• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Do Baptists appear to be intellectually challenged baboons...?

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I guess I just don't see how accepting things like an old earth, old universe, modern physics, etc.. makes anyone [insert appropriate unpious word here]. It doesn't mean someone is worldly, 'carnal', unchristian, gospel rejecting, devil loving, doctrine-of-men believing, soffing, fleshly, bible rejecting, or whatever other propaganda buzzwords you can conjure up. I just fail to see how beliefs about the mechanisms, methods, and mode of creation and the created order are very relevant to belief in God or Christian particulars (ie, the resurrection, virgin birth, etc..). I find that it's pretty easy to believe in things like the Inflationary Period and the Big Bang and still be a Christian.
 
Upvote 0

Mikecpking

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2005
2,389
69
60
Telford,Shropshire,England
Visit site
✟25,599.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Now, you want to throw out the rules by which Science lives? If the Theory of Evolution is now proven fact, why hasn't the Scientific Community changed the Theory of Evolution to Evolution established fact?


You do know, I'm sure that the Scriptures aren't intended to teach mankind that he evolved from the great apes.The Scriptures tell man about the Creation of the Universe, the fall of man, and the Lord Jesus Christ's redemption of fallen man.

The bibles calls us 'nephesh' and also the animals too. There is massive evidence we are not decended from the great apes, rather we are descended from a common ancestor. What is special about mankind is we have God's ruah in us and therefore, a special creation and therefore, we carry the image of God. 'Nephesh', by the way is translated 'soul'.

What does the value of pi have to do with the intended purpose of the Scriptures?

Everything. Do you believe the scriptures or what scientists say the value is.

1 Kings 7:24



Are you saying that God cannot speak to those things He created? I certainly won't say that. Look at a good concordance at the references cited regarding the soul. I think the soul is that part of man that doesn't die in the manner that the corruptable body dies.

There is nothing in the bible to support the immortality of the soul. It is a pagan idea coming from Plato and consequently should be rejected. This is more important, because we should believe God and not Plato.

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30
Ezekiel 18:4
 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
When God does a deep work in the heart of a man, that man does not falsely accuse his brother’s education of being worldly
Do you believe it is intellectually ethical to say a brother accuses you of something when he merely challenges you as well as himself to take thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ? I accused you of nothing.
your explanation hinges up the false premise that a secular education is a “worldly” education,
...
excellent secular education ...

... God did not bless me or any other Christian with an excellent secular education so that we could “take every opinion and thought to the Cross and leave them there.” ... God did not bless me or any other Christian with an excellent sacred education... God blessed us with an excellent sacred education ...
[/QUOTE]

From Secular - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1.
a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns>
b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music>

You have said it yourself. It is a secular education, so per Webster's, it is worldly.

"Love not the world, neither the things in the world." 1 John

an archaic, academically indefensible interpretation of the Bible ...
This is your accusation, which is the thing that is indefensible. It is absolutely defensible to prove the historic documents literally say "seven days". It is proveable by grammatical historical analysis, and therefore academically defensible. Anything else is opinion that is masquerading under the guise of interpretation.

You can call that “baggage” whatever you want to call it, but the Bible NEVER calls it the “flesh.” The flesh is that part of every man, including the incarnate Christ (Rom. 8:3), that makes him susceptible to temptation,
Gal. 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Paul pointed out that to live by rules and works was to live by the flesh. The flesh has its good side as well as its bad: self-righteousness as well as unrighteousness. Paul would disagree with your assessment of the flesh.

 
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟173,798.00
Faith
Baptist
Do you believe it is intellectually ethical to say a brother accuses you of something when he merely challenges you as well as himself to take thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ? I accused you of nothing.

You wrote:

“I am truly not embarrassed by Christians such as yourself who carry with them after salvation worldly opinions regarding scripture.”

That is a maliciously false accusation.

From Secular - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1.
a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns>
b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music>

You have said it yourself. It is a secular education, so per Webster's, it is worldly.

No, I did not say it myself. Merriam-Webster’s flagship dictionary, Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, gives 15 meanings of the English word ‘secular.’ The context in which I used the word makes it obvious that I am using the word ‘secular’ in the sense, “not overtly or specifically religious.” Reading, writing, and arithmetic are secular subjects; the study of Christianity is a religious subject. Reading, writing, and arithmetic are NOT, however, “worldly subjects.” My use of the word “secular” did not have a pejorative connotation; the word “worldly” has a strongly pejorative connotation, and in your post, it was used as insult of both my secular and my Christian education.

This is your accusation, which is the thing that is indefensible. It is absolutely defensible to prove the historic documents literally say "seven days". It is proveable by grammatical historical analysis, and therefore academically defensible. Anything else is opinion that is masquerading under the guise of interpretation.

The Bible is written in many different genres of literature. The first eleven chapters of Genesis are written in a genre that is not found anywhere else in the Bible, and 200 years of research of that genre has proven that it is one of three types of the narrative genre: a series of myths, legends, or epic tales. All three of these genres use literal expressions like “seven days” and the meaning is literally seven days. Any other interpretation comes under the heading of “nonsense.” That does not change the fact, however, that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are a series of myths, legends, or epic tales. I believe that the preponderance of evidence points to the first eleven chapters Genesis being a series of ancient oriental epic tales that were woven together by divine inspiration over a period of time into the eleven chapters that we have today, and that they were thus inspired by God to teach spiritual truths. The evidence for this view has been summarized in several recent commentaries on the Hebrew text of Genesis and in very many academic papers on Genesis. The interpretation that you are advocating for is NOT found in any recent commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis.

Gal. 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Paul pointed out that to live by rules and works was to live by the flesh. The flesh has its good side as well as its bad: self-righteousness as well as unrighteousness. Paul would disagree with your assessment of the flesh.

I could cite very numerous lexical studies by internationally recognized scholars that share my view. Can you cite even one that shares your view? No, you cannot.
 
Upvote 0

joshua41

Junior Member
Jun 25, 2007
142
10
36
the south
✟22,824.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Hupomone10, it does no good to even talk to evolutionists. Their minds are made up their way. It is also fact they won't change the mind of a Bible-believing Christian who accepts literally all of the scriptures. God will sort us out.

When did the term evolution become a bad word in Baptist churches?

I guess I just don't see how accepting things like an old earth, old universe, modern physics, etc.. makes anyone [insert appropriate unpious word here]. It doesn't mean someone is worldly, 'carnal', unchristian, gospel rejecting, devil loving, doctrine-of-men believing, soffing, fleshly, bible rejecting, or whatever other propaganda buzzwords you can conjure up. I just fail to see how beliefs about the mechanisms, methods, and mode of creation and the created order are very relevant to belief in God or Christian particulars (ie, the resurrection, virgin birth, etc..). I find that it's pretty easy to believe in things like the Inflationary Period and the Big Bang and still be a Christian.

I agree.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟173,798.00
Faith
Baptist
Hupomone10, it does no good to even talk to evolutionists. Their minds are made up their way. It is also fact they won't change the mind of a Bible-believing Christian who accepts literally all of the scriptures. God will sort us out.

The Jehovah&#8217;s witnesses believe that Jesus was impaled on a stake rather than a cross. They believe that because that is what they have been taught by other Jehovah&#8217;s witnesses. It does not matter to them that numerous secular sources of information tell us that Jesus was crucified on a cross because the Scriptures literally say that he was staked on a stake; that is, that he was impaled on a stake. There is no Biblical basis of any kind to indicate that Jesus was crucified. Even The Companion Bible (a 2,177 page study Bible edited by Ethelbert William Bullinger http://www.ewbullingerbooks.com/Catalog/e-w-bullinger-companion-bible.htm ), says in Appendix 162,

Our English word &#8220;cross&#8221; is the translation of the Latin crux; but the Greek word stauros no more means a crux than the word &#8220;stick&#8221; means a &#8220;crutch.&#8221;

Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning throughout the Greek classics.

It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone&#8230;.There is nothing in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber.

This article in The Companion Bible proceeds to explain in depth how the concept that Jesus was crucified on a cross came about, and documents the accuracy of the article by citing several reference works along with the page numbers so that the reader can personally check out the accuracy of the article. One of the reference works that is quoted is Letters from Rome by Dean John William Burgon, the passionate defender of the KJV and the historicity of the Book of Genesis and its Mosaic authorship. The article then concludes with these words,

The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.

The Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses quote The Companion Bible in their literature to prove that their teaching regarding the crucifixion of Jesus is true, and that the traditional Christian teaching is false. They also quote from page 764 in A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Christian Literature, Second Edition, 1979 (the standard Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament used in our Baptist seminaries until it was superseded by the Third Edition, 2000 http://www.bbc.edu/journal/volume5_1/greek_lexicon-bookreview.pdf ), where it provides the following definition of the Greek word stauros: cross (Hom. + in the sense &#8216;upright pointed stake&#8217; or &#8216;pale&#8221;) in our lit. of the instrument by which the capital punishment of crucifixion was carried out&#8230;.&#8221; This definition is followed by citations from early Christian literature to support the definition given.

So, my friends who call themselves &#8216;Bible-believing Christians who accept literally all of the scriptures,&#8217; do you believe, along with the Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses, a literal interpretation of the New Testament accounts of the &#8220;crucifixion&#8221; of Jesus, or do believe in the traditional Christian interpretation? What is the basis of your belief&#8212;a literal interpretation of the New Testament accounts of the &#8220;crucifixion&#8221; of Jesus, or extracanonical accounts, archeological evidence, or secular Roman history of the execution of criminals?

I believe the extracanonical accounts, the archeological evidence, and the secular Roman history of the execution of criminals; therefore, I believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross.


Should I be convinced of anything by a young-earth creationist who has never even read the Hebrew Old Testament, who has never studied translation theory, and who knows nothing about evolutionary biology? Should I toss into the trash the education that God has blessed me just because a young-earth creationist who has never even read the Hebrew Old Testament, who has never studied translation theory, and who knows nothing about evolutionary biology tells me that I do not believe the Bible? I do not think so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Hupomone10, it does no good to even talk to evolutionists. Their minds are made up their way. It is also fact they won't change the mind of a Bible-believing Christian who accepts literally all of the scriptures. God will sort us out.
I believe you are right. That's one reason I've not been in a hurry to respond back.

I did do some research on why young people leave church to see if the theory had any foundation that it is influenced by the church's belief in creation over evolution. I found several interesting articles. Here's the best one, based on research done by Lifeway, the literature arm of the So. Baptist denomination:

Survey: Reasons Why Young Adults Quit Church | Christianpost.com

What I found was that young people by and large leave due to emotional and relationship-related issues, not a view of a certain doctrine. In the three articles I found, the young earth theory and creation/evolution wasn't even mentioned.

In the article above, Lifeway's conclusion: "Almost all church dropouts were related to life changes."

Here are the statistics from the above article, regarding dropouts from church:
27% - "I simply wanted a break from church."
25% - Transitioning into college
23% - "Work responsibilities prevented me from attending"
22% - "I moved too far away from the church to continue attending"

After age 22, the reasons for not coming back to church:

52% said "religious, ethical or political beliefs" contributed to their departure from church. But again, no mention specifically of creation/evolution position.

Of those:
18% - Disagreed with the church's stance on political or social issues -
17% - "I was only going to church to please others"
16% - No longer wanted to identify with a church or organized religion
14% - Disagreed with the church's teachings about God.

Of those who left because of church or pastor-related reasons:
26% - "Church members seemed judgmental or hypocritical"
20% - "Didn't feel connected to the people in my church"


Why they return: The primary reason church dropouts eventually return to church? Are you ready?
..............."Encouragement from family or friends":
39% - encouragement from family or friends,
21% - encouragement from their own friends or acquaintances
34% - "simply had the desire to return"
28% - "I felt that God was calling me to return to the church."

Other reasons for returning:
24% - "I had children and felt it was time for them to start attending"
20% - "I got married and wanted to attend with my spouse"

Adoption of the theory of evolution by adults wasn't listed.

Those who stayed in church through ages 18 - 22:
~50% - church was helping them become a better person;
42% - due to being committed to the purpose and work of the church.

Conclusions:

Youth are looking "for a church that teaches them how to live life."

The researchers stressed "the importance of relationships that can keep people in the church and parents in passing a robust Christian faith to their children."

In a similar article,
'Generation Ex-Christian' Uncovers Why People Leave the Faith | Christianpost.com,
based on the book "Generation Ex-Christian", the author "urges older members in the church to build relationships with young people."

"Often what I found is the break from their faith came in the context of relationships, something went wrong with either a youth pastor, a parent, or some other spiritual authority. If they are going to be reconciled, come back to the church, it is going to have to happen in the context of relationships."

Are you getting the picture? We are being sold a bill of goods to think that believing the Bible as it is written is the reason for them leaving or that embracing evolution is how to get them back.

We need to build relationships and live godly lives in front of them and teach them how to handle life's situations themselves based on God's principles.

Then they will stay,

and will be prepared for life.

Blessings,
H.
 
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟173,798.00
Faith
Baptist
I believe you are right. That's one reason I've not been in a hurry to respond back.

I did do some research on why young people leave church to see if the theory had any foundation that it is influenced by the church's belief in creation over evolution. I found several interesting articles. Here's the best one, based on research done by Lifeway, the literature arm of the So. Baptist denomination:

Survey: Reasons Why Young Adults Quit Church | Christianpost.com

What I found was that young people by and large leave due to emotional and relationship-related issues, not a view of a certain doctrine. In the three articles I found, the young earth theory and creation/evolution wasn't even mentioned.

In the article above, Lifeway's conclusion: "Almost all church dropouts were related to life changes."

Here are the statistics from the above article, regarding dropouts from church:
27% - "I simply wanted a break from church."
25% - Transitioning into college
23% - "Work responsibilities prevented me from attending"
22% - "I moved too far away from the church to continue attending"

After age 22, the reasons for not coming back to church:

52% said "religious, ethical or political beliefs" contributed to their departure from church. But again, no mention specifically of creation/evolution position.

Of those:
18% - Disagreed with the church's stance on political or social issues -
17% - "I was only going to church to please others"
16% - No longer wanted to identify with a church or organized religion
14% - Disagreed with the church's teachings about God.

Of those who left because of church or pastor-related reasons:
26% - "Church members seemed judgmental or hypocritical"
20% - "Didn't feel connected to the people in my church"


Why they return: The primary reason church dropouts eventually return to church? Are you ready?
..............."Encouragement from family or friends":
39% - encouragement from family or friends,
21% - encouragement from their own friends or acquaintances
34% - "simply had the desire to return"
28% - "I felt that God was calling me to return to the church."

Other reasons for returning:
24% - "I had children and felt it was time for them to start attending"
20% - "I got married and wanted to attend with my spouse"

Adoption of the theory of evolution by adults wasn't listed.

Those who stayed in church through ages 18 - 22:
~50% - church was helping them become a better person;
42% - due to being committed to the purpose and work of the church.

Conclusions:

Youth are looking "for a church that teaches them how to live life."

The researchers stressed "the importance of relationships that can keep people in the church and parents in passing a robust Christian faith to their children."

In a similar article,
'Generation Ex-Christian' Uncovers Why People Leave the Faith | Christianpost.com,
based on the book "Generation Ex-Christian", the author "urges older members in the church to build relationships with young people."

"Often what I found is the break from their faith came in the context of relationships, something went wrong with either a youth pastor, a parent, or some other spiritual authority. If they are going to be reconciled, come back to the church, it is going to have to happen in the context of relationships."

Are you getting the picture? We are being sold a bill of goods to think that believing the Bible as it is written is the reason for them leaving or that embracing evolution is how to get them back.

We need to build relationships and live godly lives in front of them and teach them how to handle life's situations themselves based on God's principles.

Then they will stay,

and will be prepared for life.

Blessings,
H.

Let us not confuse two very different topics:

1. The reasons why people leave their local congregation

2. The primary reason why our young people are rejecting the Bible as a source of truth

The primary reason why our young people are rejecting the Bible as a source of truth is that they are under the false impression that the Bible teaches young-earth creationism—a doctrine that is neither academically defensible nor in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and its flora and fauna. The solution: teach our young people an interpretation of the Bible that is academically defensible and in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and it flora and fauna.
 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I also found an interesting article by Al Mohler who said in his opinion the theory of evolution "represents one of the greatest challenges to Christian faith and faithfulness in our times,"

the article:
Baptist Press - Mohler at center of debate over evolution & the Bible - News with a Christian Perspective

Mohler is a very reputable Baptist and scholar today, on par probably with R. C. Sproul in godliness, intelligence, and education.

Even young people overwhelmingly mention nothing about evolution as a major reason they left the church, (and that it had to do with emotional harm from childhood, or by some bad experience in the church, or role models that let them down), I do believe that Mohler has a point.

I do believe that it is a serious issue from the standpoint of being an underlying thing that has caused them to doubt the credibility of God's Word, and therefore the relevance of the church.

With the above mentioned emotional reasons it's not a far jump to see that evolution started the doubt that the more intense relatioship/emotional experiences put the cap on.

Here's the opinion from the other side, quoted in the Mohler article, and I think you'll recognize this philosophical position; it is remarkably similar to what we've heard by certain persons here:

"Francis Collins makes the point made by so many others that we will actually lose credibility sharing the Gospel of Christ if we do not shed ourselves of the anti-intellectualism which is judged to be ours by the elite if we do not accept the theory of evolution," Mohler said.

Francis Collins founded the BioLogos Foundation, which according to him exists so that the evangelical church "can come to peace with the scientific data which shows unequivocally that the universe is very old and that all of life, including humankind, has been created through a gradual process that has been taking place over the past few billion years."

BioLogos is funded by a grant from the John Templeton Foundation. Templeton was a lifetime member of the Presbyterian church, and a trustee of Princeton Theological Seminary.

A quote from John Templeton: "Why shouldn't I go to Hindu services? Why shouldn't I go to Muslim services? If you are not egotistical, you will welcome the opportunity to learn more." - "John Templeton, billionaire U.S. philanthropist, dies at 95". Bloomberg.com.

Mohler:
"What is most lacking in the evangelical movement today... is a consideration of the theological cost of holding to an old earth position. The position seems to be at an "insoluble collision with the redemptive historical narrative of the Gospel."

"The cost to the Christian church, in terms of ignoring this question or abandoning the discussion, is just too high. The cost of confronting this question is also costly," Mohler said. "It can be very expensive because it can create intensity and conflict and controversy, but I would suggest that the avoidance of this will be at the cost of our own credibility."

The quote I like by Dr. Mohler the best:

"... In our effort to be most faithful to the Scriptures and most accountable to the grand narrative of the Gospel, an understanding of creation in terms of 24-hour calendar days and a young earth entails far fewer complications, far fewer theological problems and actually is the most straightforward and uncomplicated reading of the text as we come to understand God telling us how the universe came to be and what it means and why it matters."

In his discussion with Collins, Mohler points out:
"If your intention in Saving Darwin is to show 'how to be a Christian and believe in evolution,' what you have actually succeeded in doing is to show how much doctrine Christianity has to surrender in order to accommodate itself to evolution," Mohler wrote.

"In doing this, you and your colleagues at BioLogos are actually doing us all a great service. You are showing us what the acceptance of evolution actually costs, in terms of theological concessions."


I couldn't agree more in reference to this thread and what it has revealed.

"Virtually every form of theological liberalism arises from an attempt to rescue Christian theology from what is perceived to be an intellectual embarrassment -- whether the virgin conception of Christ, the historicity of the miracles recorded in the Bible, or, in our immediate context, the inerrancy of Scripture and the Bible's account of creation,"

Bravo, Dr. Al Mohler. May your tribe increase.

H.

 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You wrote:

“I am truly not embarrassed by Christians such as yourself who carry with them after salvation worldly opinions regarding scripture.”

That is a maliciously false accusation.
It was not meant maliciously; and I do not believe it is false. If anything, you have made clear that your faith is in your secular education.

No, I did not say it myself. Merriam-Webster’s flagship dictionary, Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, gives 15 meanings of the English word ‘secular.’
and in your post, it was used as insult of both my secular and my Christian education.

It was used as descriptive, not insult. If you took it as insult, it is only affirming what I've been saying from the beginning - the problem with Christians who think of themselves as "educated" is one of intellectual pride. Their faith is primarily in their intellect, and therefore in the institutions that gave them this education. If you attack the education, you have attacked the very foundation of their philosophy of belief, and you will be attacked.

What Christian education are you referring to? I sincerely hope you're not trying to pass Princeton off as an acceptable "Christian" education, not in a conservative denomination anyway.


The Bible is written in many different genres of literature. The interpretation that you are advocating for is NOT found in any recent commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis.
Who cares about recent? Maybe you. Since you mentioned none, I will just say that you are wrong, and I can cite several, recent ones also. So, again you are wrong.


I could cite very numerous lexical studies by internationally recognized scholars that share my view. Can you cite even one that shares your view? No, you cannot.
You asked me the question, and answer it yourself. As phoenix said, there is no point in having a conversation. I noticed that you cited none. I don't need to, since you already know so much about my education and what I know.

Sorry we disagree so vehemently, but we in fact do.

I believe your perspective is one of the worst things for the spread of the gospel today, for the gospel of all things must be based on truth, and IMHO you are basing it on lies.

I believe it is one of the worst foundations to lay for living the Christian life once saved, also. Not only does it do harm to the gospel, but it builds such a shallow foundation for solving of life's issues. It gives the unfortunate new believer who is wrongly taught this false philosophy of evolution as a God-ordained method that survival of the fittest is how God operates. He will quite naturally then, whenever he confronts any of life's greatest challenges, try to dig in his heels and use all his natural strength, resolve, resources of Self, and be entrenched in the experience of Romans 7, until he gets tired of it and settles for defeat in the Christian life or leaves saying "it didn't work for me."

The message of the Bible is that through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin. We were all born with a sinful nature because born of Adam who fell. We are of Adam's stock.

We have a sinful nature that we cannot overcome. God in Christ crucified that sinful nature we inherited from Adam the first sinner positionally so that the person in Christ might through faith in Christ who will not change, faith in Christ's work which cannot change, and in His Word which will never fail,
walk in victory and freedom from life's defeating situations.

So, yes, I can cite many references of godly Christians who present the view of the flesh as I presented it, as well as many godly Christians that support this view I hold toward scripture. I can also cite centuries upon centuries of godly and intelligent Christians who believed the Word of God as written, and it benefited their lives.

You cannot. You can only cite this last couple of generations which have been influenced by Darwin and by educrats and would rather be accepted by them than be counted with the faithful in Christ by simple faith.

This type of intellectual pride and acceptance of man's spin over God's Word makes me understand how Jesus could say what He did to the Laodicean church, for it truly makes me sick.

This is a tired thread; you failed to do what you set out to do; and what you set out to do was very low in my opinion, anyway: attempting to make certain Christians out to be Baboons. That is offensive, but I understand that you don't think so, because that is what intellectual pride does. It gets one to demean others so the one can appear better. When it doesn't win the argument, it cannot admit the other side might be right (not the Baboons!:o) so it resorts to name-calling and nit-picking.


Be happy putting your faith in the spin of man.
I will trust in God's Word.

H.
 
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟173,798.00
Faith
Baptist
I also found an interesting article by Al Mohler who said in his opinion the theory of evolution "represents one of the greatest challenges to Christian faith and faithfulness in our times,"

Al Mohler is correct in writing that the theory evolution “represents one of the greatest challenges to Christian faith and faithfulness in our times,” and that is what I have been saying in my posts. The reason why this is true is that our young people (not just our Christian young people) are taking a stand for the theory of evolution and against the theory of young-earth creationism. Al Mohler, however, does not understand the solution. The solution is to teach our young people an interpretation of the Bible that is academically defensible and in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and it flora and fauna, thereby 100% eliminating the challenge!
 
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟173,798.00
Faith
Baptist
It was not meant maliciously; and I do not believe it is false. If anything, you have made clear that your faith is in your secular education.

As a brother in Christ, I will take your word for it that your statement was not meant maliciously. It was, however, an absolutely false statement. Furthermore, my faith is neither in my secular education nor in my religious education—my faith is in Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. My interpretation of the Bible is in harmony with both my secular and my religious education—not because my education is true, but because my interpretation of the Bible is true to the word of God and what God has graciously allowed us to learn about Himself and about His creation through both the Bible and science.
 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Let us not confuse two very different topics:

1. The reasons why people leave their local congregation

2. The primary reason why our young people are rejecting the Bible as a source of truth

The primary reason why our young people are rejecting the Bible as a source of truth is that they are under the false impression that the Bible teaches young-earth creationism—a doctrine that is neither academically defensible nor in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and its flora and fauna. The solution: teach our young people an interpretation of the Bible that is academically defensible and in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and it flora and fauna.
First of all, the Bible is not "a source of truth." It is truth, not all truth, but whenever it speaks, it is truth. And it is our authority as far as written documents are concerned.

"The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." - Baptist Faith and Message

If you are suggesting that the young people who reject the Bible as "a source of truth" are staying in the church I think you are misguided; please show support for that. They may be two different topics, but they are much the same group. Those who reject the Bible, for whatever reason, are part of those leaving the church, not staying; and according to the evidence I presented above they are a small part of that group, so it is a small part of the reason they are leaving church; so small as to not even get honorable mention.

If they stay, its at liberal churches where one can openly believe the Bible is only a story book anyway, and only a source of truth" instead of the truth. In those churches they are following "blind leaders of the blind" and even the leadership has rejected the Bible as their authority. It is no surprise the young people reject the Word of God when the adult leadership does.

Having established that the ones rejecting the Bible are NOT different but are largely included in the group who are leaving: would you be willing to compare memberships between these denominations - the liberal ones that espouse the very false doctrine of evolution you are touting here and trying to get Baptists to accept, and the conservative ones who accept the Bible as truth, not a source almost equal to science - to see which churches are dying and which churches are growing?

I think we both know what we will find. Baptist churches embracing your philosophy of evolution are not largely the thriving ones.

But that's beside the point. Teaching young people a lie is not helping them, even if that makes them accept the Bible as "a source of truth." Evolution is NOT taught in any shape or fashion in Genesis and you know this. You are now posting outright error instead of just saying it's your opinion:
"under the false impression that the Bible teaches young-earth creationism"
when you and i both know that is THE ONLY THING the Bible says. The Bible doesn't "teach" anything; it takes people to teach what it says. What does it say, before man's spin is placed on it? Young earth, seven day creation. And you know that. You are now either confusing what the Bible teaches with the liberal interpretation of Genesis, or you are deliberately trying to mislead.

—a doctrine that is neither academically defensible

Yes it IS academically defensible, and is defended very well from the Creation scientists and their books which you just dismiss and won't consider. But I won't let these statements go unchallenged and let you post what I consider blatant false statements without a challenge.

nor in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and its flora and fauna.
Please explain for me and the others how the everyday observation of plants shows anyone that life evolved over millions of years through the process of chance?

I have a revelation for you, Princeton, that apparently you didn't learn from your education you are so proud of. Since you talk so often about being able to read the Hebrew OT, I would think you would know this.

Bible translation and interpretation has never considered as one of its principles, taking into account what scientists say about the plants and leaves and flowers. You will search long and hard, even in liberal sources, for someone including as a principle of Bible interpretation "please ask the scientists what they think."

So, although you are trying to make a valid point, that science and changing our views to match science, can add credibility to the Bible message, your technique is new to you and other liberals who wish to water down the message of the Word so others like themselves can accept it.

If you wish, I will give a list of the principles used for both interpretation and translation. But you know as well as I do, that "check with the scientists" is not one of them.

The solution: teach our young people an interpretation of the Bible that is academically defensible and in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and it flora and fauna.

That is a false solution based on the false assumption that young earth is not even a possible explanation of the text, and it would be teaching them that they can interpret the Bible in whatever way contemporary influences say you should, it would encourage them that Bible interpretation is subjective.

If you are trying to make more liberals, then I would say this is a good technique. But if you're trying to make disciples of Christ, stick to the Word, and what it easily says and means that so many of us don't have a problem understanding.

H.
 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Mr P.

I think I'm done arguing with you. Your mind is made up and is as set and as narrow as you believe mine is.

I believe you are supporting a false belief that is very dangerous to the church and to young people.

I believe in the years to come evolution will be abandoned for another theory, that life was seeded here from space for instance. When scientists are really willing to look at the evidence and abandon it, when that happens, it will be too late to try to reverse the harm evolution has done to the minds of the youth.

By teaching theistic evolution we water down the Bible and its effect as authority in our lives and the lives of others.

People may intend this with the best intentions. But this liberalism has done nothing but decimate the denominations that espouse it. Therefore it is obvious to me what the enemy's intentions are with evolution. To destroy the veruy foundation of the gospel, and decimate the church.

Pleas prove me wrong by showing me thriving denominations that largely support evolution. Otherwise, do not be a part of the decimation of what has been a powerful denomination and has overcome many liberal challenges in the recent past.

Thanks,
H.
H.
 
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟173,798.00
Faith
Baptist
First of all, the Bible is not "a source of truth." It is truth, not all truth, but whenever it speaks, it is truth. And it is our authority as far as written documents are concerned.

"The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." - Baptist Faith and Message
I am not a Southern Baptist and I do not believe that they are the final authority for matters of faith and practice. Instead, I believe that the Bible is the final authority for matters of faith and practice. Nonetheless, in this particular instance, but not in some others, I agree with their statement about the Bible. Are you confusing your interpretation of the Bible with what the Bible says? I believe the Bible, every word of it, but I do not believe your interpretation of the Bible because your interpretation of the Bible contradicts what God has manifested to be true through his creation of the earth and its flora and fauna.

The earth is not only about 6,000 years old (or only about 10,000 years old as the ICR claims); it is at the very least hundreds of millions of years old, and a few million scientists around the world who have earned at least one Ph.D. agree that this is so—not just a theory—but a fact! Of the two or three score scientists who disagree, everyone of them disagrees because of their archaic interpretation of Genesis 1-11 and they dismiss as misleading the massive amount of evidence from the life and earth sciences that prove their theory to be incorrect.

Evolution through natural selection is not just a theory; it is a fact of science, having been observed in both the laboratory and in the field. Indeed, this fact is now so well known that even very popular creationist websites such as “Answers in Genesis” acknowledge the validity of the science. What is still a theory is that by this same process, all plants and animals alive today evolved from a very simple, sub-cellular life form.

As I have already posted, I do not believe that man evolved from a sub-cellular life form, but my belief is based upon my religious views rather than my education in evolutionary biology. I know for certain, however, that Genesis 6-9 cannot possibly be an accurate account of historic events and I agree with today’s scholars of the Hebrew text of Genesis that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are a series of myths, legends, or epic tales. Personally, I believe that the preponderance of evidence points to the first eleven chapters Genesis being a series of ancient oriental epic tales that were woven together by divine inspiration over a period of time into the eleven chapters that we have today, and that they were thus inspired by God to teach spiritual truths. The evidence for this view has been summarized in several recent commentaries on the Hebrew text of Genesis and in very many academic papers on Genesis. The interpretation that you are advocating for is NOT found in any recent commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis published by a publisher of Christian books. Such an interpretation is found, however, in a number of commentaries on the English text of Genesis published by publishers of Christian books.

If you are suggesting that the young people who reject the Bible as "a source of truth" are staying in the church I think you are misguided; please show support for that. They may be two different topics, but they are much the same group. Those who reject the Bible, for whatever reason, are part of those leaving the church, not staying; and according to the evidence I presented above they are a small part of that group, so it is a small part of the reason they are leaving church; so small as to not even get honorable mention.

I neither suggested nor implied that the young people who are rejecting the Bible as a source of truth are staying in the church. I wrote nothing at all about whether they are staying in the church. You posted about young people who are leaving the Church; I posted about young people who are rejecting the Bible as a source of truth. They are two very different topics. Furthermore, your post regarding Al Mohler’s concerns about the impact that the theory of evolution is having upon the Christian faith documents my position. Indeed, I replied above,

Al Mohler is correct in writing that the theory evolution “represents one of the greatest challenges to Christian faith and faithfulness in our times,” and that is what I have been saying in my posts. The reason why this is true is that our young people (not just our Christian young people) are taking a stand for the theory of evolution and against the theory of young-earth creationism. Al Mohler, however, does not understand the solution. The solution is to teach our young people an interpretation of the Bible that is academically defensible and in harmony with everyday observations of the earth and it flora and fauna, thereby 100% eliminating the challenge!
The theory that the earth is no more than about 10,000 years old is seen as ridiculous by a rapidly growing portion of young people today, and even if the theory of evolution (the theory that all plants and animals alive today evolved through the process of natural selection from a very simple, sub-cellular life form) should eventually be abandoned by every one of the few million scientists who believe it today, the Bible will still be seen to contradict the fact that the earth is, at the very least, hundreds of millions of years old. Therefore, our young people (not only our Christian young people) will continue to reject the Bible as a reliable source of truth.

I am one of hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of conservative, evangelical Christians today who believe that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are not an accurate account of historic events. The genre of literature in which they are written tells us that they are not, and even a bright eighth-grader can calculate for himself/herself from the story of Noah’s Ark in the Bible the weight of the water that the ark would be capable of displacing and the weight of the animals that the story says were aboard the ark, and consequently know for a fact that the ark would not float! Furthermore, a bright eighth-grader can draw a picture of the ark based upon the description of it in the Genesis account, look at the picture, and see for himself/herself that the ark would not be sea-worthy, contrary to the claims of young-earth creationists who argue that it would be sea-worthy but have enough common sense not to build such an ark to prove their theory and watch it break apart in a matter of minutes on the surface of the ocean.

Teaching young people a lie is not helping them, even if that makes them accept the Bible as "a source of truth." Evolution is NOT taught in any shape or fashion in Genesis and you know this. You are now posting outright error instead of just saying it's your opinion:
when you and i both know that is THE ONLY THING the Bible says.

Teaching young people an interpretation of the Bible that has been proven to be false though both literary studies and science is not helping our young people—it is causing them to conclude that the Bible is not a reliable source of truth. The earth is NOT only about 10,000 years old, and to claim that the Bible says that it is only about 10,000 years old is to claim that the Bible is wrong. The Bible is not wrong—the young-earth creationists are wrong and their teaching is convincing our young people that the Bible is not a reliable source of truth.

Yes it IS academically defensible, and is defended very well from the Creation scientists and their books which you just dismiss and won't consider.

I have considered it—I have weighed the evidence, and I have found it to weigh very little. I have considered it—I have found that it is based almost entirely upon misrepresentations of facts. I have considered it—I have found their propaganda to be religious rather than scientific, and I have found their religious view of young-earth creationism to be the greatest obstacle to our young people believing the Bible.

So, although you are trying to make a valid point, that science and changing our views to match science, can add credibility to the Bible message, your technique is new to you and other liberals who wish to water down the message of the Word so others like themselves can accept it.

These claims are false, and the incontrovertible fact that they are false can be seen from hundreds of my posts on this message board in which I have staunchly defended the Bible against those who are attempting to water it down by accepting the homosexual lifestyle, by permitting remarriage (to a different spouse) after divorce, and by denying the efficacy of the atonement of Christ to free the believe from the bonds of sin.

If you wish, I will give a list of the principles used for both interpretation and translation. But you know as well as I do, that "check with the scientists" is not one of them.

The most fundamental principle of biblical hermeneutics is that in order for any interpretation of the Bible to be the correct interpretation, it MUST be in harmony with all of the relevant data—including data from science!

That is a false solution based on the false assumption that young earth is not even a possible explanation of the text, and it would be teaching them that they can interpret the Bible in whatever way contemporary influences say you should, it would encourage them that Bible interpretation is subjective.
If you are trying to make more liberals, then I would say this is a good technique. But if you're trying to make disciples of Christ, stick to the Word, and what it easily says and means that so many of us don't have a problem understanding.

Let us not confuse teaching a correct and academically defensible interpretation of the Bible with teaching, or advocating for, liberalism. Conservative, evangelical Christianity is not conservative when it teaches an incorrect and academically indefensible interpretation of the Bible. Conservative, evangelical Christianity is not evangelical when it is commingled with incorrect and easily disprovable doctrines that repel people from Christ and His message.
 
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I'm glad you hold some conservative principles. This to me is confirmation that the sole reason you believe in evolution is because your education and field are in science. You cannot separate them and look objectively at scripture by simple dependence on the Holy Spirit's enlightenment.

I know you can't see but wish you could, that homosexuals do the same thing with such passages as Romans 1 as you have attempted to do with Genesis. The same basic philosophy. This dichotomy in your life cannot last long. I suspect that in your near future will be a continued "evolution" of your theology; for there is no difference in what you are doing with Genesis and such people as Ollie Franz attempted to do with passages like Romans 1. Even if you maintain this dichotomy and argue that it is consistent and defensible, young people - and even your children - will be able to see through the inconsistency if not hypocrisy of it.

I don't know where to go with this. I disagree with almost everything you wrote in the preceding post, and believe it is false.

You staunchly maintain that scientists should be consulted in the interpretation of scripture. That is error at the best, and deliberate deception at worst. In either case, it is not the method used by scholars historically to translate or interpret the scriptures.

In doing this, you are trying to wed secular science with Biblical translation and interpretation, and this is an unequal yoke of worldly methods with spiritual.

FYI, the rules of interpretation I will include in the next post. This I feel the need to do because of the blatant misrepresentation you have made regarding the need to consult scientists for spiritual interpretation of the Word of God.

Here, I will merely add that this article in the news shows that not even the secular teachers have decided to teach your theory of evolution consistently.

"The majority of high-school biology teachers don't take a solid stance on evolution with their students, mostly to avoid conflicts, and fewer than 30 percent of teachers take an adamant pro-evolutionary stance on the topic, a new study finds."

"And 13 percent of these teachers advocate creationism in their classrooms."

"About 60 percent of the teachers polled didn't take a direct stance on the subject, dubbed by the authors as the "cautious 60 percent."

Creationism Still Advocated in H.S. Biology Classes, Study Finds - FoxNews.com

Secular science teachers themselves can't come to a consensus on the truth of evolution over creationism, or on whether to teach it or not, and you are calling Baptists, some of the best of evangelical Christians, to abandon God's revelation of creation, the literal meaning of Genesis, and teach what secular teachers can't even decide to do!

No thank you. I'll stick to tried and true principles of Biblical interpretation. By the way, to say that taking literally what Genesis says is an interpretation, as to you asserted; if I told you I am coming to see you in 2 days, would that need interpretation? If I recorded that 4,500 years ago would it need interpretation?

May this false doctrine not increase,
H.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hupomone10

Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
3,952
142
Here
✟27,471.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
[FONT=&quot]COMMENTS ON LITERAL INTERPRETATION[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]&#8220;All interpretation began with the literal interpretation of Ezra. This literal method became the basic method of Rabbinism. It was the accepted method used by the New Testament in the interpretation of the Old and was so employed by the Lord and His apostles. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"This literal method was the method of the Church Fathers until the time of Origen when the allegorical method, which had been devised to harmonize Platonic philosophy and scripture, was adopted. Augustine&#8217;s influence brought this allegorizing method into the established church and brought an end to all true exegesis. This system continued until the Reformation. At the Reformation the literal method of interpretation was solidly established and, in spite of the attempts of the church to bring all interpretation into conformity to an adopted creed, literal interpretation continued and became the basis on which all true exegesis rests.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"It would be concluded, then, from the study of the history of interpretation that the original and accepted method of interpretation was the literal method, which was used by the Lord, the greatest interpreter, and any other method was introduced to promote heterodoxy. Therefore, the literal method must be accepted as the basic method for right interpretation in any field of doctrine today.&#8221; Dwight Pentecost, &#8220;Things to Come&#8221;, p. 32-33[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]&#8220;Well, here's a basic principle of understanding the Bible. If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense. Always go for the literal meaning first. For example, in John 15:5 when Jesus said, "I am the vine, you are the branches" what did He really mean? Is Jesus a vine? Yes or no. No, but even though it's a figure, the truth is still literal. Even though Jesus is not a vine and I'm not a branch, He is still like a vine&#8212;the main source of life. And since I get my life from Him, I'm just a branch. So, a figure, but still the truth is literal. &#8211; James MacDonald, &#8220;The Weekly Walk&#8221;, 6/14/10[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Augustine:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]&#8220;Augustine, according to Farrar, was one of the first to make Scripture conform to the interpretation of the church.&#8221; Dwight Pentecost, &#8220;Things to Come&#8221;, p. 23[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]&#8220;The exegesis of St. Augustine is marked by the most glaring defects... He laid down the rule that the Bible must be interpreted with reference to Church Orthodoxy, and that no Scriptural expression can be out of accordance with any other... Snatching up the Old Philonian and Rabbinic rule which had been repeated for so many generations, that everything in Scripture which appeared to be unorthodox or immoral must be interpreted mystically, he introduced confusion into his dogma of supernatural inspiration by admitting that there are many passages &#8220;written by the Holy Ghost,&#8221; which are objectionable when taken in their obvious sense.&#8221; (19)[/FONT]


PRINCIPLES OF INTERPRETATION

A. WHEN TO INTERPRET LITERALLY, WHEN FIGURATIVELY

1. &#8220;When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.&#8221; 6
2. &#8220;It should be observed at the very outset that the purpose of figurative language is to impart some literal truth, which may more clearly be conveyed by the use of figures than in any other way.&#8221; 3
3. &#8220;The literal meaning of words must be retained, more in the historical books of Scripture than in those which are poetical.&#8221; 1
4. &#8220;The literal meaning of words is to be given up, if it be either improper, or involve an impossibility, or where words, properly taken, contain anything contrary to the doctrinal or moral precepts delivered in other parts of Scripture.&#8221; 1
5. &#8220;If the literal meaning makes good sense in its connections, it is literal; but if the literal meaning does not make good sense, it is figurative.&#8221; 5
6. &#8220;Since the literal is the most usual signification of a word, and therefore occurs much more frequently than the figurative, any term will be regarded as literal until there is good reason for a different understanding.&#8221; 5
7. &#8220;It is an old and oft-repeated hermeneutical principle that words should be understood in their literal sense unless such literal interpretation involves a manifest contradiction or absurdity.&#8221; 7

A. INTERPRETATION OF WORDS

1. In any passage the most simple sense &#8211; that which most readily suggests itself to an intelligent reader with competent knowledge &#8211; is usually the genuine sense or meaning.1
2. Determine what the word(s) meant to the persons who used the language or now use it, in the context of the subject under discussion in the context. 1
3. This meaning should be retained unless there is a clear reason for abandoning it. 1
4. When a word has several meanings, use the one that best suits the passage and that best suits the author, given his character, sentiments, situation, and circumstances. 1
5. General terms are used sometimes in their whole extent, & sometimes in a restricted sense. If the word is a general term, determine which way it is used by examining the scope, subject matter, context, and parallel passages. 1
6. An interpretation should not affirm nor deny more than the inspired penman affirmed or denied at the time they wrote. Don&#8217;t read into it more than what is there.1
7. Words of scripture must be taken in their common meaning, unless shown to be inconsistent
a) with other words in the sentence,
b)with the argument or context, or
c) with other parts of Scripture. 2
8. When words have more than one meaning, the one which was more obvious to the comprehension of the original readers is preferred. 2
a) allowing for modes of thought prevalent in their own day, and
b) for figurative expressions familiar to them. 2
9. The true meaning of any passage is not every sense which the words will bear, but that which is intended by the inspired writers, or by the Holy Spirit even though imperfectly understood by the writers themselves.2
10. Summary: words must be interpreted in the usual, natural, literal sense. 3


B. INTERPRETATION OF THE CONTEXT

1. Careful consideration of the preceding and subsequent parts will enable determination of whether it is literal or figurative. 1
2. A passage must not be connected with a remote passage unless the remote passage agrees better with it than a nearer passage. 1
3. Determine whether the writer is continuing the topic after the passage in question rather than assuming he is transitioning to another topic. He may be explaining the topic further. 1
4. No explanation must be admitted, but that which suits the context.
5. Where there is no connection with the preceding and subsequent part of a book, none should be sought. 1


C. INTERPRETATION OF HISTORICAL SETTING

1. The Word of God originated in a historical way, and therefore, can be understood only in the light of history.
2. A word is never fully understood until it is understood as it originated in the soul of the author.
3. It is impossible to interpret the author&#8217;s words correctly unless seen against the proper historical background.
4. The writings are naturally colored by
a) the place and time,
b) the circumstances, and
c) the prevailing view of the world and of life in general.
5. Get to know the author:
a) his parentage, character, temperament, intellect, religious characteristics, and circumstances of his life.
b) his purpose in writing
c) special circumstances surrounding the writing
6. Study the environment in which the writing originated.
7. Put yourself mentally into the 1st Century environment in which the author wrote, guarding against transferring the author into present day and making him speak present day language.


D. INTERPRETATION OF THE GRAMMAR

1. The authors of scripture used the current language of the country and time period. Their writings would not have otherwise been intelligible. 4
2. This part of interpretation cannot be done without knowledge of the original language. 3
3. The interpreter can assume that no sensible author will be knowingly inconsistent with himself, or seek to bewilder and mislead his readers. 4



1 Thomas Hartwell Horne, Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures.
2 Joseph Angus & Samuel G. Green, The Bible Hand-Book, p.180.
3 J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, p. 36.
4 Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics.
5Clinton Lockhart, Principles of Interpretation
6 David L. Cooper, The God of Israel
7 Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics
8 Charles Fritsch, &#8220;Biblical Typology,&#8221; Bibliotheca Sacra.
9 Charles L. Feinberg, Premillennialism or Amillennialism

There is no mention of looking at nature or asking the scientists. We will have to simply agree to disagree on this. But I believe my view is the more consistent and historically established view.

In Christ,
H.
 
Upvote 0

miamited

Ted
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi PG,

You wrote:

The theory that the earth is no more than about 10,000 years old is seen as ridiculous by a rapidly growing portion of young people today, and even if the theory of evolution (the theory that all plants and animals alive today evolved through the process of natural selection from a very simple, sub-cellular life form) should eventually be abandoned by every one of the few million scientists who believe it today, the Bible will still be seen to contradict the fact that the earth is, at the very least, hundreds of millions of years old. Therefore, our young people (not only our Christian young people) will continue to reject the Bible as a reliable source of truth.

I'm curious, have you ever read the Scriptures and sought the leading of God's Holy Spirit as your teacher or just as another well read work of man's writings that have come down over the centuries.


I ask because you seem to make claims that would deny any faith in what God's word tells us. Paul writes to Timothy:
Preachhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 the Word;http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-5 be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebukehttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 and encouragehttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-7--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-10

If I might ask. What exactly do you think that Paul is warning Timothy of here? What would you understand would be the nature of men's beliefs as time marches forward from the moment that Paul penned these words until Jesus returns?

Jesus told his disciples:
However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

Question, friend, if these words are the truth, what do you expect the condition of men's faith is going to be as we move closer to Jesus' return? Do you expect that there will be a whole legion of faithful, God-fearing people when Jesus steps out on the clouds?

Paul also wrote:

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-20 For this reason God sends themhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-21 a powerful delusionhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-22 so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-24

Question: What do you think is 'the lie'?

Question: What do you think is the 'powerful delusion'?

The account of the Revelation paints a picture of 'mighty armies' of all the nations that come to fight against Jesus and his reighteous ones in the last days. Do you think that there is even the slightest chance that 'christianity', let me be more specific, 'born again believers' will increase in the last days IF we, the present 'born again believers' try to make ourselves look less like 'intellectually challenged baboons' by believing what 'everybody else' believes?

You make your arguments with claims like, 'this is what modern theologians believe' or 'this is what present day sceintists believe'. Friend, I understand the point you are making, but I have to tell you that when I look in the mirror each morning and I ask myself, 'what does God want me to believe' and I go to the Scriptures, I find all kinds of 'evidence' that God honored Paul and what He believed; Daniel stood against an entire nation of people believing a different 'truth' than all of them believed and God honored him with one of the greatest prophecies of all the Scriptures. It was said of David by God himself that he was a man after God's own heart. Friend, I want to believe and I want to live as they lived. No, I'm not anywhere close yet, but it is what my heart strives for.

Finally, I want to believe what Jesus knew. Did Jesus know that his Father spoke all of this creation that he had been thrown into to be mocked and scorned and laughed at and beaten and tortured and whipped and ultimately die? Did Jesus know that his Father spoke it all and created it all in perfect compeletion is a matter of days. The Father that created for him a body of flesh from the womb of a woman who had never had sexual relations; the Father who parted an entire sea so that an army of people that were dear to Him could pass safely away from the Egyptian army; the Father who actually literally caused the sun to stand still in the sky for nearly a day; the Father who brought destruction upon all of His creation in a worldwide global flood; did Jesus know that his Father created all of this realm of life that he was being asked to suffer and die for in a matter of moments? What did Jesus know about the 'evolution' of this realm? What did Paul believe about the 'evolution' of this realm? I'm much more interested in what those who were really closer to God and who God entrusted to write His revelation to us thought about how we got here.

So, I will apologize in advance, and I am fully aware that in your estimation that makes me anti-intellectual, but I'm fairly well convinced that 'new and improved' isn't better when it comes to the faith that God asks of us.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
Upvote 0