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Do atheists have any evidence to support their beliefs?

GrowingSmaller

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Right here the analogy fails. We have no way to know who, if anyone, is more dexterous in knowing about the supernatural. That's because despite all the claims to knowing about it, no one can seem to explain how to test that knowledge.
This is just science centric. An artefact of 20th century positivism and analytic philosophy. Said to be male centred, and biased towards "rationalistic" rather than emotional forms of knowing, a feminist might say.

Or they're having the exact same experiences as religious people only they're not confused into thinking that those experiences are evidence of a magical other-worldy realm.
True,but logically you cant rule our the fact that theyre not either. What that implies for the limits of scientism, Ill not state directly.

When your in the lab that is fine, but in Church or a Mosque, or even deciding if a new acquaintance is trustworthy, maybe not so much.

Why would you think you are, and how would we be able to test that assumption?
The whole paradigm of testing assumptions is science centred, and uses that paradigm for what some would argue are not its proper field. As Kant argued, I also believe "God" etc belong to the noumenal (hidden, unseen) so there well never be a direct test if that fact remains the same. So looking for a scientific test is, a priori a bad idea.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Does this same analogy hold true for all believers? Does the Muslim or the Hindu have this same "dextrous in knowing God"?
Well that's a tricky one, the best theoretic explanation I heard of comes from John Hick. There is something like the "Absolute in itself" which is noumenal and the "Absolute as it appears", within the faiths of the world there being subjective orientations towards God or the "Absolute truth".
 
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GrowingSmaller

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If secularism is so obviously the answer, I sometimes reflect, why don't they the secularists have so many "community centres" (akin to mosques, churches, meditation centres etc) often so beautifully decorated and with a half decent social life? I have socialised with humanists and they often meet in a pub or a cafe. Why the lack of social and cultural organisaiton? I dont want to be overly negative, but its a fact that remains unexplained.
 
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Ronald

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Just because many people believe something does not necessarily make it true. The only information you or anyone else has about your god, or Jesus, comes from the bible and I have read the bible and as far as I'm concerned the quickest path to atheism is to read that book.
It describes a god that is egotistical and a people killing jealous psychopath. Jesus, if he existed, is like a hippy type character with no visible means of support who travels about telling stories and presumably survives by living off the generosity of others. Then there is all the supernatural stuff attributed to Jesus, like raising the dead, himself coming back from death, walking on water and other such impossibilities.
Rejecting all that is not an abandonment of responsibility. As far as I'm concerned, to believe it the only thing I would be abandoning would be my sense of reason.
My rejection is the rejection of the very knowledge you say leaves me without excuse. The arrogance you display by telling people that they are without excuse simply because they don't believe as you do is just another reason to reject your belief.
And btw, I have no trouble in believing that trees exist. I even have a few in my garden.
So be it!
 
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Ronald

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If secularism is so obviously the answer, I sometimes reflect, why don't they the secularists have so many "community centres" (akin to mosques, churches, meditation centres etc) often so beautifully decorated and with a half decent social life? I have socialised with humanists and they often meet in a pub or a cafe. Why the lack of social and cultural organisaiton? I dont want to be overly negative, but its a fact that remains unexplained.
Could it be that they are lonely and introverts in person? They aren't shy online. Statistics show there are only 9- 10% of Americans and the world population who are atheists, so they only have a small chance of meeting someone who has the same world view. Obviously they have family and friends who believe in God, so they just don't advertise their atheist beliefs, and avoid discussing it face to face. You've heard the old saying that discourages people to discuss politics or religion because it might result in an argument.
There must be some Atheist conventions where they all meet and possibly join hands and sing, thanking nature and the sun for mutating into who they are. "We've come a long way from slime to humans, let us pray and give thanks to all the wonderful chemicals, water and energy that made this possible ... oh, let's not forget all that information -- wherever that came from, thank you!" :sorry:
My father was an atheist. He was a hard working man who kept to himself and didn't have friends because he didn't trust them nor did he have time for them. He was a good family man, loved his kids and strangely enough practiced the "golden rule". He taught us that, "Treat others as you want to be treated ..." He also was a man of integrity, patience, and self control. He was a gentle man. He used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything." And he lived by it, never heard him say a bad thing about anyone. I couldn't restrain myself - I was always somewhat insensitive, picking on people's weaknesses when I shouldn't have. But he always told us not to tell anyone that he was an atheist. His parents were Catholics and he had seven sisters who were as well. So he was basically silent about his views until we were adults, then he would discuss the Discovery Channel and what he learned about Evolution and disbelief in God, telling us the sad story about his father dying when he was ten and him getting on his knees and praying that it wouldn't happen -- God said no and from that time, he decided not to believe. Later on in his life my brother died as well and in his grief he said, "I believe in God even less now." He was depressed for years. That's true about secular people, they grieve harder and longer because they think that is all to life, when it's over, it's over and they will never see that person again. When his sisters died, one after another, he would always say, "I should have spent more time with her."
But what did that mean when he said I believe less? Maybe he had a little doubt in his position. Maybe there was a glimmer of hope still?
After I became a Christian, we had a talk about his beliefs. I asked him, "Where do you think the golden rule came from?" He thought civilization created it, we just evolved and came up with this principle. I said no, Jesus taught that, it came from Him. But it was as if he practiced Christianity without knowing it because he was brought that way but would never admit it. I gave him a 35 page editorial that I wrote refuting Evolution and then years later a book I wrote about basic Christianity. When he was 80, his wife caught him praying to God. This was in my book, I recommended that a person should begin with prayer before reading it, if they were going to take this seriously. He died at the age of 83 years old and I do believe he finally made his peace with God -- I'm looking forward to seeing him again.
 
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KCfromNC

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This is just science centric. An artefact of 20th century positivism and analytic philosophy. Said to be male centred, and biased towards "rationalistic" rather than emotional forms of knowing, a feminist might say.

I deeply feel this whole paragraph is completely wrong. Going to change your mind? Probably not, because everyone knows that feeling stuff isn't a great way to learn about external reality.

True,but logically you cant rule our the fact that theyre not either. What that implies for the limits of scientism, Ill not state directly.
If you can't be bothered with it, I certainly won't take it seriously.

When your in the lab that is fine, but in Church or a Mosque, or even deciding if a new acquaintance is trustworthy, maybe not so much.

Or maybe it is.

The whole paradigm of testing assumptions is science centred, and uses that paradigm for what some would argue are not its proper field.

Others would. That's the great thing about this sort of idle philosophical musing, though. Since there's no way to know everyone gets to be right .. if you ignore all the progress certain fields make while ignoring the complete failure of others. But I guess that's just the male-centric positivism talking. Must be the same part of me that likes running water, modern agriculture and the internet.

As Kant argued, I also believe "God" etc belong to the noumenal (hidden, unseen) so there well never be a direct test if that fact remains the same. So looking for a scientific test is, a priori a bad idea.

That's awfully convenient.
 
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KCfromNC

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If secularism is so obviously the answer, I sometimes reflect, why don't they the secularists have so many "community centres" (akin to mosques, churches, meditation centres etc) often so beautifully decorated and with a half decent social life?

If supernaturalism is so obviously the answer, why do they waste so much time and energy working in the natural world?

But in any case, if you have to ask why non-religous people don't build churches you might be working with a strawman.

have socialised with humanists and they often meet in a pub or a cafe. Why the lack of social and cultural organisaiton? I dont want to be overly negative, but its a fact that remains unexplained.

Secularism is the basis of modern western democracies, and those have some of the best standard of living anywhere on earth. What more do want?
 
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Belk

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Well that's a tricky one, the best theoretic explanation I heard of comes from John Hick. There is something like the "Absolute in itself" which is noumenal and the "Absolute as it appears", within the faiths of the world there being subjective orientations towards God or the "Absolute truth".

So your claim is that you manage to know the True thing while they see a shadow they misinterpret as god? Are you just lucky then?
 
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Par5

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Could it be that they are lonely and introverts in person? They aren't shy online. Statistics show there are only 9- 10% of Americans and the world population who are atheists, so they only have a small chance of meeting someone who has the same world view. Obviously they have family and friends who believe in God, so they just don't advertise their atheist beliefs, and avoid discussing it face to face. You've heard the old saying that discourages people to discuss politics or religion because it might result in an argument.
There must be some Atheist conventions where they all meet and possibly join hands and sing, thanking nature and the sun for mutating into who they are. "We've come a long way from slime to humans, let us pray and give thanks to all the wonderful chemicals, water and energy that made this possible ... oh, let's not forget all that information -- wherever that came from, thank you!" :sorry:
My father was an atheist. He was a hard working man who kept to himself and didn't have friends because he didn't trust them nor did he have time for them. He was a good family man, loved his kids and strangely enough practiced the "golden rule". He taught us that, "Treat others as you want to be treated ..." He also was a man of integrity, patience, and self control. He was a gentle man. He used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything." And he lived by it, never heard him say a bad thing about anyone. I couldn't restrain myself - I was always somewhat insensitive, picking on people's weaknesses when I shouldn't have. But he always told us not to tell anyone that he was an atheist. His parents were Catholics and he had seven sisters who were as well. So he was basically silent about his views until we were adults, then he would discuss the Discovery Channel and what he learned about Evolution and disbelief in God, telling us the sad story about his father dying when he was ten and him getting on his knees and praying that it wouldn't happen -- God said no and from that time, he decided not to believe. Later on in his life my brother died as well and in his grief he said, "I believe in God even less now." He was depressed for years. That's true about secular people, they grieve harder and longer because they think that is all to life, when it's over, it's over and they will never see that person again. When his sisters died, one after another, he would always say, "I should have spent more time with her."
But what did that mean when he said I believe less? Maybe he had a little doubt in his position. Maybe there was a glimmer of hope still?
After I became a Christian, we had a talk about his beliefs. I asked him, "Where do you think the golden rule came from?" He thought civilization created it, we just evolved and came up with this principle. I said no, Jesus taught that, it came from Him. But it was as if he practiced Christianity without knowing it because he was brought that way but would never admit it. I gave him a 35 page editorial that I wrote refuting Evolution and then years later a book I wrote about basic Christianity. When he was 80, his wife caught him praying to God. This was in my book, I recommended that a person should begin with prayer before reading it, if they were going to take this seriously. He died at the age of 83 years old and I do believe he finally made his peace with God -- I'm looking forward to seeing him again.
Christians make up just over 32% of the world's population with Catholics by far the largest in that group. Half of the world's Christians are Catholic. Islam is the second largest faith at just over 21% of the world population. It is also the fasted growing faith. The secular or non-religious make up 16% of the world's population.
My experience has shown me that many Christians who are not Catholic do not consider Catholics to be Christians and that their spiritual leader is, in fact, the anti-Christ. At least the Catholics sing from the same hymn sheet which is more than can be said for the remaining plethora of Christian sects, a very fragmented group, many claiming to have the truth and to be the only true Christians.
The fact is, that although Christianity is the largest faith, two-thirds of the world's population are not adherents of that faith, a faith that is also on the decline, especially in Europe.
I have to go now as I am meeting other members of the secular community at a local pub to drink the beer and break the pizza in remembrance of the blessed Authur Guinness from whom all good things flow!
 
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Ronald

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Christians make up just over 32% of the world's population with Catholics by far the largest in that group. Half of the world's Christians are Catholic. Islam is the second largest faith at just over 21% of the world population. It is also the fasted growing faith. The secular or non-religious make up 16% of the world's population.
My experience has shown me that many Christians who are not Catholic do not consider Catholics to be Christians and that their spiritual leader is, in fact, the anti-Christ. At least the Catholics sing from the same hymn sheet which is more than can be said for the remaining plethora of Christian sects, a very fragmented group, many claiming to have the truth and to be the only true Christians.
The fact is, that although Christianity is the largest faith, two-thirds of the world's population are not adherents of that faith, a faith that is also on the decline, especially in Europe.
I have to go now as I am meeting other members of the secular community at a local pub to drink the beer and break the pizza in remembrance of the blessed Authur Guinness from whom all good things flow!
Just don't drive while you are drunk and we will be thankful for that.
Happy New Year, it will be eventful, we may grow from 2.3 to 2.4 billion Christians before He returns to judge the rest.
 
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Allandavid

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Could it be that they are lonely and introverts in person? They aren't shy online. Statistics show there are only 9- 10% of Americans and the world population who are atheists, so they only have a small chance of meeting someone who has the same world view. Obviously they have family and friends who believe in God, so they just don't advertise their atheist beliefs, and avoid discussing it face to face. You've heard the old saying that discourages people to discuss politics or religion because it might result in an argument.
There must be some Atheist conventions where they all meet and possibly join hands and sing, thanking nature and the sun for mutating into who they are. "We've come a long way from slime to humans, let us pray and give thanks to all the wonderful chemicals, water and energy that made this possible ... oh, let's not forget all that information -- wherever that came from, thank you!" :sorry:
My father was an atheist. He was a hard working man who kept to himself and didn't have friends because he didn't trust them nor did he have time for them. He was a good family man, loved his kids and strangely enough practiced the "golden rule". He taught us that, "Treat others as you want to be treated ..." He also was a man of integrity, patience, and self control. He was a gentle man. He used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything." And he lived by it, never heard him say a bad thing about anyone. I couldn't restrain myself - I was always somewhat insensitive, picking on people's weaknesses when I shouldn't have. But he always told us not to tell anyone that he was an atheist. His parents were Catholics and he had seven sisters who were as well. So he was basically silent about his views until we were adults, then he would discuss the Discovery Channel and what he learned about Evolution and disbelief in God, telling us the sad story about his father dying when he was ten and him getting on his knees and praying that it wouldn't happen -- God said no and from that time, he decided not to believe. Later on in his life my brother died as well and in his grief he said, "I believe in God even less now." He was depressed for years. That's true about secular people, they grieve harder and longer because they think that is all to life, when it's over, it's over and they will never see that person again. When his sisters died, one after another, he would always say, "I should have spent more time with her."
But what did that mean when he said I believe less? Maybe he had a little doubt in his position. Maybe there was a glimmer of hope still?
After I became a Christian, we had a talk about his beliefs. I asked him, "Where do you think the golden rule came from?" He thought civilization created it, we just evolved and came up with this principle. I said no, Jesus taught that, it came from Him. But it was as if he practiced Christianity without knowing it because he was brought that way but would never admit it. I gave him a 35 page editorial that I wrote refuting Evolution and then years later a book I wrote about basic Christianity. When he was 80, his wife caught him praying to God. This was in my book, I recommended that a person should begin with prayer before reading it, if they were going to take this seriously. He died at the age of 83 years old and I do believe he finally made his peace with God -- I'm looking forward to seeing him again.

I cannot know if the claims you make about your father are true or concocted, but you are most certainly wrong about the ‘golden rule’. It’s inception well predates Christianity...try researching the Code of Hammurabi....
 
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Eudaimonist

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Just admit that you have a knowledge of God (the God of the Bible) and choose not to accept it, in other words, you disbelieve that God exists.

A more accurate way of phrasing that is that I have at least some knowledge of what human beings have claimed about various sorts of gods, including the Christian God. Since I find none of those claims persuasive, I lack belief in such deities.

You are without excuse, given what has been revealed to you, visible and invisible in life, attributes of God, his fingerprints are all over the place.

That is your belief, not mine. I have no reason to think that God's "fingerprints" are anywhere at all. What has been "revealed" to me through reason and evidence is the existence of a natural universe. That's it.

God is love, might as well deny that exists.

I don't see why I should conflate the two.

Whatever is good comes from God, you just don't believe it.

What is good comes from a human being's relationship to the natural universe, you just don't believe it.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Kylie

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Atheism seems to lack evidence more than Christianity does. Christians have the historical gospel to point towards their truths. What do atheists have other than a blind faith that they are right? Is such blind faith morally similar to Christianity but with less evidence in support of it?

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God.

I base my atheism on the fact that I have seen no reliable arguments or evidence to support the existence of God, and the default position is that there is no God (just as the default position is that there are no Smurfs).
 
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Par5

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Just don't drive while you are drunk and we will be thankful for that.
Happy New Year, it will be eventful, we may grow from 2.3 to 2.4 billion Christians before He returns to judge the rest.
I never drink and drive and as only an occasional drinker of alcohol, getting drunk is not something I do.
You claim the golden rule comes from Jesus, well I hate to burst your bubble, but many religions and cultures claim ownership of the golden rule. Confucius was around 550 years before Jesus and the golden rule was one of his many sayings.
Whenever "He" returns I reckon "He" will have his hand full judging the Christians leaving him little time to judge the rest of us jolly old evil atheists. You never know, he might just think that his own followers are so messed up that he decides to give the rest of us a free pass. What do you think?
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Could it be that they are lonely and introverts in person? They aren't shy online. Statistics show there are only 9- 10% of Americans and the world population who are atheists, so they only have a small chance of meeting someone who has the same world view. Obviously they have family and friends who believe in God, so they just don't advertise their atheist beliefs, and avoid discussing it face to face. You've heard the old saying that discourages people to discuss politics or religion because it might result in an argument.
There must be some Atheist conventions where they all meet and possibly join hands and sing, thanking nature and the sun for mutating into who they are. "We've come a long way from slime to humans, let us pray and give thanks to all the wonderful chemicals, water and energy that made this possible ... oh, let's not forget all that information -- wherever that came from, thank you!" :sorry:
My father was an atheist. He was a hard working man who kept to himself and didn't have friends because he didn't trust them nor did he have time for them. He was a good family man, loved his kids and strangely enough practiced the "golden rule". He taught us that, "Treat others as you want to be treated ..." He also was a man of integrity, patience, and self control. He was a gentle man. He used to say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything." And he lived by it, never heard him say a bad thing about anyone. I couldn't restrain myself - I was always somewhat insensitive, picking on people's weaknesses when I shouldn't have. But he always told us not to tell anyone that he was an atheist. His parents were Catholics and he had seven sisters who were as well. So he was basically silent about his views until we were adults, then he would discuss the Discovery Channel and what he learned about Evolution and disbelief in God, telling us the sad story about his father dying when he was ten and him getting on his knees and praying that it wouldn't happen -- God said no and from that time, he decided not to believe. Later on in his life my brother died as well and in his grief he said, "I believe in God even less now." He was depressed for years. That's true about secular people, they grieve harder and longer because they think that is all to life, when it's over, it's over and they will never see that person again. When his sisters died, one after another, he would always say, "I should have spent more time with her."
But what did that mean when he said I believe less? Maybe he had a little doubt in his position. Maybe there was a glimmer of hope still?
After I became a Christian, we had a talk about his beliefs. I asked him, "Where do you think the golden rule came from?" He thought civilization created it, we just evolved and came up with this principle. I said no, Jesus taught that, it came from Him. But it was as if he practiced Christianity without knowing it because he was brought that way but would never admit it. I gave him a 35 page editorial that I wrote refuting Evolution and then years later a book I wrote about basic Christianity. When he was 80, his wife caught him praying to God. This was in my book, I recommended that a person should begin with prayer before reading it, if they were going to take this seriously. He died at the age of 83 years old and I do believe he finally made his peace with God -- I'm looking forward to seeing him again.
Lovely writing reminds me a bit of John Steinbeck.
 
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