Do Catholics and Orthodox rely on private interpretation?

patricius79

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They interpret something else, but it's still a matter of interpreting.

Is there any difference historically?

For example, can you name on person between 100 and 1300 A.D., and then show that they agree with three or more of the Protestant interpretations?
 
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patricius79

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That's not Transubstantiation. It's Real Presence, and lots of us non-RCs believe in the Real Presence.

.,
By definition, any council cannot be "ecumenical" if it doesn't represent the whole of the church. The great majority of councils considered to be Ecumenical Councils by the Roman Catholic Church were for Vatican Catholics only. So...not "Ecumenical."

Cyril said that the bread is not bread after the Consecration.

How do you determine if a council "represents the whole Church"?
 
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laternonjuror

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Cyril said that the bread is not bread after the Consecration.

How do you determine if a council "represents the whole Church"?

We, catholic, or traditional Anglicans believe in the Real Presence! I'm not sure what ,'Cyril,'said so I can't quarrel on his comment. But traditional Catholics believe Christ is present in the Sacraments. I can't see any quarrel about Cyril's comments.
A Catholic Council is a free council called by a reputable set of Bishops in a particular Church agreed by comment consent, afterwords it would receive the acclamation of all catholic bishops, or not.
It would be affirmed in their own local Synods by by their own Bishops assenting, or rejecting & possibly by asking the local chapter of clergy to discuss the actions of the general Council and pass their opinions on it to the Bishop.
There are seven Ecumenical Councils, usually called by the Emperor, possibly after calls from the lBishops, mostly I shoud imagine from the East!
 
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Open Heart

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One has to look at the relationship between the Romans and the Corinthians. Corinth was a satellite of Rome. They do not appear at this time to have a bishop, or if they had, he wasn't doing his job! The fact is that Rome was undoubtedly
an enormous size in those days and the fact that the Bishop was in theory the Emperors parish priest did help".
So you basically agree that if needed, the Bishop of Rome has the authority to step outside of his bishopric. Thank you.
 
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laternonjuror

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Please show that even one person has said exactly that.

It is the Bible that says "hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter" (2 Thes 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2, 1 Pt 1:25, Acts 8:14)

What we reject are the Protestant oral traditions, which say that such words of God are no longer living and active..
But show us where the Pope's supremacy is in Tradition or the early Fathers.
Sorry about addressing the post ,'Lady,' it's age! (mine.)
 
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laternonjuror

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So you basically agree that if needed, the Bishop of Rome has the authority to step outside of his bishopric. Thank you.
You haven't replied to the point about another bishop's see! If Corinth, hadn't a bishop at that time, there would be no trouble!

Also, that point about not moving in to another bishop's see, was 325, Nicea. When was the letter written?
 
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patricius79

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A Catholic Council is a free council called by a reputable set of Bishops in a particular Church agreed by comment consent, afterwords it would receive the acclamation of all catholic bishops, or not.
It would be affirmed in their own local Synods by by their own Bishops assenting, or rejecting & possibly by asking the local chapter of clergy to discuss the actions of the general Council and pass their opinions on it to the Bishop.
There are seven Ecumenical Councils, usually called by the Emperor, possibly after calls from the lBishops, mostly I shoud imagine from the East!

There have been many councils long before the Great Schism. Why do you say there have only been "7 Ecumenical Councils"?
 
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Open Heart

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You haven't replied to the point about another bishop's see! If Corinth, hadn't a bishop at that time, there would be no trouble!

Also, that point about not moving in to another bishop's see, was 325, Nicea. When was the letter written?
Source for Corinth not having a bishop?

I know it's okay for Rome to give advice to another Bishop's see. It's because Peter is over other bishops. I thank you for providing a source documenting this. However, it is unecessary, given that Clement's letter to Corinth at a much earlier date already establishes it.
 
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patricius79

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But show us where the Pope's supremacy is in Tradition or the early Fathers.
Sorry about addressing the post ,'Lady,' it's age! (mine.)

Here is St. Irenaeus in the 100s:


"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those... by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2)
 
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prodromos

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Here is St. Irenaeus in the 100s:


"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those... by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2)
For a proper analysis of the above I would need to post a large portion from Abbe Guettée or from the lectures laternonjuror mentioned in the book by Fr Puller. Needless to say, Irenaeus does not claim what Papal supporters believe he does in the passage quoted above.
 
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Open Heart

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For a proper analysis of the above I would need to post a large portion from Abbe Guettée or from the lectures laternonjuror mentioned in the book by Fr Puller. Needless to say, Irenaeus does not claim what Papal supporters believe he does in the passage quoted above.
Depends on what is, is?
 
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patricius79

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For a proper analysis of the above I would need to post a large portion from Abbe Guettée or from the lectures laternonjuror mentioned in the book by Fr Puller. Needless to say, Irenaeus does not claim what Papal supporters believe he does in the passage quoted above.

What is their argument?

Also, what do you think Cyprian means when he calls Rome "the Chair of Peter and the principal Church, from which priestly unity takes its source"?

As I understand it, the Eastern Orthodox scholar Afanassieff--in the famous book, "The Primacy of Peter" (Meyendorff) acknowledged that the Eastern Orthodox do not have a systematic doctrine of Church government, and cannot refute the Catholic doctrine of primacy.

In the same book, the Eastern Orthodox scholar Schmemann, says that the Fathers and Councils "unanimously" acknowledge Rome as the "the senior church and center of Ecumenical agreement".

Maybe I can ask you what I asked Later. How do we determine which councils are Ecumenical? I know, for example, that there were councils in Constantinople which approved straight Arianism.

There were also a number of Eastern Orthodox councils which affirmed Transubstantiation in the way the Catholic Church teaches it.

Ecclesiastically speaking, why are these not considered Ecumenical? Is it simply because the Pope did not approve them?
 
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prodromos

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http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/guettee_thepapacy.pdf
But it is not possible conscientiously to study these facts from reliable documents without eliciting this truth: that the influence of the Bishop of' Rome did not arise in an universal authority-that it did not even have its source in an authority recognized by all the Western Churches, but was simply derived from the importance of his See.
Rome was the centre of all communications between different parts of the Empire. The faithful crowded thither from all quarters-for political business or private interests and thus her testimony as an Apostolic Church was strengthened by the faithful who came thither from all parts of the world, bringing the witness of all the Churches to which they severally belonged.
Such is the sense of a passage of St. Irenæus, of which the Roman theologians have made the strangest misuse.
This great theologian, attacking the heretics who sought to corrupt the faithful at Rome, establishes against them the Catholic rule of faith, preserved everywhere and always. "But," he adds, "as it would be very tedious to enumerate in such a work the succession of all the Churches, we will trace that of the very great and very ancient Church and known of all, which was founded and established at Rome by the two very glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul; which possesses a tradition that comes from the Apostles as much as the Faith declared to men, and which has transmitted it to us through the succession of her Bishops; by that, we confound all those who in any manner whatsoever, either through blindness or bad intention, do not gather where they should ; For. every Church, that is to say, the faithful who are from all places, are obliged to go toward that Church, because of the most powerful principality. In this Church, the tradition of the Apostles has been preserved by those who are of all countries."
The Romish theologians choose a bad translation of this passage, in order to find in it an argument in favor of the papal sovereignty. Instead of saying that the faithful of the whole world were obliged to go to Rome, because it was the Capital of the Empire, the seat of government, and the centre of all business, civil and political, they translate convenire ad by the words, to agree with-which is a misinterpretation; they make potentiorem principalitatem refer to the Church of Rome, and they see in this its primacy, whereas these words are only used in a general manner, and nothing indicates that they do not solely designate the capital and principal city of the Empire. Again, they translate, maximae, antiquissimae, by greatest and most ancient, without reflecting that they thus attribute to St. Irenæus an assertion manifestly false; for, granting that the Church of Rome was the greatest of her day, she could not certainly be called the most ancient-every one knew that a great number of churches had been founded in the East before that of Rome. Moreover, their translation does not make the author say in conclusion, that the Apostolic tradition has been preserved at Rome, by those who were of all countries-(ab his qui sunt undique,) as the text requires, but like Pius IX., in his Encyclical Letter to the Christians of the East, “In all that the faithful believe," not reflecting that this is a misconstruction, and that they are thus attributing nonsense to the good Father. In the text as we render it all things hang together. St. Irenæus after having established that only the universal Faith should be received, points out to the heretics of that city the Church of Rome, as offering to them an evidence the more convincing that Apostolic tradition had been there preserved by the faithful of the whole world.
How then could St. Irenæus, whose purpose it is to give the universal Faith as the rule for private belief, and who enlarges precisely upon this point in the chapter from which the text is taken, logically say what is attributed to him by the Popes and their theologians? He would then have argued thus: It is necessary to adopt as the rule the belief of all the churches; but it suffices to appeal to that of the Church of Rome, to which there must be uniformity and submission, because of her primacy. St. Irenæus never expressed so unreasonable an opinion. He lays down as a principle the universal Faith as a rule, and he points out the Faith of the Church of Rome as true--thanks to the concourse of the faithful who assembled there from all parts, and who thus preserved there the Apostolic tradition. How did they preserve it? Because they would have protested against any change in the traditions of their own churches, to which they were witnesses at Rome. St. Irenæus does not give the pretended Divine authority of the Bishop of Rome, as the principle of the preservation of tradition in the Church of that city--but logically, he attributes that preservation to the faithful of other Churches who controlled her traditions by those of their own Churches, and who thus formed an invincible obstacle to innovation.
It was natural that the Bishop of the Capital of the Empire, precisely because of the faithful who there gathered from all parts, should acquire a great influence in religious matters, and even occasionally take the lead. But all the monuments, as also the circumstances attending, those transactions in which he took part, show that he enjoyed no authority superior to that of the other Bishops.
It is clear that all discussion relative to this text of St. Irenæus turns upon the sense to be given to the word convenire. If this word signifies to agree with, we must conclude that the venerable writer thought it all must necessarily agree with the Church of Rome, and without that it is impossible to be in the unity. If the word means to go, all the Ultramontane scaffolding will fall of itself, for it can not reasonably be affirmed that all the faithful must of Necessity go to Rome, even though the Church established in that city should be the first and principal Church, the centre of Unity. It follows that the sense of this word should be determined in so evident a manner that there remain no doubt in respect to it.
We have already remarked that the preposition ad determined the sense of it--we can add many others to this already conclusive proof If we possessed the Greek text of the passage in question, there is no doubt there would not be the uncertainty resulting from the Latin word. But Eusebius and Nicephorus have preserved for us other fragments of the primitive text. Now it happens that in these fragments the good Father uses expressions which the Latin translator has rendered by the word convenire, and which have no meaning, except just this one of going--whether together or separately.
In the second book, chapter xxii., (Migne's edition, col. 785,) St, Irenæus says: "All the priests who have gone to Asia, to John, disciple of the Lord, bear witness to it.” Greek Text: ke pántes i presvíteri martiróvsin, i katá tin asían Ioánni to Tov Kiríon Mathití simvevlikótes.
Latin translation: “Omnes seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Joannem discipulum Domini convenerunt."
In the third book, 21st chapter, (Migne's edition, col. 947,) speaking of the Septuagint interpreters of Scripture, St. Irenæus says of them, “Being assembled at Ptolemy's house," etc.
In Greek: Sinelthónton de aftón epí to aftó pará to ptoleméo
The Latin translator renders this "Convenientibus autem ipsis in unum apud Ptolemaeum."
The Benedictine Massuet, editor of St. Irenæus's works, pretends that St. Irenæus must have used in the text in question, the words simvénin pros tín ton Roméon Eklisían. And he pretends that simvénin pros tiná is the same thing as simvénin tiní.
Although this opinion were unimpeachable, such erudition would be worth nothing, for we must content ourselves with supposing that the good father has used the word simvénin. It would seem to us more natural and logical to look for the unknown word among the known words, which the translator renders convenire. Now from that study, it should appear that St. Irenæus did not use simvénin, but simvevlikótes, which has the sense of a running together toward a place, or of sinelthóntes, which has an analogous signification, since, in the Greek texts that have been preserved, he has used these words to express the idea for which the translator used convenire.
In general, the translator of St. Irenæus gives to the word convenire the sense of to go, and not to agree with.. Why then give it this sense in the famous text in question, when in the text itself the preposition ad gives the idea of direction toward a place, and the adverb undique gives that of departure from all places other than Rome where the faithful were found?
Nothing is wanting to prove that it is impossible to give to the words of St. Irenæus the sense attributed to them by the Romish theologians. The good father then has simply said that, the concourse of Believers from all countries, drawn to Rome by the necessities of their business, because that city was the first and most powerful of the Empire, contributed to preserve there the Apostolic tradition, because those Believers carried there the Faith of the Churches to which they belonged.
.
.
When Constantinople had become the capital of the Roman Empire, St. Gregory Nazienzen said of that Church, what St. Irenæus had said of that of Rome, and with still more formal expressions. " This city," said he, " is the eye of the world. The most distant nations press toward her from all parts, and they draw from her as from a spring the principles of the Faith." (Greg. Naz. 42d dis., §10, col..470, Migne's edit.) The Latin translation of St. Gregory, like that of St. Irenæus, employs the word convenire to express the crowding Of people toward Constantinople. Must we give to it the sense of agreeing with, because this Father calls Constantinople not only a powerful and principal Church but the eye of the world, source of faith?
The ninth canon of the Council of Antioch held in 341, will of itself be sufficient to determine the sense of the text of St. Irenæus. The canon reads: "Let the bishops established in each province know that to the bishop of the metropolitan city is confided the care of the whole province, because all those who have business come to the metropolis from all parts. Therefore it has appeared advisable to grant a superior honor to him."
If the faithful were drawn to a mere metropolis to transact their business, how much more to the capital of the empire, which was for them a necessary centre, and in which they must meet from all parts of the empire. Such is the fact established by St. Irenæus, and from it he concludes that the witness of the Church of Rome should suffice to confound heretics.
Finally let us remark, that the chapter of the learned Father only relates to the heretics of Rome, for whom he destined the book; and that will convince us, that it is a strange abuse of the words to give them an absolute sense, making them relate to heretics in general, and to all ages; for he only affirmed that the Roman Church had preserved her apostolic tradition pure to his time, and not, that she would always so preserve it.​
 
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https://archive.org/details/primitivesaintss00pull
I proceed to consider the famous passage in that same Father's treatise, "Against all heretics" which Roman Catholics are very fond of quoting, whereas, as I hope to show, it is in reality wholly irreconcilable with the papal claims. S. Irenaeus is exposing the fallaciousness of the arguments used by the Gnostics. They said that their heretical doctrines were derived from the apostles, who delivered them " not in writing but in speech." S. Irenaeus, in reply, appealed " to that tradition which comes from the apostles, and which is guarded by the successions of the presbyters in the churches." " It is," he says, " within the power of all, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the world in every church (in omni ecclesia) : and we are able to enumerate those whom the apostles appointed to be bishops in the churches, and their successors, quite down to our own time ; who neither taught nor knew anything like what these [heretics] rave about. Yet surely, if the apostles had known any hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of teaching to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have taken special care to deliver them to those, to whom they were also committing the churches themselves; … but because it would be too long in such a volume as this to enumerate the successions of all the churches (omnium ecclesiarum), we point to the tradition of that very great and very ancient and universally known church which was founded and established at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul ;---” we point, I say, to the tradition which this church has from the apostles, and to her faith proclaimed to men, which comes down to our time through the succession of her bishops, and so we put to confusion all those who, in whatever sort, either on account of self-pleasing, or of vain glory, or of blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings. For to this church, on account of its more influential pre-eminence (propter potentiorem principalitatem), it is necessary that every church (omnem ecclesiam) should resort --- that is to say, the faithful, who are from all quarters ; and in this church (in qua) the tradition, which comes from the apostles, has ever been preserved by those who are from all quarters." Unfortunately, the original Greek of this last sentence has not been preserved, but only an ancient Latin translation, which I here subjoin: "Ad hanc enim ecclesiam propter potentiorem"(al. potiorem) principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam, hoc est, eos qui sunt undique fideles, in qua, semper ab his, qui sunt undique, conservata est ea quae est ab apostolis traditio."

Before we proceed to investigate the exact meaning of this last sentence and of the various expressions which occur therein, it will be well to consider what is the pith and substance and scope of S. Irenaeus' argument. What he wishes to enforce is, that the teaching of the apostles may be learnt from the public witness of the various apostolic churches among which there was, at the time when S. Irenaeus wrote (circa 180), complete doctrinal agreement in regard to all the great fundamental points which had to be discussed in the controversy with the Gnostics. He gives reasons for supposing that the first bishops of the apostolic churches were fully instructed by the apostles, who appointed them, in the complete system of apostolic teaching. He further asserts that the catalogues of the names of the various bishops who had succeeded each other in the different apostolic sees, existed in his time, and that it was well known that no one of those bishops had ever taught the heresies maintained by the Gnostics. He argues from these premises that the original teaching, which the apostles were commissioned to promulgate, was not the teaching propagated by the Gnostic bodies. As the apostolic churches were many in number, he thinks it sufficient to make a selection from among them, because an exhaustive investigation of the episcopal catalogues in all of them would take too long.

He chooses as his first specimen the primatial Church of Rome, which not only ranked first among all the apostolic churches, but was also the nearest apostolic see to Lyons, and was the church in which in all probability S. Irenaeus had himself received his consecration to the episcopate. We shall see further on that S. Irenaeus points out that the Roman Church, on account of its special pre-eminence, was continually visited by representatives of other churches all over the world, and that this fact constituted an additional guarantee of the purity of its faith. In the section which follows that important statement, he proceeds to give the catalogue of the Roman bishops, from Linus, who received the episcopate from S. Peter and S. Paul, the apostolic founders of the Roman Church, to Eleutherus, who held the bishop's office in Rome at the time when he (S. Irenaeus) was writing.

He dwells specially on the witness of S. Clement, because it was manifest from his Epistle to the Corinthians, which was older than the rise of the various Gnostic sects, that the earlier teaching of the Roman Church agreed, not with the

Gnostics, but with the teaching of S. Irenaeus' contemporary, Eleutherus ; and, since S. Clement had personally known S. Peter and S. Paul, and was surrounded, when he wrote his epistle, by many Christians who had been instructed by them, there was every reason to believe that his teaching, which was, in fact, identical with the teaching of his successors, was also a faithful representation of the teaching of the apostles. Thus the argument against the Gnostics, derivable from the witness of the Roman Church, was very strong, and S. Irenaeus might well say in regard to it, "This is a very full proof {osteiisio) of the unity and sameness of the life-giving faith, which from the apostles even until now hath been preserved in the Church, and handed down in truth."

Having begun with the witness of the apostolic Church of Rome, S. Irenaeus refers next to the witness of the apostolic Church of Smyrna. He points out that its first bishop, S. Polycarp, had special opportunities of ascertaining the true apostolic tradition of the faith. He had been made a disciple by apostles, and had conversed with many who had seen Christ. It was by the apostles who were in Asia that he was appointed in due time bishop of the Church in Smyrna. All through his long life he had taught the things which he had learnt from the apostles, " which things alone are true." He had finally sealed his faithful teaching by his glorious martyrdom in extreme old age. He had learnt from S. John to have a special horror of holding any communications with heresiarchs. S. Polycarp's teaching may be studied in his Epistle to the Philippians ; and that same teaching is attested by his successors at Smyrna and by all the other churches in Asia. Such is, in brief, the substance of what S. Irenaeus says about the testimony of the Church in Smyrna.

Finally, he refers to the witness of the apostolic Church of Ephesus. That church had also two apostles to found it, viz. S. Paul and S. John. The latter remained at Ephesus until the times of Trajan, who reigned from 98 to 117. As a consequence, the privilege of being instructed by an apostle lasted on in Ephesus much longer than in any other church ; and S. Irenaeus assures us that in his own time the Church of Ephesus was a true witness of the apostles' tradition.

Having referred to the testimony of the three important apostolic churches of Rome, Smyrna, and Ephesus, S. Irenaeus goes on to say, "Since, therefore, we have proofs of such cogency {tantae ostensiones), we ought not to seek the truth among others, which it is easy to obtain from the Church."

It is important to notice that S. Irenaeus' appeal is primarily to the witness of all the apostolic churches. At the beginning of the whole argument, he speaks of " the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the world in every church," and he declares that he is " able to enumerate those whom the apostles appointed to be bishops in the churches, and their successors, quite down to his own time." And at the end of the argument he says, " For how stands the case ? Even though the dispute were but about some ordinary question, would it not be right to recur to the most ancient churches, in which the apostles lived, and to receive from those churches what is certain and clear in regard to the question in hand?" The chief reason which he gives for referring to the testimony of the Roman Church, is that it would take too long to enumerate the successions of the bishops in all the churches. His appeal to Rome is prompted by convenience rather than by any dogmatic reason. At any rate, the motive of convenience drives him to make a selection, and ultimately he in fact selects the churches of Rome, Smyrna, and Ephesus.

It is also very noticeable that in regard to all these three churches, S. Irenaeus takes care to point out all the circumstances of their early history, which would make it probable that the tradition of the faith had been transmitted pure and unaltered from the time of the apostles to the time in which he was writing. The apostolic training of S. Clement of Rome, and of S. Polycarp of Smyrna; the anti-Gnostic teaching of S. Clement's Epistle, which preceded the rise of the great Gnostic leaders ; the extreme old age to which S. Polycarp lived, and his hatred of heresy ; the length of S. John's sojourn at Ephesus ; --- these and many other similar details are used by S. Irenaeus to show how probable it is that the apostolic tradition has been faithfully transmitted in the three churches to whose witness he appeals. He knew well that the fact that a church could trace its succession of bishops back to the apostles would not be an absolute guarantee of the purity of its faith, although in the latter part of the second century it would imply a strong presumption of such purity. He therefore takes care to bring forward every corroborative circumstance, which could add strength to his argument. But is it possible to suppose that S. Irenaeus would have patiently enumerated all these corroborative circumstances in the history of the three churches to which he appeals --- nay, is it possible to suppose that he would have included in any way the Churches of Smyrna and Ephesus in his appeal, if he had supposed that all churches were bound of necessity to agree in doctrine with the Church of Rome, on the ground that the Bishops of Rome had been endowed with the gift of infallibility? Yet this is the theory which is attributed to S. Irenaeus by Ultramontane controversialists, and in proof of their thesis they triumphantly bring forward the celebrated sentence, beginning with the words, "ad hanc enim ecclesiam," which I have quoted on p. 20, and the meaning 'of which we must now proceed to investigate.​
continued next post.
 
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continued from above
I will begin by giving the translation of the passage which, Dr. Rivington tells us, is " ordinarily adopted by [Roman] Catholic writers " : " It is necessary that every church, that is, the faithful who are everywhere, should agree with this church ; in which that tradition which is from the apostles has been preserved by those who are everywhere."

Dr. Rivington himself evidently regards this translation as being substantiallyaccurate ; for he says, " The plain and simple meaning, therefore, of S. Irenaeus remains in possession. All churches must agree with the Church of

Rome, so that if you know the faith of the Church of Rome you know the faith of the whole Christian Church." He also says, " If all orthodox churches are necessarily found to be in agreement with the Church of Rome, what is this but ascribing infallibility to that Church .'' This, indeed, is what S. Irenaeus does ascribe to Rome." We are not expressly told in the passages quoted above what is the ordinary Roman Catholic translation of the words "propter potentiorem principalitatem ; " but it is clear from the heading which Dr. Rivington has prefixed to his third chapter, and from other passages of his book, that he regards " principalitatem " as equivalent to " sovereignty." I quite agree with Dr. Rivington that, if S. Irenaeus taught that all Christian churches must necessarily agree with the Church of Rome, then S. Irenaeus certainly by implication ascribed to that church the gift of infallibility. But I ask again, How is it possible to suppose that, if that had been his belief, he would have framed his argument against the

Gnostics in the way in which he did actually frame it? Could he possibly, on that hypothesis, have mentioned convenience as his principal reason for appealing to the witness of the Roman Church? Is it conceivable that after appealing to the infallible Roman Church he could go on to appeal in a similar way, first to the fallible Church of Smyrna, and then to the fallible Church of Ephesus ? In fact, why should he begin and end by a general appeal to all the apostolic churches.'' The difference between an apostolic church and a non-apostolic church practically disappears, when it is compared with the great gulf which separates an infallible sovereign church from a fallible subject church. And if the faith taught by the Bishops of Rome was always infallibly orthodox, why take the trouble to enumerate corroborative details in the history of the transmission of the apostolic tradition not only in the Church of Rome, but in the Churches of Smyrna and Ephesus .'' Indeed, it may not be too much to say that, apart from any investigation of the meaning of the particular expressions used by S. Irenaeus, we may set aside as absolutely out of the question any interpretation of the passage, which plainly implies that the Church of Rome or the Bishops of Rome were endowed with the gift of infallibility.

And when we come to investigate the meaning of the particular expressions used, we find, as we should expect to find, a very complete confirmation of the conclusion at which we have arrived.

Let us begin by considering what is the true meaning of the phrase " convenire ad." Does S. Irenaeus mean to say that it is necessary that every church should agree with the Church of Rome? or that every church should resort to the Church of Rome? The Italian Jesuit Perrone, quoting and adopting the comment of Dom Massuet, rejects the second of these two interpretations as absurdissimum ; and with Perrone and Massuet in their rejection of that interpretation agree the greater number of Ultramontane writers, and some Gallicans.

However, I am thankful to see that Messrs. Wilhelm and Scannell, in their Manual of Catholic Theology, which is based on Scheeben's Dogniatik, and to which is prefixed a commendatory preface by the late Cardinal Manning, adopt the rendering "resort to." And the very learned Roman Catholic historian, Dr. F. X. Funk, writing in 1882, tells us that " within the last few years," the translation " resort to " has begun "to meet with more acceptance, even in [Roman] Catholic circles." Dr. Funk himself, after elaborately discussing the ordinary Roman Catholic translation of the whole sentence, and showing to what absurdity it leads, says, " Under these circumstances there remains no other course than to abandon the traditional translation of ' convenire,' which is the sole cause of the above-cited absurdity." He ends up by accepting the rendering " resort to."

But the fact is that the translation " agree with " not only involves the whole sentence in absurdity, as Dr. Funk points out, but it is itself, as a translation, and apart from the context, most improbable. I find that the word convenire is used in the Vulgate one hundred and eleven times. In ninety-seven places it means " resort to" or "assemble ;" and in ten places it is translated in the Douay Version, "agree with," usually in the sense of making a bargain or agreement with another person. It is clear, therefore, that the more common meaning of convenire is to " resort to." But the point can be pressed more closely home. I find that in twenty-six passages the verb convenire is followed by the preposition ad, and in every one of these passages "convenire ad " means " to resort to,'' or, more accurately, "come together to"' It would perhaps be rash to lay down a universal negative, and to say that " convenire ad " never means " agree with ; " but, as far as I am aware, no such passage has ever yet been produced. The normal meaning of the expression is undoubtedly " to resort to," and the onus probandi lies on those who teach that in this passage of S. Irenaeus it ought to be understood in an abnormal way.

Passages can, no doubt, be found in the works of Latin authors in which " convenire cum " is to be understood in the sense of " agree with ; " but we have to do here with the expression " convenire ad',' and not with the expression "convenire cum'' It is amusing and instructive to notice that Perrone, on one occasion, makes a slip in quoting the passage with which we are dealing, and substitutes cum for ad?'

There are several touches in the wording of the passage which we are considering, which corroborate the view of the meaning of " convenire ad " which I am urging. When S. Irenaeus says that it is necessary that every church should resort to the Church of Rome, he feels that some explanation is needed, because it is physically impossible that every church in the world should assemble in one city, however great He, therefore, glosses the expression " omnem ecclesiam," and adds, "hoc est eos qui sunt undique fideles."

This gloss would have been quite superfluous if " convenire ad " had meant " agree with." It is easy to see how every church can agree with another church ; there is need of an interpretation when we are told that it is necessary that every church should resort to another church, and accordingly an interpretation is given. S. Irenaeus tells us that, when he says " every church," he means " the faithful from all quarters." They are in the habit of resorting to Rome, and in them the local churches, to which they belong, may be said to resort thither.

Again, if S. Irenaeus had meant to say that it is necessary that every church should agree with the Church of Rome, it would have been more natural, when he came to explain what he meant by "every church," to have used the word udique rather than undique. Agreement with the Church at Rome in no way implies any need to journey thither. Christians could agree, remaining where they were, scattered everywhere (ubique). But S. Irenaeus uses undique, which, when taken in its ordinary meaning, seems to denote the normal situation of their various homes, with an implied contrast with their present place of sojourning. The prima facie meaning of undique is "from all quarters," not " everywhere. " It is most natural that the idea conveyed by undique should occur in a sentence in which convenire ad also occurs ; for, as we have seen, the true meaning of convenire ad implies a journey, and so a change of location. The faithful from all quarters came to Rome ; and they necessarily brought with them, written on their hearts and memories, the apostolic tradition of the faith, which each had learnt in his own local church.

Thus in Rome, as in other great ecclesiastical centres, but in Rome more especially on account of its pre-eminent position, the tradition of the faith was not only preserved by the local church --- that is, by the local clergy and laity, headed by their bishop --- but there was an inflow of Christians from all the other churches in the world, and the tradition of the faith was found to be everywhere one, and so the apostolic tradition was preserved with much security in the great metropolitical centres but above all in the chief centre at Rome, by those who came thither from all quarters. If at any time a heretical bishop, or a bishop who was ready to communicate with heretics, should occupy the see of a great centre like

Rome, as actually happened in regard to the Roman chair in the case of Felix II, (a.d. 356) for some time after his consecration, and again in the case of Liberius for some time after his return to Rome from exile, the orthodox nucleus of the local church would be lacking, and the mere conflux of Christians from all quarters would have very little, if any, effect in keeping the faith pure. But given a Catholic local church, its grasp of the faith would be strengthened and its conception of it would be enriched by the presence of representatives of distant churches, holding substantially the same faith, but doing sometimes fuller justice to particular aspects of it, which might be more familiar to the distant churches, in which they had been nurtured, than to the great metropolitical church in which they were sojourning. Thus we can see how at Rome and other great centres, but pre-eminently at Rome, local exaggeration or one-sidedness would be warded off by the fact that all churches were present there in the persons of those of their members who had occasion to resort thither. On the other hand, the faithful everywhere (ubique) scattered over the world could not preserve the apostolic tradition in the Roman Church (in qua). They could preserve it in their own churches. But S. Irenaeus says that they preserved it in the Roman Church ; and that they could only do by resorting thither. Thus it will be seen that, on the interpretation which I am trying to justify, all the expressions in the sentence fit in with each other, and throw light on each other.​
 
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laternonjuror

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There have been many councils long before the Great Schism. Why do you say there have only been "7 Ecumenical Councils"?

Because only seven ecumenical councils have been freely affirmed to by the Universal Church of God.!
Trent is a latin, or Roman Council, . Even so! The latin Councils of the West, which are claimed as Ecumenical to Rome are not,at least to traditionalists, they were simply the Church in the west trying to put a hold on the papacie's imperial moves. They sacked three popes and one fled. They passed legislation imprisoning one and legislated that the Council was superior to the Bishop of Rome!! A hundred or so years later one of your ,'saints,' S.Thomas More,just before he was executed actually wrote to his accuser telling him that,"as for general councils assembled lawfully.....the authority thereof ought to be taken for undoutable, or else there is nothing , no certainty.....For albeit that I have for mine own part such opinion of the pope's primacy as I have shown you, yet never thought I the pope above the general council. (History Magazine. Feb. 1968 pg,47. Denys Hay!)
 
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laternonjuror

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Source for Corinth not having a bishop?

I know it's okay for Rome to give advice to another Bishop's see. It's because Peter is over other bishops. I thank you for providing a source documenting this. However, it is unecessary, given that Clement's letter to Corinth at a much earlier date already establishes it.

Rubbish! Forgive me, but!! You have signally failed to make your point about papal jurisdiction, there's nothing I can find in Gospel, Scripture,or Tradition ,what you are doing is relying on your own, private interpretation , which is illegal for Catholics. Mind you, I don't complain to much, because others will read and see a different Catholic Message being put, not from yesterday, but antiquity!
 
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