Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

sunlover1 said:

No to what?


Indeed.
They "did" what God had planned would take place.



Impossible.
God does not tempt man to sin.
He does however live outside of time.
He did indeed know they'd do that.
he did ordain Jesus' death.
He does work all things together for good,
for those who are the called, according to
His purposes.

IMO
Don't mean to sound like a know it all.
I only mean IN MY OPINION to all of the above.

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It just sounds to me like you haven't done the math. 2+2=4. If you keep thinking about these Scriptures you'll see it.

ChristIsSovereign said:

When we stop seeing God as tied to this universe, its laws, rules, etc.

God is entirely distinct from His creation. He doesn't reside in our realms of time, imagination, or in any theologian's mind. He is beyond. To comprehend the counsel of God would be to die instantaneously because God is infinite and we are not.

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Yes God is, it's called the, 'Aseity of God', or the utter independence of God. It's inextricably linked to God being holy, which literally means separate.

Tree of Life said:

Please reconcile 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1.

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I'd rather not, just to be on the safe side.

Given two choices, what would you really want to say: God is evil or Satan is evil?

This is a no brainer to me.

Any failing on my part to understand paradoxes is just that: a failing on my own part. Not God's. I don't have the capacity to understand it. But I DO know I'm in a good position for saying Satan is evil. And a pretty bad position for saying God is evil (ugh).

sunlover1 said:

oh my gosh, my post was goofed up
Please disregard.
i'm trying to get out the door
but keep being drawn to read
posts.
Sorry!
BBL

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No problem, catch you on the rebound, get out of here you got stuff to do.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

But what you claim is that a man cannot freely choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and accept the grace of God without being quickened from his "totally depraved" state. Calvinists believe that by the "Irresistible Grace" of God, a man is given life so as to have faith, thereby granting unconditional election, whether the individual would have chosen said salvation or not. You also do not believe that Christ died for the entire world, and that a saint must endure to the end to be saved; while "Perseverance of the Saints" states that all saints will endure to the end, it is dramatically different from the doctrine of "Once saved, Always saved."

Am I right or wrong?

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Let's just start from scratch.
Total depravity- every aspect of man is tainted by sin. All he does is in accordance with the sinful nature. His freewill is set on sin.

Unconditional election- God elects us based on nothing about us, it's entirely his will and plans.

Limited atonement- atonement is limited to the elect.

Irresistible Grace- God's Grace is irresistible, who could refuse?

Perseverance of the saints- by the Holy Spirit living inside all the elect they will persevere.

sunlover1 said:

Simple question

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What's a Calvinist?

Tree of Life said:

Please reconcile 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1.

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Satan is bound in this existence, I believe, therefore God can control him from a distance as he controls every one of us. Free will is real and an illusion simultaneously.

To be a bit more egg-headish, I think my whole approach is to view things in a phenomenal sense.. i.e. via my own perspective and experience. I can not NOT do this anyways. I'm just a human.

This is probably what rubs me the wrong way the most. Just because you have the word of God doesn't give you license to jump out of this shell. You still must live day by day from your own senses and perspective. None of us are God. Trying to figure it out... to borrow a dirty British word.. is sheer wankery. Intellectual wankery. And it does nothing to build the body or bring others to Christ either.

For Lutherans this is an area that our Calvinist brethren get seriously wrong. Here's a statement from Martin Luther's Heidelberg Disputation,

"That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the invisible things of God as though they were clearly perceptible in those things which have actually happened (Rom. 1:20; cf. 1 Cor 1:21-25).

This is apparent in the example of those who were theologians and still were called fools by the Apostle in Rom. 1:22. Furthermore, the invisible things of God are virtue, godliness, wisdom, justice, goodness, and so forth. The recognition of all these things does not make one worthy or wise." - Heidelberg Disputation, 19

"He deserves to be called a theologian, however, who comprehends the visible and manifest things of God seen through suffering and the cross.

The manifest and visible things of God are placed in opposition to the invisible, namely, his human nature, weakness, foolishness. The Apostle in 1 Corinthians 1:25 calls them the weakness and folly of God. Because men misused the knowledge of God through works, God wished again to be recognized in suffering, and to condemn wisdom concerning invisible things by means of wisdom concerning visible things, so that those who did not honor God as manifested in his works should honor him as he is hidden in his suffering (absconditum in passionibus). As the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 1:21, For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. Now it is not sufficient for anyone, and it does him no good to recognize God in his glory and majesty, unless he recognizes him in the humility and shame of the cross. Thus God destroys the wisdom of the wise, as Isa. 45:15 says, Truly art a God who hides thyself.

So, also, in John 14:8, where Philip spoke according to the theology of glory: Show us the Father. Christ forthwith set aside his flighty thought about seeing God elsewhere and led him to himself, saying, Philip, he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9). For this reason true theology and recognition of God are in the crucified Christ, as it is also stated in John 10 (John 14:6) No one comes to the Father, but by me. I am the door (John 10:9), and so forth." - ibid. 20

By placing the predestination of the elect into the hidden, inscrutable, sovereign will of God--as a matter of His glory--it denies the source of our salvation coming not from the inscrutable, but rather the revealed will, activity, and grace of God in the Crucified and Risen Lord Jesus Christ. Our election is not by some inscrutable picking and choosing of who will and won't be saved, hidden behind the veil of God's divine glory and sovereignty; it is instead known by the revealed will, kindness, and grace of God through Jesus Christ, and the Means of God's grace in Word and Sacrament--that we have been predestined and elected to salvation is found in the preaching of the Gospel and in Holy Baptism. I belong to Christ because I am baptized, indeed I can know on account of my baptism that I belong to Christ and that God chose me from before the foundation of the world, not on account of any merit on my part, or mere foreknowledge, but from grace and by grace He who descends Himself into the weakness and humiliation of human flesh, and dwells in the abyss of human suffering, sin, and death, and the shame and foolishness of the cross is, indeed, for me. The unconditional election of God is not buried behind the hidden things of His glory, but in the revealed things of the cross.

That the human will does not merit anything, on account of sin, and is overcome by grace through the Gospel, and the kindness of God in Jesus--does not mean God has foreordained every act, whether good or evil; or that there is no human agency; but rather it means that human agency is held under the bondage of sin and death and needs rescue. The intervention of love, kindness; an invasion of grace to lift and bring forth a dead corpse to life. The word of Christ speaks forth, "Lazarus, come forth" and "Little girl, arise", and this word accomplishes its task, for God's word never returns void (Isaiah 55:11).

Salvation is monergistic, not out of the inscrutable and hidden will of God; but in the revealed will of God, in His grace for the world, revealed in Jesus Christ, given to us through the Means of Grace: Word and Sacrament.

God ordains our salvation, willing it, not by an indiscriminate and inscrutable choice; but through the death and resurrection of His Son by which He condescends and encounters this fallen, broken, and sinful world with His love, in grace, in order to redeem, rescue, renew, and heal it.

-CryptoLutheran

Does God will you to sin
I don't think God wants anyone to sin.....He Hates Sin.
ronandcarol

Tree of Life said:

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin and use it for his good purposes? Yes. This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

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You are using vocabulary nijutsu to attempt to explain away your notion that God does, from your perspective, will (or decree, as you like to say) that man sins. In essence, you accuse God of "decreeing" sin and somehow attempt to pass this off as Him not willing it.

But how can you say that God does not want people to sin, thereby commanding that we not sin, and yet--in your theology--you purport that He simultaneously decrees that men act contrary to His will and commit sins?

If you mean that God would not violate the free will of sinful men in order to prevent His crucifixion, then I am in agreement with you. But if you mean that God in no way willed that these same sinful men repent and, in fact, that He willed that they would not repent but rather act sinfully, then I cannot agree with you, and I would consider this notion blasphemous, since it is a fact that the Lord Jesus did not come to destroy men's lives, but to same them; moreover, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; and, He does not delight in the death of a sinner; lastly, God wills that all men be saved, not wishing any to perish.

Now, if people with a darkened understanding would like to interpret the words, "world", "all men", etc as they pertain to the aforementioned Scriptures speaking of God's desire to save us, and say that they speak of only those whom God willed to save, i.e. the elect, then this is another discussion. But piety and reason, and the Holy Spirit, contradict this horrible assertion that they make, since--first of all--they blatantly distort the meaning of Scripture to fit their own faulty presumptions. Secondly, such an assertion is false because, in order for God to truly be just, He must extend the same opportunity to repent, believe, and be saved to all men, not just those whom He elected. And, further, it is a flawed understanding to say that God's election, predestination, justification, and glorification was not based on His foreknowledge of those whom He called; more than this, it is impious to accuse God of arbitrarily saving some and condemning others without regard for man's free will.

delete

sunlover1 said:

Simple question

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There's nothing simple about it when you consider the foreknowledge and omniscience of God and that God willed Himself to become the sacrifice and pardon for our sins. Did Christ not will to become the sacrifice for our sins from all eternity before the foundation of the world? There's nothing simple about the question, as all orthodox Christians believe in the omniscience of God and have a doctrine of election and predestination.

ViaCrucis said:

Salvation is monergistic, not out of the inscrutable and hidden will of God; but in the revealed will of God, in His grace for the world, revealed in Jesus Christ, given to us through the Means of Grace: Word and Sacrament.

God ordains our salvation, willing it, not by an indiscriminate and inscrutable choice; but through the death and resurrection of His Son by which He condescends and encounters this fallen, broken, and sinful world with His love, in grace, in order to redeem, rescue, renew, and heal it.

-CryptoLutheran

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I was with you until you said that salvation is monergistic.

Now, for you to say that what distinguishes you from Calvinists is simply that you say salvation was according to God's revealed will rather than His hidden will, I cannot understand how this is relevant.

This discussion is centered on the disputation of whether or not God wills man to sin. What is your answer to this question?

With regards to salvation, all I can gather from what you said is this: God saves us by His grace. Okay, Amen to that. That's always been true. No one disputes this.

For you to say that God ordains our salvation, willing it, you are not saying something that contradicts Calvinists. They say this too, as far as I understand.

The issue I have with both your view and Calvinist theology is the idea of monergism. And I have heard from some reformed believers that one of their issues with synergism is that they believe that if they accept this to be the truth, then they will forfeit the fullness of God's glory and attribute some of it to man. This could not be further from the truth!

Who convicts us of our sin? The Holy Spirit. Who repents? Not the Holy Spirit, but man. How is a man capable of repenting? Through God's grace if that man desire to repent. Does his repentance entitle him to salvation? Of course not. Why not? Salvation is not earned, since it is by grace through faith. Thus, let the sinner acknowledge his sin by the grace of God. Let the sinner repent by the grace of God. Let the sinner have faith in Jesus Christ by the grace of God. Let him live righteously by the grace of God. Let the him be saved by the grace of God. But do not deprive him of his free will and do not say that he had nothing to do with his own salvation. Or else, what sense does it make for God to issue commandments, or for the Apostles to urge men to repent and believe and save themselves (Read St Peter's sermon in Acts 2)?

We never attribute a man's salvation to his own works or will, for how can man save himself? But if God is the Savior and the Redeemer and He offers man salvation and eternal life in Christ Jesus, we speak piously if we say that man is capable of repentance, faith, and righteous works. We speak piously if we say that these things are only possible with God's grace. And we speak piously and truthfully if we say that if these things are so, then we cannot assert that salvation is monergistic but rather synergistic.

If salvation were monergistic, then God is unjust and unrighteous, since He saves some and condemns others according to His arbitrary will, regarding nothing to be of any import on the part of His creation. And if this is the case, then all men everywhere ought to cry out with indignation to God and say, "Why, if you have deemed us all as sinners worthy of hell, unrighteous and ungodly--why did you not will for us all to be saved? For, if in truth, you are no respector of persons, then you have acted contrary to your nature by arbitrarily choosing to save others and not willing that we be saved also!"

HwtChirino said:

You are using vocabulary nijutsu to attempt to explain away your notion that God does, from your perspective, will (or decree, as you like to say) that man sins. In essence, you accuse God of "decreeing" sin and somehow attempt to pass this off as Him not willing it.

But how can you say that God does not want people to sin, thereby commanding that we not sin, and yet--in your theology--you purport that He simultaneously decrees that men act contrary to His will and commit sins?

If you mean that God would not violate the free will of sinful men in order to prevent His crucifixion, then I am in agreement with you. But if you mean that God in no way willed that these same sinful men repent and, in fact, that He willed that they would not repent but rather act sinfully, then I cannot agree with you, and I would consider this notion blasphemous, since it is a fact that the Lord Jesus did not come to destroy men's lives, but to same them; moreover, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; and, He does not delight in the death of a sinner; lastly, God wills that all men be saved, not wishing any to perish.

Now, if people with a darkened understanding would like to interpret the words, "world", "all men", etc as they pertain to the aforementioned Scriptures speaking of God's desire to save us, and say that they speak of only those whom God willed to save, i.e. the elect, then this is another discussion. But piety and reason, and the Holy Spirit, contradict this horrible assertion that they make, since--first of all--they blatantly distort the meaning of Scripture to fit their own faulty presumptions. Secondly, such an assertion is false because, in order for God to truly be just, He must extend the same opportunity to repent, believe, and be saved to all men, not just those whom He elected.

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You had me till this point, God does offer the opportunity to every soul that comes into the world whether they knew the Law or the gospel or not:

And, further, it is a flawed understanding to say that God's election, predestination, justification, and glorification was not based on His foreknowledge of those whom He called; more than this, it is impious to accuse God of arbitrarily saving some and condemning others without regard for man's free will.

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I don't think God has a list of everyone that is going to be saved and that's that, actually, that is a bizarre teaching that has rambled among Calvinists down through the years. God's nature never changes, the righteousness that is required for salvation does not change, since even before the foundation of the world and forever in the future. What it means to be saved is beyond all doctrinal dispute, you are saved by the righteousness of God in Christ or you are lost forever. Now there are some who never heard the gospel and didn't know the Law, God judges them based on the thoughts and inclinations of the heart that only God can know, as God judges us all.

Now maybe that makes me a poor Protestant or a questionable Calvinist, so be it. But eternal security isn't based on anything other then the righteousness of God in Christ, and it's only eternal security when you hear it from the Holy Spirit himself.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Calvinists don't believe in free will.

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How completely and utterly false! And I will prove it through OLD Calvinist Confessions:

The Second Helvetic Confession
Date: 1566

Chapter IX: Of Free-Will, and So of Man’s Power and Ability [cf. CA XVIII]

1. [1.] We teach in this matter, which at all times has been the cause of many conflicts in the Church, that there is a triple condition or estate of man to be considered. What Man Was Before the Fall. First, what man was before his fall—to wit, upright and free, who might both continue in goodness and decline to evil; but he declined to evil, and has wrapped both himself and all mankind in sin and death, as has been shown before.

2. [2.] What Man Was After the Fall. Secondly, we are to consider what man was after his fall. His understanding, indeed, was not taken from him, neither was he deprived of his will, and altogether changed into a stone or stock. Nevertheless, these things are so altered in man that they are not able to do that now which they could do before his fall. For his understanding is darkened, and his will, which before was free, is now become servile will; for it serveth sin, not nilling, but willing 3.—for it called a will, and not a nill. Man Does Evil by His Own Free Will. Therefore as touching evil or sin, man does evil, not compelled either by God or the devil, but of his own accord; and in this respect he has a most free will.

[3.] But whereas we see that oftentimes the most evil deeds and counsels of man are hindered by God, that they can not attain their end, this does not take from man liberty in evil, but God by his power does prevent that which man otherwise purposed freely: as Joseph’s brethren did freely purpose to slay Joseph; but they were not able to do it, because it seemed otherwise good to God in his secret counsel (Gen 37:18ff.‡ [cf. Gen 45:5, 7‡; 50:20‡]).

4. [4.] Man Is Not Capable of Good Per Se. But, as touching goodness and virtues, man’s understanding does not of itself judge aright of heavenly things. For the evangelical and apostolical Scripture requires regeneration of every one of us that will be saved. Wherefore our first birth from Adam doth nothing profit us to salvation. Paul says, “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit,” etc. (1 Cor 2:14). The same Paul elsewhere denies that we are “sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves” (2 Cor 3:5; Cf. Rom 7:18†)

5. Now, it is evident that the mind or understanding is the guide of the will; and, seeing the guide is blind, it is easy to be seen how far the will can reach. Therefore man, not as yet regenerate, has no free-will to good, no strength to perform that which is good. The Lord says in the Gospel, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commiteth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). And Paul the Apostle says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7).

6. [5.] Furthermore, there is some understanding of earthly things remaining in man after his fall. Understanding of the Arts. For God has of mercy left him wit, though much differing from that which was in him before his fall. God commands us to garnish our wit, and therewithal he gives gifts and also the increase thereof. And it is a clear case that we can profit very little in all arts without the blessing of God. The Scripture, no doubt, refers all arts to God; yea, and the Gentiles also ascribe the beginnings of arts to the gods, as the authors thereof.

7. [6.] Of What Kind Are the Powers of the Regenerate, and in What Way Their Wills Are Free. Lastly, we are to consider whether the regenerate have free-will, and how far they have it. In regeneration the understanding is illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that it may understand both the mysteries and will of God. And the will itself is not only changed by the Spirit, but it is also endued with faculties, that, of its own accord, it may both will and do good (Rom 8:4). Unless we grant this, we shall deny Christian liberty, and bring in the bondage of the law. Besides, the prophet brings in God speaking thus: “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts” (Jer 31:33; Ezek 36:26-27). The Lord also says in the Gospel, “If the Son make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36). Paul also to the Philippians, “Unto you is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Phil 1:29; John 15:5†). And, again, “I am persuaded that he that began this good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6†). Also, “It is God that worketh in you the will and the deed” (Phil 2:13).

8. [7.] The Regenerate Work Not Only Passively but Actively. Where, nevertheless, we teach that there are two things to be observed—first, that the regenerate, in the choice and working of that which is good, do not only work passively, but actively; for they moved of God that themselves may do that which they do (Phil 2:12†). And Augustine does truly allege that saying that “God is said to be our helper (Ps 27:9†); but no man can be helped but he that does somewhat” (Augustine, Sermones 13.3; 156.11). The Manichaeans did bereave man of all action, and made him like a stone and a block.

9. The Free Will Is Weak in the Regenerate. Secondly, that in the regenerate there remains infirmity. For, seeing that sin dwells in us, and that the flesh in the regenerate strives against the Spirit, even to our lives’ end, they do not readily perform in every point that which they had purposed. These things are confirmed by the apostle (Rom 7:13-25; Gal 5:17).

10. Therefore, all free-will is weak by reason of the relics of the old Adam remaining in us so long as we live, and of the human corruption which so nearly cleaves to us. In the meanwhile, because the strength of the flesh and the relics of the old man are not of such great force that they can wholly quench the work of the Spirit, therefore the faithful are called free, yet so that they do acknowledge their infirmity, and glory no whit at all in their free-will. For that which St. Augustine does repeat so often out of the apostle ought always to be kept in mind by the faithful: “What hast thou that thou didst not receive? and if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not receive it?” (1 Cor 4:7†; cf. Augustine, Contra duas epistulas Pelagionorum ad Bonifatium 4.9.25; Sermones 13.3) Hitherto may be added that that comes not straightway to pass which we have purposed, for the events of things are in the hand of God. For which the cause Paul besought the Lord that he would prosper his journey (Rom 1:10). Wherefore, in this respect also, free-will is very weak.

11. [8.] In External Things There Is Liberty. But in outward things no man denies but that both the regenerate and the unregenerate have their free-will; for man hath this constitution common with other creatures (to whom he is not inferior) to will some things and to nill other things. So he may speak or keep silence, go out of his house or abide within. Although herein also God’s power is evermore to be marked, which brought to pass that Balaam could not go so far as he would (Num 24:13), and that Zacharias, coming out of the Temple, could not speak as he would have done (Luke 1:22).

12. [9.] Heresies. In this matter we condemn the Manichaeans, who deny that the beginning of evil unto man, being good, came from his free-will. We condemn also, the Pelagians, who affirm that an evil man has a free-will sufficiently to perform a good precept. Both these are confuted by the Scripture, which says to the former, “God made man upright” (Eccl 7:29†); and to the latter, “If the Son make you free, then ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36†).


The Belgic Confession

Date: 1561

Article 14: Of the Creation and Fall of Man, and His Incapacity to Perform What Is Truly Good
We believe that God created man out of the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7†; 3:19†; Eccl 12:7†), and made and formed him in his own image and likeness, good, righteous, and holy (Gen 1:26; Eccl 7:29; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10†), capable in all things to will agreeably to the will of God (Gen 1:31; Eph 4:24). But being in honor, he understood it not, neither knew his excellency (Ps 49:20; Isa 59:2), but willfully subjected himself to sin, and consequently to death and the curse, giving ear to the word of the devil (Gen 3:6, 17 [or Gen 3:16-19; Rom 5:12†). For the commandment of life, which he had received, he transgressed (Gen 1:3, 7); and by [his] sin separated himself from God, who was his true life (Isa 59:2), having corrupted his whole nature (Eph 4:18), whereby he made himself liable to corporal and spiritual death (Rom 5:12; Gen 2:17; 3:19; Eph 2:1†). And being thus become wicked, perverse, and corrupt in all his ways, he hath lost all his excellent gifts which he had received from God (Ps 94:11†; Rom 3:10; 8:6†), and only retained a few remains thereof (Acts 14:16-17; 17:27), which, however, are sufficient to leave man without excuse (Rom 1:20-21; Acts 17:27); for all the light which is in us is changed into darkness (Eph 5:8; Matt 6:23), as the Scriptures teach us, saying: The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not(John 1:5): where St. John calleth men darkness.

Therefore we reject all that is taught repugnant to this concerning the free will of man, since man is but a slave to sin (Isa 26:12; Ps 94:11; John 8:34; Rom 6:17; 7:5, 17); and has nothing of himself unless it is given him from heaven (John 3:27; Isa 26:12). For who may presume to boast that he of himself can do any good, since Christ saith, No man can come to me, except the [or my] Father which hath sent me draw him(John 3:27; 6:44, 65)? Who will glory in his own will, who understands that to be carnally minded is enmity against God(Rom 8:7)? Who can speak of his knowledge, since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God(1 Cor 2:14; Ps 94:11)? In short, who dare suggest any thought, since he knows that we are not sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves, but that our sufficiency is of God(2 Cor 3:5)? And therefore what the Apostle saith ought justly to be held sure and firm, that God worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure(Phil 2:13). For there is no will nor understanding, conformable to the divine will and understanding, but what Christ has wrought in man: which he teaches us when he saith, Without me ye can do nothing(John 15:5).

The Thirty-Nine Articles

Date: 1563

X. Of Free-Will
The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God (Rom 7:14; Gal 5:16-17):[56] Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God,[57] without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will,[58] and working with us, when we have that good will (Ps 59:10 [Vulgate, Ps 58:10]; Phil 2:13; John 6:44‡; 1 Cor 15:10‡).[59]

The Irish Articles of Religion.

A.D. 1615

OF THE FALL OF MAN, ORIGINAL SIN, AND THE STATE OF MAN BEFORE JUSTIFICATION.

22. By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death went over all men, forasmuch as all have sinned.

23. Original sin standeth not in the imitation of Adam (as the Pelagians dream), but is the fault and corruption of the nature of every person that naturally is engendered and propagated from Adam: whereby it cometh to pass that man is deprived of original righteousness, and by nature is bent unto sin. And therefore, in every person born into the world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation.

24. This corruption of nature doth remain even in those that are regenerated, whereby the flesh always lusteth against the spirit, and can not be made subject to the law of God. And howsoever, for Christ's sake, there be no condemnation to such as are regenerate and do believe, yet doth the Apostle acknowledge that in itself this concupiscence hath the nature of sin.

25. The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he can not turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God. Wherefore, we have no power to do good works, pleasing and acceptable unto God, without the grace of God preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us when we have that good will.

26. Works done before the grace of Christ and the inspiration of his Spirit are not pleasing unto God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ, neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School Authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea, rather, for that they are not done in such sort as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they are sinful.

27. All sins are not equal, but some far more heinous than others; yet the very least is of its own nature mortal, and, without God's mercy, maketh the offender liable unto everlasting damnation.

28. God is not the author of sin: howbeit, he doth not only permit, but also by his providence govern and order the same, guiding it in such sort by his infinite wisdom as it turneth to the manifestation of his own glory and to the good of his elect.

The Canons of the Synod of Dort

Date: 1619

The Third and Fourth Chapters, or Doctrinal Heads,
Namely, Concerning Man’s Corruption, and Conversion to God, Together with the Manner Thereof

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall
Man, in the beginning, being made according to God’s image, was adorned in his mind with true and saving knowledge of his Creator, and of things spiritual; in his will and heart with righteousness; in all his affections with purity; and so was in all his parts and faculties holy (Gen 1:26-27†). But he, by the devil’s instigation, and liberty of his own will, revolting from God, bereaved himself of these excellent gifts (Gen 3:1-7†), and contrariwise, in lieu of them, gat in his mind horrible darkness, vanity, and crookedness of judgment; in his heart and will, malice, rebellion, and obduration; and in all his affections, impurity (Eph 4:17-19†).

Article 2: The Spread of Corruption
And such as man after the fall, such children he begat; namely, a corrupt issue from a corrupt father (Job 14:4†; Ps 51:5†): this corruption being by the just judgment of God derived from Adam to all his posterity (Rom 5:12†) (Christ only excepted [Heb 4:15†]), and that not by imitation (as of old the Pelagians would have it), but by the propagation of nature with her infection.

Article 3: Man’s Total Inability
All men therefore are conceived in sin, and born the children of wrath, untoward to all good tending to salvation, forward to evil, dead in sins, slaves in sin (Eph 2:1, 3†; John 8:34†; Rom 6:16-17†), and neither will nor can (without grace of the Holy Ghost regenerating them [John 3:3-6†; Tit 3:5†]) set straight their own crooked nature, no nor so much as dispose themselves to the amending of it.

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Date: 1643-1649

Chapter IX: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; Jas 4:7†).

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13‡; Col 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27†).


So, what Calvinists do not believe in, are the Palagian and Semi-Palagian versions of "free will". I'll not quote the London Baptist Confession which is clear opposition to your view Mr. Baptist.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

They believe that God created some destined for hell and some destined for heaven. So, yes, ultimately.

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Wrong again, not all Calvinists hold to double predestination, if I am not mistaken, historically most hold to single predestination.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

But they're wrong according to the Bible.

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No, you're wrong according to the Bible, and your earliest confession.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Calvinists don't believe in free will.

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How completely and utterly false! And I will prove it through OLD Calvinist Confessions:

The Second Helvetic Confession
Date: 1566

Chapter IX: Of Free-Will, and So of Man’s Power and Ability [cf. CA XVIII]

1. [1.] We teach in this matter, which at all times has been the cause of many conflicts in the Church, that there is a triple condition or estate of man to be considered. What Man Was Before the Fall. First, what man was before his fall—to wit, upright and free, who might both continue in goodness and decline to evil; but he declined to evil, and has wrapped both himself and all mankind in sin and death, as has been shown before.

2. [2.] What Man Was After the Fall. Secondly, we are to consider what man was after his fall. His understanding, indeed, was not taken from him, neither was he deprived of his will, and altogether changed into a stone or stock. Nevertheless, these things are so altered in man that they are not able to do that now which they could do before his fall. For his understanding is darkened, and his will, which before was free, is now become servile will; for it serveth sin, not nilling, but willing 3.—for it called a will, and not a nill. Man Does Evil by His Own Free Will. Therefore as touching evil or sin, man does evil, not compelled either by God or the devil, but of his own accord; and in this respect he has a most free will.

[3.] But whereas we see that oftentimes the most evil deeds and counsels of man are hindered by God, that they can not attain their end, this does not take from man liberty in evil, but God by his power does prevent that which man otherwise purposed freely: as Joseph’s brethren did freely purpose to slay Joseph; but they were not able to do it, because it seemed otherwise good to God in his secret counsel (Gen 37:18ff.‡ [cf. Gen 45:5, 7‡; 50:20‡]).

4. [4.] Man Is Not Capable of Good Per Se. But, as touching goodness and virtues, man’s understanding does not of itself judge aright of heavenly things. For the evangelical and apostolical Scripture requires regeneration of every one of us that will be saved. Wherefore our first birth from Adam doth nothing profit us to salvation. Paul says, “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit,” etc. (1 Cor 2:14). The same Paul elsewhere denies that we are “sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves” (2 Cor 3:5; Cf. Rom 7:18†)

5. Now, it is evident that the mind or understanding is the guide of the will; and, seeing the guide is blind, it is easy to be seen how far the will can reach. Therefore man, not as yet regenerate, has no free-will to good, no strength to perform that which is good. The Lord says in the Gospel, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commiteth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). And Paul the Apostle says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7).

6. [5.] Furthermore, there is some understanding of earthly things remaining in man after his fall. Understanding of the Arts. For God has of mercy left him wit, though much differing from that which was in him before his fall. God commands us to garnish our wit, and therewithal he gives gifts and also the increase thereof. And it is a clear case that we can profit very little in all arts without the blessing of God. The Scripture, no doubt, refers all arts to God; yea, and the Gentiles also ascribe the beginnings of arts to the gods, as the authors thereof.

7. [6.] Of What Kind Are the Powers of the Regenerate, and in What Way Their Wills Are Free. Lastly, we are to consider whether the regenerate have free-will, and how far they have it. In regeneration the understanding is illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that it may understand both the mysteries and will of God. And the will itself is not only changed by the Spirit, but it is also endued with faculties, that, of its own accord, it may both will and do good (Rom 8:4). Unless we grant this, we shall deny Christian liberty, and bring in the bondage of the law. Besides, the prophet brings in God speaking thus: “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts” (Jer 31:33; Ezek 36:26-27). The Lord also says in the Gospel, “If the Son make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36). Paul also to the Philippians, “Unto you is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Phil 1:29; John 15:5†). And, again, “I am persuaded that he that began this good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6†). Also, “It is God that worketh in you the will and the deed” (Phil 2:13).

8. [7.] The Regenerate Work Not Only Passively but Actively. Where, nevertheless, we teach that there are two things to be observed—first, that the regenerate, in the choice and working of that which is good, do not only work passively, but actively; for they moved of God that themselves may do that which they do (Phil 2:12†). And Augustine does truly allege that saying that “God is said to be our helper (Ps 27:9†); but no man can be helped but he that does somewhat” (Augustine, Sermones 13.3; 156.11). The Manichaeans did bereave man of all action, and made him like a stone and a block.

9. The Free Will Is Weak in the Regenerate. Secondly, that in the regenerate there remains infirmity. For, seeing that sin dwells in us, and that the flesh in the regenerate strives against the Spirit, even to our lives’ end, they do not readily perform in every point that which they had purposed. These things are confirmed by the apostle (Rom 7:13-25; Gal 5:17).

10. Therefore, all free-will is weak by reason of the relics of the old Adam remaining in us so long as we live, and of the human corruption which so nearly cleaves to us. In the meanwhile, because the strength of the flesh and the relics of the old man are not of such great force that they can wholly quench the work of the Spirit, therefore the faithful are called free, yet so that they do acknowledge their infirmity, and glory no whit at all in their free-will. For that which St. Augustine does repeat so often out of the apostle ought always to be kept in mind by the faithful: “What hast thou that thou didst not receive? and if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not receive it?” (1 Cor 4:7†; cf. Augustine, Contra duas epistulas Pelagionorum ad Bonifatium 4.9.25; Sermones 13.3) Hitherto may be added that that comes not straightway to pass which we have purposed, for the events of things are in the hand of God. For which the cause Paul besought the Lord that he would prosper his journey (Rom 1:10). Wherefore, in this respect also, free-will is very weak.

11. [8.] In External Things There Is Liberty. But in outward things no man denies but that both the regenerate and the unregenerate have their free-will; for man hath this constitution common with other creatures (to whom he is not inferior) to will some things and to nill other things. So he may speak or keep silence, go out of his house or abide within. Although herein also God’s power is evermore to be marked, which brought to pass that Balaam could not go so far as he would (Num 24:13), and that Zacharias, coming out of the Temple, could not speak as he would have done (Luke 1:22).

12. [9.] Heresies. In this matter we condemn the Manichaeans, who deny that the beginning of evil unto man, being good, came from his free-will. We condemn also, the Pelagians, who affirm that an evil man has a free-will sufficiently to perform a good precept. Both these are confuted by the Scripture, which says to the former, “God made man upright” (Eccl 7:29†); and to the latter, “If the Son make you free, then ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36†).


The Belgic Confession

Date: 1561

Article 14: Of the Creation and Fall of Man, and His Incapacity to Perform What Is Truly Good
We believe that God created man out of the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7†; 3:19†; Eccl 12:7†), and made and formed him in his own image and likeness, good, righteous, and holy (Gen 1:26; Eccl 7:29; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10†), capable in all things to will agreeably to the will of God (Gen 1:31; Eph 4:24). But being in honor, he understood it not, neither knew his excellency (Ps 49:20; Isa 59:2), but willfully subjected himself to sin, and consequently to death and the curse, giving ear to the word of the devil (Gen 3:6, 17 [or Gen 3:16-19; Rom 5:12†). For the commandment of life, which he had received, he transgressed (Gen 1:3, 7); and by [his] sin separated himself from God, who was his true life (Isa 59:2), having corrupted his whole nature (Eph 4:18), whereby he made himself liable to corporal and spiritual death (Rom 5:12; Gen 2:17; 3:19; Eph 2:1†). And being thus become wicked, perverse, and corrupt in all his ways, he hath lost all his excellent gifts which he had received from God (Ps 94:11†; Rom 3:10; 8:6†), and only retained a few remains thereof (Acts 14:16-17; 17:27), which, however, are sufficient to leave man without excuse (Rom 1:20-21; Acts 17:27); for all the light which is in us is changed into darkness (Eph 5:8; Matt 6:23), as the Scriptures teach us, saying: The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not(John 1:5): where St. John calleth men darkness.

Therefore we reject all that is taught repugnant to this concerning the free will of man, since man is but a slave to sin (Isa 26:12; Ps 94:11; John 8:34; Rom 6:17; 7:5, 17); and has nothing of himself unless it is given him from heaven (John 3:27; Isa 26:12). For who may presume to boast that he of himself can do any good, since Christ saith, No man can come to me, except the [or my] Father which hath sent me draw him(John 3:27; 6:44, 65)? Who will glory in his own will, who understands that to be carnally minded is enmity against God(Rom 8:7)? Who can speak of his knowledge, since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God(1 Cor 2:14; Ps 94:11)? In short, who dare suggest any thought, since he knows that we are not sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves, but that our sufficiency is of God(2 Cor 3:5)? And therefore what the Apostle saith ought justly to be held sure and firm, that God worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure(Phil 2:13). For there is no will nor understanding, conformable to the divine will and understanding, but what Christ has wrought in man: which he teaches us when he saith, Without me ye can do nothing(John 15:5).

The Thirty-Nine Articles

Date: 1563

X. Of Free-Will
The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God (Rom 7:14; Gal 5:16-17):[56] Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God,[57] without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will,[58] and working with us, when we have that good will (Ps 59:10 [Vulgate, Ps 58:10]; Phil 2:13; John 6:44‡; 1 Cor 15:10‡).[59]

The Irish Articles of Religion.

A.D. 1615

OF THE FALL OF MAN, ORIGINAL SIN, AND THE STATE OF MAN BEFORE JUSTIFICATION.

22. By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death went over all men, forasmuch as all have sinned.

23. Original sin standeth not in the imitation of Adam (as the Pelagians dream), but is the fault and corruption of the nature of every person that naturally is engendered and propagated from Adam: whereby it cometh to pass that man is deprived of original righteousness, and by nature is bent unto sin. And therefore, in every person born into the world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation.

24. This corruption of nature doth remain even in those that are regenerated, whereby the flesh always lusteth against the spirit, and can not be made subject to the law of God. And howsoever, for Christ's sake, there be no condemnation to such as are regenerate and do believe, yet doth the Apostle acknowledge that in itself this concupiscence hath the nature of sin.

25. The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he can not turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God. Wherefore, we have no power to do good works, pleasing and acceptable unto God, without the grace of God preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us when we have that good will.

26. Works done before the grace of Christ and the inspiration of his Spirit are not pleasing unto God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ, neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School Authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea, rather, for that they are not done in such sort as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they are sinful.

27. All sins are not equal, but some far more heinous than others; yet the very least is of its own nature mortal, and, without God's mercy, maketh the offender liable unto everlasting damnation.

28. God is not the author of sin: howbeit, he doth not only permit, but also by his providence govern and order the same, guiding it in such sort by his infinite wisdom as it turneth to the manifestation of his own glory and to the good of his elect.

The Canons of the Synod of Dort

Date: 1619

The Third and Fourth Chapters, or Doctrinal Heads,
Namely, Concerning Man’s Corruption, and Conversion to God, Together with the Manner Thereof

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall
Man, in the beginning, being made according to God’s image, was adorned in his mind with true and saving knowledge of his Creator, and of things spiritual; in his will and heart with righteousness; in all his affections with purity; and so was in all his parts and faculties holy (Gen 1:26-27†). But he, by the devil’s instigation, and liberty of his own will, revolting from God, bereaved himself of these excellent gifts (Gen 3:1-7†), and contrariwise, in lieu of them, gat in his mind horrible darkness, vanity, and crookedness of judgment; in his heart and will, malice, rebellion, and obduration; and in all his affections, impurity (Eph 4:17-19†).

Article 2: The Spread of Corruption
And such as man after the fall, such children he begat; namely, a corrupt issue from a corrupt father (Job 14:4†; Ps 51:5†): this corruption being by the just judgment of God derived from Adam to all his posterity (Rom 5:12†) (Christ only excepted [Heb 4:15†]), and that not by imitation (as of old the Pelagians would have it), but by the propagation of nature with her infection.

Article 3: Man’s Total Inability
All men therefore are conceived in sin, and born the children of wrath, untoward to all good tending to salvation, forward to evil, dead in sins, slaves in sin (Eph 2:1, 3†; John 8:34†; Rom 6:16-17†), and neither will nor can (without grace of the Holy Ghost regenerating them [John 3:3-6†; Tit 3:5†]) set straight their own crooked nature, no nor so much as dispose themselves to the amending of it.

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Date: 1643-1649

Chapter IX: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; Jas 4:7†).

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13‡; Col 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27†).


So, what Calvinists do not believe in, are the Palagian and Semi-Palagian versions of "free will". I'll not quote the London Baptist Confession which is clear opposition to your view Mr. Baptist.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

They believe that God created some destined for hell and some destined for heaven. So, yes, ultimately.

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Wrong again, not all Calvinists hold to double predestination, if I am not mistaken, historically most hold to single predestination.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

But they're wrong according to the Bible.

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No, you're wrong according to the Bible, and your earliest confession.

Tree of Life said:

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin and use it for his good purposes? Yes. This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

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Did God ordain them to do it or allow them to do it?

Tree of Life said:

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin and use it for his good purposes? Yes. This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

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Did God ordain them to do it or allow them to do it?

ChristIsSovereign said:

It's an interesting issue. While I do not believe that God makes us sin, we sin of our own 'free will' (not true free will, mind you) but that God already knew everything we did, do, and would do. My personal opinion.

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If God is outside of time is it ever "will do" for God or is it all history for God, so it is want we did do in the future for God?

HwtChirino said:

I was with you until you said that salvation is monergistic.

Now, for you to say that what distinguishes you from Calvinists is simply that you say salvation was according to God's revealed will rather than His hidden will, I cannot understand how this is relevant.

This discussion is centered on the disputation of whether or not God wills man to sin. What is your answer to this question?

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I would like to chime in even though that was not intended for me. No! Absolutely not! Any other answer is blasphemous.

With regards to salvation, all I can gather from what you said is this: God saves us by His grace. Okay, Amen to that. That's always been true. No one disputes this.

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Agreed.

For you to say that God ordains our salvation, willing it, you are not saying something that contradicts Calvinists. They say this too, as far as I understand.

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Yes we do.

The issue I have with both your view and Calvinist theology is the idea of monergism. And I have heard from some reformed believers that one of their issues with synergism is that they believe that if they accept this to be the truth, then they will forfeit the fullness of God's glory and attribute some of it to man. This could not be further from the truth!

Who convicts us of our sin? The Holy Spirit. Who repents? Not the Holy Spirit, but man. How is a man capable of repenting? Through God's grace if that man desire to repent. Does his repentance entitle him to salvation? Of course not. Why not? Salvation is not earned, since it is by grace through faith. Thus, let the sinner acknowledge his sin by the grace of God. Let the sinner repent by the grace of God. Let the sinner have faith in Jesus Christ by the grace of God. Let him live righteously by the grace of God. Let the him be saved by the grace of God. But do not deprive him of his free will and do not say that he had nothing to do with his own salvation. Or else, what sense does it make for God to issue commandments, or for the Apostles to urge men to repent and believe and save themselves (Read St Peter's sermon in Acts 2)?

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I'm sorry, reading this I feel like Job telling his friends, 'who doesn't know this'? Who in Christendom would disagree with that?

We never attribute a man's salvation to his own works or will, for how can man save himself? But if God is the Savior and the Redeemer and He offers man salvation and eternal life in Christ Jesus, we speak piously if we say that man is capable of repentance, faith, and righteous works. We speak piously if we say that these things are only possible with God's grace. And we speak piously and truthfully if we say that if these things are so, then we cannot assert that salvation is monergistic but rather synergistic.

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We must bear fruit, our hearts must surrender to the will of God, there is a choice, a time of decision and that will decide our fate. Still it is by grace alone, faith alone and the authority of Scripture alone, because that's the witness of Christ and the Apostles. We cannot abandon the responsibility of the sinner to repent and receive the gospel, that option is simply not available.

If salvation were monergistic, then God is unjust and unrighteous, since He saves some and condemns others according to His arbitrary will, regarding nothing to be of any import on the part of His creation. And if this is the case, then all men everywhere ought to cry out with indignation to God and say, "Why, if you have deemed us all as sinners worthy of hell, unrighteous and ungodly--why did you not will for us all to be saved? For, if in truth, you are no respector of persons, then you have acted contrary to your nature by arbitrarily choosing to save others and not willing that we be saved also!"

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First of all, pardon me for butting in, I realize this isn't meant for me. Secondly, there is nothing in Calvinism that says God knew before the foundation of the world that everyone who will be saved is predetermined. It's been argued by some Calvinists based on the book of life have the names of everyone who will be saved. But Jesus said something about blotting out certain names. What I think happens is that every soul who comes into the world has his or her name in the book of life. If they, for whatever reason, become a child of perdition, their name is blotted out.

At any rate, that's my take on it. Maybe I'm not a very good Calvinist but that's the Scriptures as I understand them.

Grace and peace,
Mark