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Do Baptists appear to be intellectually challenged baboons...?

DeaconDean

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It's quite possible that they have already been acounted for in the fossil record, but that modern humans know them by a different name. For instance, the Behemoth sounds an awful lot like a Brontosaur.

I might would conceed that one, but there is no mistaking the unicorn.

And yet, as of this date, 1/12/11, not one single fossel, or live unicorn has ever been found.

If you admit one, the behemoth/levithan, then you must conceed the other.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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joshua41

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If a scientist or anyone else pushes Evolution over Creationism, I will call them on it. You may call it whatever you wish. I haven't called anyone a liar, that is your statement. When the Evolutionists say that evolution tops Creationism, is that calling the scripture a lie? Think about that for a moment.

In my opinion, (and I am not saying that you have done this)it is just unspeakable to deny facts in order to prove a certain theology right. It does appear that many people do this.

A believer in the Holy Bible cannot pick and choose what to believe from the scripture.
Once, anyone begins doing that, every thing in the scripture comes under question. The Old Testament is the foundation of the New Testament. It is one continuous storyline from the beginning of this world to the end of it.

I agree with that. I'm not for people taking what they want out of scripture. But, as people have argued in this thread, a figurative interpretation of the first few chapters of Genesis does not change the Good News of Christ.
 
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DeaconDean

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Fossils are a witness not only to the creative power of God, but they are also a witness to God’s judgment on sin. The fossil record has preserved the forms of plants and animals from an earlier period of earth’s history, and has shown us that there were many more different kinds of plants and animals than there are now, and that they were often larger and stronger than they are today. As much as the great variety of creatures we see on earth today shows the scope of God’s perfect creativity, they do not represent the full range of what He did in the six days of creation.

In this way, the fossil record is a witness which speaks of the design, variety and creative intelligence behind the creation. No evolutionist would suggest that any of the ruins found in various parts of the world are a result of time and chance, even though we know nothing of the people who built them. The design is evident, even if we cannot always tell what a particular design was used for. Yet when the evolutionist finds a living or fossilized creature, much more intricate in design and with obvious intelligent purpose, he supposes that the creature is a result of time and chance.

While no thinking person would ever insult the intelligence of society by suggesting that the Easter Island images are a result of time and chance erosion, evolutionists are insulting the academic world by claiming that the real living things after which the simpler images are fashioned resulted from time and chance. Even when the fossil record shows millions of different forms appearing in the wink of an eye, geologically speaking, and arriving on the scene fully formed and complete, the evolutionist insists that there could not be a Creator who formed these creatures rapidly. The fossils are a witness, and their witness is great, but their witness is not perfect, for men who want to find another understanding for them always will!

The witness of natural revelation, the “fingerprints” of God in creation, is not enough. The knowledge of salvation can never result from the witness of the natural world. This is why God has commanded us to take the revealed knowledge of God, found in the Bible, to all people. In the Scriptures we learn of God’s personal saving love for us in the work of Jesus Christ.

It is a shame that the rocks often cry out with a greater witness than many Christians. The missionary zeal of many Western Christians has not been great enough to overcome the fear that the natural man has to witness about the Savior. In Luke 19:40, we read that when the Pharisees complained about the witnessing of the disciples, Jesus told the Pharisees that if the disciples were silent, the very stones would cry out. It is important for us to realize that most of the witnessing activities of the disciples and Apostles was not considered acceptable behavior in polite society. And things really haven’t changed much today.

The argument that witnessing for Christ is not done in polite society today has probably stopped more Christian witnessing than all the persecution which is going on today in the world. As a result, the stones themselves, in the form of fossils, often offer more of a witness to the creativity and judgment of God for sin than many modern followers of Christ do. We must remember, however, that the saving message of God’s love in the Gospel is not evident in the fossilsï‚ although most of the fossils were buried in the Flood, so Noah found grace in God’s eyes through his faith in God’s promised Savior.

In Habakkuk 2:9-11, we read about another witness of the stones. This passage talks about the stones, and also the rafters of a house, witnessing against someone who deals dishonestly. While these words appear, from the context, to be more figurative, there is a very real truth here. The stones themselves cry out against immorality, as indeed the entire creation groans under the burden of sin, waiting to be delivered (see Romans 8:18-21). And the fossils that resulted from creatures killed in the Flood are a witness of judgment against immorality, a fruit of unbelief. Why can evolutionists accept the Easter Island statutes as designed and made, even though we don’t know how they were erected, nor do we know who would do it, yet fail to accept God’s creative work or the worldwide Flood?

The answers to these questions are very simple. There is no philosophical cost to evolution in accepting the obvious in the case of the Easter Island statues. But the cost to the evolutionist in accepting the obvious Creator God, who judges personal sin, is the personal cost of admitting that one has sinned and is responsible for it. This is what the individual who chooses evolution hopes to avoid by explaining the creation as the product of time and chance. Evolution, then, is an alternate faith to creation which, as many evolutionists have pointed out, cannot be compromised with Biblical Christianity.

Our lesson from Scripture, then, is that just as we have more talents and abilities than rocks, God is expecting us to do that much more than the rocks do in witnessing to His creative work, His judgment of sin, and His grace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. He does not ask us to tell others what we do not know. What He asks us to tell others is in Acts 4:20 “...what we have seen and heard.” Every Christian has a firsthand knowledge of God’s love and grace in Christ in his life. And this witness of God’s personal care and love is the most powerful witness we have.

Let us resolve to witness better than the rocks, that do cry out with their own witness.

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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leothelioness

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I might would conceed that one, but there is no mistaking the unicorn.

And yet, as of this date, 1/12/11, not one single fossel, or live unicorn has ever been found.

If you admit one, the behemoth/levithan, then you must conceed the other.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Maybe it has been and we just don't know. Maybe God doesn't intend for it to be found.
 
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DeaconDean

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Maybe it has been and we just don't know.

So, scientists are withholding vital information?

Isn't that against what most here have been arguing that scientists don't do?

Wouldn't that make them liars?

Wouldn't that be a dlimish on them?

It isn't likely that a unicorn would be found, and then kept quiet.

The whole world would know it.

Maybe God doesn't intend for it to be found.

Yea, yea, yea.

Typical response.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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It deeply grieves me that some Christians today are still arguing against evolution by arguing that complex organism could not come into being by chance. After 150 years of teaching on evolution by hundreds of thousands of people, these Christians still do not realize that the strongest argument in favor of evolution is that complex organism could not come into being by chance—there must be a driving force. The discovery of a driving force in nature by Charles Darwin gave birth to the theory of evolution. That driving force is natural selection.

Natural selection works using exactly the same genetic mechanisms used in the breeding of cats and dogs. The only difference is in the force causing the selection. In the case of breeding cats and dogs, the force is the human breeder. In the case of natural selection, the force is nature. The creator of nature and its force is God.

The process of natural selection bringing about speciation has been observed in both the laboratory and in the field. Does this necessarily prove that man evolved from “lower” forms of life? No, it does not. However, the evidence from science, apart from religion, that man evolved from “lower” forms of life is massive.

A literal interpretation of every word in the Bible contradicts the conclusions drawn from science. Literary studies of Genesis, however, contradict a literal interpretation of Genesis. What, therefore, is the Christian to believe? That is up to each Christian to decide for himself, but what we share with others has consequences. How we share with others what we believe also has consequences, and these consequences need to be carefully and prayerfully considered.
 
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leothelioness

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So, scientists are withholding vital information?

Isn't that against what most here have been arguing that scientists don't do?

Wouldn't that make them liars?

Wouldn't that be a dlimish on them?

It isn't likely that a unicorn would be found, and then kept quiet.

The whole world would know it.



Yea, yea, yea.

Typical response.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Or maybe it's because unicorns never existed.

Look, we cannot know why something hasn't been found yet. Science is not infallible and God has His reasons for everything. I'm fairly certain that God doesn't intend for us to know everything, because if the Bible and all that is contained within it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there would be no need for faith, right?
 
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MichaelKelley

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I might would conceed that one, but there is no mistaking the unicorn.

And yet, as of this date, 1/12/11, not one single fossel, or live unicorn has ever been found.

If you admit one, the behemoth/levithan, then you must conceed the other.

All I have to say is things are not always as they seem. Transhumanism is creating "things" that have previously been relegated to the world of science-fiction. Yet, it has all been done before.

The Watchers
Tom Horn on Transhumanism, Part 1 of 8
 
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sealacamp

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It deeply grieves me that some Christians today are still arguing against evolution by arguing that complex organism could not come into being by chance.

And it deeply grieves me that you keep trying to find a way to throw God and His word in the proverbial trash can of history in lieu of Darwin's theory. Keep beating that drum and you will get a crowd of CINO's following you and that is all.

Sealacamp
 
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Hupomone10

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A literal interpretation of every word in the Bible contradicts the conclusions drawn from science. Literary studies of Genesis, however, contradict a literal interpretation of Genesis.
I read this quote and it struck me that a literal interpretation of every word in the theory of evolution contradicts the conclusions drawn from scripture. Literary studies of "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" contradict a literal interpretation of the book. :)

I hate to not be "creative", no pun intended; but does that still make sense when it's reversed?

I hope you see my point.

Origin of Species is a great literary work, as long as people see it for what it is and don't try to take it literally.

I'm always surprised when Christians dismiss the book that tells them how to live the Christian life as literary; more so when it is dismissed as such in favor of other books in fact being taken literally.

 
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Mikecpking

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I read this quote and it struck me that a literal interpretation of every word in the theory of evolution contradicts the conclusions drawn from scripture. Literary studies of "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" contradict a literal interpretation of the book. :)

I hate to not be "creative", no pun intended; but does that still make sense when it's reversed?

I hope you see my point.

Origin of Species is a great literary work, as long as people see it for what it is and don't try to take it literally.

I'm always surprised when Christians dismiss the book that tells them how to live the Christian life as literary; more so when it is dismissed as such in favor of other books in fact being taken literally.

So when Isiah writes about talking cedar trees in Isiah 14:8, are we to take this literally too?
 
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joshua41

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To say that something is figurative or literary doesn't mean that it is not inspired by God.

I don't think that anyone here arguing against a literal interpretation of parts of the Bible would say that the themes and messages behind Genesis are false.

I don't think that anyone here arguing against a literal interpretation of Genesis would question its authority. I haven't seen anybody argue this point at all.


I don't understand how you can label people as CINO, SeaCamp.

The whole Bible should be sacred, but it should not be a sacred cow.

I have had concerns about this topic for a long time. This is not because I am trying undermine the foundation that God laid for the world, or because I lack faith (but ofcourse, I do lack faith). The reason for my concerns is that I what I have observed to be true is different than what I thought the Bible was telling me.

I also find it quite ironc that people are quickly able to criticize those who disagree with them but are so slow to criticize those who agree with them but have incorrect proof of their beliefs. When will institutions that make a mockery of science (in other words, lie) be held accountable?

If you do believe in a literal interpretation, your biggest enemy is not the people questioning your beliefs. It is actually the people incorrectly ''proving" your beliefs.

Perhaps, these institutions are the first institutions that should be critiqued by people believing in a literal interpretation of scripture. I haven't seen anyone argue against their findings that agrees with a literal translation. This behavior is just reckless.

Quite frankly, some people have a genuine disagreement with how your perceive Genesis. However, people in your community are lying about your beliefs.

If there is a sizable amount of people (that are WIDELY supported by the literal movement), that make up lies to prove their beliefs to be correct, how can you expect to convince anyone that you are correct?
 
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DeaconDean

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I know a certain somebody will take issue with this, but I'm gonna post it anyway.

Another reason the apostle Paul stresses the personal side of God's wisdom and knowledge is simply that God is always with us. He is not an absentee creator who started the universe and has now left it to run its course. He created it; He governs it and sustains it; He has given all things a purpose which is to glorify Him. Paul declares this to be true.

"For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." (Rom. 11:36)

In this brief passage, Paul smashes a number of philosophical idols. Matter is not eternal, because it is created; thus materialism is questioned. God created all things; thus mechanical evolution is put to rest. He sustains all things; thus purposeless evolution is set aside along with any other system that would deny that the world is held together by active intervention of a transcendent, immanent God. All things are for Him; thus to hold the idea of purposeless universe is shattered. Space does not permit us to take each one of these phrases and trace them through the Word of God. If one should take the time to do it, he would discover that the fact and the proof for each phrase exists in the Scripture.

Donald G. Barnhouse, Romans, Volume VI, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1958, 1963, God's Covenants, Romans 9:1-11:36, Chapter XIX, The Mind of God, God is Ever-Present, p. 168

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Mikecpking

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I know a certain somebody will take issue with this, but I'm gonna post it anyway.



Donald G. Barnhouse, Romans, Volume VI, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1958, 1963, God's Covenants, Romans 9:1-11:36, Chapter XIX, The Mind of God, God is Ever-Present, p. 168

God Bless

Till all are one.

No problem with that from theistic evolutionists' point of view. After all, we all know who wrote the laws of physics.
 
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Hupomone10

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(Deacon Dean's quote from Donald G. Barnhouse)

"...simply that God is always with us. He is not an absentee creator who started the universe and has now left it to run its course. He created it; He governs it and sustains it; He has given all things a purpose which is to glorify Him...

"In this brief passage, Paul smashes a number of philosophical idols. Matter is not eternal, because it is created; thus materialism is questioned. God created all things; thus mechanical evolution is put to rest. He sustains all things; thus purposeless evolution is set aside along with any other system that would deny that the world is held together by active intervention of a transcendent, immanent God... "

and the response...
No problem with that from theistic evolutionists' point of view. After all, we all know who wrote the laws of physics.
If He merely wrote the laws of physics and stepped back letting these laws take over, how do I know He hasn't just written the laws of sowing and reaping into effect and stepped back in regards to problems in our lives?

A God Who is not present personally in creation may not be present personally in my problems either. The problem is not that He still might be; our minds will fill in the blanks in moments of doubt and tell us that He's not.

Like so many teachings, follow this one to the end of the road and see where it leads. The real danger is in the implication it makes regarding His lack of involvement in my life and helping me with the struggles of life. That doesn't prove evolution wrong; but we aren't going to prove evolution either wrong or right. Just like we're not going to prove creation by design wrong or right. Just simply two possibilities. Follow them to the end of the road and see where they lead.

Then you'll have your answer.

I can't even imagine a God Who is involved with me to the intricate level of knowing the number of hairs on my head (Matt 10:30), and involved with nature to the extent that He is involved with a single sparrow dying (Matt 10:29), would not be equally intricately involved in the creation of this world. I'm afraid that's more speculation than I am any longer willing to make.

Psalm 139:3
"Thou dost scrutinize my path and my lying down, And art intimately acquainted with all my ways."


Creation/evolution may seem to be an unimportant argument; but in fact it has deep ramifications on how we look at God, and therefore how we approach life.

Blessings,
H.
 
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DeaconDean

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No problem with that from theistic evolutionists' point of view. After all, we all know who wrote the laws of physics.

I just wanted to clarify.

I was told several years ago that though Barnhouse made for good "devotional" reading, he couldn't be used for "sound exegetical" preaching.

That is why I said:

I know a certain somebody will take issue with this, but I'm gonna post it anyway.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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I'm not going to waste my time reading all the pages of this thread but contrary to what Prince says ICR and AIG are both good resources. They both have well educated scientists on staff who I have met personally. I have watched many debates and they put the top evolutionists in their place. People like Prince have hard hearts and are not open to the truth.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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and the response...

If He merely wrote the laws of physics and stepped back letting these laws take over, how do I know He hasn't just written the laws of sowing and reaping into effect and stepped back in regards to problems in our lives?

A God Who is not present personally in creation may not be present personally in my problems either. The problem is not that He still might be; our minds will fill in the blanks in moments of doubt and tell us that He's not.

Like so many teachings, follow this one to the end of the road and see where it leads. The real danger is in the implication it makes regarding His lack of involvement in my life and helping me with the struggles of life. That doesn't prove evolution wrong; but we aren't going to prove evolution either wrong or right. Just like we're not going to prove creation by design wrong or right. Just simply two possibilities. Follow them to the end of the road and see where they lead.

Then you'll have your answer.

I can't even imagine a God Who is involved with me to the intricate level of knowing the number of hairs on my head (Matt 10:30), and involved with nature to the extent that He is involved with a single sparrow dying (Matt 10:29), would not be equally intricately involved in the creation of this world. I'm afraid that's more speculation than I am any longer willing to make.

Psalm 139:3
"Thou dost scrutinize my path and my lying down, And art intimately acquainted with all my ways."

Creation/evolution may seem to be an unimportant argument; but in fact it has deep ramifications on how we look at God, and therefore how we approach life.

Blessings,
H.

Many things about God are difficult to understand and explain. However, His love for His people is not only described in the Bible—it is also experience by His people; and that love is not diminished in any way by any theories or laws of science.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I'm not going to waste my time reading all the pages of this thread but contrary to what Prince says ICR and AIG are both good resources. They both have well educated scientists on staff who I have met personally. I have watched many debates and they put the top evolutionists in their place. People like Prince have hard hearts and are not open to the truth.

One of the extremely dishonest methods employed by creationist organizations today is to stage a debate between scientists of opposing views and invite an audience that lacks a good education in the areas of knowledge involved in the debates. Then, by pairing up scientists who advocate for creationism and who have hundreds of hours experience in debating their theory of creation with scientists who have no experience in debating evolution and creation, the scientists advocating for evolution are deceptively put at a huge disadvantage. The creationists know that their tactics are dishonest and that they contradict the very principles of honesty and morality taught throughout the Bible, but they justify their behavior by claiming that the end justifies the means. The audience, however, has been deceived, and walks away with a radically wrong impression of the case for evolution.

Anyone who has the time can easily verify my statements that not even one of the scientists who are advocating today for creation over evolution has an academic background in evolutionary biology making him qualified to have an educated opinion on the matter. Less than one out of every 10,000 scientists around the world today who have earned at least one Ph.D. in science opposes the theory of evolution, and every one of the few score of them who do oppose it, opposes it for religious reasons. Religion and science, when mixed together, result not in science—but in a religious mess.

Please do not take my word for it, however, but go to creationist websites, find the names of scientists who oppose the theory of evolution, and check out where they went to school and what they studied. Furthermore, check out their religious beliefs and the extent to which their religious beliefs interfere with their pursuit of science.
 
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