Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

mark kennedy · Sep 22, 2018

truefiction1 said:
I think we are confused if we believe that there can be a separation between what is imputed and that which is infused. Abraham "believed" God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. Abraham's belief is not disconnected from his actions: His belief caused him to raise his hand to slay his ohnly son in obedience to the will of God. Abrahams faith was = to denying himself, taking up his cross and following Christ, even to his own death or the death of his only son. Abraham was righteous by the power of God's grace, which he had received through hearing with faith. To separate the "belief/faith" of Abraham from his actually having become righteous by grace, is to lie about the nature of Abraham's faith, and to lie about what salvation even is. Salvation is "being made righteous by grace (the Holy Spirit)", through the "hearing of faith"

There is no confusion of justification and sanctification. It's just that they are two sides of one coin, and where one side is lacking, the coin ceases to be valuable, and will be good for nothing but to be melted by fire.

I'm not confused, when Abraham heard the promise he laughed, when Sarah heard the promise she laughed. When Issac was born God chose the name which means 'she laughed'. God makes incredible promises, unbelievablee things we cannot concieve of. Can you imagine a city 1500 miles long, wide and high because I cant. I know, like Sarah the one who makes the promise is faithfull.

Rightiousness was credited to Abraham long before he was ready to sacrifice Isaac. As a matter of fact it was from before the foundation of the world.

The Most High is Soverign and rules in the affairs of men, especially when it comes to eternal life.

Afra · Sep 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Are you actually asking if it is just for an innocent man to suffer for a guilty man?

Your first Pope said yes.

1 Peter 3:

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

No, that is not what I asked you.

I asked you whether it is just to punish an innocent man. It can be answered with a simple yes or no. Let me give you my answer, for example: No, it is not just to punish an innocent man.

What is your answer?

truefiction1 · Sep 22, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I'm not confused, when Abraham heard the promise he laughed, when Sarah heard the promise she laughed. When Issac was born God chose the name which means 'she laughed'. God makes incredible promises, unbelievablee things we cannot concieve of. Can you imagine a city 1500 miles long, wide and high because I cant. I know, like Sarah the one who makes the promise is faithfull.

Rightiousness was credited to Abraham long before he was ready to sacrifice Isaac. As a matter of fact it was from before the foundation of the world.

The Most High is Soverign and rules in the affairs of men, especially when it comes to eternal life.

Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

redleghunter · Sep 22, 2018

Afra said:
No, that is not what I asked you.

I asked you whether it is just to punish an innocent man. It can be answered with a simple yes or no. Let me give you my answer, for example: No, it is not just to punish an innocent man.

What is your answer?

I answered the question with the Apostle Peter’s own words. The Just died for the unjust.

Yet we can continue. Did obedient and righteous Jesus Christ suffer and die for our sins?

Are we justified by the shed Blood of Christ and as such saved from the wrath of God through Him?

mark kennedy · Sep 22, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

The Scriptures are clear, he believed God and righteousness was credited to him. Now many years later he was tested but was only willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed God could raise him from the dead. It is the same hope, that God is the auther of life

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

Afra said:
Let me give you my answer, for example: No, it is not just to punish an innocent man.

I have to say being tortured, crucified and dying is not my idea of a couples weekend encounter. If Jesus was not punished during His flogging and crucifixion, even if one argues unjustly, then what exactly was it?

Perhaps inferred logic is no longer a prerequisite in Catholic prep school.

The wages of sin is death. That means the consequences of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin. Jesus died for our sins and as such paid the penalty...a death penalty. Paying a penalty is being punished.

Therefore, a just, righteous and innocent Christ who knew no sin died for sinners the unjust. The innocent for the guilty.

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

mark kennedy said:
The Scriptures are clear, he believed God and righteousness was credited to him. Now many years later he was tested but was only willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed God could raise him from the dead. It is the same hope, that God is the auther of life

And things have not changed. If we now believe in the promise of eternal life through the finished work of Jesus Christ we too will live like Abraham.

truefiction1 · Sep 23, 2018

mark kennedy said:
The Scriptures are clear, he believed God and righteousness was credited to him. Now many years later he was tested but was only willing to sacrifice Isaac because he believed God could raise him from the dead. It is the same hope, that God is the auther of life

The Scriptures are clear, indeed: Our father Abraham was justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. (James 2:21)

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

truefiction1 said:
The Scriptures are clear, indeed: Our father Abraham was justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. (James 2:21)

James 2:
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “ANDABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

truefiction1 · Sep 23, 2018

redleghunter said:
James 2:
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “ANDABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

And how do we account for Abraham's belief in God, which included his being justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar, and is not apart from this work of faith?

Afra · Sep 23, 2018

redleghunter said:
I answered the question with the Apostle Peter’s own words. The Just died for the unjust.

Yet we can continue. Did obedient and righteous Jesus Christ suffer and die for our sins?

Are we justified by the shed Blood of Christ and as such saved from the wrath of God through Him?

redleghunter said:
I have to say being tortured, crucified and dying is not my idea of a couples weekend encounter. If Jesus was not punished during His flogging and crucifixion, even if one argues unjustly, then what exactly was it?

Perhaps inferred logic is no longer a prerequisite in Catholic prep school.

The wages of sin is death. That means the consequences of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin. Jesus died for our sins and as such paid the penalty...a death penalty. Paying a penalty is being punished.

Therefore, a just, righteous and innocent Christ who knew no sin died for sinners the unjust. The innocent for the guilty.

Do you see how much you have to twist and evade giving a straightforward answer to a very simple question?

I did not ask you whether the just died for the unjust. I did not ask you whether our obedient and righteous Lord died for our sins. And I did not ask you whether our blessed Lord was punished. These are different questions than the question I asked you, and you are attempting to change the very clear and easy question I asked you into another question.

And you resort to making backhanded insults such as "Perhaps inferred logic is no longer a prerequisite in Catholic prep school".

Both you and I know why you will not and cannot answer the actual question that I asked you. Because you cannot answer it without refuting your theology.

If your theology leads you to a place where you cannot even give a clear and straightforward answer to a very simple question, which I have already answered myself, it gives everyone a valid reason to reject it.

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

truefiction1 said:
And how do we account for Abraham's belief in God, which included his being justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar, and is not apart from this work of faith?

Right here:

Ephesians 2:
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

Afra said:
Do you see how much you have to twist and evade giving a straightforward answer to a very simple question?

I presented the Biblical Gospel. Christ died for our sins taking upon himself what was due us.

9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

Afra said:
Both you and I know why you will not and cannot answer the actual question that I asked you. Because you cannot answer it without refuting your theology.

Look above again. I answered your question. Innocent just Jesus paid the penalty for the unjust.

You asked if it was just for an innocent man to be punished. I answered you by demonstrating that is what actually happened. There is no escaping the innocent Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins. By doing so an innocent man did indeed die for the unjust.

The death was the penalty due us all as the wages of sin is death. And by rising from the dead He conquered death so that we too may have life.

redleghunter · Sep 23, 2018

Afra said:
If your theology leads you to a place where you cannot even give a clear and straightforward answer to a very simple question, which I have already answered myself, it gives everyone a valid reason to reject it.

It was clear as a bell and everyone one of my statements came from Holy Scriptures. I did not quote the verses or passages given we are all adults on a Christian forum and know them.

But after church and following church activities today I will provide the Scriptures. Or better yet one could read the epistles themselves to seek the truth.

mark kennedy · Sep 23, 2018

truefiction1 said:
The Scriptures are clear, indeed: Our father Abraham was justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. (James 2:21)

Wh

truefiction1 said:
The Scriptures are clear, indeed: Our father Abraham was justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. (James 2:21)

I never argued against works of righteousness following saving faith, what do you suppose those works are? James is crystal clear in the context, as a matter of fact Paul is dealing with the exact same thing 1 Corinthians 11:21-22. James calls it the royal law, we are not likely to be called to make a human sacrifice. What James is talking about in James 2 are the fruits of righteousnrss. When Abraham first heard the promise he was young, when he was ready to sacrifice Isaac he was very old. He fulfill the promise of righteousness, after he laughed at the promise, begat Ishmael, and pleaded with God to make his servant his inheritance.

I say again, what are the works we are infused with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with. Sacraments or believing the word, James 1:18?

truefiction1 · Sep 23, 2018

redleghunter said:
Right here:

Ephesians 2:
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

"Grace" is the short answer I was looking for.
Now, what... is... grace?

mark kennedy · Sep 23, 2018

truefiction1 said:
"Grace" is the short answer I was looking for.
Now, what... is... grace?

Or better yet, how is that grace 'infused' into the life of the believer. What are the works of righteousness described by James and Paul.

truefiction1 · Sep 23, 2018

mark kennedy said:
Wh

I never argued against works of righteousness following saving faith, what do you suppose those works are? James is crystal clear in the context, as a matter of fact Paul is dealing with the exact same thing 1 Corinthians 11:21-22. James calls it the royal law, we are not likely to be called to make a human sacrifice. What James is talking about in James 2 are the fruits of righteousnrss. When Abraham first heard the promise he was young, when he was ready to sacrifice Isaac he was very old. He fulfill the promise of righteousness, after he laughed at the promise, begat Ishmael, and pleaded with God to make his servant his inheritance.

I say again, what are the works we are infused with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with. Sacraments or believing the word, James 1:18?

Well, since you asked, I suppose those works are: to do the will of God, as His will pertains to you.

truefiction1 · Sep 23, 2018

mark kennedy said:
Or better yet, how is that grace 'infused' into the life of the believer. What are the works of righteousness described by James and Paul.

As exactly stated in the Word of God: "through the hearing of faith".

Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

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