Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

[mark kennedy]

I could answer, but I've yet another question to ask first: Is a soul ever justified if/when the Holy Spirit is not residing in it?

I dont know of any other way, but God is bigger then what I imagine. The New Testament is clear, you hear the gospel, believe, and you marked with the Holy Spirit of promise. If you have not the spirit you are none of his Romans 8:10.

 

[Thomas Bagley]

Yes, we do deny imputation.

 

[truefiction1]

And may the Grace and Peace of Christ be upon you.

That really meant the fullness of Christ.

Wouldn't you think that the meaning of your saying here is the same as being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ?

 

[truefiction1]

I dont know of any other way, but God is bigger then what I imagine. The New Testament is clear, you hear the gospel, believe, and you marked with the Holy Spirit of promise. If you have not the spirit you are none of his Romans 8:10.

Then it would seem that our problem is fully resolved and settled. Righteousness is made possible by the presence of the Holy Spirit within us, because the Holy Spirit fixes our sinfulness by His presently active power (otherwise known as grace). Without this grace, there is no salvation, because "it is by grace that we are saved, through faith (i.e. we receive the Holy Spirit through "hearing with faith"). Justification, therefor, is not due to an imputation. It is only by the real presence and power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us that we are justified, and this is through our "hearing (the Word) with faith".

That is why Orthodox Christians don't speak about salvation all that much using terms which seek to separate the Atoning work of the Word of God from the Saving work of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul used such language as he did because he was fighting the false doctrines of those who thought and taught that they were justified, or righteous, because they had been deceived into feeling that they were obedient to all the rules established by the Law of Moses. The same Apostle Paul, however, did not teach that there could be any separation between True faith (with works) in Christ and the restoration of God's Life in oneself by the Holy Spirit's power.

 

[redleghunter]

Wouldn't you think that the meaning of your saying here is the same as being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ?

Yes as the Holy Spirit testifies of Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

Then it would seem that our problem is fully resolved and settled. Righteousness is made possible by the presence of the Holy Spirit within us, because the Holy Spirit fixes our sinfulness by His presently active power (otherwise known as grace). Without this grace, there is no salvation, because "it is by grace that we are saved, through faith (i.e. we receive the Holy Spirit through "hearing with faith"). Justification, therefor, is not due to an imputation. It is only by the real presence and power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us that we are justified, and this is through our "hearing (the Word) with faith".

That is why Orthodox Christians don't speak about salvation all that much using terms which seek to separate the Atoning work of the Word of God from the Saving work of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul used such language as he did because he was fighting the false doctrines of those who thought and taught that they were justified, or righteous, because they had been deceived into feeling that they were obedient to all the rules established by the Law of Moses. The same Apostle Paul, however, did not teach that there could be any separation between True faith (with works) in Christ and the restoration of God's Life in oneself by the Holy Spirit's power.

This is quite a beautiful statement.

Only issue is St Paul spent a lot of “ink” on justification. And he tied and linked justification with the obedience and sacrifice of Christ.

 

[mark kennedy]

Then it would seem that our problem is fully resolved and settled. Righteousness is made possible by the presence of the Holy Spirit within us, because the Holy Spirit fixes our sinfulness by His presently active power (otherwise known as grace). Without this grace, there is no salvation, because "it is by grace that we are saved, through faith (i.e. we receive the Holy Spirit through "hearing with faith"). Justification, therefor, is not due to an imputation. It is only by the real presence and power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us that we are justified, and this is through our "hearing (the Word) with faith".

That is why Orthodox Christians don't speak about salvation all that much using terms which seek to separate the Atoning work of the Word of God from the Saving work of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul used such language as he did because he was fighting the false doctrines of those who thought and taught that they were justified, or righteous, because they had been deceived into feeling that they were obedient to all the rules established by the Law of Moses. The same Apostle Paul, however, did not teach that there could be any separation between True faith (with works) in Christ and the restoration of God's Life in oneself by the Holy Spirit's power.

Wow, that was an interesting perspective. Of course we cant recieve the righteousness of God apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The big question isnt imputed or infused, its how.

 

[truefiction1]

This is quite a beautiful statement.

Only issue is St Paul spent a lot of “ink” on justification. And he tied and linked justification with the obedience and sacrifice of Christ.

St. Paul used such imagery to show certain aspects of Salvation to his contemporaries who had been deceived into believing that by obeying a few of the "rules" taught within the covenant of Moses (Law), that they were righteous (self-righteousness/sinful pride). But the whole picture of Salvation remains beyond intellectual comprehension, because it involves the unfathomable, indescribable personal experience of all believers who come into Communion with God, in the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not "defined". It is not "explained". It is not a "forensic, scientific, mathematical formula". It is a deep mystery to be beheld by those who come face to face with the Living God, by grace. Paul's words convey metaphorical imagery that point to a Love, a Glory, so inexpressible that it leaves us without any words, but with only songs of praise bursting forth from joyous hearts, and with holy tears. This is by the revealing of Christ, Who shows us the Father, by the Holy Spirit. To become One with the Holy Trinity is salvation. It is Eternal Life, to know (Love) the only God, and Jesus Christ Whom He sent. There is far more to our salvation than can be told by discussing merely one aspect of the Atoning work of Christ, of which there are even yet more aspects revealed in Scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

St. Paul used such imagery to show certain aspects of Salvation to his contemporaries who had been deceived into believing that by obeying a few of the "rules" taught within the covenant of Moses (Law), that they were righteous (self-righteousness/sinful pride). But the whole picture of Salvation remains beyond intellectual comprehension, because it involves the unfathomable, indescribable personal experience of all believers who come into Communion with God, in the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not "defined". It is not "explained". It is not a "forensic, scientific, mathematical formula". It is a deep mystery to be beheld by those who come face to face with the Living God, by grace. Paul's words convey metaphorical imagery that point to a Love, a Glory, so inexpressible that it leaves us without any words, but with only songs of praise bursting forth from joyous hearts, and with holy tears. This is by the revealing of Christ, Who shows us the Father, by the Holy Spirit. To become One with the Holy Trinity is salvation. It is Eternal Life, to know (Love) the only God, and Jesus Christ Whom He sent. There is far more to our salvation than can be told by discussing merely one aspect of the Atoning work of Christ, of which there are even yet more aspects revealed in Scripture.

A wonderful and fitting Trinitarian devotion. I quite like it. However, the thread deals basically with the entry argument of how one becomes “in Christ.”

So this is not meant to refute or argue what you wrote as how you opine above would be in keeping with the Christus Victor theory of atonement. The consummation of all things in Christ as evidenced in Ephesians 1 and Colossians chapters 1 and 2. Not to mention demonstrated in His Second Coming depicted in Revelation chapters 19-22.

 

[truefiction1]

A wonderful and fitting Trinitarian devotion. I quite like it. However, the thread deals basically with the entry argument of how one becomes “in Christ.”

So this is not meant to refute or argue what you wrote as how you opine above would be in keeping with the Christus Victor theory of atonement. The consummation of all things in Christ as evidenced in Ephesians 1 and Colossians chapters 1 and 2. Not to mention demonstrated in His Second Coming depicted in Revelation chapters 19-22.

Well, in that case, one becomes "in Christ" through repentance, as made possible by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit (grace), Who has been poured out upon flesh, and by believing in Christ our God. Repentance, you know, basically means accepting one's heart to be changed, from evil to Godly. This "change of heart" is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, in cooperation of our own, grace assisted human will. No justification, righteousness of Christ, or whatever, can be said to exist where the changing of heart is either non-existent or has otherwise ceased, also in accordance with our own, grace assisted human will.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, in that case, one becomes "in Christ" through repentance, as made possible by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit (grace), Who has been poured out upon flesh, and by believing in Christ our God. Repentance, you know, basically means accepting one's heart to be changed, from evil to Godly. This "change of heart" is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, in cooperation of our own, grace assisted human will. No justification, righteousness of Christ, or whatever, can be said to exist where the changing of heart is either non-existent or has otherwise ceased, also in accordance with our own, grace assisted human will.

Well now we are getting into regeneration. Ephesians 2 is instructive we are dead in our trespasses before God makes us alive. Meaning our will is in bondage to sin and death and by God’s Grace we are made alive and slaves to Christ.

 

[truefiction1]

Well now we are getting into regeneration. Ephesians 2 is instructive we are dead in our trespasses before God makes us alive. Meaning our will is in bondage to sin and death and by God’s Grace we are made alive and slaves to Christ.

Which is an aspect, and really, the aim of Salvation, without which, Salvation ceases to be anything.

What are we saved from, if not from being forever separated from dynamic, Living, Eternal Communion with God? Continuous, never-ending Regeneration is Salvation, because it is the "Eternal Life" for which we have been created, yet lost through sin and the power of death. What... Do we suppose that regeneration will ever end, when it is growth in the knowledge of the Only True God, Who is infinitely unknowable?

 

[St. Helens]

MOD HAT ON

A few fires had to be put out due to
Flaming And Goading
Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.
NO Goading. This includes images, cartoons, smileys or post ratings which are clearly meant to goad. Quoting and then editing another members post to change the original meaning, commonly referred to as "fixed it for you" (FIFY), is considered goading.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[gordonhooker]

Let me ask you the question in a much more simple way.

Is this statement true or false?
1) It is just to punish an innocent man.

Is this statement true or false?
2) It is unjust to punish an innocent man.

Is each statement true, or false?

Let's see you come up with a way to evade answering these questions.

It has been fascinating watching the discussion it reminds me of question time in Australian Federal Parliament, where yes/no questions are so artfully dodged.

Personally my response to the above is:

Drum roll.......

1. False

2. True

After all that it doesn’t change the fact that:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
(John. 3:16 NRSV)
Accordance Link

 

[thecolorsblend]

Let me ask you the question in a much more simple way.

Is this statement true or false?
1) It is just to punish an innocent man.

Is this statement true or false?
2) It is unjust to punish an innocent man.

Is each statement true, or false?

Let's see you come up with a way to evade answering these questions.

You simplified the question more than I thought was possible. Why it's so difficult to write either "yes" or "no" is difficult to grasp.

Actually, it isn't. We both know why.

But as a general thing, this should be a no-brainer. Easy to answer.

And yet, so many posts have been written which attempt to frame the issue, change the subject, talk around the question or otherwise do everything except provide a simple "yes" or "no". Sad, really.

 

[Afra]

You simplified the question more than I thought was possible. Why it's so difficult to write either "yes" or "no" is difficult to grasp.

Actually, it isn't. We both know why.

But as a general thing, this should be a no-brainer. Easy to answer.

And yet, so many posts have been written which attempt to frame the issue, change the subject, talk around the question or otherwise do everything except provide a simple "yes" or "no". Sad, really.

Absolutely, and that is why we know that penal substitution is false.

 

[redleghunter]

Absolutely, and that is why we know that penal substitution is false.

Actually the previous assertions were refuted and not responded to in kind.

The wages of sin is death. That means the consequences of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin. Jesus died for our sins and as such paid the penalty...a death penalty. Paying a penalty is being punished.

Therefore, a just, righteous and innocent Christ who knew no sin died for sinners the unjust. The innocent for the guilty.

​

 

[Phil 1:21]

Isaiah 53:4-6
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

 

[Afra]

Isaiah 53:4-6
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Isaiah 53:4-6
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

I'm really not sure why people do this. They'll randomly post bits of scripture, add no commentary of their own and then click "Post Reply" as though they're dropping the mic. I guess maybe they think they're proving something... even though someone invariably replies asking what exactly they meant by that.

So.

What exactly did you mean by that?