witnessing about who He is, including the possibility that He's a Trinity.
 
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Why are you bringing all this up? To tell me I am not allowed to question the trinity doctrine? The rules state I can discuss it as long as I don't do it disrespectfully. Simply rejecting it and showing why Scripturally is not disrespecting it.

Of course you can question it, ask questions and doubt it.
I bring it up only to show that the Trinity is not something that I have decided upon from my own reading of Scripture or own ideas.
It is a doctrine of the Christian church; has been for many years.
One hallmark of cults is that they reject the Trinity. Take that up with all the churches, theologians and clergy if you like; that's how it is.
The rules of this forum state that if you reject this fundamental doctrine, you are considered, by this forum, to be a non Christian. Take it up with them if you like; that's how it is.

I do not believe they purposely tried to deceive people. That is simply the natural result of reading one's own beliefs into the text as they translated.

So you believe that the translators of Scripture had an agenda, and simply inserted their own beliefs into the passages they were translating?
I don't buy that.
1) I trust that they knew what they were doing, and I trust absolutely in the inspiration, and guidance, of the Holy Spirit.
2) If they deliberately mistranslated the Hebrew or Greek to make it suit their own beliefs, people would have realised that by now and branded their particular Scriptural translation as unreliable, or even false.
3) If you think some Scripture may be biased, unreliable or false, how can we trust any of it? And if the experts were wrong, why should I trust your interpretation of it? And why quote it to "prove" your point, if you think it's biased?

So, if the trinity is one of those things we cannot understand, why do Christians teach it as fact

If electricity is something we cannot see nor understand, why do people teach it as fact?
If I don't understand Newton's law of gravity, am I wrong to say that if you drop something, it will fall?
If I don't understand German, would it be wrong for me to go to Germany?

and disfellowship people who don't believe it.

I would hate to think that Christians disfellowshipped, rejected or ignored people who didn't understand or believe the Trinity. As no one can understand it, we'd all be disfellowshipping ourselves and each other. I expect there are Christian doctrines that people don't understand, but we can still have fellowship with, and love, them.

What I said was that as the Trinity's a major Christian, Scriptural doctrine, anyone who rejects it - not, doesn't understand it; rejects it - is considered to be unorthodox and possibly from a cult.
This is because the doctrine of the Trinity is that there is ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father is God - if not, then Jesus, Thomas and the apostles were wrong to call him God.
The Son is God - if not, then Jesus was ONLY human, would not have been perfect and would have died for his own sins, not ours.
The Spirit is God - if not, then the Scriptures that say that he is the Spirit of God, was present in the beginning and is eternal, are wrong.
Father, Son and Spirit are all divine.

Why does CF call it blasphemy to talk disrespectfully about it if we can't even understand it?

I'd say because the trinity, and Jesus' divinity, is at the heart of our faith.

The early church met with a number of false teachers who were leading new believers astray. One of these false teachings said that Jesus was God but was not a human being at all - as flesh was corrupt, he was a spirit in human form. Another one of these false teachings said that Jesus became God only when he was baptised and started his ministry, and lost his divinity just before he was crucified. Both these teachings are false and they taught against them.

You say people studied the Scriptures and brought the trinity doctrine into being.

No, I say that Scripture teaches the Trinity.
People may have coined the word Trinity, but the teaching is Scriptural.

I studied them as well and reject it.

You are at liberty to do so.
Just don't be surprised if Christianity, the church and orthodox faith all disagree with you.
 
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