Do bad Christians (that die without repentance) go to heaven?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Hi guys,

As an atheist, this has bothered me for quite some time. As far as my understanding of Christianity goes, anyone who is a Christian will go to heaven. That includes both good and bad Christians.

So, here's my question:

Let's say a Christian rapes and murders people his whole life and he dies without asking God for forgiveness. Will he go to heaven?

I reckon that according to Christianity he will go to heaven because even though he was a murderer and a rapist, he was still a Christian, and the very fact that he was a Christian will automatically land him a spot in heaven.

So, this Christian (who was a murderer and a rapist) will not get punished at all? He didn't even ask for God's forgiveness and still he's going to heaven without any sort of punishment. That's incredibly unfair.

Basically, that means- if you're a Christian, you have a free pass to do whatever you want. You can kill people; you can rape people; you can literally do what the hell ever you want. Why? Because, you're guaranteed a spot in heaven for simply being a Christian, so it doesn't matter what you do. You can live your life as a good person and go to heaven. Or, you can live your life as a bad person and still go to heaven.

Is that how it works or am I wrong somewhere?

Here's how it works to become truly saved. One repents and trusts in God through Christ for salvation.

Works are not necessary. However, the repentance must be genuine. If one goes on to live a life of murdering and raping then the repentance wasn't genuine. It is in that sense only that works are "necessary".

One must have turned towards a true desire for goodness rather than evil. Perhaps on one's deathbed, so no chance to show the repentance was genuine . . . but God is able to tell a genuine repentance from a fake one in such cases.

 

[crossnote]

I've heard these responses before- that a real Christian wouldn't kill and rape to begin with, and if a Christian does kill and rape then that person isn't really a proper Christian. But, there are plenty of people out there that actually believe in religion and still do things against their religion. Just because people do things against their religion, that doesn't mean they aren't a part of that religion anymore. In other words, it doesn't make them a non-believer or anything like that.

Two things.
I mentioned those that are born again will not DESIRE to do those things. That doesn't mean they can't have lapses back into their old nature.
The other is that the Christian faith is not a religion per se...a new set of do's and dont's but rather a supernatural transformation of one's nature. Our nature is changed from one who shies away from God's Word to one who embraces it with our whole heart as well as one who has the love of God shed abroad in our heart. (Rom 5:5)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi guys,

As an atheist, this has bothered me for quite some time. As far as my understanding of Christianity goes, anyone who is a Christian will go to heaven. That includes both good and bad Christians.

So, here's my question:

Let's say a Christian rapes and murders people his whole life and he dies without asking God for forgiveness. Will he go to heaven?

I reckon that according to Christianity he will go to heaven because even though he was a murderer and a rapist, he was still a Christian, and the very fact that he was a Christian will automatically land him a spot in heaven.

So, this Christian (who was a murderer and a rapist) will not get punished at all? He didn't even ask for God's forgiveness and still he's going to heaven without any sort of punishment. That's incredibly unfair.

Basically, that means- if you're a Christian, you have a free pass to do whatever you want. You can kill people; you can rape people; you can literally do what the hell ever you want. Why? Because, you're guaranteed a spot in heaven for simply being a Christian, so it doesn't matter what you do. You can live your life as a good person and go to heaven. Or, you can live your life as a bad person and still go to heaven.

Is that how it works or am I wrong somewhere?

Being a Christian isn't a guarantee that one is or will be saved. That is, being a member of the "tribe" as it will isn't what counts.

You'll get lots of different sorts of answers to this question so I'll only offer you my perspective, which is based upon my own Lutheran views:

We believe that salvation is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone. The tricky term there is "faith alone" which has often been misunderstood. Many think that "faith alone" is the same thing as "believe alone", that is "my beliefs are what save me"--that if we believe the right things we are saved. That's not what faith alone means, at least historically as understood by the Protestant Reformers or by Lutherans still today. Faith, here, is better understood as trust rather than "belief".

In Martin Luther's preface to St. Paul's letter to the Romans he offers his own understanding of what faith is,

"Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, "Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven." The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, "I believe." This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.

Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn't ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn't know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate."

The most important part here is what I emphasized in bold above, faith is a bold confidence--trust--in the grace of God. Also here Luther speaks of what faith does, even including that through faith "a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone" (and other similar statements) which naturally might lead us to ask: So then how is it that Christians sin though they have faith? This topic of what Lutherans speak of as being simul iustus et peccator (at once saint and sinner) is also addressed in Luther's preface. But so as to not get too bogged down in theological details it suffices to say that a basic answer here is this: The one who has faith, when they sin, repents. Faith is always coupled with repentance; the one who does not repent, who feels no remorse for their sin, and even takes pleasure and joy in their sin has no faith.

Because faith, here, is not the same as having particular beliefs; it is about trusting Christ, and the one who trusts Christ recognizes they are a sinner, and thus always confronted by the commandments of God realizing their own shortcomings in living rightly and justly toward their neighbor, and thus the need of repentance and to always set their gaze upon God's grace, and the hope that is found in Christ.

This is also how a Lutheran would understand the words of St. James that "even the demons believe, and tremble"--because saving faith isn't about having the right beliefs (even the devils believe) it's about a living, bold trust in God that is at work in us, by the power of the Holy Spirit, turning us toward God and toward our neighbor in love. When we fail (and we will fail) we recognize the mercy of God is there to call us forward and lift us up. Which is why it's not our works which save us (because we will regularly fail to abide in the good works which we are called to do, and cannot trust in them).

A person who, without repentance or remorse, lives their life raping, murdering, etc may have the "right beliefs" but that doesn't matter, they had no faith, they were in fact faithless, and on the day of judgment will have to stand before God, give an account, and they will likely find themselves to be among those to whom Christ says, "Away from Me, I never knew you."

For Lutherans these things are always about what we call the Law-Gospel Dialectic, about understanding that there is supposed to be a preaching of the Law which condemns our sin, but which can give us no hope or salvation; and that there is the preaching of the Gospel which is for our salvation, which creates faith. Removing one or the other, or confusing them, results in a perverse theology; either antinomianism (we can live however we like without consequence), legalism (I am righteous by my own moral efforts), leading to pride and/or despair. By rightly communicating Law and Gospel, without confusion, we preach against sin (the Law) and give comfort to sinners (the Gospel). Both are necessary because Christians are simul iustus et peccator, both saints and sinners; and we are called to drown the old man who is corrupt with sin and who opposes God and is selfish, and to feed the new man to be raised up in life with Christ, and toward godly obedience, and service of our neighbor. The old man is crushed under the weight of the Law, the new man is alive by the power of the Gospel, through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Daisybell]

Hi guys,
So, here's my question:
Let's say a Christian rapes and murders people his whole life and he dies without asking God for forgiveness. Will he go to heaven?...
So, this Christian (who was a murderer and a rapist) will not get punished at all? He didn't even ask for God's forgiveness and still he's going to heaven without any sort of punishment. That's incredibly unfair.

You are correct - That WOULD BE UNFAIR - BUT GOD IS NOT UNFAIR - so that is NOT the answer! The same way God WILL NOT allow a non-believer or someone who doesn't know Christ to perish in hell!

The answer is in your Bible... but most people overlook it or choose to remain with their traditional teaching of "heaven and hell". Have you ever gone to a very old cemetery (like civil war days and before that time?) Many tombstones have "resurrection" engraved on them. That is what your Bible teaches.
The Truth you probably never heard to really understand about death of unbelievers. A loving God does not allow them to burn in hell forever as many mainstream Christians teach or "Purgatory" (a condition of suffering and purification that leads to union with God in heaven) as the Catholics teach. Actually the answer IS about resurrections described in God's Word and taught by Jesus and His Disciples AND the Apostolic 1st Century Church.

The Apostle Paul wanted his readers to know the truth about the resurrection. "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13–15).

What Happens When You Die?
What does the Bible say about death? What are the 1st and 2nd resurrections mentioned in the Bible? What does it say about living after death? What happens to faithful, repentant Christians? What happens to those who lived bad lives during this life? Will they ever have a chance? The Bible actually has many clear passages that answer these questions.

What Happens After Death?
After you die, do you expect to “roll around heaven all day”? Or might you spend eternity burning in hellfire? Your Bible reveals awesome truth about the eternal purpose for which God created you and your loved ones.

What Happens When You Die?
One of the greatest mysteries in life is the question of death and the afterlife. What happens when you die? Will you go to heaven? Will you go to hell? Will you be reincarnated? Or is there no afterlife at all?

How Many Resurrections?
In the book of Revelation, we find that when Christ returns, Satan will be incarcerated and bound in the abyss for 1,000 years. When Christ returns, the faithful saints will be immortalized. "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4–6).

The first resurrection, as it is called, is for the saints—faithful Christians. But if there is a "first" resurrection, there is also a "second" resurrection. The Apostle Paul spoke about the order of resurrections, explaining that Jesus Christ is the "firstfruits"—the first to be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:20)—followed by those who are Christ’s (v. 23). After these come the "rest of the dead" mentioned in Revelation 20:5.
The "rest of the dead" are those who will come under judgment. They will be resurrected to physical life. But notice the good news concerning this judgment. After the Kingdom of God rules on this earth for a thousand years, there will be a great resurrection of billions of people to judgment. It is referred to as the White Throne Judgment. "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God [this is the second resurrection], and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books" (Revelation 20:11–12).
The Greek word for "books" is biblion. The books, or the Bible, are opened to the understanding of the masses of people for the first time. The resurrection to physical life from the valley of dry bones, described by the prophet Ezekiel, also takes place at this time. The Book of Life is finally opened to all of them. This will be their first opportunity to really learn the truth. This is not a second chance as some would like to call it. All human beings will be held accountable for their actions and thoughts. But this will be their first time for many to see their sins, to have the opportunity to repent of their sins, and to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Yes, there is hope for non-Christians. Most of them will wait in the grave until the White Throne Judgment and then have their first opportunity to learn the truth and God’s way of life.

Then, ultimately, will come the final punishment for those who have sealed their conscience and their character to reject the love of God and the sacrifice of Christ. These incorrigibly wicked will be burned in the lake of fire and totally destroyed. Their souls and bodies will be destroyed in Gehenna fire, as Jesus said.
The comforting news is that no human being who has ever lived and died is now suffering. Death is the absence of life. "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The dead experience no conscious passing of time, they know nothing. So, in the next split-second of their consciousness, they will awaken in the resurrection.
Jesus Christ said: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live" (John 11:25). Yes, there is life after death—our hope is the resurrection! To those who really respond to His calling, who really repent and are baptized and who are faithful to their Savior, Jesus Christ, God promises a glorious future in Tomorrow’s World!

 

[aiki]

Daisybell: This thread is from 2016. It is an old - and dead - thread.

 

[salt-n-light]

Hi guys,

As an atheist, this has bothered me for quite some time. As far as my understanding of Christianity goes, anyone who is a Christian will go to heaven. That includes both good and bad Christians.

So, here's my question:

Let's say a Christian rapes and murders people his whole life and he dies without asking God for forgiveness. Will he go to heaven?

I reckon that according to Christianity he will go to heaven because even though he was a murderer and a rapist, he was still a Christian, and the very fact that he was a Christian will automatically land him a spot in heaven.

So, this Christian (who was a murderer and a rapist) will not get punished at all? He didn't even ask for God's forgiveness and still he's going to heaven without any sort of punishment. That's incredibly unfair.

Basically, that means- if you're a Christian, you have a free pass to do whatever you want. You can kill people; you can rape people; you can literally do what the hell ever you want. Why? Because, you're guaranteed a spot in heaven for simply being a Christian, so it doesn't matter what you do. You can live your life as a good person and go to heaven. Or, you can live your life as a bad person and still go to heaven.

Is that how it works or am I wrong somewhere?

If he's raping and murdering, then he wasn't following Christ to begin with.