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Do Calvinists recognize personal spiritual experience?

sarahr0se

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I am a new Christian trying to sort out my beliefs and find a church.

I believe that the bible is true and does not contain error. I also believe that people can have spiritual experiences. I believe in God in large part because of my own experience of God. I was brought up atheist so without this subjective, experiential dimension I don’t think I would ever have come to faith. The bible would just be another book.

Is this even faith? Paul said faith is believing in things not seen. I haven't seen God but I've felt Him. I can feel His Spirit inside me guiding and sustaining me.

I am aware of the possibility of deception, and I've seen some of what can happen when people rely too much on experience. Still, I seem to be constituted in such a way that experiences are important and without that I'm not sure what would be left.

But I don’t think Calvinism recognizes any personal spiritual experiences as valid except for insight from scripture, or am I wrong about this?

Thank you for any answers

--Sarah
 

mlqurgw

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I am a new Christian trying to sort out my beliefs and find a church.

I believe that the bible is true and does not contain error. I also believe that people can have spiritual experiences. I believe in God in large part because of my own experience of God. I was brought up atheist so without this subjective, experiential dimension I don’t think I would ever have come to faith. The bible would just be another book.

Is this even faith? Paul said faith is believing in things not seen. I haven't seen God but I've felt Him. I can feel His Spirit inside me guiding and sustaining me.

I am aware of the possibility of deception, and I've seen some of what can happen when people rely too much on experience. Still, I seem to be constituted in such a way that experiences are important and without that I'm not sure what would be left.

But I don’t think Calvinism recognizes any personal spiritual experiences as valid except for insight from scripture, or am I wrong about this?

Thank you for any answers

--Sarah
I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone but myself. There is no denying that believers experience Christ but we are not to rely on experience. We do not guage our faith by our experience but by the Word of God. Peter gives us an outstanding example of what I mean in 2Pet. 1:17-21. He tells us that there is something more sure and to be believed than even what he saw and heard on the mount of transfiguration; The Word of God in the Scriptures.
 
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McWilliams

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When our heart is regenerated the Holy Spirit comes to live in us and our nature changes. We become hungry and thirst for truth, begin to read scripture and to live according to our God's word! In reading the book of 1 John you will see how you measure up according to John's statement that applies to those who believe and will yearn to please the Lord! All of this can bring joy and contentment even in the midst of difficult circumstances! God is faithful and loves His own and honors faith even the size of a mustard seed! We at times feel we have little faith of our own but we know that He is to be trusted! This is comforting to know and it also encourages our heart to strive to be closer to Him, attend services regularly at a doctrinally sound church and to become discerning about our reading, entertainment and life style, that our life will be pleasing to HIm! Our very purpose for all things is to bring glory to Him, not for what we can get for ourself, but to grow in humility, knowledge of the word and grace! The more we read HIs word and seek His guidance the more He is glorified and the more effective we are as Christians! Finding a good church where the Word is preached without compromise can be a challenge but is so important! Choose a church because of how the preaching compares to scripture, and how their worship brings glory to God, not by how entertaining it is or even by how friendly the people are! As you continue to grow you will also see the changes in the desires of your heart and that is such a blessing and encouragement! Seek a mentor that is sound and well grounded in the faith and know the Word of God and lives by it! Post questions here and many will be so happy to respond and offer encouragement and prayer for you!
Blessings on your walk with Him!
Soli deo gloria!!
 
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Iosias

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But I don’t think Calvinism recognizes any personal spiritual experiences as valid except for insight from scripture, or am I wrong about this?

Reformed theology would teach that true conversion is one that experiences the law of God upon the heart convicting of sin. Our walk is to be one of an experience of communion with God.

I suppose it depends on how you are using the word "experience".

Question 1: What must a man do, that he may come into God’s favor, and be saved?

For answer to this question, some grounds must be laid down before hand. The first is this: that we must consider and remember, how 1. by what means God brings any man to salvation. For look how God saves others, so that he who does not know how to be saved, must use the means whereby God saves them.


In the work effecting of man salvation ordinarily there are two special actions of God: the giving of the first grace, and after that, the giving of the second. The former of these two works has 10 actions.


1. God gives man the outward means of salvation, especially the ministry of the word: and with it, he sent some outward and inward cross, to break and subdue the stubbornness of our nature, that it may be made it pliable to the will of God. This we may see an example of the jailer, Acts 16. And of the Jews that were converted at Peter’s Sermon, Acts 2.


2. This done, God brings the mind of man to consideration of law, and therein generally to see what is good, and what is evil, what is sin, and what is not sin.


3. Upon a serious consideration of the law, he makes a man particularly to see and know his own peculiar and proper sins, whereby he offends God.


4. Upon the site of sin he strikes the heart with legal fear, whereby when a man sees his sin he makes and to fear punishment and hell, into despair of salvation, in regard of anything in Him.


Now these four actions, are indeed no fruits of grace, for Reprobate may go thus far; but their only works of Preparation going before grace; the other actions which follow, are affects of grace.


5. The fifth action of grace therefore is, to stir up the mind to serious consideration of the promise of salvation propounded and published in the Gospel.


6. After this the sixth is, the kindle of the heart, some sense of the sparks of faith, that is, a will and desire to believe, in grace to strive against doubting and despair. Now in the same instant, when God begins to kindling the heart, any sparks of faith, then also He justifies the sinner, and with this begins the work of sanctification.


7. Then, so soon as faith is put it into the heart, there is presently a combat: for a fight of doubting, despair, and distrust. And in this combat, Faith shows itself, by fervent, constant, and earnest invocation for pardon: and after invocation follows the strength and prevailing of this desire.


8. Furthermore, God in mercy quite unsettles the conscience, as touching the salvation of the soul, and the promise of life, whereupon it rests and stays in itself.


9. Next after this settled assurance, and persuasion of mercy, falls a storing up of the heart to evangelical sorrow, according to God, that is, a grief for sin, because it is sin, and because God is offended: And then the Lord works repentance, whereby the sanctified heart turns itself on him. And though this repentance be one of the last in order, yet it didn’t itself first: as when a candle is brought into our room, we first see the light before we see the candle, and that the candle must needs be before the light can be.


10. Lastly, God gives a man grace to endeavor to obey his commandments by new obedience. And by these degrees doth the Lord give the first grace.


The second work of God tending to salvation is the giving of the second grace, which is nothing itself, but the continuance of the first grace given. For look as by creation, God gave a being to man and all other creatures, and then by his providence continued the same being which was as it were a second creation; so in bringing a man to salvation, God gives the first grace: for example, to believe and repent; and then in mercy gives the second, to preserve and continue in faith and repentance to the end. And this, if we regard man in himself, is very necessary. For as fire, without supply of matter where it is fed and contained, would soon go out, so, unless God of His goodness should follow His children, and by new and daily supplies continue His first grace in them, they would undoubtedly lose the same, and finally fall away.


The second ground for the answer of this Question is taken from some special places in Scripture, where the same is moved and resolved. The men that were at Peter’s Sermon, being touched with the sense of their own misery, upon the doctrine which had been delivered, as the Holy Ghost saith, were pricked in their hearts, and cried out one to another, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Peter moved by the Sprit of God, answers them, “Repent, and be baptized for the remission of your sins.” The like was the case of the jailor; who after that stubbornness of his heart was beaten down, by fear of the departure of the prisoners, he came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas and moved this question to them, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” to they gave the answer “Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shall be saved, and thine household.” The young man in the Gospel comes to Christ and asks him, “What shall I do to be saved?” Christ answers him “Keep the Commandments.” When he replied that he had kept them from his youth, Christ tells him, that he must go yet further, and sell all that he hath and give to the poor. And John tells the Scribes and Pharisees, who came unto his Baptism, and confessed his sins, That if they would flee from the wrath to come, they must repent and “bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.”


From these places then, I frame this answer to the Question in hand: the man that would stand in the favor of God and be saved must do four things:


first, humble himself before God;
secondly, believe in Christ;
thirdly, repent of his sins;
fourthly, perform new obedience to God.
 
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intricatic

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I'd say, most definitely. The idea that one is brought to life in Christ from death in sin has a ton of practical implication to a believer. When you read through the Bible and you see things like how Abraham walked and talked with God, and how the Spirit gave testimony to men through the apostles in The Acts, it's hard not to attribute that to some personal experience. However, the experience is never the immediate goal; rather, the immediate goal is what's accomplished through the experience.

To look at it another way, when you're dead in trespasses and sin, you cannot read the gospel and answer the call without God moving you to do so. As you put it, "The bible would just be another book."

However, when you say; " But I don’t think Calvinism recognizes any personal spiritual experiences as valid except for insight from scripture, or am I wrong about this?", I'm not certain what you mean. Insight from scripture is always a good and extremely beneficial thing, but our God is the God of the universe, and all that is, from beginning to end, and beyond.
 
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DeaconDean

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As I read this, I think the Op is think along the lines of the experience that Jacob had wrestling with the angel.

And I would say yes, you can and should have "spiritual experiences."

Many times I have opened the doors to my church and have the Spirit come rushing out on me to th point that I have said "surely the presence of the Lord is here."

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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sarahr0se

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Well, by “spiritual experiences” I meant a whole range of things. Some of them you have described in your replies. I didn’t mean to put words in anyone’s mouth when I asked the question but I was under the impression that Calvinists do not take an experiential approach in the way that charismatics or mystics do. So I wanted to know what experiences you all *do* recognize and value since that is important to me.

Iosias, Thank you for that explanation of repentance and conversion. Is that a quote from one of the Calvinist catechisms?

Thank you all very much for your answers. I have ordered a book, “The Doctrines of Grace” in order to find out more about Calvinism and I’ll continue to ask questions.
 
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intricatic

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Well, by “spiritual experiences” I meant a whole range of things. Some of them you have described in your replies. I didn’t mean to put words in anyone’s mouth when I asked the question but I was under the impression that Calvinists do not take an experiential approach in the way that charismatics or mystics do. So I wanted to know what experiences you all *do* recognize and value since that is important to me.

Iosias, Thank you for that explanation of repentance and conversion. Is that a quote from one of the Calvinist catechisms?

Thank you all very much for your answers. I have ordered a book, “The Doctrines of Grace” in order to find out more about Calvinism and I’ll continue to ask questions.
That's a tricky thing to understand, and I'd wager that all Calvinists hold a different understanding of what you're asking. From my own understanding, the mystical approach to spirituality is a purely existential thing - sort of like being moved by a beautiful orchestra, or a hallway adorned by beautiful artwork, but not necessarily associated with any solid thing that can be quantified.

How I would address the question isn't by giving a mystical answer, but by saying that God's sanctifying grace is a very real thing that can be defined in concise words, but the experience itself is hard for anyone but those who have experienced it to understand (which is a slightly existential statement, in itself).

The charismatics hold the view that baptism of the Holy Spirit will result in a change, or conversion of something in man's nature, the most popularized view is the gift of tongues as a sign of salvation. Calvinists don't necessarily hold to that, although I know a few who do. I would say it's incorrect and scripturally unsound - many people I know who've gone down the same lines end up questioning whether they're saved or not, and put on "stage acts" so as not to raise any suspicion about the legitimacy of their gifting. Speaking personally, I don't believe the gifts of the spirit have ceased to be given to believers - including prophecy, tongues, healing, etc.., but I would say that all these things carry with them only as much worth as it magnifies God's sovereign grace. It can have no such magnification if it has no practical application.

Inasmuch as spiritual experiences go, I believe scripture is packed soundly with people who have had a variety of spiritual experiences, and such cannot be denied without secularizing scripture to the point where any supernatural occurrence is viewed as illegitimate and culturally produced. I also don't think it's wise to limit what God can and cannot do with and through His creation, so I won't be one to say that the only definition "spiritual experience" can have must absolutely come from the Bible. Each believer is different, but each believer is called absolutely by the same standard; the gospel, and God's grace.
 
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intricatic

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mlqurgw

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Most folks have the idea that Satan wants you to forsake going to church and to go back to doing worldly things. That he tempts you to commits sins such as adultery and theft and such like. That simply isn't the truth. Satan is the most subtle of deceivers. He appears as an angel of light and nothing serves his wicked designs more than a person going to church and relying on the practice of religion instead of Christ. He wants you to make a proffession of faith and be baptized. He wants you to give and work in the church just so long as you don't ever rely totally on Christ alone. He wants you to read your Bible and pray just not to see in Christ all you need and all your acceptance with God. He isn't leading folks into great heresies but subtle ones that decieve without ever appearing to. He decieves you into adding some little something that you do to what Christ has done.
 
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GrinningDwarf

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But I don’t think Calvinism recognizes any personal spiritual experiences as valid except for insight from scripture, or am I wrong about this?

Y'know...I've met some Calvinists whose life goal seems to be goal sucking all the joy and happiness out of life, but I think they've got an unbalanced perspective.

Personal experience is never quite on the same level as Scripture, because, of course, "the heart is wicked and deceiptful above all things; who can know it?" But to eliminate any consideration of personal experience is just as wrong as putting personal experiance on the same level as Scripture, or even above that of Scripture, as some people do.

You might be interested in John Piper's ministry. He's a Reformed Baptist pastor, and one of his most widely read books is Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist. Are you familiar with the Westminster Shorter Catechism? It's one of the bedrocks of Reformed theology, and question #1 asks "What is man's primary purpose?" The answer is "To glorify God and enjoy Him forever." Piper makes the case that a more accurate answer would be "To glorify God by enjoying Him forever."
 
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intricatic

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Most folks have the idea that Satan wants you to forsake going to church and to go back to doing worldly things. That he tempts you to commits sins such as adultery and theft and such like. That simply isn't the truth. Satan is the most subtle of deceivers. He appears as an angel of light and nothing serves his wicked designs more than a person going to church and relying on the practice of religion instead of Christ. He wants you to make a proffession of faith and be baptized. He wants you to give and work in the church just so long as you don't ever rely totally on Christ alone. He wants you to read your Bible and pray just not to see in Christ all you need and all your acceptance with God. He isn't leading folks into great heresies but subtle ones that decieve without ever appearing to. He decieves you into adding some little something that you do to what Christ has done.
The distractions of the world are a great way to create new qualifications to peg onto salvation.
 
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AndOne

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Sarah -

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "spiritual experiences" - but this is one Calvinist who wholeheartidly believes that the gifts of the spirit did not cease at the closing of canon and that they should be sought after and used within the church today.

Having said that - there is a lot of debate between us Calvinists on this topic - and as you have already seen - many do not share this belief with me. But there are Calvinists who do believe it. A couple of books for you to check out in regards to this are:

"The Beginner's Guide To The Spiritual Gifts" by Sam Storms

"Confessions of a Charismatic Calvinist" by Sam Storms

"Systematic Theology" by Wayne Grudem (this is a massive book but he devotes quite a few chapters to a defence of the gifts from a calvinist perspective)

You can also go to John Piper's website www.desiringgod.com and find many sermons and teaching in mp3 in defense of the gifts by Storms, Grudem, and Piper himself.

Also - Soveriegn Grace Ministries is an entire calvinistic group of churches/denomination that encourages and practices the gifts from a scriptural perspective. C. J Manhaney and Joshua Harris are a couple of big names from that bunch.
 
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sarahr0se

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Thanks again for all your replies. It is very helpful.

Grinning Dwarf, you said

“
But to eliminate any consideration of personal experience is just as wrong as putting personal experiance on the same level as Scripture, or even above that of Scripture, as some people do.”

That is just it. I’m looking for that balance and wondering how other people find it, especially in approaches that are more cautious than the non-denominational and charismatic churches. It looks like reformed folks are not as “dry” and intellectual as I thought, if there is room for enjoying God!

The John Piper book sounds great. I will order it.

Mlqurgw, are you saying that it is not a good idea to be baptized? I *think* I am relying only on Jesus. Baptism is a picture of dying and being raised in Christ. I know that some Presbyterians see it as actually conferring grace but I don’t think I believe that. Although I do wonder why Jesus saw it as important (Mtw 28:18, Mk 16:16) if it is a symbol.

I can see how church and all that goes along with it can distract people from Jesus. However, I hope it is possible to find a church community for friendship and bible study without that happening.

McWilliams, Thanks for posting that link. There is a huge amount of material at that site and a whole section of information for new Christians. Thanks.

--Sarah
 
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sarahr0se

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thank you so much for that information!

I meant a whole range of things by spiritual experiences.

Just feeling the love God has for me. Feeling His light shining into my heart. (I know that sounds vague). Feeling His presence, feeling Him ministering to me . I guess I could be deceived in these things and it could just be the enemy making me *think* God loves me when He doesn't really...

And the spiritual gifts as well, although I think they are sometimes used in Charismatic churches to manipulate people. I am more interested in people hearing God themselves and experiencing His presence themselves than the idea of designated prophets telling you they have a prophetic word for you.

--Sarah
 
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mlqurgw

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sarahrOse said:
Mlqurgw, are you saying that it is not a good idea to be baptized? I *think* I am relying only on Jesus. Baptism is a picture of dying and being raised in Christ. I know that some Presbyterians see it as actually conferring grace but I don’t think I believe that. Although I do wonder why Jesus saw it as important (Mtw 28:18, Mk 16:16) if it is a symbol.

I can see how church and all that goes along with it can distract people from Jesus. However, I hope it is possible to find a church community for friendship and bible study without that happening.
Not at all. By all means be baptized. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God. I wasn't saying that you shouldn't do any of those things but that many look to those things instead of Christ. My point was intended to be that religion is about things, truth is about a person, Christ Jesus the Lord. All of those things are good and proper when they are taken in the light of Christ. Nor do I mean that we have no emotional experiences, we do. We just don't put any faith in them for assurance or for proof. I apologize if I have caused you concern over my comments. :)
 
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sarahr0se

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Not at all. By all means be baptized. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God. I wasn't saying that you shouldn't do any of those things but that many look to those things instead of Christ. My point was intended to be that religion is about things, truth is about a person, Christ Jesus the Lord. All of those things are good and proper when they are taken in the light of Christ. Nor do I mean that we have no emotional experiences, we do. We just don't put any faith in them for assurance or for proof. I apologize if I have caused you concern over my comments. :)

I agree with this.
Also, the idea that it is OK to *have* emotional experiences just not take them as assurance makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks
--Sarah
 
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intricatic

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That is just it. I’m looking for that balance and wondering how other people find it, especially in approaches that are more cautious than the non-denominational and charismatic churches. It looks like reformed folks are not as “dry” and intellectual as I thought, if there is room for enjoying God!

Oh, many of us are "Dry and intellectual", but I personally don't see that as mutually exclusive from experience and living life. God is our joy, and I think that's something almost all Reformed peoples can agree on. :)
 
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