Do Catholics believe the souls in Purgatory can appear to the living?

[ICSCN]

Yes.

 

[John the Roman]

I remember reading that Pope Innocent III was believed to be in purgatory pretty soon after he died because he appeared to some nuns (because the Virgin Mary aked God to allow him to visit them) and asked them to pray for him.

All Souls Day

This is the fisheaters entry on All Souls Day and it actually has reference to some pious stories about souls in purgatory haunting places because it was where they committed sins or it was a place where they are too attached.

reposting on 5 just in case.

 

[Anna Scott]

I dont think so necessarily...It's true, not every Catholic author or publisher seeks this approval in today's day and age...it is, however, the only sure way to know that the book is sound...especially for someone who is quite unfamiliar with Catholic Doctrine and teachings.

So, I would say...my first thought is "no one bothered to have it checked/checked it" and would be careful of the information presented...perhaps do some extra research if I am concerned...

Clear as mud?

It's a little clearer than mud.

I do want to make sure whatever I am reading represents Catholic doctrine, since I am asking about the Catholic view of souls in Purgatory visiting the living or being "present" in a particular place, here.

I'll do some checking before I buy the book.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[Anna Scott]

I remember reading that Pope Innocent III was believed to be in purgatory pretty soon after he died because he appeared to some nuns (because the Virgin Mary aked God to allow him to visit them) and asked them to pray for him.

All Souls Day

This is the fisheaters entry on All Souls Day and it actually has reference to some pious stories about souls in purgatory haunting places because it was where they committed sins or it was a place where they are too attached.

John the Roman,
Very interesting about Pope Innocent III, and also about souls "haunting" places. Do you think the extra attention given on All Souls Day (which is also part of Anglicanism) might bring more activity?

Anna

 

[Anna Scott]

reposting on 5 just in case.

John,

Got it. Thanks.

Sidebar: Your Sola Scriptura "pop up" had me fooled there for a moment. I was trying to close it. My only excuse is that I'm really tired.

Anna

 

[christseeker45]

Here is from the the Diary of St. Faustina on visions of souls in Purgatory:

The Cloud of Fire: Visions of Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven according to St. Faustina

 

[John the Roman]

John the Roman,
Very interesting about Pope Innocent III, and also about souls "haunting" places. Do you think the extra attention given on All Souls Day (which is also part of Anglicanism) might bring more activity?

Anna

I found the quote which told the story of Innocent III on the Wikipedia page:

Innocent III was believed to be in purgatory on the very day he died. He is said to have appeared to St. Lutgarda in her monastery at Aywieres in Brabant. Engulfed in flames, he declared to her, “I am Pope Innocent”. He continued to explain that he was in purgatory for three faults which had caused him to arrive in this state. Innocent asked St. Lutgarda to come to his assistance, saying, “Alas! It is terrible; and will last for centuries if you do not come to my assistance. In the name of Mary, who has obtained for me the favour of appealing to you, help me!” At that moment he disappeared and St. Lutgarda informed her sisters of what she had seen.

Anyway, I'm not sure if it would increase their activity necessarily. Like I said, these are stories written by Christians very long ago, but it's not official teaching one way or the other. I would certainly believe that souls could appear to us though if God allowed it. All these ghost stories and paranormal activity reports were never things, even as a protestant, that I completely discounted (though as a protestant I would have attributed it more to demonic influence alone). Now as a Catholic I have a greater appreciation for them because I realize that they could be souls in purgatory or something of the like.

Remember what Harriet Tubman said in Uncle Tom's Cabin about Simon Legri, "There is no one more superstitious than the godless man" interestingly enough, Christians have a way to explain supernatural occurences and we needn't be irrationally afraid of them, but a godless man has no way to explain these things when they're right in front of him and so he is afraid. Not sure what that has to do with anything but anyway, haha.

I also know from reading Dave Armstrong's, "Biblical Evidence for the Communion of Saints" talks about certain theories of ghosts being souls in purgatory or sometimes souls in hell. He says that "Catholics believe in the reality of ghosts..." which is a sweeping statement, and I don't know if it's true officially. He then quoted Peter Kreeft (RC):

"...without our action or invitation, the dead often do appear to the living. There is enormous evidence of "ghosts" in all cultures. What are we to make of them? Surely we should not classify the appearances of the wives of C. S. Lewis and Sheldon Vanauken, just to take two Christian examples, as demonic? We can distinguish three kinds of ghosts, I believe. First, the most familiar kind: the sad ones, the wispy ones. They seem to be working out some unfinished earthly business, or suffering some purgatorial purification until released from their earthly business. These ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it to PUrgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past life on earth.
Second, there are the malicious and deceptive spirits - ans since they are deceptive, they hardly ever appear malicious. These are probably the ones who respond to conjurings at seances. They probably come from Hell. Even the chance of that happening should be sufficient to terrify all temptation to necromancy.
Third, there are the bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family, especially spouses, who appear unbidden, at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from Heaven. Unlike the purgatorial ghosts who come back primarily for their own sakes, these bright spirits come back for the sake of us the living, to tell us all is well. They are aped by evil spirits who say the same, who speak "peace, peace, when there is no peace." But the deception works only one way: the fake can deceive by appearing genuine, but the genuine never deceives by appearing fake. Heavenly spirits always convince us that they are genuinely good. Even the bright spirits appear ghostlike to us because a ghost of any type is one whose substance does not belong in or come from this world. In Heaven these spirits are not shosts but real, solid and substantial because they are at home there: One can't be a ghost in one's own country.
That there are all three kinds of ghosts is enormously likely. Even taking into account our penchant to deceive and be deceived, our credulity and fakery, there remain so many trustworthy accounts of all three types of ghosts - trustworthy by every ordinary empirical and psychological standard - that only a dogmatic a priori prejudice against them could prevent us from believing they exist. As Chestertonsays, 'We believe an old apple woman when whe says she ate an apple; but when she says she saw a ghost, we say 'but she is only an old apple woman'" A most undemocratic and unscientific prejudice."

- from his book, "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven"

It'd be interesting to see where he gets his examples of ghosts appearing to people from.

 

[Anna Scott]

Wonderful responses.

I will be back later to discuss them. Gotta see if the line has died down on this last day for early voting. There was a long line earlier.

More later,
Anna

 

[holyorders]

Without a doubt living on earth either is or part of Purgatory.

So is having to stay late at work to make up time...

 

[Basil the Great]

I found the quote which told the story of Innocent III on the Wikipedia page:

Innocent III was believed to be in purgatory on the very day he died. He is said to have appeared to St. Lutgarda in her monastery at Aywieres in Brabant. Engulfed in flames, he declared to her, “I am Pope Innocent”. He continued to explain that he was in purgatory for three faults which had caused him to arrive in this state. Innocent asked St. Lutgarda to come to his assistance, saying, “Alas! It is terrible; and will last for centuries if you do not come to my assistance. In the name of Mary, who has obtained for me the favour of appealing to you, help me!” At that moment he disappeared and St. Lutgarda informed her sisters of what she had seen.

Anyway, I'm not sure if it would increase their activity necessarily. Like I said, these are stories written by Christians very long ago, but it's not official teaching one way or the other. I would certainly believe that souls could appear to us though if God allowed it. All these ghost stories and paranormal activity reports were never things, even as a protestant, that I completely discounted (though as a protestant I would have attributed it more to demonic influence alone). Now as a Catholic I have a greater appreciation for them because I realize that they could be souls in purgatory or something of the like.

Remember what Harriet Tubman said in Uncle Tom's Cabin about Simon Legri, "There is no one more superstitious than the godless man" interestingly enough, Christians have a way to explain supernatural occurences and we needn't be irrationally afraid of them, but a godless man has no way to explain these things when they're right in front of him and so he is afraid. Not sure what that has to do with anything but anyway, haha.

I also know from reading Dave Armstrong's, "Biblical Evidence for the Communion of Saints" talks about certain theories of ghosts being souls in purgatory or sometimes souls in hell. He says that "Catholics believe in the reality of ghosts..." which is a sweeping statement, and I don't know if it's true officially. He then quoted Peter Kreeft (RC):

"...without our action or invitation, the dead often do appear to the living. There is enormous evidence of "ghosts" in all cultures. What are we to make of them? Surely we should not classify the appearances of the wives of C. S. Lewis and Sheldon Vanauken, just to take two Christian examples, as demonic? We can distinguish three kinds of ghosts, I believe. First, the most familiar kind: the sad ones, the wispy ones. They seem to be working out some unfinished earthly business, or suffering some purgatorial purification until released from their earthly business. These ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it to PUrgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past life on earth.
Second, there are the malicious and deceptive spirits - ans since they are deceptive, they hardly ever appear malicious. These are probably the ones who respond to conjurings at seances. They probably come from Hell. Even the chance of that happening should be sufficient to terrify all temptation to necromancy.
Third, there are the bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family, especially spouses, who appear unbidden, at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from Heaven. Unlike the purgatorial ghosts who come back primarily for their own sakes, these bright spirits come back for the sake of us the living, to tell us all is well. They are aped by evil spirits who say the same, who speak "peace, peace, when there is no peace." But the deception works only one way: the fake can deceive by appearing genuine, but the genuine never deceives by appearing fake. Heavenly spirits always convince us that they are genuinely good. Even the bright spirits appear ghostlike to us because a ghost of any type is one whose substance does not belong in or come from this world. In Heaven these spirits are not shosts but real, solid and substantial because they are at home there: One can't be a ghost in one's own country.
That there are all three kinds of ghosts is enormously likely. Even taking into account our penchant to deceive and be deceived, our credulity and fakery, there remain so many trustworthy accounts of all three types of ghosts - trustworthy by every ordinary empirical and psychological standard - that only a dogmatic a priori prejudice against them could prevent us from believing they exist. As Chestertonsays, 'We believe an old apple woman when whe says she ate an apple; but when she says she saw a ghost, we say 'but she is only an old apple woman'" A most undemocratic and unscientific prejudice."

- from his book, "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven"

It'd be interesting to see where he gets his examples of ghosts appearing to people from.

The main reason that I believe in some form of intermediate state, be it the Catholic Purgatory or the Orthodox Toll Houses, is the endless reports of ghosts being reported by people of all races and creeds. Perhaps ghosts are not in Limbo, but are actually in Purgatory? Maybe some are in Purgatory and some in Hell and even some in Limbo? We simply do not know.

 

[Defensor Christi]

The main reason that I believe in some form of intermediate state, be it the Catholic Purgatory or the Orthodox Toll Houses, is the endless reports of ghosts being reported by people of all races and creeds. Perhaps ghosts are not in Limbo, but are actually in Purgatory? Maybe some are in Purgatory and some in Hell and even some in Limbo? We simply do not know.

I agree with this...another (personnal not Church Official) theory that I had was the perhaps, in addition to some form of purgatorial stay on this plane, hell isnt "open for business"...perhaps damned souls are doomed to walk this plane until the final judgement when they are permanently cast into the lake of fire...just a thought...

That could explain why some "ghosts" are 'good' and some are 'bad' ... I dont know..

 

[Basil the Great]

I agree with this...another (personnal not Church Official) theory that I had was the perhaps, in addition to some form of purgatorial stay on this plane, hell isnt "open for business"...perhaps damned souls are doomed to walk this plane until the final judgement when they are permanently cast into the lake of fire...just a thought...

That could explain why some "ghosts" are 'good' and some are 'bad' ... I dont know..

Now that explanation does make a lot of sense and sounds somewhat like the Eastern Orthodox view that there is a conditional judgement after death and then ultimately the final judgement.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Now that explanation does make a lot of sense and sounds somewhat like the Eastern Orthodox view that there is a conditional judgement after death and then ultimately the final judgement.

Interesting...do you mind explaining 'conditional judgement'...does that mean the judgement changes?

 

[John the Roman]

Interesting...do you mind explaining 'conditional judgement'...does that mean the judgement changes?

I think he means that at death you're destined for hell or heaven but you don't fully go there until the last trumpet, you just experience foretastes of either. (Except maybe the Theotokos, whose body is ressurrected)

As far as I know this corresponds with just about all Christian teaching, of the West or the East.

 

[Anna Scott]

Without a doubt living on earth either is or part of Purgatory.

So is having to stay late at work to make up time...

holyorders,
I've heard this idea before, and it is an interesting one. It might be a possible explanation for the lingering of a soul in a particular place, where some terrible act was committed.

There are beliefs within Anglican theology of some sort of purification process after death, but not in the same way as in the Catholic view of Purgatory. I know there is a type of Purgatory that is well within the beliefs of Judaism.

With all the reported appearances of depart souls; I'm really trying to give the Catholic view of Purgatory proper and serious consideration.

Though, it has been expressed earlier in the thread that God may allow a soul in Heaven to appear to us. Would that be the same for someone in Hell? Just throwing out that question.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[Anna Scott]

The other part of this issue, which I touched on earlier in the thread, is the possibility of Demons appearing in some form or even taking on human form.

I've had two experiences when I actually saw something.

In my previous home, there was one bedroom, in which visitors felt very uneasy. One of my friends, had me go through everything in the closet in that room. She felt some presence there and was concerned that I might have some object that was attracting a demon. Scarey. Anyway, we went through everything. I got rid of anything of question. My friend still felt uneasy sleeping in the room. When my sister came to visit, she stayed in the bedroom directly across the hall and she felt uneasiness and told me she prayed for protection every night. It was the room across the hall that was the problem.

Some time passed, and I decided to turn my master bedroom into a den. I moved my furniture into the bedroom that had been disturbing to my friends (how quickly we forget.) It didn't take long, until I started feeling like I was being visited each night. Some nights were worse than others.

One particular night, I went to bed and started feeling this presence. I opened my eyes and looked up to see an ominous-formless-something hovering over me. I ran out of the room screaming. The fear was quickly tempered with embarrassment.

My son had a bunch of his friends over to play computer games. They set up tables out in the living and kitchen area. I let him have these parties at our house, because I could check on what they were doing and playing at any point, evening or during the night.

So, imagine my son playing games with all his friends, and good old mom lets out a blood curdling scream. My son ran back to my room to find out what was wrong. I told him what happened. He was a bit shocked. I was shocked and shaken.

Of course all the guys heard my screams. I went from cool mom (who allowed the "invasion of teenagers") to crazy mom in about two seconds.

That was the only time I saw anything in that room, but I felt "visited" almost nightly. Oddly, it was confined to that one room in the house. Our house was about 11 years old. The land had to be cleared to build our subdivision, which was the last subdivision before country and cattle ranches.

I eventually sold the house. Upon my sister's first visit to my condo, she told me she didn't realize how bad my house was. She said my condo had a completely different feel. She no longer felt the need to pray for protection every night.

Does anyone have any idea what that could have been?

Anna

 

[Basil the Great]

Interesting...do you mind explaining 'conditional judgement'...does that mean the judgement changes?

Well....... after writing a long response to your very important question, I have decided to delete my response. I am not a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church and so I hesitate to try and give an explanation on a topic that to me is somewhat complex and where there appears to be some difference of opinoin within Orthodoxy re: St. Basil's Third Kneeling Pentecost Prayer, which is really at the heart of your question re: "does that mean that judgment changes". Based upon what I can find on the internet, it seems like there are two different versions of his Third Kneeling Prayer, with one version being longer and much more generous in it's request for the souls in hades/hell. Hopefully some EO posters will pick up on your question. Better yet, just in case they would rather not tackle this here, I am going to start a new thread for this topic on The Ancient Way board.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Why does the RCC believe in purgatory at all? I still see no evidence for it. (I've seen the so called proof texts, they don't prove purgatory, to me anyway.)

There is plenty of reason to believe in Purgatory. It is deducible from Scripture and reason that for a person to be justified, they must be cleansed of their sins before enjoying the reward of Heaven. In order to do that, one must face Purgatory and pay by those sins. It's either that, or the cruelty of sending one to Hell over venial sins.
Sins are not created equal, and I think this is a big problem for non-Catholics rejecting Purgatory. There is too much 'grey' for such a black & white judgement.
It's not just Purgatory, but we believe that punishment in Hell is proportionate to the sins of the person. It is a matter of balance and fairness, there will even be those called lessor or greater in Heaven.

 

[Angeldove97]

Neat thread...

I have personally seen ghosts and have felt/seen demons- now I'm wondering if the ghosts that I saw were demons and I just didn't sense the evilness in them.

I wasn't sure what the Catholic Church taught... so I found these articles that some might like to read as well:

Does the Catholic Church Believe in Ghosts? « Bread From Heaven

First, the Church forbids us to conjure up the dead (Catechism 2116-2117). Peter Kreeft in his book Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Heaven (pgs 34-35) says the reason for “this stricture is probably protection against the danger of deception by evil spirits. We are out of our depth, our knowledge, and our control once we open the doors to the supernatural. The only openings that are safe for us are the ones God has approved: revelation, prayer, His own miracles, sacraments, and primarily Christ Himself…The danger is not physical but spiritual, and spiritual danger always centers on deception.”

“Nevertheless, without our action or invitation, the dead often do appear to the living. There is enormous evidence of “ghosts” in all cultures. What are we to make of them?” He goes on to say “We can distinguish three kinds of ghosts, I believe. First, the most familiar kind: the sad ones, the wispy ones. They seem to be working out some unfinished earthly business, or suffering some purgatorial purification until released from their earthly business. These ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it to Purgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past lives on earth.

Second, there are malicious and deceptive spirits—and since they are deceptive, they hardly ever appear malicious. These are probably the ones who respond to conjurings at seances. They probably come from Hell. Even the chance of that happening should be sufficient to terrify away all temptations to necromancy."

"Third, there are bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family, especially spouses, who appear unbidden, at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from Heaven. Unlike the purgatorial ghosts who come back primarily for their own sakes, these bright spirits come back for the sake of us the living, to tell us all is well. They are aped by evil spirits who say the same, who speak 'peace, peace, when there is no peace'. But the deception works only one way: the fake can deceive by appearing genuine, but the genuine never deceives by appearing fake. Heavenly spirits always convince us that they are genuinely good. Even the bright spirits appear ghostlike to us because a ghost of any type is one whose substance does not belong in or come from this world. In Heaven these spirits are not ghosts but real, solid and substantial because they are at home there: One can't be a ghost in one's own country."

Post from: Catholic Answers Forums - View Single Post - What's the Catholic theory behind such phenomena as ghosts?

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Personally, I don't believe in ghosts, but it's not because I don't believe they can exist, but rather because I have never had enough reason to believe they should exist.

I have never seen a ghost or found anything to have me authentically believe they have occurred. Whenever it is stressed, however, I think more along the lines of demons.
I believe demons may use trickery to make people believe that there are ghosts, to have people focused on the dead and not the living.

The Bible gives ample warnings of sorcery, false miracles, and so on. I recommend that if anyone sees such a thing as a ghost or celestial being, preach the gospel to it and try the spirit., make sure it is what it appears to be.